It doesn't make sense that he was born Yisroel Boruch and then dropped the Yisroel when he became a talmid of the Baal Shem Tov, because the entry in the Liozner pinkas is from before then, so why isn't he listed there as Yisroel Boruch? It makes much more sense to say that he added the name Yisroel later, after he moved to Hungary, perhaps when he was sick, and that nobody named after him carries this name because they didn't know about it.
What bothers me more is that if R Boruch's shver's name was R Kaddish, the son-in-law of R Moshe Posner, then what are we to do with the whole story about R Avrohom der Gertner?
And what about the kepeida on R Chaim Avrohom, that he was named after the Malach and not his zeideh; was that kepeida from R Boruch's shver, or from his father?
regarding the name Yirsroel Borech, you have Reb Yeshye Horowitz claiming, that he heard from his father ( Chabad chasidim many generations) all the time that he had both names.
Millhouse "t makes much more sense to say that he added the name Yisroel later, after he moved to Hungary, perhaps when he was sick, " I was thinking the same, I assume this the logical answer.
I am also bothered about the fact that the name Kadish doesn't make another appearance in the family again. I think that one might be more logical in questioning the mesora of anshei Solish (or whatever the name is) about the identity of the niftar then the mesora of the FR regarding the names in HIS own family...
As for the record in the pinkas of the Liozna ch"k – the name there is Boruch, not Yisroel Boruch! (Why isn't he bothered by this, or did I miss something?)
I do have a crazy idea about the name Avrohom instead of Shn"z – maybe this is one of ways the nistar R' Boruch was hiding his identity in his youth and it remained his kinnui? After all, aren't all yidden bnei Avrohom?
The Rebbe's interest in research is no proof at all that he accepted any of the results that contradict the FR's account on the subject.
what's hard to believe is that a direct descendant, BaB, of a man who sat in PRISON because of the cherem haGro, would not quote Chassidishe Seforim???
so let me get this straight, all non-frum jews are "arrogant and disrespectful"? actually it is quite the opposite: א גלח איז פרום א ייד איז ערליך or 'frum': איז ראשי תיבות וויל רשעות וויינעג מצוות
Re. the name avrohom on the matzeiveh, it is likely that they wrote it in lieu of his fathers name which he would not divulge.
Furthermore with regards to the name boruch ben avrohom in liozna it is likely that it is referring to his father in law who lived in liozna.
The Frierdiker Rebbe was mekabel from Razo, who was mekabel from R' Nochum (ben admur ho'emtzo'ee) that R' Boruchs father was s"z son of moshe.
RSZ was likely born in pozna and emigrated with his father to minsk. he later lived in vitebsk. He was the son in law of r' boruch batlan of sefardic descent after whom r' boruch was named. According to the frierdiker rebbe he had a brother in law named kadish. This is all documented extensively. Why he would not refer to it at all is a mystery.
What would help is if there are any records of a shneur zalman in the vitebsk cemetary
27 comments:
See here:
http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/pdf/tcrtz.pdf
chapters 1 and 2
If I'm not mistaken there's a discussion in hamelech bimisibo about Baruch - Yisroel Baruch.
It doesn't make sense that he was born Yisroel Boruch and then dropped the Yisroel when he became a talmid of the Baal Shem Tov, because the entry in the Liozner pinkas is from before then, so why isn't he listed there as Yisroel Boruch? It makes much more sense to say that he added the name Yisroel later, after he moved to Hungary, perhaps when he was sick, and that nobody named after him carries this name because they didn't know about it.
What bothers me more is that if R Boruch's shver's name was R Kaddish, the son-in-law of R Moshe Posner, then what are we to do with the whole story about R Avrohom der Gertner?
And what about the kepeida on R Chaim Avrohom, that he was named after the Malach and not his zeideh; was that kepeida from R Boruch's shver, or from his father?
regarding the name Yirsroel Borech, you have Reb Yeshye Horowitz claiming, that he heard from his father ( Chabad chasidim many generations) all the time that he had both names.
Millhouse
"t makes much more sense to say that he added the name Yisroel later, after he moved to Hungary, perhaps when he was sick, "
I was thinking the same, I assume this the logical answer.
I am also bothered about the fact that the name Kadish doesn't make another appearance in the family again. I think that one might be more logical in questioning the mesora of anshei Solish (or whatever the name is) about the identity of the niftar then the mesora of the FR regarding the names in HIS own family...
As for the record in the pinkas of the Liozna ch"k – the name there is Boruch, not Yisroel Boruch! (Why isn't he bothered by this, or did I miss something?)
I do have a crazy idea about the name Avrohom instead of Shn"z – maybe this is one of ways the nistar R' Boruch was hiding his identity in his youth and it remained his kinnui? After all, aren't all yidden bnei Avrohom?
The Rebbe's interest in research is no proof at all that he accepted any of the results that contradict the FR's account on the subject.
http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=49308
levaya of r shloma brevda. mittah covered in chabadsker tallis. anyone know why?
He was from Crown Heights, after all...
Gotto have a deeper pshat than that!
Was there any mention of chassidishe seforim at all in his shmuessen? he was a eynikel of Reb Chaikel Hamdurer after all!
I was once at a shmuz in a yeshiva that he walked out in middle of, as a protest to the lack of decorum.
R' Brevda zt"l was the biggest expert in the writings of the Gr"a. Hard to believe he'd quote chassidishe seforim.
what's hard to believe is that a direct descendant, BaB, of a man who sat in PRISON because of the cherem haGro, would not quote Chassidishe Seforim???
Kovner
"R' Brevda zt"l was the biggest expert in the writings of the Gr"a"
in Nigleh?or Kabala and Mussar?
" not to mention the fact that Rebbe knows best anyway."
Look, once you use "the rebbe knows best" card, what is the discussion?
In all writings of the Gr"a, including manuscripts.
so let me get this straight, all non-frum jews are "arrogant and disrespectful"?
actually it is quite the opposite:
א גלח איז פרום א ייד איז ערליך
or 'frum':
איז ראשי תיבות וויל רשעות וויינעג מצוות
Fievel
"not to mention the fact that Rebbe knows best anyway."
Look, once you use "the rebbe knows best" card, what is the discussion?"
Dont chazal discuss the Daas Bies Shamai, its Lehagdil Torah Ulehadiro Le
well, Feivel
w can discuss what the Rebbe says/said and decide if he would agree based on new findings or not
If the Rebbe had a mesores about something, how could new findings effect that?
How can you decide what the Rebbe would agree to or not?
we can't decide, but we can discuss
Can you go back to posting material on SCRIBD again? This BOX program never works for me :(
and then all the guys with filters will tell me that they can't access scribd... what do I do?
get ye back to the Asifa!
Yisroel Baruch Schneerson (B"R M"M ben Mahara"sh according to article (b. 5664) not Ginzburg although I like that haashureh...
YT Sheini
Thank You, YT Sheini. It has since been corrected. It's getting so you mamesh can't believe what you read any more!
Re. the name avrohom on the matzeiveh, it is likely that they wrote it in lieu of his fathers name which he would not divulge.
Furthermore with regards to the name boruch ben avrohom in liozna it is likely that it is referring to his father in law who lived in liozna.
The Frierdiker Rebbe was mekabel from Razo, who was mekabel from R' Nochum (ben admur ho'emtzo'ee) that R' Boruchs father was s"z son of moshe.
RSZ was likely born in pozna and emigrated with his father to minsk. he later lived in vitebsk. He was the son in law of r' boruch batlan of sefardic descent after whom r' boruch was named. According to the frierdiker rebbe he had a brother in law named kadish. This is all documented extensively. Why he would not refer to it at all is a mystery.
What would help is if there are any records of a shneur zalman in the vitebsk cemetary
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