Wednesday, January 9, 2013

"New revelations" about the Alter Rebbe's Yichus to the MaHaRaL?



 Historian/Genealogist Reb Naftoli Aron Vekshtein is certainly a very respected חוקר יחוס. Maybe the best. The fact that he's frum also works in his favor; he has the necessary respect for the personalities he researches and for other Rabbonim and Tzaddikim, even if he reaches different conclusions, which helps his acceptance among people like yours truly. The non-frum simply are arrogant and disrespectful, they know better than anybody - not so here. Vekshtein quotes the Rebbe extensively, but reaches a different conclusion, even quoting the Rebbe who he says was always looking for more information about Reb Boruch the AR's father, so here he is giving that information.... Having said that - and I'm a total amateur here - it seems to an amateur like me that he's shooting the arrow first and then drawing the bull's eye, to use an overused cliche'. Much of what he concludes is based on his choice who he prefers to believe - one eynikel of the Rebbetzin Rivka over another, (i.e. Yisroel Ber Ginsberg Schneersohn ben Chaya Mushka Menachem Mendel ben MaHaRaSH) an old timer who heard it in his hometown, and so forth. Obviously a Lubavitcher Chossid chooses to believe his Rebbe, who also says that he heard it from the RR - not to mention the fact that Rebbe knows best anyway.

See Chapters 1&2 of Reb Berel Levin's תולדות חב"ד ברוסיא הצארית

 There are several items here that differ from accepted Chabad opinions - some of them he doesn't even bother to note when he mentions them!

 1) Was it Boruch or Yisroel Boruch?

 2) Was Reb Boruch's father Schneur Zalman - as per Hayom Yom, or was it Avrohom?

 3) Was the AR a Ben achar Ben of the MaHaRaL, as per Hayom Yom? (Was he bichlal a descendant?)

 4) When was the AR born, was it Chai Elul תק"ה as per Hayom Yom, or another date?

 5) Is the Matzeivoh in Selish/Sevlus/Vinogradov the AR's father?

Much of what RNAV concludes is based on the Matzeivoh in סעליש that says ישראל ברוך ב"ר אברהם, ח' תשרי תקנ"ב. The Mesorah in that town was that this is Reb Boruch's מקום מנוחה, and an ohel was built there some 10 years ago. Yet, practically, nowhere in Chabad literature will you see the name Yisroel mentioned. RNAV seems to think that the name was dropped by Reb Boruch since he was a talmid of the BeSHT andit was not befitting to be called בשם רבו. But if that were the case the that tidbit should have been mentioned when mentioning RB. Also, despite the fact that the date of RB's passing is debated by virtue of the fact that the AR's descendants were only named Boruch from a later date; yet nobody mentions - as far as I could tell - that none of them were named Yisroel Boruch! Another point not mentioned is that if the AR's zeide was Avrohom and not Schneur Zalman, where did he get the name Schneur Zalman from? They just pulled it out of a hat? And despite the fact that the date of the AR's birth is not discussed and argued in this kuntres, he does make mention of the date תק"ז, which some use as his DOB. Truth be told I was relieved to see that he decided that the Yichus - although not Ba"B - is confirmed even by Monday morning QBs... היינטיגע טעג קען מען דאך גארנישט נישט וויסן... There's much more to discuss on this topic, but in the interest of time let's get this out now. Discuss.




































Reb Boruch's Matzeivoh in Sevlus. 

Photo and PDF from Yiddish Velt

27 comments:

Eli Rubin said...

See here:

http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/pdf/tcrtz.pdf

chapters 1 and 2

yitzchok said...

If I'm not mistaken there's a discussion in hamelech bimisibo about Baruch - Yisroel Baruch.

Milhouse said...

It doesn't make sense that he was born Yisroel Boruch and then dropped the Yisroel when he became a talmid of the Baal Shem Tov, because the entry in the Liozner pinkas is from before then, so why isn't he listed there as Yisroel Boruch? It makes much more sense to say that he added the name Yisroel later, after he moved to Hungary, perhaps when he was sick, and that nobody named after him carries this name because they didn't know about it.

What bothers me more is that if R Boruch's shver's name was R Kaddish, the son-in-law of R Moshe Posner, then what are we to do with the whole story about R Avrohom der Gertner?

And what about the kepeida on R Chaim Avrohom, that he was named after the Malach and not his zeideh; was that kepeida from R Boruch's shver, or from his father?

foot note said...

regarding the name Yirsroel Borech, you have Reb Yeshye Horowitz claiming, that he heard from his father ( Chabad chasidim many generations) all the time that he had both names.

foot note said...

Millhouse
"t makes much more sense to say that he added the name Yisroel later, after he moved to Hungary, perhaps when he was sick, "
I was thinking the same, I assume this the logical answer.

berl, crown heights said...

I am also bothered about the fact that the name Kadish doesn't make another appearance in the family again. I think that one might be more logical in questioning the mesora of anshei Solish (or whatever the name is) about the identity of the niftar then the mesora of the FR regarding the names in HIS own family...

As for the record in the pinkas of the Liozna ch"k – the name there is Boruch, not Yisroel Boruch! (Why isn't he bothered by this, or did I miss something?)

I do have a crazy idea about the name Avrohom instead of Shn"z – maybe this is one of ways the nistar R' Boruch was hiding his identity in his youth and it remained his kinnui? After all, aren't all yidden bnei Avrohom?

The Rebbe's interest in research is no proof at all that he accepted any of the results that contradict the FR's account on the subject.

moshe moshel said...

http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=49308

levaya of r shloma brevda. mittah covered in chabadsker tallis. anyone know why?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

He was from Crown Heights, after all...

moshemoshel said...

Gotto have a deeper pshat than that!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Was there any mention of chassidishe seforim at all in his shmuessen? he was a eynikel of Reb Chaikel Hamdurer after all!

selct profile said...

I was once at a shmuz in a yeshiva that he walked out in middle of, as a protest to the lack of decorum.

Kovner said...

R' Brevda zt"l was the biggest expert in the writings of the Gr"a. Hard to believe he'd quote chassidishe seforim.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what's hard to believe is that a direct descendant, BaB, of a man who sat in PRISON because of the cherem haGro, would not quote Chassidishe Seforim???

footnote said...

Kovner
"R' Brevda zt"l was the biggest expert in the writings of the Gr"a"
in Nigleh?or Kabala and Mussar?

feivel said...

" not to mention the fact that Rebbe knows best anyway."

Look, once you use "the rebbe knows best" card, what is the discussion?

Kovner said...

In all writings of the Gr"a, including manuscripts.

Anonymous said...

so let me get this straight, all non-frum jews are "arrogant and disrespectful"?
actually it is quite the opposite:
א גלח איז פרום א ייד איז ערליך
or 'frum':
איז ראשי תיבות וויל רשעות וויינעג מצוות

Foot Note said...

Fievel
"not to mention the fact that Rebbe knows best anyway."

Look, once you use "the rebbe knows best" card, what is the discussion?"
Dont chazal discuss the Daas Bies Shamai, its Lehagdil Torah Ulehadiro Le

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

well, Feivel

w can discuss what the Rebbe says/said and decide if he would agree based on new findings or not

moshe moshel said...

If the Rebbe had a mesores about something, how could new findings effect that?

How can you decide what the Rebbe would agree to or not?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

we can't decide, but we can discuss

Anonymous said...

Can you go back to posting material on SCRIBD again? This BOX program never works for me :(

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and then all the guys with filters will tell me that they can't access scribd... what do I do?

Yanover said...

get ye back to the Asifa!

Anonymous said...

Yisroel Baruch Schneerson (B"R M"M ben Mahara"sh according to article (b. 5664) not Ginzburg although I like that haashureh...

YT Sheini

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Thank You, YT Sheini. It has since been corrected. It's getting so you mamesh can't believe what you read any more!

Anonymous said...

Re. the name avrohom on the matzeiveh, it is likely that they wrote it in lieu of his fathers name which he would not divulge.

Furthermore with regards to the name boruch ben avrohom in liozna it is likely that it is referring to his father in law who lived in liozna.

The Frierdiker Rebbe was mekabel from Razo, who was mekabel from R' Nochum (ben admur ho'emtzo'ee) that R' Boruchs father was s"z son of moshe.

RSZ was likely born in pozna and emigrated with his father to minsk. he later lived in vitebsk. He was the son in law of r' boruch batlan of sefardic descent after whom r' boruch was named. According to the frierdiker rebbe he had a brother in law named kadish. This is all documented extensively. Why he would not refer to it at all is a mystery.

What would help is if there are any records of a shneur zalman in the vitebsk cemetary