Thursday, July 2, 2009

Creating the Lubavitcher Talmid Chochem



Lubavitchers
like to think of themselves as equal. They're all equal. No head table at events - most of the time. Rosh Yeshivos are often called by their first names and a Rosh Yeshivah will often just let it go. A friend who meets a former chavruseh of his who's now a famous mashpia or the rov of Bnei Beraq would still call him Leibel or Yossel or Mayshe. At the Rebbe's farbrengen it didn't matter if you were 90 years old, you'd often have to fight for a vantage point or a seat if you didn't have one reserved. You also don't get many accolades for doing what you're supposed to; meaning a bachur in yeshivah who learns the whole mesechta baal peh won't be called the best bachur in yeshivah and won't be groomed to be the next "Reb Akive Eiger." The same goes for yeshivos; there are better and not such good yeshivos, but there is no Yeshivah LeMetzuyonim. In other words - not to chew your eyes and ears off - it's a pretty much classless society. Which is why a recent ba'al tshuveh has no problem and getting up and darshening his boych s'vores in 770 or in public, because he too wears a hat and kapote and beard, so he's no different than anybody else... Actually the latter is an outcome more of Meshichism than of genuine Chabad, but you might say that was the nesinas mokem. ?קלאר

I'm getting off the point here. With bachurim often involved with mivtzoyim and shlichus at an early age - despite it not being b'zman sidrei haYeshivah - the chashivus of full-time learning often gets lost. Add to that the fact that many of the finer yungeleit go on shlichus and are often left teaching young kids or beginner adults and what you have is a gap that needs to be filled. Kolel is meant to last one year, maybe two. There are those that stay longer, but they're the exception. Most that are shayech to learning and don't go on shlichus go into chinuch. The main emphasis - as the Rebbe wanted - is placed on going on shlichus, meaning that every bachur yearns for that one he's married and past Kolel. It's gotten to the point that much good talent - bachurim that are really shayech to learning - are "wasted" on shlichus since they're being utilized to the fullest potential. It seems like somebody has begun to take notice, surprise, surprise, and has decided to step out of the box and do something about it. I say "out of the box" and I mean today's Chabad "box." After all, we do each have our own boxes, don't we?




Having said that, a blurb on the website "shturem" today caused somewhat of a ruckus. According to the story, and take it at face value, there is to be a Yeshivah for מצויינים founded somewhere in Europe next year. It will be a breeding ground for the next generation of Rabbonim and Rosh Yeshivah in Chabad. 14 precious bochurim will be allowed entry after a careful selection process. It doesn't sound like a very Lubavitcher idea to some, them being more equal and stuff, but I think it's a good one, considering the times we're in, and considering it's 15 years "since Gimmel Tammuz." Yes, Lubavitch is all about love and inclusion, and yes, every Jewish child - no matter his background - deserves an education similar to the average kids, but why can't there a level dedicated to those who show exceptional talent and skills? Why must we keep those who are capable of accomplishing more down with the average kids? Nobody is going to do away with the regular Yeshivah setting, rest assured of that. Mrs. Doe, your Zalmy and Mendy will get to go to Melbourne or Sydney or Kfar Chabad when he finishes Oholei Torah "zal" just like his older brothers did.

All we're asking for is that there be who to teach your sons. That there be Roshei Yeshivah in the caliber of Reb Yisroel Friedman and the brothers Kalmanson for the next generation. The way it's going now, with almost every available talent going out to teach beginners, it doesn't seem like it'll happen - al pi derech haTeva, anyway. This seems to be a private venture. Some rich man with money was convinced of the need for such a misgeres and will fund it completely, so they say. And as far as the asinine comments on Shturem complaining that trying to raise lomdim is a "misnagdishe, Litvishe" idea; all I can say is PUH-LEEZ. If you in your right mind that the biggest nachas the Rebbe could have was for a Gaon Olam in the tradition of Leibel Kaplan a"h teaching Aleph Beis to a child and then learning Gemoroh בעיון on his own late into the night, then you don't know the first thing about "unzer heilige Rebbe." For a yungerman of below-average intelligence to do it is kain kuntz nit. For a shliach who only learns Chumash Rashi to teach that to his class is מהיכי תיתי, The Rebbe wants "bacon," not "eggs," if you remember the story of the hen and the dovor achar walking along the street, and the only way to do that is to be something first and then avek gebben fun zich later.



I realize now that I sort of went off the point by first saying that it would create Roshei Yeshivah, and then saying it would create Lomdishe shluchim. Oh well, efsher lekayem shnayhem.

50 comments:

OT Bochur said...

Nebech, Tzig. You're completely out of touch with what's going on in Lubavitch. A perfect example is your assumption that Shlichus to Sydney is up there with Melbourne. If only! It's actually currently the worst Shlichus OT has to offer.

Anyway, obviously such a misguided attempt as sketchily described on Shturem has all the ingredients for complete disaster and will meet the fate of the "Yeshiva for Metzuyanim" d'Lakewood.

I won't go on because you're so utterly krum in your assumptions and observations, that to correct them would necessarily involve unscrewing your head and other extreme measures, a side effect of which would be the sudden mysterious vanishing of your narishe blog.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

TYPICAL FERDISHE BACHUR OF OUR TIMES.

Takes a 4 paragraph post, farleigt zich one one word, Sydney, and builds gantzene binyonim on that.

Nebach Unz

OT Bochur said...

The Complete Guide To Tzigian Logic

Assumption 1) "Ferdishe Bochurim" exist.

Assumption 2) Hirshel Tzig can isolate "typical comments" authored by "Ferdishe Bochurim".

Assumption 3) "Ferdishe Bochurim" typically, for lack of what to say, just farleig zich on "one word".

Assumption 4) "Ferdishe Bochurim" typically, build gantzene binyanim on said "one word".

Assumtion 5) Assuming all of the above, Nebech unz.

Funny thing; that was indistinguishable from what you wrote in those "4 paragraphs".

OT Bochur said...

Oh, and here is some wonderful leins material to keep you occupied.

I'm certain you'll love it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ahh, another typical ferdishe response. That somehow I became a ChazonIsh'nik too.

Kremenchuger said...

Was it not the Rebbe that said "Ah bucher vas lernt in Tomchei Temimim un ken nit Shagaas Aryeh fun vu mir fregt eim, Farshemt der Alter Rebbe un der Mitteler Rebbe un....."

moshe shmeel said...

I hope it will be matzliach
the maaleh of lubavitch is that everybody has a tachlis but of course not everybody has to be either ben teyrah or shliach
rather "lfum gamla shuchna"

Snag Jr. said...

loyb der Bashfer that there are some Lubavitchers that are not soney Hashem. good pr

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
"You also don't get many accolades for doing what you're supposed to; meaning a bachur in yeshivah who learns the whole mesechta baal peh won't be called the best bachur in yeshivah and won't be groomed to be the next "Reb Akiva Eiger"

My grandfather used to quote me constantly his Rebbe a famous rov and Rosh yeshiva in a big town in Hungary, that you get no credit for being a bochur a masmid and Yerie shomaim since this is the norm, you get credit for being a good Baal tefila,nice handwriting etc.. so it is not exactly the chabad way but from a different angle.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

(In Two Parts. 1)

All systems have their way of prioritizing and creating a pecking order on the totem pole they idealize and idolize.

In the Litvish yeshiva world in America the vast minority of talmidim actually devote their lives to full time learning once they get married to eventually become either Toraso Umnaso types or Klei Kodesh like Roshei Yeshiva, Rebbeim in yeshivos and Jewish Day Schools, Rabbonim in chinuch, the rabbonus and kiruv.

The selection process begins already in mesivta high school as the tracks ahead of them become clear. In this system, going out to serve the klal is not encouraged, it's only about "lernen" and it is mainly only by default and happenstance that the miut shebemiut drops into various job slots in the world of chinuch and the rabbonus etc.

The point being that the vast, vast majority eventually become balebatim, and this is what the system actually desires, and the roshei yeshiva actually prfer to have an army of askonim and balebatim who will be the so-called zevuluns who will finance the kollels and major yeshivas and the ever-growing need for salaries, often as family appointed members of the hanhalas get all the plum jobs inside the mosdos.

In this system, the attitude conveyed from the top is that "we ONLY need you as cash cows" more than anything else.

Yeah, sure, getting a job in chinuch out-of-town or in an out-of-town mini-kollel or in kiruv is nice, while almost no sons and daughters (who marry kollel guys) of major rosh yeshivas and of top Magidei Shiur ever go this route, but what counts for the masses of the hamon am is to make sure that they become machers in real estate, catering, the stock market, computers, the medical industry, or professions, and we will "love you" for it while the poor shnooks who chose to go into chinuch, kiruv and rabbonus, and may have left behind their families and travelled thousands of miles for idealistic reasons to live in fardorbenne insular communities where a frum person is still viewed as a freak, (when not giving a good shiur or counseling a broken and needy soul in need [lots of those for sure] to all hours, then they become "angels of rescue" from G-d Himself) and it is these Litvish Yeshivishe educated klei kodesh in chinuch, the rabbonus and kiruv all over, WHO ARE STILL VERY ATTACHED TO THEIR YESHIVAS who nevertheless become the hostages and nebachs of the entire system to be pushed around and discarded like scrap when they are any way viewed as a burden or challnge to the Yeshivishe machine...

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

(In Two Parts. 2.)

It is all rather very tragice in the end to watch, let alone to actually experience or to have a family member who has chosen this path and is going through this ordeal together with their spouse and children.

So the non-Chabad Yeshvishe velt has its own very serious problems as to the fate of its professional rabbinic alumni that are far from pretty for which no real "cure" exists short of returning to live like a normal mentsch in a respectable Torah community.

The Yeshivish velt has its own tragic way of brutally casting good idealistic people aside while it panders to the often VERY stupid balebatim, and if you have met these plentiful zombie-like types.

Yeah, many of them go to Daf Yomis and even maybe give them, but somehow they all look like defeated and deflated zombies going thru the motions when they are at it. If anyone has ever seen this, it's pathetic to watch, like having a compulsory shave every day, they are REALLY stupid oxen emotionally and intellectually who cannot talk or think about anything except how much money they made or lost today or yesterday or hope to make tomorrow, who never bothered to go anywhere (besides upstate New York) and do anything (besides waking up every day like prisoners of life) except to figure out the art of making oodles and oodles of money and getting the Roshei Yeshiva and Shtiebel Rebbelach, some even have access to bigger Rebbes whom they give pidoynes to as if they were worshipping Mamon itself, who then in turn run after them like bees to the honey!

Something to think about as Tisha Be'Av and the reasons for the ongoing Churban Bais HaMikdosh and our ongoing golus looms.

Snag Jr. said...

"In this system, the attitude conveyed from the top is that "we ONLY need you as cash cows" more than anything else."

Not in your alma matter. there the cash cows' family get most of the new shteles, except for motty-but they are all gonna go after 120 when he will probably fly in again and move permanently to Oceon pkwy the whole year-hollywah can't prover, the recent shaleh shudes was a disaster ligabey proveray- a dead mossod....

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Quote: "there the cash cows' family get most of the new shteles,"

Not quite, plenty of others get shtelles, and usually they have lots of brains, but they have to be PAID because they have bills and mortgages like the rest of the respectable human race.

The ones you refer to, starting with RAF, are not "the cash cows" it's Fort Knox, and it's not the norm, they are the exceptions and they should be commended for injecting their personal fortune to make up for the deficits caused by others in many places!

But way before that madreigah, the "cash cows" in the yeshivishe world are those that have nothing to do with shtelles or what makes the mosdos tick, their "job" (good pun) is ach verak to cough up maximum amounts of dough at many junctures, such at dinners, letter appeals, more dinners, parlor meetings and what have you, no matter what cities they live in, the theme is always "shik asach gelt!"

Snag Jr. said...

'plenty of others', you are way behind the news, there is 3/1 in favor of cash cow.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"there is 3/1 in favor of cash cow."

Not as I count them and know them to be.

I am up-to-date as the next guy.

Seems you don't know math either, besides what's the real point you are trying to make besides meaningless one-liners that go nowhere?

Hyman said...

Tzig profoundly stated"...(in Chabad) the chashivus of full-time learning often gets lost."

You must be talking about the wrong Chasidus pal. Ask around no-one in the frum community would ever, EVER, make such an outrageous unheard of statemant.

Chaim Berlin Success Story said...

Tragedy

Do you know about any of the appointees in the last five years? it might even be more than three to one

Anonymous said...

One haoro:
Systems never created gedolim. Such people emerged on their own, albeit with careful private guidance and instruction.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
"ביטא הרבי את הדרישה לרכוש ידיעות רבות בש"ס. למשל (ספר 'אשכילה בדרך תמים', תשמ"ג עמ' 150): "בחור שעדיין יש מסכתות שלמות שלא למד... מה חסר לו בעבודתו – מקומות הקדושים?!...".

"צריכים פשוט (כלשון העולם) "שטייגען אין לערנען" [=לשגשג (להתעלות) בלימוד התורה]" – הורה הרבי לבחור, ביחידות שהתקיימה ביום ה' במרחשוון תשי"א ('ימי בראשית' עמ' 286).
its aint so simple the Rebbe wanted talmidie chachomim

Anonymous said...

Let us call a spade a spade....

Lubavich look down on serious learning because "that is what the snags and misnagdim pride themselves on". Unfortunately the inability to learn shows that you have been doing shlichus and mivtzoiy...so it is praised.....all based on Igros Kodesh and Sichas from Purim 5743 or Hey Teves 5722 etc....

In Chabad all lomdei torah are all branded as baal gayves, or zombie followers of Rav Shach who have never seen the light of Chabad, and are working towards a big pay cheque in olam habo...not by any chance for kvod shomayim or to give the aybishter nachas ruach (no not the Rebbe shlita)

Get real....chabad is good but not better than anyone else....and this spin started two hundred years ago...not in the 'Dor Shvii'

Chabad could learn a lot from other yidden.....(and vice versa)

Anonymous said...

Let us call a spade a spade....

Lubavich look down on serious learning because "that is what the snags and misnagdim pride themselves on". Unfortunately the inability to learn shows that you have been doing shlichus and mivtzoiy...so it is praised.....all based on Igros Kodesh and Sichas from Purim 5743 or Hey Teves 5722 etc....

In Chabad all lomdei torah are all branded as baal gayves, or zombie followers of Rav Shach who have never seen the light of Chabad, and are working towards a big pay cheque in olam habo...not by any chance for kvod shomayim or to give the aybishter nachas ruach (no not the Rebbe shlita)

Get real....chabad is good but not better than anyone else....and this spin started two hundred years ago...not in the 'Dor Shvii'

Chabad could learn a lot from other yidden.....(and vice versa)

Anonymous said...

Its amazing as chabad has to fight for the Essence of yidishkiet/chassidus,
example # 1) Mihu Yehidi the stem of halachic direction of Keneses Yisroel the Rebbe fought a unpopular war created alot of yedidim into enemies, today everyone even the Yated reliazes the depth of this churban. eventualy they will say that maran of all marans fought for that law, as they shamelessly said after the Sadam scud missile that maran said that its going to be nissim,even he acted like a novi sheker with a grim prophecy.
Example #2 If you learn the seforim of the early besht era, you see alot of anti lomdim bashing, for their Giava,look in the seforim of the Baal Toldos, you will see lots of anti lomdim, and again chabad keeps on the flame.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"Chaim Berlin Success Story said... Tragedy Do you know about any of the appointees in the last five years? it might even be more than three to one"

You know, and you are probably one of them since you are a "success story", right? ;-)

Methinks this dialogue is getting to be absurd.

If you like, go count magidei shiur and staff and all employees and all those who are rebbeim and give shiurim or chaburos in the kollel, bais medrash, mesivta, middle school, yeshiva ketana elementary division, the nursery school, and at both Summer camps (the one in the city and the mountains) as well as all office staff, then come back and report to us the real statistics.

Most of the real gevirim did not have sons who could take on being rebbeim nor would they be taken on. There is far more appreciation and hiring on merit when the candidates are absolute metzuyanim and there are plenty of those to fill all the coveted jobs without having to come on to patronage.

But that is not my point, which is that as as far as ALL Litvishe yeshivishe mosdos are concerned, the vast bulk of talmidim are NOT encouraged to go into any special field related to being a klei kodesh, in fact idealism and wanting to "tu oif" for the klal are laughed at and discouraged for and by the Yeshvishe hamon am as silly and childish delusions worthy of ridicule and not praise and certainly no real training at all, but the entire enterprise is designed to (literally) sheperd the unquestioning flocks of the student bodies into becoming unquestioning balebatim who will slave in the salt mines and quaries of Wall Street (hopefully, if not, open a catering business or become a plumber or roofer) in order to make ach verak lots and lots of money and in turn these fine shepselach will turn into valuable big fat cash cows (the bigger and the fatter the better) like unthinking beheimas bli da'as, chewing raw matrialism and turning it real time wealth. This is the essence of Yiddishkeit and what's considered to be "importnat" in the Litvishe Yeshiva world in America.

That's my only point.

Stop chaning the subject into another one that has to do with who gets appointed to be in the hanholas and staffs of yeshivas, there isn't more patronage or nepotism there than there is any any family run businesses, which is natural and to be expected because there is no absolute meritocracy anywhere on Earth, only degrees of protektzia and corruption, which is not what I am dealing with at this time! Please halt kop, success story...

Friendly Anonymous said...

I've seen adds for Gutnik's smicha program in Melbourne which seem to have the same goal. Does anyone know how successful that has been?

Anonymous said...

CBT

You are taking a real torah concept of hachzokas torah of the laymen to support the ben torah into a class warfare issue, the Torah is not democratic. even the secular world of acdemia is also surviving on the back of the rich almuni, so what are you aiming for, to change nature?.

the champ said...

Alljewishlyrics.blogspot.com

ULY bochur said...

the champ:

thank you for proving the point made by Tzig. I see you have lots of time on your hands....

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Well, I'm glad it's happening. There should be a yeshiva geared to bochurim who want a higher level.

Editor said...

Money Quote:
"The Rebbe wants bacon".

Beg to differ on lomdim going on shlichus is a waste.
Helevai all shluchim lomdim.

מענדל said...

הירשעלע
איך האב מורא אז דו האסט פארקראכן. ווען איך זע אזא מעשה פרעג איך איין זאך, וואס וואלט דער רבי ענטפערן ווען איך שרייב אריין אזא צעטל? בא מיר לייגט זיך בפשטות אז ווען מ'פרעגט ביים רבי'ן וועגן מאכן א ישיבה למצוינים וואלט מען געחאפט איבערן קאפ. דאס וואס דו טענה'סט אז די מוכשרים פארן אויף שליחות און לערנען ניט מער, איז שתי תשובות לדבר. א) עפן אויף א הערות וביאורים וועסטו זען אז לאו דוקא. פארשטייסט דאך אליין אז אויף יעדער וואס שרייבט איז דא דריי וואס שרייבן ניט. והב) יעצט איז אסאך שווערער פארן אויף שליחות און אסאך מער ווערן ר"מים וכדו'

ולעצם הענין מ'דארף זען אז אין די ישיבות זאל מען לייגן א קאך אין לערנען וכמדומני אז אין די בעסערע ישיבות איז טאקע אזוי.

מענדל

Leroy said...

It would be good for Chabad to have some intellectuals from within. One does not have to jump to what Rav Dessler says i Michtav M'Eliyahu about the whole system existing to produce a gadol at the expense of the rest.
In Chabad today, gezhe yichus, money and money comes before brains in terms of who is more equal than the rest.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ר' מענדל
איך גלייב אז די הצעה פון מאכען אזא ישיבה קומט דוקא פון די ראשי ישיבה! כ'גלייב אז דוקא זעהן אז ס'נייטיגט זיך אין אזא מקום מיוחד

און דאס וואס איר זאגט אז די רבי וואלט ניט מסכים געווען צו אזא ישיבה, איז דאס דארף מען פרעגן ביים רבי'ן אליין
......

Anonymous said...

This yeshivah seems like another one of Garelick's silly "plans". He had a kollel that was supposed to do the same.

There are quite a few younger chevra of high caliber around. You may not know them, they may not be on the web, but believe it or not, they exist

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

They may be out there, but are they producing?! are they in the position to accomplish?!

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"Anonymous said...CBT You are taking a real torah concept of hachzokas torah of the laymen to support the ben torah"

You are approacing this back to front. Of course genuine, sincere and caring laymen should support Torah in all its ways, but since when is it the job of the Torah institutions to have an entire system devoted to creating in Frankenstein-like fashion balebatim for the only purpose to support itself?

Somewhat like bees who have one queen bee (the resident "gadol") with a few male drones (upper echelon maggidei shiur whose only purpose is to keep the queen bee fertile and when they have done their bit they are tossed out the hive since they will never be at the head) and then you have the thousands of "worker bees" who labor mindlessly without any honors like "ferd" until they drop dead to service the queen bee and bring in the pollen that will make the honey-money. Is that what Yiddishlkeit is supposed to look like? Like a slave colony to serve one megalomaniacal queen bee? Lo meduvshach velo meuktzach!

Sorry, there is more to Yiddishkeit than just becoming a cash cow like a worker bee mindlessly producing honey money. There is a greater world out there. Merubbim heim tzorchei amcha! Not just the secular masses of Jews who need kiruv suffer, but the very oilem in the Litvishe yeshivas themselves suffer because there is little genuine idealism and excitement with the Torah they toil in. It's all just become a grind with bochurim marking time and marching in place as perhaps the best of them are taught learning skills to keep up with a daf yomi, but life is boring, lacking lebedikeit and a genuine bren about the beauty of the Torah and Yiddishkeit, the system is ending out the signal: "Don't get any wild ideas. Don't rock the boat. You are never going to make it as a rosh yeshiva so you may as well make peace with the fact that you should be happy to be alive, get a nice wife and become a breadwinner not just for your children but also for a system that needs cash cows and not enthusiasts with ideas of maybe there is a higher calling in life than just being a 9 to 5 commuter on the NYC subways."

How come when one travles far and wide all over the world wherever Jews live it is usually a Lubavaitcher Shaliach and his equally inspired wife who are there for you? Why is there such a clash between Chabad and the Yeshivisha world on this? Why does it have to be this way? Why can't they learn from each other? Why can't the Yeshivisha velt learn from Chabad's idealism and why can't Chabad produce even bigger Talmidei chachomim? Some pople do manage to do this but they are very few and far between.

"into a class warfare issue,"

What "class warfare"? What are you afraid of discussing, this is the year 2009.

"the Torah is not democratic."

Baloney! The Torah taught the world the rules of democracy and much more.

"even the secular world of acdemia is also surviving on the back of the rich almuni,"

Who said anything about "rich alumni"? Torah Jews do NOT learn from the secular world, they are supposed to be the ohr lagoyim. What don't I get?

"so what are you aiming for, to change nature?."

What "nature"? Jews by tradition are never happy with the status quo. This discussion started, if you haven't noticed, about what to do about Lubavitcher chinuch and I thought it was important to compare that with Litvish yeshvisha chinuch in America. While Lubavicth has lots of idealism it may perhaps lack higher standards, and while the yesvisha velt lacks idealism it does often have higher standards. They can each learn from each other. That's all I was suggesting. Not "changing" nature but learning from each other.

Friendly Anonymous said...

You must have been at the same strategy session as Shmuley. From his blog:

Here are the foremost issues that Chabad should commit to improving on this milestone occasion.
1. Shore up its educational institutions.

As its name implies, Chabad is an intellectual organization emphasizing wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. From that deep understanding of G-d, Judaism, and the Torah flows the passionate action that is Chabad’s hallmark. Weaken the educational institutions and you weaken Chabad. Speak to Lubavitch parents and you will hear constant complaints about eroding educational standards and bochurim in Yeshivas who spend nearly as much time flying around the world to do mivtzoim as they do studying. The inadequacy of the Chabad educational institutions is perhaps best evidenced by the growth in ready-made sermons and lectures being sold to Shluchim the world over, which presupposes that the average Shliach has not learned enough in his Yeshiva years to be capable of offering original thoughts on his own. And if you’re a Chabad parent who wants a solid secular education for your son in High School you are given, at best, two to three choices, in New York, Pittsburgh and Los Angeles, all bursting at the seams and almost incapable of taking in new students.

avakesh said...

One source of talent is misnagdishe bochurim or avreikhim who got a Torah only centered chinuch and who later joined Lubavitach. Not many of those lately but quite a few from the decades past.

chanie said...

I like. Someone around here shares my way of thinking (besides Yoni, of course).

I like a lot.
I think I'm linking. (Because of the name of the blog, I never bothered looking before....)

chanie said...

And avakesh- that's not nearly enough. And besides, those will always be looked upon as "litvaks" in Chabad.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

link to where? do you have a blog too?

chanie said...

Ah, I forgot that I unshared my profile, lol.

chassidsavoda.blogspot.com

berl, crown heights said...

1. I can't imagine that anyone would have the chutzpo to propose such an idea to the Rebbe.

2. It is beyond silly to imagine that by choosing 14(!!!!) young bochurimlach and, naniach afilu, providing them with a proper learning enthronement (which is in itself highly doubtful - see par. 3), one can assure the production of "future ramim and rabonim"! Who in the world knows what these KIDS will decide to do when they grow up?

3. We should be teaching children to learn lefi havonas sichlom, starting with a solid understanding of the sugia according to Rashi only (see kuntres Eitz Hachaim). Instead, our Roshei Yeshiva confuse the young minds entrusted in their tender care with premature pilpulim, often of their own invention!!! And this is the definition of "lomdus" noch derztu! In this planned yeshiva for metzuyonim - I am sure – this unfortunate approach will only be exacerbated for the "benefit" of these "lucky" 14! IMHO, the only hope is for the existing Lubavitcher yeshiveis to follow the derech hayoshor described in kuntres Eitz Hachaim. I am sure that approach would produce far more real lamdonim and not just another 14 kalekes, r"l. More importantly, it would enable countless others (not so gifted) to have a real geshmak in lerenen, which is at least as important a goal... Yea, I know – tefilas shov...

berl, crown heights said...

4. Excellence is a by-product of a culture that has a koch in a particular endeavor. Take, lehavdil, Canada / Hockey / Wayne Gretzky. Do you really think that you if can only find 14 Nigerian children with a great natural aptitude for hockey, you will be able to turn them into a bunch of Nigerian Wayne Gretzkys?

berl, crown heights said...

5. If the quality of our contemporary Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim is satisfactory to you, you need not worry about their availability in the future – there is more where they came from...

Rationally pious said...

Hisrshel,
It’s finally nice to see that someone gets it. There is a video of the Rebbe demanding that the best bouchrim of a Yeshivah be put in one corner and the rest of the boys Dalad Amos away. The Rebbe claimed “kinah sofrim tarbeh chochmah”. This is a JEM video, so if someone can help find the exact dates it would be nice. I asked my Rosh Yeshivah why he does not do it. He refused to answer, and he was one that followed the Rebbe to the letter, just goes to show.

The reality is that in Jewish history Torah was number one. There is no respect for real Torah learning anymore in Chabad. The attitude is “Torah menuch bekufsah, kol me sheryotze yovoy vyikach” instead one should ask “Torah shebal peh ma tihiya uleyhuh”?

Sad case in Lubavitch.

berl, crown heights said...

The word "enthronement" in my par 2. is one of those spell-checker-caused errors. I meant to write "environment", naturally. But "enthronement" is really serendipitous as it fits the theme even better (if not the particular sentence) :)

schneur said...

O how I yearn for the honest days of Mental blog.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

we miss you too, schneur

Avi, C.H said...

"4. Excellence is a by-product of a culture that has a koch in a particular endeavor. Take, lehavdil, Canada / Hockey / Wayne Gretzky. Do you really think that you if can only find 14 Nigerian children with a great natural aptitude for hockey, you will be able to turn them into a bunch of Nigerian Wayne Gretzkys?"

Berl,Crown Heights,
You probably need to brush up your sports knowledge a bit.
Just fyi, Richard Williams did just that! He coached his two daughters into world tennis champs.Many of the other best tennis players in the world went to special tennis schools out in Florida.Yeah, so actually in the world of sports there are "yeshivas for metsuyonim"

nsker said...

I think the classless culture is not so much Lubavitch but Russian or even communist in origin. Any counterculture within a country eventually acquires some of the qualities of the host society.

The frum society there was so scarce that there was no room for distinctions. And, they depended on each other for survival. In such circumstances human qualities other than lomdus command more respect.

I think (and this would prove my point) that this attitude could be seen in non-Lubavitchers coming from Russia. However, it was probably quickly corrected in their new kehilos.