After writing such an article?
Here's the PDF from Mishpacha Magazine
The point is that you can think what you want about them, you can discuss it in shul between mincha-maariv, and even tell your wife what you think, but don't show the whole world how heartless you are, no matter how much you dislike the Mishpacha, or Bleich, or anybody involved here. Oh! and that whole "law and order" charade is a bit tired too.
79 comments:
I personally shy away from discussing this type of stuff berabim when yidden are in gefahr.
The emmes iz az err redt tzim zach.Zayer tzim zach.
What irked me is that you got all up in arms when somebody called you a tziganner, now you are doing the same??
Yeh I wanted to brech from Gil's article. Such a kaltkeit an sterile objectivity to the suffering and no appreciation of what askonim did.
He should stick to posting odious photos of Biblical people.
ביטע טראכטען פאר קאמענטירען, און שרייבען" בכבוד'דיג"
this mizera yisroel business is tasteless. i expect better from you.
Issac
Hirshel had the appropriate line, the gemora said on other people Shema Mina Mamzer Hi, for more minor deeds, don't be a Vaiczidkosche, if you ever heard that word.
I don't think Gil has any idea how sheltered some of these kids are.
This post has been removed by its author
I think that GS is expressing an understandable state of revulsion here. Granted, anyone who is in trouble with the law deserves to be assisted in any way (legally) possible. Still, drug trafficking cases attract lots of attention and none of it good. To praise activists so effusively in these cases inevitably gives the impression that we frumme yidden don't give a rat's patootie about obeying the law. We are only interested in saving our bretheren; even those who deserve punishment. Better to keep these activities on the QT and let the activists do their jobs. Besides, in R' Gil's view much of that praise amounts to excessive, unctuous flattery which is a halachic problem in-and-of itself.
Down boy, Tzig! DOWN!!!
Just a follow-on,
I was personally involved in one of these cases some years back. A young newly married fellow was traveling with his new bride overseas and was asked to carry a "package". When they arrived at their destination they were immediately detained by customs, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to 10 years. Through some major but quiet effort they were released after about 18 months. It was pretty clear to me that they were set up as diversionary bait for the enforcement authorities in order to draw attention away from the "real" shipment.
Even if you disagree with Gil, your attack is overblown, unwarranted, and tasteless.
Gil is making some very important points.
There is a reason why his blog has been matzliach so much. The Ribbono shel olam has helped him.
What have you done for the kids by the way? Sent them chitas?
Not Brisk,
There is an fundamental difference between your community's approach and taynas regarding these matters and the esteemed author of this blog.
To a Chabadsker it makes no difference whether a Jew in a situation of Tzoroh of any sort if frum or not.
For the Heimish and Yeshivish oylam, it makes all the differece in the World (and please don't start about the Brisker Rov being Mechalel Shabbos to save university student etc...)
1. If a bunch of frei kids wre to pull a stunt like that would you and your oylam care.
2. If the answer to #1 is no, than how frum are these chevre.
I'm afraid the answer is that the heimish Oylam doesn't care, and feel a need to protect those who grew up among them, regardless of how they behave, something they wouldn't do for other Yidden.
If you want to go all out to protect your own through quiet askanus, gezunteh heit.
However the internalization that these guys are some sitting there with the Maharam MiRottenburg, doesn't fly.
Enough with the public outcry. If you don't want to admit that the Japanese government has every right to do what they're doing, and the same people who are shreing Chai VeKayom would would be thrilled if their own goverments would implement similar policies, at least don't be so brazen about it.
NO. But the truth is he never was, he and his associates are enough of a כופר in תשב"פ that I doubt his grandparents stood at har sinai. Not to mention that fake Rabbi who moderates comments on his blug.
But this post from the bitter-old-fool yesterday was definetly the most vile post I've seen from a person who still claims to be frum. And then moments later he has the audacity to ask for our tefilos.
http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/06/charedi-school-funding-im-with-chilonim.html
If this is not a שואני השם I don't know what is.
mul
What is your point? I said that the post was indifferent to their suffering. What shaychus does all your points have to do with that?
Anyways: If we would write a post about freyer chevrah helping out freyer yidden, there would be a scintilla of empathy. Unlike his post....
Have you read the comments in response to Gil's post? Most of them are as heartless, if not more so,then what comes from Gil's pen.The old joke about "frum" meaning "ful reshis unvintzig mitzvis" has never been truer then the post and it's responses.
MUL
If your real intent was to bring up side issues, please be clearer what you mean. You can write a list of all of your talking points, and then you can just reference each point with a number or a letter, just to save time
I do not understand why you are bashing R Gil. He did not say not to work for pidyon shevuyim. Rather, he said that perhaps this is a hillul hashem, and we need not make a giant PR circus about it. Furthermore he suggested that Mishpacha's coverage was hyperbolic and had, at best, a casual relationship with real reporting. I do not see how a rational person can really disagree with either point. Does it make Heimish, or Torah True Jews look good if people see them as drug mules? Does it make them look good if they are portrayed as so stupid as to not know what they are doing taking something halfway around the globe? This is preposterous. The community is human, they want to help their own and that is fine. But to make yet another Kupat HaIr style ad campaign says more about the corruption or narcissism of these Askonim than it does about the place these peccadilloes should be afforded in Jewish internal discourse. Perhaps they are idiots and shomer pesayim hashem, fine. But there is also the idea of kol mi shein bo deah assur lerachem alav-- and if you are producing such people it might be time to return to the drawing board. Certainly we do not need morons or criminals for our new tzaddikim, although there is no shortage as it is.
My only problem with Gil's post was that he hadn't apparently taken the time to discuss the issue with key figures in the know. That discussion may have justified what he wrote, or justified Mishpacha's take on it. The truth may actually sit in between these two. I don't know.
I do think, though, that questioning whether someone is מזרע ישראל because of that article is not a very nice thing to write, even if you are engaging in hyperbole for your own purpose.
There certainly are different הרגשים amongst Yidden, but to suggest that Gil isn't a ביישן or a רחמן or a גומל חסדים isn't fair in my view.
I have often found that Chabad Chassidim relate negatively to Gil because of his Moshiach book and articles. I have never found him to be disrespectful in that regard and whilst I understand others being upset at some of his conclusions, that's not a reason to be seen to be looking at ways to belittle him.
It is truly a tragedy to take cheap pot shots at someone as highly respected and knowledgeable in Torah learning and in secular matters as Rabbi Gil Student.
Rabbi Gil Student was just hired by the OU to be its publictions expert, so to question or besmisrch his "yichus" is ludicrous, and a real tragedy! He is a very ehrliche and intelligent Jew!
Rabbi Gil Student wrote a rational and normal review in this Mishpacha Magazine article. Too bad too many frum people are accustomed to ArtScroll-style "frumspeak" which has become the norm in writing for the frummerre (farfrumte?) oilem goilem, also a tragedy.
Tzig, this is just too partisan of you, no doubt you are motivated by Rabbi Gil Student's articles and publications critrical of Chabad. But you can't expect the entire world to sing one song in one flat key in unison of praising everything Chabad does as if it has no faults. So take each situation and person on its merits.
Finally someone is not just mouthing frumme reid but actually conveying an academic and reasoned response. He is entitled to that as much as you and Chabad are entitled to theirs and it's a tragedy to try to shoot him down for having the courage of his convictions and sayinmg it like it is!
Anon 1;o2
You, Gil,and his Mo commentators have attitudes of the Yudenrat.
You should ask mechila by Dayan Weiss from Antwerp,for putting down his efforts, he is boruch hashem a gevir on his merits, there is no hidden money reason to create some new kind of fund,plus he is a big talmud chochom he wrote great seforim, dayan weiss knows the halacha as good as Gil and his buddies. The mishpacha description of him was correct to the point.The argument of not helping the boys because they did something wrong(I am not sure)is as not doing bikur cholim for a jew that had heart attack that ate too much red meat,trans fats and smoked.Since he caused the heart attack.plus he made a chilul hashem by being a obese jew in front of gentiles (it will remind the goyim of Shylock)
tzig , great post that gil guy is really looking for issues.
let him go back to "dimyones-philosophy"nonsense that he always writes about and stop trying to tell everybody how wrong they are.
Hirshel
You have anaswered one question with another. Yesterday you asked us about what direction to take. Now youve shown us that you stand alone in the blogosphere as the (almost) lone voice that mixes courage and respect. You attack, but gently and infrequently and your tone is rarely hostile, rather its inquisitive.
Now, you have attacked and ppl are shocked. Good for you! Your Rebbe would have been sickened by Gils post.
First of all- if you've listened to or met Dayan Weiss, he's pretty convincing that the boys are innocent unawares. This besides the chiyuv- not created by Artscroll- of being dan l'caf zchus.
Second. Mishpacha has proven that they are not Artscroll and their platform is not 'all is right in the Jewish world' and lets make nice.
One more thing- a great side benefit to this blog is reading commenters that are far more insightful and intelligent than anywhere else on the kosher net, particularly CB Tragedy whose words thrill every time.
Thank You
compliments are always welcome!
I like that last poster, "inquisitive not hostile'. Thats you Hershel.
And by the way: the only ones throwing cheap shots are the ones here accusing me of going after Gil only because he once wrote a book about the Rebbe not being Moshiach.
Nothing could be further from the truth!
You all should be Lokeh B'Goofoy for this!
I am curioes why the frum eylem and all the gedelim are not crying out for mercy for Mr. Madoff , after all he too is a Jew and jail is not healthy for him. Rabbi Student makes many valid points.
This post is merely a preface to Tzig's forthcoming longer post on the injustice of the American sentencing guidelines for drug related offenses. The Satmar Dayan will also be helping to repeal the Rockefeller drug laws, along with other askanim.
TO schneur
IF YOU DONT UNDRESTAND THE "CHILUK" I GUESS YOU NEVER WILL
Reb Gil himself admits that this is the first issue of Mishpacha that he has read. He apparently thought that it ascribes to a higher standard of journalism than US Weekly or People magazines. Nothing could be further than the truth.
As for your public attack on him, I find it extremely distasteful. If you disagree with him, debate him in the comments section to his article, rather than here.
Sad to say that the problem of drug use, draug-making, drug-running, smuggling and laundering of profits has tentacles that reach far and wide not just in the goyishe world, but very tragically it's all too rife in both the secular and religious Jewish world and among Israeli society, so let's not shoot the messenger (in this case Rabbi Gil Student) because he deals with a rough and tough rational "message" that people would tragicaly prefer not to hear and shove under the carpet, similar to cases of tragic child and sexual abuses that the Jewish world prefers to ignore and macht zich nisht visendik rather than tackling the problems head on and getting rid of them once and for all! Tikkun Olam, anyone?!
Here's an example of just one such story making the news and causing a chillul Hashem simply because the world will look at the violators as representative of the Jewish people no doubt. Seems that Israel is at the hub of international drug trafficking, after all Jews are a cosmopolitan people and they love to travel, and when things go wrong they can always count of their Yiddishe Mamas or their substitutes like mushy fuzzy-wuzzy see-no-evil & hear-no-evil rabbis (leave out do-no-evil for now) to shed copious tears for them (as in the article below) that sounds so typical and familiar when you compare it to the tragic matzav of the nebach three bochurim that the Japs nabbed:
Chile: 2 Israelis suspected of drug smuggling attempt
(Ynetnews.com 07.01.09)
Man, woman from south Israel detained by customs officials near Peruvian border for suspicion of trying to smuggle 15 kilos of cocaine; 'We can only hope that our attorney will handle the matter successfully,' woman's mother says...
Ina, the mother of the Israeli woman who was detained, told Ynet "I don’t even know how she ended up in South America. She flew to Berlin for a two-week vacation. She's a good, normative girl, and has never had any run-ins with the law. All that is left for us to do is hope that our attorney will handle the matter successfully."
In November 2008, Israeli police detectives and customs officials, in cooperation with law enforcement officials in Peru and other Latin American countries, uncovered one of the largest drug smuggling operations in Israel's history.
At the time, authorities seized almost a ton and a half of cocaine worth NIS 2 billion (roughly $500 million.)
______________
Comment: That Israel is such a huge drug state is a mega-tragedy, and the rabbonim know about this and do nothing, so what are they all shedding tears about right now, is it any wonder that eventually things reach critical mass and the youth gets dragged into it, corrupted and then gets caught? It is madness and no one is really doing anything about it. The Japanese police and now the Peruvians now have the job of "mussar" (same shoresh as for prison - bais "hasoar" and "yissurim") and tochacha. Too bad it could not have been brought under control before things got this bad.
The following "facts" in the article are priceless, and are the reason why I am a loyal Mishpacha reader:
"The scheme was perpetrated by a trusted chareidi businessman who lured an unsuspecting middleman-an ehrlich family friend and close relative of one of the boys, to recruit the three young men, asserting that the entire enterprise was legal and above board.
The artifacts were concealed in teh false bottoms of the provided suitcases as a deterrent against theft or accidental loss. They were completely taken in by the stoic convictions, including the promise that a contact person would meet the threesome at the airport to pay the necessary custom fees on the imported valuables should they be taxable".
It turns out: 1) the person who entrapped his teenage relative is not only "frum" but more importantly, "ehrlich". 2) the bochrim didn't even realize they were smuggling, and thought that using a false bottom on a suitcase is a usual way of "preventing theft or accidental loss".
Even with my natural inclination to be dan lechaf zechus, I could never have come up with such wisdom on my own. Thank you once again to the staff of Mishpacha.
CBT, thanks for the link. We now have the prerequisite Lubavitch connection: Mottie Tzivin is one of the top international lawyers when it comes to these sort of things.
Hirshel,
Now you have found a *hot* topic to boost your lifeless blog,eh?
You made a "booboo" however:You question Gils Jewish ancestry.When a poster on your blog said something about YOUR ancestry, you did not like it one bit!
What I see from this is besides for your lack of intellectual skills to somehow prop up your failing blog (and hence your burning jealousy of Gil, who is everything you are not, excellent blog, best commenters ...)you are also ONE WHO DOES UNTO OTHERS WHAT HE DOES NOT WANT DONE TO HIMSELF!!
That makes you someone who needs loads of work of their personality traits.
Listen, you keep to posting pictures, that's what you are good at.Much, better than Gil!
Friendly
If you care to know, the same Tzivin is the attorney for "rabbi" Elior Chen, trying to block the "good rabbis" extradition from Brazil to Eretz Yisroel.
If you''ll remember this Chein was the guy who was busy "exorcising demons" and "educating" a family of young kids by being meyaser them with "inuyim sheloi kesuvim basefer"
Ok, everyone has the right for a defense.Even monsters, but this Chabadsker lawyer has lost my respect.
Kler
I never saw that Tzivin is his lawyer, but maybe.
Are you just as upset at the Rabbonim who are leading the "pidyon Shvuyim" campaign for him????
Google it my friend.Tzivin is representing this tayvel
The pidyon shvuyim is a disgrace.I think they are doing it in London.
"אליאור חן, ששמו נקשר באחת הפרשיות המזעזעות בישראל, מעולם לא נעצר, נשפט או הורשע. הוא קרבן של שלטון התקשורת השופטת" • עו"ד מרדכי ציבין מסביר ל'בחדרי חרדים' מדוע ייצג אותו
Tzig,
Are you prepared, if you verify the info, to call your fellow Chabasker representing this tayvel a scumbag or not??
I guess that''ll really test your "impartiality"
Hirshel,
While contemplating the previous question about Tzivin care to answer this on that was posed to you earlier?
"You made a "booboo" however:You question Gils Jewish ancestry.When a poster on your blog said something about YOUR ancestry, you did not like it one bit!"
My "Jewishness" was questioned for no reason, just because I'm Hungarian. Some bored fool made a "joke" about Tzigayner.
I was using the "MiZerah Yisroel" line to question his lack of compassion, not meaning to say that he's not Jewish. I Thought it was simple, I guess not.
As far as Tzivin goes; what can I say?
And to the one asking me why I "attacked him here" and not by posting a comment to his website; Have you ever the NYT attack the NYP by sending a letter to the editor?!
C'mon, People!
My previous post was garbled.
"You made a "booboo" however:You question Gils Jewish ancestry.When a poster on your blog said something about YOUR ancestry, you did not like it one bit!"
I want to know if you have anything to say to defend yourself on your questioning Gils ancestry
"As far as Tzivin goes; what can I say?"
Hirschel,
Let me make it easy for you.
Lets say Tzivin wore a breiter plachigeh hit and represented this guy.What would you say then?
Better still.Let's say he was a Snag, with out a beard, big tshup, who learned in Ponivaszh!
What names would you call him then?!
Suddenly because Tzivin is a Chabadsker, you don't know what to say???!!!
Remind me never to call you as an "impartial witness"!
Thank you.
kler
good thing you're not my judge and jury, because then my trial wouldn't last very long....
you know everything I'd say already!
Hirshel,
I asked you a question about the Chabadsker.Your answer was "what can I say".To me "teitch" of the answer was:If this guy was not a Chabadsker I'd call him a scumbag!
See, you called Gil a nasty name for making very good points, and even agreeing that they deserve to be helped quietly without turning this into a cause celebre for "frimmeh".
Now it turns out that the Chabasker representing there is also representing a tayvel .Of course I don't think that these bucherim are anywhere close to the fellow in Brazil.The tzad hashoveh, the Chabadsker, is what makes me wary
Per the Ynet article, Tzivin is representing the Israel couple in Peru. I have no idea if he is involved with the Japanese case.
I regret bringing up his name. He is a fine person, and I should have realized that every piece of information posted on this blog can be used as fodder for loshon Horo.
I have "Hirhurim" in my favorates, so I guess I am technically a talmid of Rav Rabonon Moreinu Gil Student.
I have very high regard for him and for his constant search for the derech hayoshor.
However Tzig is right to write this line, it is a rhetorical question, and it reflects regrettably the ultimate dividing line between the MO's and Chareidi outlook.
To their own detriment Chariedim sometimes act recklessly because they care very little how their actions reflect on the view goyim have of them.
And MO's care very much. They claim that their 'caring' comes from their high concern for kevod shmoh yisburech, under the slogan "chulul hashem' this, or that.
In my estimation its more for selfish reasons. Its telling themselves and the world, goyim and all;"hey don't hate me, I am not like them; those fellah's who don't polish their shoes, and raise a rockous on the airplane; and who don't use mouthwash etc."
"but me? look at my pleated pants and silk tie; I am a walking kidush hashem!"
While I myself (a chasidishe guy) harbor those same feelings as a regular MO on the need to make a good impression, I see those uncouth hasidim as my own flesh and blood, the crooked plaque laden teeth don't repulse me. When they are in pain all charadim feel it and come to the rescue.
Just leave "(chilul) hashem" out of it. Moreinu Gil is not here to please Hashem with that post, as much as he is here to iron out his pleated silk intellectual mind and followers. Make them feel good as MO's among the goyim and other non frum Jews.
Tzig was not questioning the 'actual' yichus of Stoodent. But he is in my opinion justified in asking this question in a rhetorical sense.
All hypothetical questions are not relevant or persuasive. Would the chareidim come to the rescue of a Jew without that hat? I hope yes.
It is the Chareidim who visit the dregs of society in Jails among them Jews who have very little in common with them.
(the Rabbi Glantz story therefore, is a perfect example of the the different MO responses from the Charidi response but that's for a another day)
We all know the gemara that that Nebezraadon ran to מצרים and became a גר צדק I checked the gemara yes it says צדק Would dayan Weiss run to a jail to save a person like נבוזרדן הרשע In jail after he became a ג"צ???
Or if we follow the gemara logic could Hitler have become a Ger and be כקטן שנולד and have Dayan Weiss defend him? After all Hitler didn't kill no Jew and Nebezraadon killed with his own knife 24,000 כהנים משוחים !!
I think the answer is in what the children say in cheder in the famous "ואני"
ווען נבזראדן "הרשע" האט פארטריבען די אידען אין גלות אריין..
First 'feel' and act like your are
מזרע ישראל really!
But who knows Maybe Rabianu Gil will follow the strict law and deem Hitler a new and different person. Or maybe that will be a chillul hashem for the goyim, who knows, its a good question for a fine silken mind,such as Rabbi Gil but no question for a guy who is
מזרע אברהם אוהבו.
Yosef 718
Guys,
Stop attacking Tzig.
What else can you expect from a frustrated Lubavitcher, frustrated that nobody want to see the light.
Tzig, it's ok we understand where you are coming from.Btw, you are just coming from a very spiritual shabbat at the cemetry but your batteries just don't seem to be recharged.
Friendly,
Tzivin is VERY,VERY involved in Japan!
Nothing wrong with that, hopefully he''ll do a good job.
Everything wrong with representing the Brazilian case.
Tzig,
I rarely agree with you - detest your automatic defense of all things Lubavitch and often slanderous and hateful portrayal of what you refer to as "Snags" but I couldn't agree with you more about this post.
If Gil wanted to write a post about how Mishpachah is not worthy of journalistic respect, there's plenty of evidence for that in every issue.
Why he chose to use this issue and so heartlessly and coldly decry the efforts made on behalf of these poor bochurim [who are probably guilty of something but for heavens sakes - 10 years of Japanese prison hell????] is truly beyond me. I cannot think of one good reason. Let's assume the kids were wrong - can one imagine the pain of their parents? Why so cold? Why so heartless?
His commenters? Other than a few, they're the cruelest and coldest Chareidi-hating bunch I have ever come across among Shomrei Shabbos.
May none of them ever experience the pain of the parents of these boys, but the Eibishter should open their hearts and help them realize how wrong they are for displaying such coldness.
Yohcee718,
Do me a favor and rewrite your post.
The spelling and grammar are atrocious.
Well,I guess you''ll say that I've missed the point.Only the Modern Orthodox care about those "small details" and you are writing "from the heart".Problem is I did not even get your post.For example what was the rambling part at the end with Hitler,נבוזראדן, שר הטבחים?
Once your post is clear,I''ll be able to decide whether Hirshel, who was himself questioned about his ancestry has the right to say the same about others.
Anon 608pm
I take it you didn't even read Gils post.How do I know? Well, for starters you ask: "If Gil wanted to write a post about how Mishpachah is not worthy of journalistic respect, there's plenty of evidence for that in every issue." Gil STARTED the post with these words!!: "Thanks to a local organization, I received a free copy of Mishpacha magazine this week. I've never read it before but I've heard great things about it. "
He has never read it before! Get it!
He never says anything about not defending these boys! His point is stop making ridiculous claims, and keep this mayseh low key!!!It's not something frimmeh yidden should be proud of!
Gosh, sometimes I'm sorry my kids go to frimmeh yeshivas.What a bunch of illiterate,self righteous arrogant schnorrers we churn out!
Feh!
Rabbi Gil Student, reminds me so much of Rabbi Moshe Tendler. The Rabbi Tendler of years ago.
[Perhaps he actually is one of his prize studenta]
Rabbi Gil acts and writes very similair to the Rabbi Tendler of 40-50 years ago.
Having learned and gathered some knowledge, he assumes himself to be much greater than he is. He pompously will make statements that are not according to accepted Halacha. He generally will attempt to prove that the accepted Haredi outlook and opinions are faulty, and will express his opinions in a deragotary fashion.
He, Rabbi Gil, as well as Rabbi Tendler, are frustrated individuals, insecure and in constant search of Kavod and honor.
It is truly a pity and a shame for a young Rabbi such as Gil to be in this situation.
Issac,
GS acted like a Yudenrat by Rubashkin already, I don't see his(not even Schneurs) pain on Charney the owner of American Apparel caught with 1200 illegal alien in California, A jewish guy too, Vail er hot nisht a Bord. I will state it again, the Rubashkin family are a family of Tzadikim, GS and his ilk are not worth the cow manure of Iowa.
Dovid Hakoton (haton be'emes!)
Gil Student writes what is arguably one of the best Torah blogs on the web.I think almost everybody would agree with that sentiment, besides for some cranky moshe kapoyers like yourself.
He is a great writer and knowledgable.
Is he perfect?No!
Are you..................probably not, either
Al Franken
"'m sorry my kids go to frimmeh yeshivas.What a bunch of illiterate,self righteous arrogant schnorrers we churn out"
what a nazi statement from a self hating Jew
Hirshel,
I really enjoyed your post ages ago about your growing up in Boro Park.
You only gave us the first installment about going to Spink.
Can we get chapter two?
Shuky,
He can have the best torah links in town,but he still has no halachic sources in his rant, he was talking from a goyish viewpoint, He can be the biggest scholar but he had no right to write that in a public forum, if he hurted the case of these boys one iota then the gehinom is not large enough for him(I hope he believes in schar veoinash). How can he look in the face of these deeply hurt mothers who are devasted and shattered. On his personality level I realized that he is a confused soul since he is constantly disappointed with his own community,as bible criticism etc.., so he is looking for some great aveiro in the real charaidi community to make him feel good for a few days.
Anon 701pm
You sound like some of those illiterate, arrogant schnorrers I was talking about.
Firstly the correct quote is this :"Gosh, sometimes I'm sorry my kids go to frimmeh yeshivas.What a bunch of illiterate,self righteous arrogant schnorrers we churn out"
SOMETIMES, is what I said, that gives it a whole different context.
Secondly, why is even your misquote a "nazi statement"???
GS is more like Klass from the JP than MT, Klass was THE true example of an עם הארץ.
The comment begged the author to be destroyed
While certainly a cut above the general society, we are doing a disservice to our youth.
R' Chetzkel Roth and others ban the internet or email for business use etc....
By increasingly shutting the youth out and giving them no options for parnasa (especially outside the community, where many jobs pay poorly), we are bringing on ourselves the poverty and hopelessness faced by pre WW2 Eastern European Jewry, when so many youth went 'arup fin veg' not because of problems in yiddishkeit or a melamed who molested them CH"VS but because they saw being frum as the source of hopelessness.
Unless we can figure a way to stop this utter admiration in charedi circles for rich people especially by rabbanim and rosh yeshivahs...we are sending out a bad message that if you really want respect...you have to be rich....a simple ben torah will never get a second look unless he has major yiches....
The main problem is large families...high cost of living (housing....schar limud....pesach), children wearing designer clothes which must be new for every yomtov and season....and the ever prevelent problem of needing a packed silver cabinet and supporting kollel yungerleit in luxury (if you are in kollel....why need seven custom sheitels, a car etc...).....you will have people getting into all sorts of scams to get the money together to pay for it all......
If you cannot help people pay their bills...you are forcing them to steal...
R' Ahron Kotler once asked Rav Breuer from Washington Heights how he can send his talmidim to college...Rav Breuer responded, by depriving them of a chance to earn parnasa you are forcing them to become ganavim.........
A rich ganef who everyone knows does shvindleray knows his local rabanim will stand up for him in court....but never spare a thought for the pushiter poor balabos who has tzores in his life
WHERE IS THE YOSHER ????
anon
you break my heart. The Aibeshter should send you a yeshuah and parnassa bikorev.
Anon,
In the meantime the satmars with no secular studies what so ever plus their language barrier are the most succesfull of all the frummies. You have to stop being so pragmatic and have bitochan. The families with the 13 children are more wholesome then the families with the 2 kids. The amount of stress is the same.Hashem said to cheskiah go ahead and havekids and don"t do my cheshbonois.The yekkes are in decline on all fronts no doir hahemshech,no big gevirim
I have known Gil for some years. He was a very choshuv yungerman until he decided to jump on the Slifkin bandwagon and began publishing books which are kosher lemechteh lishlish o lirevia.
he changes in attitude and hashkafas seems to confirm that avera goreres avera
How he can deny the mesirus nefesh and ahavas yisroel of a tzaddik like dayan Weiss is beyond me. Anyone who knows him will confirm that he is a true adam gadol. A gaon olom whose seforim are used by serious talmidei chachomim and a heart of gold for every Jew b'asher hu sham.
I ask Gil is CV one of his kids fell into such a trap and needed help would he also have denigrated the rescue mission?
Remember Elokim yevakesh es hanirdaf - afilu nirdaf rasha!
TO,
Al Franken
"'m sorry my kids go to frimmeh yeshivas.What a bunch of illiterate,self righteous arrogant schnorrers we churn out"
Look if you dont like it,then send your kids to a less frimmeh school
you are guilty of not education and blame yourself
"How he can deny the mesirus nefesh and ahavas yisroel of a tzaddik like dayan Weiss is beyond me. Anyone who knows him will confirm that he is a true adam gadol. A gaon olom whose seforim are used by serious talmidei chachomim and a heart of gold for every Jew b'asher hu sham."
He doesn't deny anything.
You did not read his post.Read it.
Al
You are lying, Gil is denigrating all the askanim, ridicules the positive description of the Mishpacha for these askonim.
I just would like to ask Gil if Ezra Merkin is considered a typical MO Jew? the president of the most prestigous MO shul,Talmudist,Literary scholar,why did he have to steal? he had secular education. We charadim are constantly under a barrage of criticisim from Gil and his commetators that we are prone to steal because of the lack of secular education.Where is the outrage when a Mo is a thief from innocent people? his sin is not giving a job to a poor immigrant, Where is Shneur, Menachem Genak, when will the guys&gals of Yu make a symposium on Merkin? as they did so ruthlessly on a prestigous family of Brooklyn/Iowa, that are not at ease discussing Literary Classics and Modern Art.But they are at ease to know when a poor jew in brooklyn is hungry to give him a warm meal in their nice inn in BP. This Mo element is disgusting to be so arrogant, Novul Birshis hatorah in every field.
Not only do you have to ask mechila from Rabbi Student, you also have to ask it from the rest of his family too, for the disgusting slur that you headed your piece with.
Please don't insult our intelligence by bleating that you were merely asking a question, it is vaddai motsi shem ra.
Your fellow Lubavitcher who posts under the pseudonym of "Milhouse" called me a "mamzer ben nidda" on VIN because he didn't like I said the GRA's attitude towards chassidus. With magnificent irony, I later found that as the Tsemach Tsedek had said the same thing as me, doubtless Milhouse will now refer to the Tsemach Tsedek in the same manner.
Abusing a person with whom you disagree is not conducive to winning an argument, in fact it usually means that your own argument is deficient.
פסל לך שני לוחות אבנים
Sorry to get back to the topic of my post.
I think some posters are either living in la la land or outright shakronim.
It is a metzius that the charedi world (not as a whole but a good %) do not have emuna and , as they are known more than any other group in yiddishkeit to cheat and steal, especially from those not of their group but even from them.
There are enough chassidish drug mules that border control and customs officials can no longer distinguish between those who are naive and those who are trying to play their bluff. The levush no longer impresses anyone and sadly, in America and Europe if anything it raises suspicion. There have been so many scandals involving frummer yidden that no one trusts us anymore.
If the three bochrim were the first chassidim to be arrested for this, rather than somewhere in the list of chassidim in the paper for money laundering, fraud, child m.....station etc.... they would stand a better chance.
Not many can afford overseas trips to EY and Europe every year, silver cabinets that ngidim of past would never dream of, expensive clothes and ....you would have to be a lottery winner or a major ganef....
We are our own worst enemy and continue to be because of the stupidity and sheer arrogance of leaders who (behind closed doors) say the goyim are stupid.
We think our askanim will get them out of anything...
If you want to live in erlichkeit and be poor...you are doing rutzon hashem...I don't think the aybishter wants chassidish people regularly on the front of every paper for doing major crime.
The problem is that wearing chassidish levush does not give them pnimius...which is lacking....
Charedi lifestyle withough believing in what you are doint is plain stupid and self damaging....
START LIVING YOUR VALUES....
WAKE UP - EVERYONE ELSE HAS AND WE ARE LOSING THE GAME !!!
Oh I nearly forgot...it must be the tzioynim that are causing the goyim to hate us...hisgarus bamim is only a sin of the MO....yeah....its the fault of the tzioynim.....
DOWN WITH ISRAEL......otherwise there would be no bochrim in Japanese jails....
Anon
Can you explain me Ezra Merkin the president of 5th ave synagouge as Ganef
The charadi communities are campaining aggresively for Tekonas to tighten the flaunting of weddings and their private lives, and they had a big impact allready.
Wow - so weddings will cost less...
this is a significant...but small dint in the problem which has existed for over thirty years (2nd generation post WW2).
What about giving yingerleit the ability to pay for a roof over his head (i.e. pay a mortgage), pay for schar limid rather than going every year to beg for reduced fees....etc....there are ongoing costs which prevent families from saving up to pay for the weddings ahead of time....
Wedding takunes are a good start...but lets hope that people don't fool themselves that this is the salvation....
Having a job is also about a yingerman being able to have some self respect, rather than being a shnorrer (and made to feel like one too).
How many people remember the day they left kollel as the beinging of a life of misery and not knowing where they will pay for everything.
The earlier generation had smaller hasuges, smaller familes (in some cases) and better general education (not not college...).
The world is moving faster and we are being left behind......and the rabbunim are extremely out of touch with the nisyoines of the yingerman who travels outside the community.
WHERE ARE THE RABBUNIM WILLING TO GET THEIR HANDS DIRTY OR AT LEAST EMPATHISE WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION WHO DO NOT WANT TO CHEAT AND RIP OFF THE WELFARE SYSTEM ????
Yes I can explain Ezra Merkin..The Mesilas Yeshurim brings plenty of mamorei chazal that people are greedy...no chidish there.
The problem is when fine, otherwise erlicher people become desparate and look to crime (yes cheating the welfare system is a crime) and other un-ethical means because the system has cheated them of a way to support themselves in a way they can retain self respect....
We justify genayve as the only way to get by, whereas in MO circles it is seen for what it is...JUST AS TRAIF AS A HAM SANDWICH !
Anon,
Ezra Merkin is a orthodox Jew and talmudist, with secular studies background, and took part in one of histories largest scheme, my point is, a ganef is a ganef, laymen or intelectual.
By chasidim in the diaspora there is no shame to get a job at early age, in the yeshiveshe world you are labeled almost a mechalel shabos if you leave the yeshiva bench. In kiryat sefer there are shuls that will expell you if you are a desserter from the yeshiva walls.
Anon,
Even bar mitzvah cost has been brought down to $1400. I dont think that you can delve in to private lives more then these takonas,
Just to let people know what PSOL is talking about, he claimed that the GRO's campaign against chasidus, far from being a huge mistake, was in fact correct. The GRO acted leshem shomayim, but there is no question that it was a terrible mistake, which he surely regretted as soon as he reached Olom Ho'emes. Anyone who claims it was correct shows a chutzpah far worse than that of the boy from whose behaviour R Akiva deduced that he was a mamzer and ben hanidah.
Now PSOL follows up his chutzpah with a lie. The Tzemach Tzedek said no such thing.
As far as Tzivin defending Chen, how do all these people know that he's guilty? He hasn't been convicted, the alleged evidence against him, if it even exists, has not been tested, so why is everyone so sure it holds water?
Millhouse,
Only a menuval like Eliach can come and conclude that all that has been said against the chasidim was legit,after 200 years of being the torchbearers of Yiddishkiet in Ryssia, Lithuania, Poland, Galicia and Hungary.why because the gedolim couldnt be mistaking, whats his view on the Eishits?Emden saga? Does this menuval take a side?
Reb Chaim already said that by his day there was no longer any such thing as a misnaged leshem shomayim. Kal vochomer 100 years later.
Thanks for this post and for your site on the whole. I’ve just subscribed to it.
I really like what you’re doing here. Keep posting that way. Take care!
Aloha dude! I completely agree with your opinion. Many thanks for having written this.
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