Ich bin in Golus in Chabad...
tachanun on a Yohrtziet, no selichos during AYT, too much Tehillim-zogen...
Again with the Piyutim and the Pizmonim....
He'll defy his zeide and not listen to him, he says....
Monday, June 1, 2009
A dilemma for the ages
Warning! Knowledge of Lubavitcher minhogim, as well as the minhogim of the rest of Klal Yisroel is mandatory for you to understand the rhymes here. Not to mention advanced, spoken, Galicianer Yiddish. The grammen are the work of a scion of 2 Chabad Rabbeyim; the Alter Rebbe and his son the Mitteler Rebbe, who lived in a Mid-Atlantic U.S. Chabad community until very recently, and was subjected to their customs and Nusach Hatefilloh, despite not being raised amongst Lubavitcher Chassidim. He asks his zeide, the Alter Rebbe, why he did this to him, why is he making him omit all those wonderful Piyutim and Yotzros that he so loves to say? You might say hilarity ensues, it's just that those words are not very appropriate in this case. What you do get is a look into the mindset of some of the Yungeleit and Bachurim from other kreizen who join Lubavitch and later find out about all the differences in nusach and minhogim. Not me, of course, other people.
Ich bin in Golus in Chabad...
tachanun on a Yohrtziet, no selichos during AYT, too much Tehillim-zogen...
Again with the Piyutim and the Pizmonim....
He'll defy his zeide and not listen to him, he says....
Ich bin in Golus in Chabad...
tachanun on a Yohrtziet, no selichos during AYT, too much Tehillim-zogen...
Again with the Piyutim and the Pizmonim....
He'll defy his zeide and not listen to him, he says....
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48 comments:
I am throwing in the towel. This is what reall poetry looks like.
They followed the Gaon's minhag about V'Shumru etc.
Lakewood is big into piyutim
Brisk has a lot of it, because it has the minhagim of the shul in Brisk, not minhagey hasyeshivos (That go back till Matan Torah, right?)
you're not gonna be pushed into retirement by one guy, now are you?!
Number seven: the last line- does it say what I think it says? SOS
Funny how he laments saying tahanun on Rebbishe yartzeits in the same breath of saying tachanun on 7 Adur. Interesting
new posts at
briskyeshivish.blogspot
talk about free advertising....
This is great! For those of us whose yiddish is such that deciphering handwriting doesn't help, could you please type?
shkeyach.
When I davened for the amud in a chabad house sukkos, I said v'seiarev and nobody said boo. Least of all the shliach.
--Der Moderne Shaygetz
www.shemayisrael.com
Look at all the Litvaks interviewing people that want to know about every detail in the Gaon Hador's life
Two minutes in I hear someone who came from CB and the Gaon Hador asks him 'ehr lernt bay Hutner'
Any chance you'll type the thing out?
I thought translation was more important, so I began working on it first. But maybe tomorrow.
It perhaps would be - though it's beyond me how you'll keep the flavor.
yup
flavor will be all but gone
Zeier gut! A hartzigen yaser keyach!
I am struck by how many of the things correspond to minhogei HaGR"A, bifrat. Others correspond to old minhag Ashkenaz.
I especially like the line at the end of the second sheet, that Lubavitchers are erger than the Litvakes! Perhaps he reflects the thinking of other Chagasniks there...
yes
they dislike the namesless, faceless, Litvakes as a whole, but get all flustered and self-conscious around specific ones
וד"ל
Hirshel - any comments re the new release of Galitzianer-Bobover Shabbos zemiros sung in Galitzianer havoroh by Avremel Fried & mishpoche?
I heard it.
I liked it, despite a few botch ups. The idea is a very nice one, and I applaud them for doing it.
Hirshel
is this stuff not from AJ Twersky from when he was in Chabad in Pittsburgh?
What a Moach Dochak
it is from Twerski.
I once heard that he has gramen of these sort,
What amazes me that he had no qualms to change from the Sanzer/Chernobler/Reb Zushe to become rachmono litzlon a doctor, this way of thinking is pure Bobov
-Snag: Keep in mind that the Friedman album is a collection zmiros as sung to them by the head of the family . . .
ער דערמאנט די שבת זמירות
? אבער וואס איז מיט'ן אנעים זמירות
און ווו קומט ער אהין
? דער סדר פון די אושפיזין
דעם מעוז צור האט ער פארגעסען
און ח''ו שלוש סעודות עסען
יאסל
זייער גוט געזאגט
!אייזן
I believe the gramenn were written and sung at one of Sholom Posners grandchildren
one of his grandchildren what?
a wedding?
ר' יעקב זצ"ל
of Radzin Told me a few weeks before he was niftar that in Radzin they accepted all of the Chabad Sidur, except for one thing; saying 'tzur yisroel'
The first Radziner said that to change that, is too much for him. He wants to be part of klal yisroel and say צור ישראל קומה בעזרת ישראל ופדה...
I actually did not like or see any art in the poem.
And many minhogim are not from the Baal Hatanya. i.e. Noi Succah. If I remember correctly it appears in the work of the last Lub Rebbe and its a one liner
אין מנהגינו בנוי סוכה
Just like that, a mishna flew out the window just as a whole perek in Maseches Succah about sleeping in the succah flew.. (pleeeeze don't get me into that..]
I heard that Reb Aron Kotler also did not say piyut as is the yeshivisha minhag. Except for pesach's
ברח דודי
Which is recited in Lakewood with great emotion. Because that piyut with its powerful emotional punch was too much for Reb Aaron to leave out, so he insisted on an exception. Which is precisely the feeling that is being expressed in this poem.
Yosef 718
Hey Tzig, did you see the picture of you on that yeshivishe blog. That guy was you, right?
Toshe Kalb is outdoing Maybe A Litvak. Wow
he wrote and performed grammen at the deren siblings weddings (posner einiklach)
I've published many times to correct somethings about the Twerskis.
This time you have it right. Yes. It was sung by R' Posner's grandchild's wedding. I heard him sing it, and it is just not same same when you hear it with the Niggun.
BTW. He also sang another grammen at the wedding when he called up R' Posner. It was a much more serious Gram and ended off ......Baruch Menachem al HaBrios.
( I might have a copy of it. He gave me copies of most of his [many] grammen.
Yosef 718
To say the last Lubavicher woke up one day to eliminate Noi Succa is Chutzpa that evolves from ignorance. He didn't grow up in a void as most of todays Rebbes, he had a father that was breathing Chabad in his lungs, and a grandfather the Rebash,and a FIL that was a Rebbe.
You believe he had a geshmak to erase a Mishna, or to eliminate the Arts and Crafts industry.
Yosef
He wants to be part of klal yisroel and say צור ישראל קומה בעזרת ישראל ופדה...
its ironic that it didn't bother them to be different then Klal yisroel by the Techeles
Yosef
When exactly did Yeshiveshe Minhogim start? is it frozen or still in developmental stages? did they solve the Al Titoish/Loi Sisgodi problem? We Chasidim had to defend our lives for problems of this sort. Or Reb Aron was Etzem Hatorah( obviously the last
lubavicher wasn't)he can manuver anything
'You believe he had a geshmak to erase a Mishna, or to eliminate the Arts and Crafts industry.'
You believe he would've done it even if he had children, right?
"When exactly did Yeshiveshe Minhogim start?"
Read MOAG where he claims the Alter of Slobodko instituted a lot of them
A couple of years ago, someone from Baltimore, published a limit-edition copy where he demonstrated that many of the new Hanhugus were not practiced in Der Lita.
He also has grand plans to make a central Bes Din to solve all aguna and gitten problems.
If this book was popular(non-limited) the reaction to it would be interesting and fodder for many a blogger.
briskyeshivish.blogspot
Ner
You getting boring and corny
MAL and Snag
They aren't "copying" the GR"A. The Alter Rebbe had just as much a right to institute minhagim.
Enough with anonymous posts!
Tzig,
Stop being an ass and posting them.
If you can't bother to even choose a name, you have nothing of merit to say
Anonymous said...
MAL and Snag
"They aren't "copying" the GR"A. The Alter Rebbe had just as much a right to institute minhagim."
Oh my gosh. Where did you see me imply otherwise? Are you projecting what you think about the Gaon's minhugim?
Interesting
Anon
I am fully aware that in Lub they don't do 'noi succha' and the minhag is older than the last lub Rebbe.
Yes Tzig knows what my opinion is of the last Lub Rebbe, but I do respect him and his blog, I dont use this forum to attack the Rebbe. However since this is a discussion about minhagim and chabad I 'noted' how the Rebbe 'deals' with this particular issue as a one liner.
Which is strange since it is something that is mentioned in the mishna.
Since I agree also with those who opposed the Rebbe's reasoning of not sleeping in sucah I also mentioned it in passing. If you think I have 'chutzpa' for saying so, then I plead guilty.
As for minhagim in general, its a matter that people have in their DNA, I for one am very much bothered by any change. But I am also aware of chasidim (like) me really have no grounds to stand on, because they are historically the biggest violators of 1000nds year old minhagim.
Still by me, minhag means how my family behaved just prior to the holocaust. I can't let Hitler decide the fate of my family traditions. So be it lub, Mishna Brurah, Chazon Ish, Rav Fienstein R S Z Aurbach etc. I won't accept any of their chumros or kulos period no comma!
[the size of the Matzah I gave to my wife and kids was exactly the same as my father gave to my mother]
I conduct myself as much as possible according to what my 'father saw at home no more and I try no less.
That applies to Halacha and to the Shabbes and yontif foods. I did not have cheese kreplach this yontif and I was upset even though I had the fanciest cheese cakes to eat. I strive to uphoald the traditions of my family. I beleive that most who are sticklers for 'alte minhagim' do it for the same reasons I do. i.e. family pride and memory of the past.
The baal Hatanya was rather radical in his approach almost a slash and burn approach to long held established minhagim. But since most of klal yisroel is in awe of his greatness nobody can even question his authority to do so. But even chasidim simply didn't accept most of it, even though in chabad they follow it.
But the Rav explained most of his positions. But some are just not explained its just there in the siddur. i.e. the omission of zmiros shabbes, or the omission of חסל סידור from the hagada.
Tzig. you owe a thank you to the alte rebbe for not omitting the ונתנה תוקף
imagine that!
As for Radzin תכלת
For him it was halacha that was newly discovered and to him he was convinced 100% of being right about his discovery. That has nothing to do with our topic.
Yosef 718
Yosef
Since when is nusach Hatfila not Halacha? The Rambam put it in his sefer for a reason. The great baal Kav Venoki made a geonish sefer on the AR sidur, Yosef remember the AR nussach is not Mahar Mahar of the viznitzer nusach, its written by 1 of klal yisroel greatest genius, if he wouldn"t be a Rebbe and get balkanized by chasidic inside discrepencies he would be mush greater.
Yosef
Kevoido Shel Haniftar Bimkoimoi Munach. But its not the Radziners mehalach, He didn't shy from bigger stuff then this.If you ever read Truenks memoirs on the Radziner you will see even more of his fiesty streaks, The Great Reb Yidele of Zhikov a Viznitz SIL and a original on his merits davened the AR nussach and omited Tzur yisroel(according to Genuts diary)obviously he was a chosid that dared to tap others waters outside of the Maramorish, on his Krepel/Cheesecake prefrence I am not informed
Yosef
Tzig is a lucky dude by knowing your hashkafa on Lubavitcher Rebbi, and we are all losers since you are not publicising it on our Blog, what a Chaval
Yosef
The minhogim developmemt is not a straight line till Moshe Rebieni, the more you read the books Of Hamburger on Minhogei Ashkenaz you see that almost every minhag had seven lives with seven flavors. Nothing is etched in stone, Hamburger even dislikes the Remo for changing Minhogim in Poland,so your statement that the AR was forgiven because of his gadlus is sheer nonsense.Who forgave him the Komarner? what are you yaking? The misnagdishe world admired him more then any of his colleauges in the Ukraine/White Russia, By the Karliner a lamdan should be in Cherem (read Abish Shur In Beis Aron Veyisroel). Obviously thats why he was the ultimate target.Historicaly he gave a face for the Movement.
Anon *:15:
Tzig. you owe a thank you to the alte rebbe for not omitting the ונתנה תוקף
The Alter Rebbe did not publish a machzor, with ונתנה תוקף or without.
He wants to be part of klal yisroel and say צור ישראל קומה בעזרת ישראל ופדה...
The majority of klal yisroel don't say it. The reason is that the brocho is about Yetzias Mitzrayim, not the geuloh ho'asidoh.
It is not in the sidur Reb Amrom Goan one of the pillars of our nusach hasidur,also according to the Bnei Yisoscher in Magid Taluma it has a problem since it is a tefila and not a shevach.
Twerski+Grammen??
Some corrections on the Twerski grammen. The one depicted here was NOT sung at the wedding of Rabbi Posner's granddaughter. It was at the first Sheva Brochos, the following evening. At the wedding, there was a different set of grammen that was truly complimentary about Chabad. Even this one here was in jest. It was reported later that week that the Rebbe heard a tape of this within 24 hours of its performance. And no-one called up Rabbi Posner Z"L. That would have happened only if there was a mitzvah tantz, which is taboo in Chabad circles.
The handwritten version posted here is NOT Rabbi Twerski's handwriting. It seems to have been made from the recording, and thus allows for an additional source of error.
and how do YOU know all this?
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