Sunday, June 14, 2009

He wants more

The reader who sent me the material for this thread has some more questions on anecdotes brought in the book. He gets the impression that Simcha Raz is/was (is he still alive?) a Misnaged. I said "no." At least I didn't think he was. He wrote a book on Reb Nachman as well, so I didn't think he was. But now I'm beginning to think that maybe he's on to something...

But first, a video clip about Reb Aryeh

Reader: Am I crazy on these?

This paragraph reads like a cute joke. It first contrasts RAL to Chassidim to complement RAL, implicitly acknowledging that Chassidim/Rebbes are models of devotion to G-d.The writer/translator/editor/? uses the very same catalyst of Chassidim as a footstool to catapult and exalt RAL’s pious status far beyond that of a Chosid or Rebbe, effectively disparaging Chassidim as lesser models of Yiddishkeit than RAL.

So he was more than a Rebbe and more than a Chossid? A Rebbe is not a model Jew? A Chossid is not a model Jew? Let's change our personal paradigms by word substitution in order to appreciate the silliness of the paragraph:

This was no ROSH YESHIVA leading devoted followers in the ways of MUSAR. He was himself a thorough CHOSSID, educated and living outside the world of MUSAR. Nor was he an ILUI, producing wondrous CHIDUSHIM (although there were CHIDUSHIM in his life).(OK SO FAR BUT HERE IS THE PUNCH LINE:))

He was something more, something greater. He was an extraordinary model Jew. This next one could be an editorial mix up but the Frierdiker Rebbe is dissed by omission……read on:

Halfway down the next page, where it starts "AT THAT MEETING," it attributes a life changing message coming from either the Frierdiker Rebbe or Rav Kook because they were the only ones in the room, and R. Aryeh didn’t say which one actually said it, but its logical that the Rebbe said it, yet the editor places Rav Kook’s name in parenthesis as the one who gave R. Aryeh a life changing message. I don’t get it; R. Aryeh, his long time friend Rav Kook who he visiting with, get together with the Lubavitcher Rebbe, the ICON of mesiras nefesh for a once in a life time meeting, and from this meeting R. Aryeh learns from his old time friend instead of the Rebbe? And the Rebbe taught him nothing? There is no doubt that R, Aryeh meant the Lubavitcher Rebbe. The best I could say is that this is an editor slip up.

The paragraph above describes two pious brothers, talmidim of the GRA, who wander the country side teaching Torah to children and country folk. Given that this story is:

1) placed next to the story that disses the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and
2) having read the other quoted paragraph disparaging Chassidim,
3) given that this is not the nature of the talmidim of the GRA, and
4) that the story only lists the first names of these talmidim with no other evidence,

It seems that this story is likely a fabrication in an effort to prove and promulgate that the GRA is the progenitor of Ahavas Yisroel and the true Baal Shem Tov. The upshot is that if the GRA is the true BESHT, then the Lubavitcher Rebbe has no real tradition, and is cut down at his roots. Add to that the previous story on the page; the FR doesn’t even register as a somebody with a current message since RAL ‘learned’ from Rav Kook instead of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

Ad Kan the Reader. It seems like somewhat of a stretch, even to me.


kurkevan said...

The formatting of this post needs some help... the images aren't displaying.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

try refreshing the page and seeing if it displays any better. It should.

Anonymous said...

Do all Lubis suffer from paranoia, or just the gekumines?

Michoel said...

Please... Why did you bother to post this nonsense?

zev b said...

Tzig dont bother with these things you are not going to understsnd the klal is "katnus derheibt nisht gadlus" this is above you grasp
keep bust with chabad polotics or the like.

Leroy said...

Prolific ;)

Anonymous said...

"But now I'm beginning to think that maybe he's on to something...", "It seems like somewhat of a stretch, even to me". I'm getting dizzy...

Burech said...

Wonder who the guy "sending in the material " is.He sounds a lot like you!
If you are interested in watching an intere4sting discussion on a religious tv program in Israel on R'Aryeh, where Simcha Raz is on the panel go to this link :
Simcha Raz is basically a Mizrachi guy, and watching the video he''ll explain how he got to know R'Aryeh.
R'Simcha is an eynikel of R'Simcha Madelbaum a Karliner chusid from Jerusalem and he is a brother of a Dayan, Rabbi Rakover z'l who wrore seforim on the Gaon on Shulchan Urech and Simcha related (in an interview I read) once that The Rebbe showed him that these seforim were on the bookcase of seforim that The Rebbe used all the time (as opposed to seforim the Rebbe had in his personal library, that were not used on a daily basis)
There seems to me (more than...)a tendency in Lubab to make any special person appear to be not special so as not to be competition the Shlit'as

burech said...

I also don't get why this "guy" is obsessed with what Simcha Raz is.
The book is one of the most read in it's genre i.e biographies of rabbis.It has been read by all walks of life in Israel secular and religous, very unusual for a book about a Yerushalmy Yid!
The book is about R'Aryeh Levin!

See here we have a Lubab tactic:Throw the focus off the REAL topic and focus on non issues (Simcha Raz: Snag or LubaB?)
And why???
Because if a yid who had no shaychus to chasides comes out smelling like a rose, it (in their minds, at least)challenges their world outlook of the only person who can be a mishlem is someone who bebbehs chasides while eating breakfast before he daven at 10:30 am (fartoooogs is for "Peylishe")
It also challenges their Nesi'im as the only people who had "real ahavas yisruel

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


now who's being paranoid???

1) the link to the video is posted here

2) why do I care who Simcha Raz's elter zeide was? He obviously is not a Karliner Chossid anymore, he's a Dati LeUmi now

3) Reb Aryeh's Ahavas Yisroel only shows the hypocrisy of the Yeshivishe/Perusim world today, it doesn't c"v diminish the Rebbe's stature

n said...

Burech, I'm not obsessed, but rather offended. I started reading the book to absorb and learn from RAL who seems like a tzadik if I may say so myself. But I saw that someone, either the writer, translater, or editor, through a slight of a few words promoted an anti chossid/Lubavitch sentiment that would make RAL roll over in his grave. Someone who purports to love him is using him after his petira like a shmatte. This sickens me. I then couldn't just continue to read, enjoy and absord RAL's righteousness, because I no longer trusted the book (its author/translator/editor). So again, its a two fold offence, using a deceased tzadik as a rag through deception and revision of history.

Anonymous said...

"r just the gekumines?"
please brush up on your yiddish

Anonymous said...

Burech and all Chabad haters
in the world of Chabad, RAL is highly respected from the Rebbe down,
the Kfar Chabad had long write ups about him etc..
Some nut case has too much time on his hand to decipher the depth of a populist write as Simcha Raz Zol im zeien tzu Gezunt, I don"t see how Hirshel got entrapped

Anonymous said...

In the clip Rav Aryeh Levin of Tzafon T.A. recounts a store about
ר' משולם איגרא
and like a typical contemporary litvak has no idea who he was

Even though he was misnaged, but after all he was the Rebbe of the Ketois and the Nesivos etc.

burech said...

"3) Reb Aryeh's Ahavas Yisroel only shows the hypocrisy of the Yeshivishe/Perusim world today, it doesn't c"v diminish the Rebbe's stature"

How does this show "the hypocrisy of Yeshivishe/Perushim world"?
Btw, the Yeshiva world and the Perushim are actually two different communities, but whatever.I don't get "how it shows" anything.If your "lomdus" was written in a a sefer I'd say on it "talmid toieh kusav zois", but your twisted Logic appears to be the REAL you and a "talmid" is someone who seeks to learn, something I can't say on you.
Lastly, my theory was that some in Chabad don't sit well with any superlatives about "andereh" in case it seems like competition to their shlit'as.Who do you think you are kidding when it's a known fact that in Lubab, you don't go to any other rov or rebbe, it's seen in their eyes as "cheating".Even now when they have no rebbe, they will not seek another rov.A real mevakesh cannot help but seek and search and deceased people cannot serve the needs as live rebbe can, but Lubab have no need to seek, they after all have all the "truth" eveything that a "talmid used lechadesh" was told to their Rebbe.
Fools paradise.

Hey Anon Lubab7:05,
What is :"and like a typical contemporary litvak has no idea who he was"?
Did you have to many boondelech in the chulent on shabbes?

Anonymous said...

Is Chabad a shita or a new formula of Tzvibel Kugel or Herring?
If you beleve its a shita then how can a undiluted Lubavicher go to a Rebbe (if you will find one) lets take the Rachmistrivker, that will not even let you look in Tanya? He has to go to a mashpia that shares the same derech as him and heal him. But a Belzer chosid had no problem going to the old Skwerer for a kwittel and talk to him, eventough he does not believe that he his as a tzadik as the Belzer Rov Reb Aron but he is in his ballpark. The lubavicher can use the AJ Twersky family of doctors for professional help but not for a derech thats not his.

browser said...

ziggeleh,thanks a million for the link to the reb aryeh was gevaldig


Anonymous said...

Tzig- you look stupid for posting this nonsense. (unless, of course, you actually believe some of it yourself)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Stupid is in the eye of the beholder...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Chaim? Chaim who?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

more disgruntled bochur syndrome. There really isn't much point in posting this stuff.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

point well taken, all of you.

See? your opinions DO count!

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

We won't know our opinions count until the guy sends something else and you don't post it. Of course we won't know then either.

burech said...

"2) why do I care who Simcha Raz's elter zeide was? He obviously is not a Karliner Chossid anymore, he's a Dati LeUmi now"

You are the one bringing up 200+ year history all the time.Like "Avigdor" "Snags".I guess when you have nothing to say you bring up 200 year old history.

I, actually want you to post more of this type of stuff.No, not for the "historical" content.For the sociological one.You see I love sociology and these posts and comments give me insight in the psyche of Lubavitchers new and old.
I'm fascinated by what makes people tick, what makes them join different groups.Especially more radical ones.I want to understand what will not allow Lubavitchers to accept the Rebbes passing.
Bekitser there is a lot I want to know

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you want sociology? you got it!

פרטים יבואו

burech said...


Anonymous said...


"I want to understand what will not allow Lubavitchers to accept the Rebbes passing."

do you remember a Chazal Mi Sheyomer Rebbe Mes Tidkor Becherev? first figure out their way of thinking, then go to the next step

s said...

I'm surprised you don't know that R'Simcha Raz is very much alive and kicking.
"He gets the impression that Simcha Raz is/was (is he still alive?) a Misnaged. "
Correcting it would show less ignorance.

Isaac Balbin said...

I admit to not understanding this post. The (lehavdil) Rashi/Tosfos on every word of Simcha Raz is strained. It doesn't allow any sense of literary license on the part of the author let alone imagination.

I took his description to be very simple.

Reb Areh was no Rebbe, he was even brought up as a misnaged and yet despite this, Reb Aryeh stood outside of such well known denominations and achieved a lofty level of chesed and avodas hashem and was blessed with m'aasim niflaim to the extent that he was perhaps in a category of his own, k'ein malach.

PS. It could be that Reb Aryeh Levin was inspired by the tmimesdike response of Rav Kook to the Rayatz after the Rayatz explained why he had come to Israel. It goes without saying that Reb Aryeh wouldn't have spoken like that to a Rebbe, and perhaps he was inspired by the tmimes and message of the response and the back and forth that must have ensued. Did the Rayatz write any details of that discussion down by the way?