Sunday, January 27, 2013

...ס'פאסירט אין די שענסטע משפחות




























It's causing quite a sensation, this story. The TAY Rebbe's grandson. The Kretschnifer's grandson. A Chabadnik. A Meshichist, נאך צו דערצו! And he's apparently some sort of mashpia as well! Truth be told, It's a bit embarrassing... The Meshichism part, that is. I hadn't heard of him before this week. But what can we say? Sometimes a bochur finds his place where his parents don't want it, and there's not much they can do, other than bite their tongues. The fact that this doesn't happen MORE OFTEN in Rebbishe kreizen is what should surprise people, not the other way around. Any half-serious kid that grows up in such a family should be banging the doors down trying to get out of there. He's tired of the infighting, the fawning over him when he just wants to be like any other kid, and the lack of privacy. Chabad is very often the antidote for any kid from suffering from OverRebbish disease. I do not really know what his zeides have to say about his transition, but judging from other such stories it's probably not a reason for them to rejoice. They like their eyniklech to follow in their ways.





75 comments:

azigra said...

from one nutty community to another.

Yerucham said...

nu tzig. Maybe he's right about being a mishichist. Reading the article, he doesn't seem like a shallow guy. Maybe there is more to it than you dare to admit. And it's true that there is a huge movement towards learning chassidus in E"Y. Things are moving. Are you with us or against us?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the movement towards learning Chassidus is DESPITE the Meshichism, ועל אפם וחמתם של התמהונים

moshe moshel said...

Who was "maavir oso midoso and midaaso" ? Was there weed involved? All one can do is feel sadness and sympathy for his family.

It doesn't seem like it was a move based on a great deal of intellectual stimulation.

Ma yaaseh haben shelo yechta.

Rochev Al Chamor said...

how does this avriech that learned a few perakim tanya know exactly Hilchas Moshiach better then Reb Zalmen Gopin or Reb yoel who was by the Rebbe from fay one.

Yerucham said...

How does Rochev Al Hachamor who learned a few maamorim know hilchos Melachim better than Rabbi Heschel Greenberg, a Gaon Olam in Nigleh.

There are geonim on both sides of the Meshichist debate.

And, Reb Yoel doesn't deny that the Rebbe could be Moshiach. He just argues that it isn't important in the general scheme of things.

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Yeruchem
" a Gaon Olam in Nigleh."
Rav Greenberg is a nice Talmid Chochem, but no Goan Olem
I read and I own all his seforim on Rambam hilchos Tefilin and on Chanuka.
But on hilchas melochim he did not say noting original at all.

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Yeruchem
I believe that Rav Greenberg knows more Nigleh then Reb Yoel,but does not have the clarity of Reb Yoel in Nigleh and Chasidus.
And for sure does not know the Rebbes way of thinking as well as Reb Yoel, as the Rebbe wrote in the famous Tzetel by the Rabonim saga

menachem said...

Reb Yoel in an interview with kfar chabad going back 5 or 6 years ago,accused the mishichistim to be worse than the maskilim,yezbeksa,etc.
Considering that most chabadskers are mishicihstim,isnt he agreeing with rav shach??????

Yerucham said...

So to summarize the position of Rochev al Hachamor:

"I'm an anti because Reb Yoel understands the Rebbe's position in Hilchos Melachim better than anyone else."

Got it.

חסיד said...

מה זה משנה מי ת"ח יותר גדול ?
זה פשוט אינו נכון רבנו "אינו" משיח .
ב"ה המגנט עובד !!
יחי המגנט !!!!!

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Menachem
"Reb Yoel in an interview with kfar chabad going back 5 or 6 years ago,accused the mishichistim to be worse than the maskilim,yezbeksa,etc.
Considering that most chabadskers are mishicihstim,isnt he agreeing with rav shach??????"
#1, you are taking his words out of context.
#2
most Chbadskers are not moshiachists.

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Yeruchem
I am not a Moshiachist, not because Reb Yoel, I can read simple words in Rambam with out the help of Reb Yoel. But to come now to Chabad and say different then Reb Yoel on issues that pertain chassidus and the Rebbe is ignorance and arrogance.
Like saying you know the Mitteler Rebbe better then Reb Hilel Paricher

Anonymous said...

nebach. but nebach an... is oich...

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Anon
"nebach. but nebach an... is oich..."
who is the Nebach? and why?

moshe moshel said...

He must make you feel good for joining your open tent exclusive club!

moshe moshel said...

Reb Yoel still has plenty of teshuva to do for fanning the messainism until gimmel tammuz. A one time simple "ta'isi" isn't enough to undo the damage.

Zalman Z said...

Tzig, give it up! He discovered Lubavitch, and guess what, they couldn't hide from him the Sichos of the Nuns (which you are apparently yet to discover)!

Either embrace the Rebbe fully, or go back to which ever kreiz you came from!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, Zalman Z, fully, not just less than 1 year's worth...

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"He must make you feel good for joining your open tent exclusive club!"
how big is your shtibel? what are the protocols that everyone have to follow.
I assume its very exciting.

Zalman Z said...

For the record, in that letter five years ago, Reb Yoel only lambasted those who write "Shlita," nothing else! The absence of any other criticism in that latter speaks volumes.

Besides, all those that know him (and i mean, ACTUALLY know him), know that he's a closet Mishichist. He even had a Yechi sign in front of his house until a few months ago when it was blocked by a new swinging chair they installed, so he had it removed as to not block the Rebbe's face. Nevermind the Moshiach flag (yes, the YELLOW type) that sits behind the couch in his living room, awaiting to be waved aloft when the Rebbe's nisgaleh...

Tzig, you're a professed "Lubavitch defender." But the Lubavitch you defend, is not one that i, or any other chossid who doesn't pick and chose which part of Chabad they like, would recognize. So thanks but no thanks!

moshe moshel said...

R Yayel is waiting to be appointed manhig like R Mottel Slonimer was.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Moshe Moshel drank too much banana liquer this Chamishooser"

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"Reb Yoel still has plenty of teshuva to do for fanning the messainism until gimmel tammuz. A one time simple "ta'isi" isn't enough to undo the damage. "
Dont tell for a yid as Reb Yoel to do teshuvah, look in mirror and repent for your own sins.
Reb Yoel have said already 20 times Toisi. But he still had to say before Gimel Tamuz what he felt, since he is not a politician

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Zalmen Z
"For the record, in that letter five years ago, Reb Yoel only lambasted those who write "Shlita," nothing else! The absence of any other criticism in that latter speaks volumes.

Besides, all those that know him (and i mean, ACTUALLY know him), know that he's a closet Mishichist. He even had a Yechi sign in front of his house until a few months ago when it was blocked by a new swinging chair they installed, so he had it removed as to not block the Rebbe's face. Nevermind the Moshiach flag (yes, the YELLOW type) that sits behind the couch in his living room, awaiting to be waved aloft when the Rebbe's nisgaleh..."
and if he is a Meshichist? then he is what????

Moshe Moshel said...

You realize that your response reveals I've struck a chord. He has about a qurter of the blame that a new Rebbe was not crowned after the Rebbes passing.

The Baal Shem had a replacement, the Alter Rebbe had a replacement, but not the "current?" Rebbe! What gives? It was similar to the maise of the meraglim, that didn't want to deal with a loss of power and influence.

The Rebbe was TRULY a unique leader but Moshe Rabeinu said already that klal yisroel should not be as sheep without a leader.

Dor hatishiyi needs a Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

rochev al chamor
I meant that Nebach this נער became chabad, and ק"ו that he became a mishichist ר"ל. and I concluded with the famous quote from Rav Chaim Brisker about 'נעבאך אן אפיקורס וכו

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Anon
"I meant that Nebach this נער became chabad, and ק"ו that he became a mishichist ר"ל"
why is he Naar that he became chabad? why is ר"ל that he is a Meshichist? and who certified you as the Chochem that decides on this issues? Did your mother tell you as a kid that you are Klug when you knew 7 of the 10 parsha questionnaire of you melamud?lets hear a devar chochme and all the readers will decide

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"The Rebbe was TRULY a unique leader but Moshe Rabeinu said already that klal yisroel should not be as sheep without a leader. "
Yehushoa did not replace Moshe Rebinie at all, he did not give no torah, he did not go up to Shumaim. Thir was no New Moshe Rebanie. Yehoshoa is not even from the Shiva royim,he was a technical leader, obviously a Novi as the 100'sof neviem that were after him.So if believed that a Rebbe is a holy concept, and if their is no Rebbe you close that concept for good, and you go back to the concept of Rabinim as Klal yisroel had all the years.

Moshe Moshel said...

Agav, I daven in a egalterian chasidishe minyan. No requirments.

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"You realize that your response reveals I've struck a chord. He has about a qurter of the blame that a new Rebbe was not crowned after the Rebbes passing."
Blame for what? for not lying?
If Reb Yoel would of wake up and get some Yenika with Diapers as a Rebbe and be is Chozer, then he would be guilty of something....

Rochev Al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"Agav, I daven in a egalterian chasidishe minyan. No requirments. "


Avda Behefkiera Nicha Lie

in the vanguard said...

You say:
"Sometimes a bochur finds his place where his parents don't want it, and there's not much they can do, other than bite their tongues."

Firstly, you speak with loose lips because you have no idea what HIS parents think of him. They, by the way, cannot be happier! They learned from him. Why right from the get-go, because the matter has to do with Moshiach, the crux of the Jewish religion, must you blindly fight tooth and nail to scorn the issue? Does it not behoove a Jew to first learn about the subject, learn about why this young man - who is of a great mind, you should know, came to his conclusions. He did not wake up one day and "pooff!' a Moshichist become. he toiled in Torah before he came to his eventual conclusion - unlike yours that was made as soon as you heard the association!

moshe moshel said...

Your boorish amaratzes is astounding to say the least.

Was Yehoshua the mamshich, memaleh makom? Different tafkid aside.

Are you throwing out the rest of Toras Habaal Shem too, or just the part of having a living breathing rebbe?

moshe moshel said...

Why is there no Rebbe? Because the power brokers decided not to make a new one.

in the vanguard said...

My agitated friend, I did not ask you what YOU thought, but rather what you think that young tzaddik thinks? How easily you sweep what I said under the rug, as long as you can raise yourself a little higher by stepping on someone.

aron kj said...

Yehushoa did not replace Moshe Rebinie at all, he did not give no torah, he did not go up to Shumaim. Thir was no New Moshe Rebanie. Yehoshoa is not even from the Shiva royim,he was a technical leader, obviously a Novi as the 100'sof neviem that were after him.So if believed that a Rebbe is a holy concept, and if their is no Rebbe you close that concept for good, and you go back to the concept of Rabinim as Klal yisroel had all the years.

עפרא לפומיה

Rochev Al chamor said...

Aron KJ
Afre Lepimeh,
Why are you so mad?
Did i say something wrong?

dovy in j said...

he's just a kid going through a phase. he'lll outgrow it by the time he hits puberty.

Rochav al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"Your boorish amaratzes is astounding to say the least.

Was Yehoshua the mamshich, memaleh makom? Different tafkid aside."
where is the am aratzois exactly?

Rochev al chamoir said...

Moshe Moshel
"Are you throwing out the rest of Toras Habaal Shem too, or just the part of having a living breathing rebbe?"
is this part of the Besht? or later rebbes? since you are the big chosid, can u give us a synopsis of what are the criterias of a Tzadik?Neshoma Kelolis? take it from the Meor einiem or Moar Veshomesh...
the only place where the Alte Rebbe discuuses hiskashrus at length, is on a Tzadik that is not alive. He writes about Tzadikim in early part of Tanya, but on Hikashrus he writes only on a Tzadik that is Yatir Mibechyoi...

Rochev al Chamor said...

in the vanguard
"who is of a great mind, you should"
what does this "Great Mind" know that we dont know?
Does he have a new peshat in the Rambams Veim Nehareg? or a new source fron 5 books of Geula? Whatever he will find outside of the sefer Hayad does not matter. According to the Rebbe its as kefira as saying Aschalta Degeula on the modern state of Israel. In his interview he is only repeating the cliches.
Bottom line currently the Rebbe is not Moshiach, and maybe he will be? but maybe the Alter rebbe will be too, and maybe the Ariza"l or the old Krechnifer?

rochev al chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"Because the power brokers decided not to make a new one. "
who are the power brokers? dont throw just names

Roche Al chamor said...

In the Vanguard
"unlike yours that was made as soon as you heard the association!"
I see that just this Great Mind. makes you mister know it all,yoiu know exactly why someone came to the rebbe?

in the vanguard said...

Chamor - I can offer you many anecdotes of this outstanding young tzaddik - but judging from the tenor of your words and your haughty self-proclaimed wisdom - you deserve none of it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

your very informative comment was מלא לה"ר רכילות ומוצש"ר
typical Bobover פלוידערזאק

Zalman Z said...

Chamor said,

"Does he have a new peshat in the Rambams Veim Nehareg?"

Umm... why do we have to deviate from the ACTUAL pshat - KILLED?

moshe moshel said...

Rochev al hachamor, efsher zaint ir de chamor aleins?

The mazkirus and the heads of a few mosdos, like agu"ch etc. Were the ones who could have started the process to crown a new Rebbe and chose not to. If a new Rebbe had been proclaimed imperitave by the likes of R Yoel, as in every chasidus that had to look for a succesor where there wasn't an abvious choice an apropriate candidate would have been found.

S'felt groise neshumos b'beis horav!?

moshe moshel said...

Thinking back to the heafy days of the nuns, when we heard daily reports from r butman about the rebbes condition and coronation. With the great general lubavitch certainty that the Rebbe was moshiach, even by those who didn't say yechi. The shock and speechlessness when the Rebbe actually died until the meshichisten founded a brand new theology on "afilu min hameisim". Those were the days of utter confoundedness and confusion which led to the current situation.

Rochev Al chamoir said...

In the vanguard
"but judging from the tenor of your words and your haughty self-proclaimed wisdom - you deserve none of it."
I always knew that Moshiach is for everyone, the Haughty,the Sick, The Rich, The Poor , The Stupid and the Baal Aviero. Veatem Tilkoti Echod Lechod..as the Rebbe used to say.
If you can not explain Moshiach for the whole universe, then you and your GREAT MIND are barking on the wrong Moshiach.

Rochev al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"Thinking back to the heafy days of the nuns, when we heard daily reports from r butman about the rebbes condition and coronation. With the great general lubavitch certainty that the Rebbe was moshiach, even by those who didn't say yechi. The shock and speechlessness when the Rebbe actually died until the meshichisten founded a brand new theology on "afilu min hameisim". Those were the days of utter confoundedness and confusion which led to the current situation. "
what is your chidush here? the its Butmans fault? or that the were confused for a while, and then got them self a new path. Is it now worse then then?

rochev Al Chamor said...

Moshe Moshel
"
The mazkirus and the heads of a few mosdos, like agu"ch etc. Were the ones who could have started the process to crown a new Rebbe and chose not to. If a new Rebbe had been proclaimed imperitave by the likes of R Yoel, as in every chasidus that had to look for a succesor where there wasn't an abvious choice an apropriate candidate would have been found."
So far they did not find a Neshoma, not from the bies horav and not from outside, so what should they do?
The Rebbe said that everyone should get a Rav and a Mashpia, and close shop on that concept.
Besides, all other Rebbes are Rebbes because the chasidim get for the Eigel Hazhov a wardrobe of multi colored Bekiches and 8" crown shtriemel with some black polished hubcaps SUV's
And he becomes the Neshoma Kelolis, and everybody knows the vort of the Premishlaner, that even if you believe in a 2x4, then he will make you mofsim.
In Chabad they dont have that mesorah, not in Mamorie Admor hazoken and not even in the Geniza...

moshe moshel said...

Lo yagata velo matzasa... Surprise.

Shtisser Roov said...

1) Rebbetzin Leah Kahn (nee Butman IIRC) is a meshichistke, and that is why the home still sports paraphernalia of a certain type. Anyone who knows anything about Reb Yoel knows he is not exactly the type to handle even the simplest do-it-yourself project, so the sign remains.

2) Who in the world could any so-called power brokers in Chabad appoint as Rebbe? They would have more power if they did find a rebbele whom they could manipulate.

dovy in j said...

a little off topic, but does nyone know if morah music is a meshichist? if yes, is it still alright to let my einekleach listen to her tapes? are there any meshichist messages in them?

Bar Minon said...

Give this gullible little punk two weeks in the presence of some high-intensity Latter Day Saint mashpiah, and I can assure you he'll come away swearing that L. Ron Hubbard is חי וקיים

Anonymous said...

Re Reb Yoel & Rebbetzin Leah Kahn's meshichism -- see Aruz 10's recent "expose" of Chabad, from timecode 37:45, particularly 40:20 & on:

http://chabadinfo.com/index.php?url=article_en&id=29763

If a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a million.

(Do note that Reb' Leah Kahn is the meshichist Rabbi Shmuel Butman's sister.)

-- ZIY

Groinem said...

You guys in Chabad should do better. I live in Lakewood. There are hundreds of yungeleit desperate for a little something extra in their life. Why is Chabad not attracting them? Do you know how many people become Breslovers in Lakewood? Why can't Chabad appeal to their intellectual side? Believe me, the hisnagdus is not as baked in as you would believe. I am personally fine with my misnagdishe life, but I would love to see Lakewood turned over by some 'choshuve yungeleit' going over to the dark side.

moshe moshel said...

Groinem, head over to south lake drive next yoma dipagra and have Der Ruv, Reb NG blow your mind. You will be willing walk across the unfrozen lake to hear him.

Groinem said...

Moshe
I am not looking for something myself. I said already that I am happy with my misnagdish life. I just wonder why Chabad is not attracting the disenchanted in Lakewood. Why is Breslov getting them?

Stichiner said...

Groinem
"I am not looking for something myself. I said already that I am happy with my misnagdish life. I just wonder why Chabad is not attracting the disenchanted in Lakewood. Why is Breslov getting them?"
if its not for you, then what does it bother you that they are into Breslov?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

really? Breslovers by the droves in Lakewood?

moshe msohel said...

Yes, breslovers by the droves. Stichin too.

Location location location.

Reb Nuchim, is on the other side of the lake. . .

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Stitchin, meileh, but Brelov? I think you exaggerate

pitputim said...

I'm not sure how somebody who learns can dismiss the קונטרס of יתבררו ויתלבנו by Rav Yechezkel Sofer. I found it intellectually honest and very clear. If you haven't read it, see here

http://chabad8.org/kontreisim-mug/

Rochev al Chamor said...

Pitputim
Rav Sofer put out a new version and its much better

Former Kan Tziva said...

does nyone know if morah music is a meshichist?
--
Very doubtful. She's just a mainstream Crown Heights lady who turned her hobby into a business.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why are MM's beliefs important anyway??

pitputim said...

Rochev Al Chamor,

I heard that he was under immense pressure after the original Kuntres. In what way is the updated version better? Is it available online or only via printed form.

Chosid said...

The individual in question explaining his story -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yh6DyB20H8

jeff levenstein said...

for the first time, scientific proofs are blended with scriptural sources to underpin Meshichistic ideology/faith. see the Amazon e book "The Rebbe is physically alive in this world".The famous double split experiment (quantum physics) is engineered into the equation with dynamic consequential ramifications

jeff levenstein said...

watched the video---there is compelling and persuasively emphatic evidence, that the soldiers in the field have assumed complete ideological control of Chabad. Simultaneously, those "at headquarters" manifest with indecisive sterility. All is for good and "meant to be", however the joyous ,Daas, driven energy of the Rebbe's soldiers manifests in stark and sad contrast to the 'front men" who appear insipid and strangled by protocol. The Rebbe encapsulates and embodies unflinching courage. His troops are gearing off this infinite energy and bravery (the folly of Holiness) and the essence of the soul----the intellect of which is infinitely greater than the restrictive parameters of physical, external logic (rational/tree of knowledge intellect) Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you! see Amazon e books "the Rebbe is physically alive in this world"___scientific and scriptural proofs

Anonymous said...

If You Need something extrain Lakewood Than Join Rabbi Yisroel Arye Knopfler of Lakewood He IsNot afraid of the Powerbrokers in Lakewood and is working on Bringing Chasidim to Lakewood To Break The bmg power monopoly

Anonymous said...

knofler continues to be a nobody; didnt go through the system. As for breslov not much of a following here . The bmg powerbrokers have lost the multitudes, although they can still turn out a big but skeptical crowd. Major leadership vaacume

Rochev said...

Pitputim
" In what way is the updated version better? Is it available online or only via printed form."
its available in stores