Monday, January 14, 2013

Brisker "Wikleaks" B O M B (Part II)

(Here's Part I from way back when)

This 32 page treasure full of lies, half-truths and distortions gives us a glimpse into the Ahavas Yisroel that many of the Gedolim had for their fellow Jews - especially Chassidishe Yidden, ובפרטי פרטיות אידן בעלי מסי"נ כמו חסידי חב"ד ורבותיהם נ"ע. And I've only read until page 3... Why do I call them lies, etc.? Because otherwise I have no choice but to lose all respect that I had for many of these Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva. What would you do in such a case? Comments asking me to decipher and type this up will be ignored, unless you send me your credit card information and allow me to charge it $35 an hour. I think that's reasonable for this type of work. If you're going to post this elsewhere or pass it around at least link back here.



For our non-Scribd users here's a link to Box, which is good with most filters as well.

49 comments:

moshe moshel said...

$35.00 an hour, hmmm, pretty cheap. I'll consider it. Do you have a minimum of hours that I'd have to order?

yoichy said...

"Why do I call them lies, etc.? Because otherwise I have no choice but to lose all respect that I had for many of these Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva"

Interesting logic.Because you don't like something it becomes a "lie"?

I haven't read anything yet, but i know that lubavitch has very little respect for others anyway, and you as a gevorener, have to prove your credentials even more than than your average lubavitcher "כאסיד"

joey said...

Why are you publishing , "lies, half truths and distortions"? You just want to be marbeh sinah, eh,? A typical Chabadsker
גדולה שנאה ששונאין עמי הארץ לתלמיד חכם, יותר משנאה ששונאין אומות העולם את ישראל

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

איר פארשטייט וואס דאַ טוט זיך? זיי האקען
האקען אַויף חסידים
און איך "פארשפרייט" שנאה

yankel said...

Sorry, I do typing for people and $35 an hour is way too much. The price is set by the character (in the U.S. Between $1.50 and $2 per thousand characters) or by the page (11 point type, 8.5 by 11 is $8).
This may have been written before the peace and love religion invented in the 60s, when hate became the biggest aveira.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you decipher scribbles like that for less? good for you. Be my guest. My time is worth 35 an hour.

Kovner said...

I've browsed through most of it, and the "juicy" part is very little. Plus, there's nothing new there.Anyone familiar with Brisk knows that they are very critical- including of people known as "gedolim". They also believe that there is nothing wrong with pointing out faults of "gedolim" to their talmidim. In fact there is a story told in Brisk Yeshiva, that one erev yom kippur after kol nidrei the Brisker Rov took a stroll for health reasons, and had his son-in-law R' Michel accompany him. And what did the Brisker Rov talk about? He started criticising someone! R' Michel was taken aback and gently hinted that on Yom Kippur night they should talk about something else. Responded the Brisker Rov: If what I'm sayng is ossur, then it should never be spoken, and if it's the right thing to do, then yom Kippur night is the time to do the right thing!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

there's a similar vort attributed to Reb Shmuel Munkes

Ish Hayochid Vehayachad said...

Did the Brisker ruv open 1 cheder? Did he open 1 mikveh? Did he establish a Mikveh? did he Establish a shechita Mrhuderes? Did he do 1 Motzi Yokor Mizolal?
or was a typical monday morning quarter backer?

moshe moshel said...

Barred AJ, mimayla, but derech eretz for the brisker rov!

Kovner said...

Also, tzig, why are you so taken aback? Didn't the Rebbes of Lubavitch also strongly criticize "other" yidden? Didn't the Rama"sh (or was it the Riyat"z)say that a simple chosid is on a higher level than the Chazon Ish in olam habah because the CI didn't learn pnimiyus? Isn't there a sichah where the Riyat"z describes the poilishe chassidim in a very derogetory way (I saw it myself)?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Kovner: I think it's a little different than speaking about individuals....

Shomer Emunim said...

Kovner
"Also, tzig, why are you so taken aback? Didn't the Rebbes of Lubavitch also strongly criticize "other" yidden? Didn't the Rama"sh (or was it the Riyat"z)say that a simple chosid is on a higher level than the Chazon Ish in olam habah because the CI didn't learn pnimiyus? "
is this the Hashkofa of the Lubavicher Rebbe only? or the Hashkofa of all Gedolim that were into penimius Hatorah?
Imagine attacking the Komarner in Shulchan Hatoher ( based on the Ariza"l)for saying whoever does not put on Tefilin Rebinie Taam, is a Karkafta.... So the little Tosher Bocher that puts on 2 pair tefilin, is mekayem Mitzvas Tefilin, but the chazon Ish, is not Mekayem Mitzvas Tefilin. There are circles that put down barriers that you can notbget in that Oilem if you did not do so and so.
Nobody that is sane and has no vested interest to create a stink, would take it with a grain of salt, But when you have to build barriers and political parties then this episodes become big mountains

Ish Hayochid Vehayachad said.. said...

Kovner
"Responded the Brisker Rov: If what I'm sayng is ossur, then it should never be spoken, and if it's the right thing to do, then yom Kippur night is the time to do the right thing!!"
Why are the halochas of Mechila placed in Shulchan Orech, as a deed that has to be done before Kol Nidrie? If it is a Must to be forgive and ask for apology then it has to be done Gimel Shevat just as well, and if not, then why do it before Kol Nidrie? It Seems that the poskim saw it different.
Or maybe the Rambam does not mention it regarding Yom Kippur in particular, and we Brisker are not Gierim and we have a Mesorah (old 40 years) that we pasken according the Rambam

dovy said...

איר פארשטייט וואס דאַ טוט זיך? זיי האקען
האקען אַויף חסידים
און איך "פארשפרייט" שנאה
----------------------------------
Tzigaleh, you are not very smart, and I"m sure I"m not the first guy to tell you that.
Who is hacking on chasidim? Some anonymous unknown writer who wrote some handwritten notes?

dovy said...

"Kovner: I think it's a little different than speaking about individuals."

Uhuh,
Disparaging a WHOLE group is better.
Nice.
You are a very logical guy
(in the lubav, moshe kapoyer way)
lol, what a crock

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Dovy

when does 2nd seder start in BMG?

select profile said...

340

But my wife thinks @ 4

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what's worse? to say that Dovy is a thief and a cheat and to tell stories of how he's so, or to say that all frum Jews are evil? I say the former

dovy said...

Unfortunately I never learned in bmg or brisk and I have bills and dependants
So no 4 o clock seder sheni

dovy said...

Hirshel
nice attempt at "tzvei dinim"
Brisk is live and well in lubavitch I c

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

hard to believe that you find yourself in the outside world, Dovy. Based on your childish comments, that is, and also the time that you comment.....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it's probably in its purest form in Lubavitch.... without the shtick.

dovy said...

Hrshel,
u know full well that lubavitch has had many pearls to say about personalities they did not like including one about one of the greatest mechabrim from hundreds of years ago in Italy who."s beard was nit ling enough

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and now we see that all sides have pearls...

dovy said...

U are in the Olin hamseh and commenting at the same time

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it's not the fact that you're commenting, Dovy, it's WHAT you're saying. Shoyn.

Superintendant Chalmers said...

See page 14 of the file for a mayseh from the recently departed Rav Brevda zt"l.

rebcharles said...

OK, lets start with the basics. I hope that this will be billed at less than $35.

Who is writing to him, and is he quoting anybody? Also, what is the date?

If you can answer this simple question, then your reward will be more questions.

Matan Skhuruh Be'Tziduh

dovy in jersey said...

just to clarify. that dovy that was commenting here is not me.

berl, crown heights said...

1. "maran" sounds like a first-class a-hole;
2. handwriting is childish and ugly, written by dim-witted ans primitive man.

Reb Hirsh said...

The Italian was one of the greatest mechabrim from hundreds of years ago ? And Lubavitch was the one who didn't like his beard ?

What type of burritos did you eat today that is causing you to spew your idiocy with such venom ?

Roiv ruboi of the oilam didn't accept him, not then and certainly not the oilam who was oisek btoiras hasoid, and later on the talmidei Habesht !!

His renaissance came about much later on, with the advent of the mussar movement etc.

Dude, open a book occasionally and read up on some history.

gytr said...

Berl
where have u been?

Shmeryl Tzeitelbeitel said...

Well I for one may take pride in the fact that I listen to the Gdeolei HaDor finem Kinus Klal Yisroel, and in particular the manhig yisroel HaRosh Yeshiva R' Malkiel Kotler and do not have unfiltered internet. Scribed is blocked by KosherNet. Isnt it hashguche prutis? I cant see this lushen horeh against the malachim hakdoishim miBrisk, heichal kodsheinu. By listening to the gdolei yisroel I am spared from the motzi shem ra and lushen hora against (or from) Brisk.

Kovner said...

There is a famous letter from the Chazon ish printed in the Igros where he wrotes that it's very important to know the exact level of talmidei chachomim, and is therefore permitted to describe that level even if it entails loshon hora. I heard from a reliable source that the Greiniman family has a "secret" booklet where they recorded comments from the CI about various people, some derogatory.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but Shmeryl I posted the link to box.com, which I believe is allowed even on KosherNet

Kovner said...

The main "bomb" in these notes is that not every talmid chochom is nececarily a manhig, and some held that R' Issur Zalman zt"l was soft and temimusdik and therfore not fit to be a manhig. Nu. Rav AJ has continued this tradition and declared that R' Chaim Kunyefsky therefore does not fit the criteria of being a manhig. Let everyone decide for himself.If you feel he's right, then listen to R' Aron Leib shlit"a who is very on the ball. If you feel that R' Chaim is so holy that he has siyata dishmaya in all that he does then follow him.

Dirshu said...

Kovner
"There is a famous letter from the Chazon ish printed in the Igros where he wrotes that it's very important to know the exact level of talmidei chachomim, and is therefore permitted to describe that level even if it entails loshon hora. "
is this a Halachic pesak and on the same page with the Chofetz Chaim? or a emotional pesak? if its halachic then you think we should pasken like that. Why dont Yated, Hapeles, Maseh Ish, put in loshen horeh on the Chazon Ish, because we need to know and decide.

Kovner said...

It's a halachah. The CI held that just like one is permitted to advise between doctors which doctor is better and expain why even if it entails loshon hora, it is permitted to explain why one talmid chochom should be followed over another. Just read any mizrachi or MO halachah article and you will see how right the chazon ish was. When discussing different views in halachah, "all rabbonim are created equal", and they give the same weight to any young rabbi as to a posek hador.

Dirshu said...

Kovner
Why were the Chazon Ishniks so mad on Benny browns book, when he aired some struggles in his life, Leshitosom,he did the right thing, by airing it and let the public judge,
On 1 point you are correct, on the MO way of Pesak, but on the other hand, the biographies that they write is more critical and truthfull, so if he quotes a pesak of some godal you still can decide if to use the pesak, since you have a honest bigraphy on him. But with the Artscroll/Aron surasky style hagiograhy,all are from the same cookie cutter, and its impossible to see the Klie Ilan or the Techeles

Kovner said...

The problem was that Brown built a whole derogatory theory on some vague words of the CI which didn't fit with the CI that people knew. And indeed, Brisk laughs at the artscrollization of gedolim. But the truth is it's impossible to present a biography with loshon horas that are many times subjective and also involve living people who will be hurt etc. And anyway the masses have no need for this loshon hora, and those who need to know have ways of finding out.

Kovner said...

Once you stop hagiographies,you're opening up a Pandora's box. On the one hand, I believe that Deutch's book on the Lubavitcher rebbe gave me very good insight into his personality. It was honest, only stories, and well researched. If only all biographies would be like that!But then you have the Friedman biography of the Rebbe where it's filled with the authors writing what they think went through the Rebbe's head. I don't buy that.That's the problem if you veer off the troden path.

Dirshu said...

Kovner
I think that this letter was a mistake of the Grieniman family to print it, it is basically not intended for consumption of the masses. I heard lately a argument that even the Emuna Ubetuchen was intended for elite crowd, especially his critic of the way the world thinks of Bitochan. Thats not the issue now, but Chazal say that if ever you saw a Talmid Chochem Sheover Aviero at night, you should not have thoughts about it at day.For sure that you are not permited to talk about it. So we see that Chazal had a different view on guarding the dignity of a Talmid chochem, they were definitely against keeping a black book with loshan hora on Gedolim.
I think its a mistake and should never have been printed, it was a Eis Laisos letter ... but not as a derech lerabim

Dirshu said...

Kovner
"The problem was that Brown built a whole derogatory theory on some vague words of the CI which didn't fit with the CI that people knew."
My argument is not if its true or false,( I take no sides) its against the whole concept of the Chazon Ishniks who write against Brown for having the Chutzpa, to analyze a Godal in a critical fashion

Dirshu said...

Kovner
"Once you stop hagiographies,you're opening up a Pandora's box"
but according the letter of the CI, this was his will

Kovner said...

Brown is also guilty of guessing what was in the CI's mind. The CI was only for an objective specific criticism.

yankel said...

I have never seen any criticism on Brown's book. Could someone post a link.
The story with RAK and the LR, for example, is quoted by a known liar. I am originally from London and we always knew he is not to be trusted. For some reason Brown considers him an authority.
Hirschel - the sun in Crown Heights shines brighter, the chulent is greasier, the vodka stronger, the bathrooms in 770 smell like roses, the mikva is wetter and hotter, the shoelaces stay tied, noses wipe themselves and food stamps applications shorter. All in Kan tziva.

Anonymous said...

לכבוד ה"ה וכו' וכו' הרב צבי ציג, ה' עליו יחיה.
חאטש אז מסתמא דאס האט נישט געווען דיין כונה, מכ"מ דו האסט משמח געווען אסאך אסאך ליטווישער אידען וואס האבען געווען ממש אויף געלעבט צו זעען אריגינעלע פרישע סחורה פון רבותינו הקדושים מבריסק. וואס על כל טפה וטפה חדשה כלתה נפשינו. בעט איך דיר אויב דו האסט ביכולתך צו באוויזען מער בריסקער סחורה, אפי' אויב ס'איז נישט זאכען וואס דו האסט א באזונדערע אינטערעס אין דעם. פון דעסט וועגען ביטע אל תמנע טוב מבעליו! איך בעט בכל לשון של בקשה אז דו זאלסט דאס מפיץ זיין מיר זאלען אלע קענען הנאה האבען.
בכבוד רב,
תלמיד(י) ישיבת בריסק

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

לתלמיד(י) ישיבת בריסק הע"י

דאס איז בפירוש יע געווען עכ"פ א חלק
פון מיין כוונה

און אי"ה וועט בעתיד (הקרוב) קומען נאך סחורה