(Credit - YWN archives)
I'd like to apologize to my faithful readers for being slow in posting this week, there have been numerous impediments, most of which we've overcome, b"H. I hope to continue from now on a more steady pace.
In my humble opinion part of the growing-up process is readjusting many of your long-held beliefs. If it hasn't happened to you yet, and you think it should have, then you need to get out more and broaden your circle of friends. Just listening to nonchalant conversations can do wonders for you. Meeting different kinds of people helps too, as well as actually striking up conversations with them. The same goes for all of you too. One of those beliefs may have been that only you and your friends have ALL the right answers for every problem that may arise. Once you get out you may realize that surprisingly enough there are others that may have better solutions. In the realm of chinuch there are many different approaches when it comes to raising children, some more strict than others, all seemingly with the same end goal, yet with very different approaches and success rates.
In America, or at least in New York, the yeshivishe oylem has taken the approach that what can be taught mit shlechten can be taught mit gutten as well. There's no need to beat the fear of G-d into children when it can be done with love and respect. They've decided that the fact that a child is drawn to the more mundane doesn't mean that he won't outgrow it as an adult with just a nudge in the other direction. I dare say they have it right. They allow kids to be kids, and even when there is an issue later on allow him to be an adult. For some reason that has been lost on the Chassidishe/Hungarian crowd. I guess they see their record and deem it a success. The fact that they all dress the same is all it takes; that says it all. If only it were that simple. If not for the fact that mosdos today are afraid of the authorities who knows what would happen, kids might be just as terrified to go to yeshiva as they were 20 years ago.
There are signs that things are changing, and maybe not for the better. The Israeli influence has taken over and many parts and it now has become fashionable to go around screaming about infractions that we could look away at, since we knew that in the greater scheme of things they don't really matter.You may have read the blurb about the Tznius gathering in Lakewood at which hundreds and maybe thousands attended. The fact that they gather to discuss it is a good things, although it probably is one of the things which HaTznius Yofoh Lohem, but the tone and the "ideas" that came out of the meeting is what bothered me. Not to knock anybody personally, but the fact that brought Rabi Waxman from Monsey, a somewhat angry fellow, shows me that the undercurrent is one of anger, and that's never a good thing. People who are angry generally have ulterior motives or are insincere, it's not K'vod Shomayim they're after, and the whole idea is then for the all the wrong reaons. All that is beside the fact that it's mostly preaching to the choir.
This and other happenings tell me that all those years of bachurim (and meidlach) learning in Israel and feeling inferior to their brethren and sisteren (is that a word?) there has taken its toll, and the days of easy-going friendly chinuch in litvishe circles may be limited. I certainly hope not. I like the fact that the melamdim are friendly to the children while still imparting good values and maintaining the necessary between Rebbe and Talmid. It works wonders for children for years to come. If that were to change, and they'd become like the nervous Hungarian melamdim I had then we're in great trouble, because there would be no respite from the chinuch terror that goes in some places. Having said that, when it came to choosing a day camp for my son, I chose a yeshivishe place that I was very happy to see had good, frum, yet happy-go-lucky Rebbes and direcors. That's right. Hirshel Tzig's son is in a yeshivishe day camp. Chabad has no camp in my town. He'll survive with his Lubavitchkeit intact, G-d willing.
36 comments:
I did not find Rabbi Eachsman's speech to be angry. I like his drashos, I find them uplifting.
What is the shailah? Of course yeshivaleit will not chep with the chinuch a child is getting at home. And I can only hope that if I sent my kid to a Chabad camp it would be the same, but I am not as confident.
While a specific point has been isolated (how Mechanchim and their charges relate to each other), it is virtually impossible to ignore the wider approach of analyzing the past re Chinuch, re Tznius, re enforcing Halacha, re the role of a Kehila, re the role of Askanim, re the role of Manhigim (Rav/RY/Gadol), and many many other sub-topics.
Additionally, one must examine the influences of: pop culture, modern trends in psychology, the news, the internet, the blogs, the Chassidishe courts, Litvishe Yeshivos (with strong identities and values), political blocs in EY Chareidi politics (R' Elyashiv-Deutch, R' Shteinaman-R' Kanievsky, the R' Shachistin etc. etc.) who have direct influence on our culture, the modern/open/other-orthodox, and Chabad and Breslov.
Only with a clear and concise understanding of the many issues at play, and a mutual comprehension of the various outlooks, can an intelectual dialogue be possible between people of differing opinions.
A) For your info. This picture is in LA.
B) You come across more angry than Rabbi Waxman. I've heard him many times. He raises his voice, but he's is no angry person.
C) Just wondering out loud. What will it sound like when the Lubabs will have a tznius kinus?
Informational question to those in the charedi community.
How is tzniut being defined in the gatherings (clothing? lifestyle? honors?...)?
Where does tzniut fall in the hierarchy of issues facing the charedi community (i.e what other issues have a kinus etc.)?
KT
Joel Rich
Lubavitch yeshivas arent as tolerant as they used to be either. The Isreali influence is there as well.
" If that were to change, and they'd become like the nervous Hungarian melamdim I had then we're in great trouble, because there would be respite from the chinuch terror that goes in some places."
Did you mean to write "there would be respite" or "there would be no respite" ? I think the latter.
Anyway, I am happy to read that you are seeing some good things in the Litvishe velt.
Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky actually suggested a Vaad Hatznius for Lakewood. Knowing how that has worked in Kiryas Yoel, does anyone think that this is a good idea?
Here is the link to hear the speakers at the Lakewood Tznius gathering:
http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/multimedia.php?Search=Audio&keyw=asifah
What does that pic have to do with your posting?
when the rabbonim start harping about ttznius in CH chairs will fly at them from the ezras noshim...
kan tziva chick
no respite, yes.
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/brethren
Much of successful living in this world is a product of synthesizing ideas, creating a harmony of values, or what the Rambam calls the Golden Path, the middle way. Tiferes is a combination of opposites merged together to create a harmonious beauty.
Unfortunately today, we see more extremism develop within the world at large, and the Jewish Orthodox community is not immune. Instead of a colorful synthesis, we find values expressed in very stark blacks and whites with virtually no room for shades of gray in between.
Charedi Judaism has evolved into a very distinct form, broken into sects, with grandiose self definitions and condescending tolerance towards others. ("We are definitely the truth, the others are nebech.”)
I think it is the nature of Charedi anything to ultimately self implode. It starts with the children falling through the cracks, the children at risk, and eventually the breakaways. I consider that the Charedi movements will eventually be marginalized, and a more modernized orthodoxy will once again come to the forefront. A modern approach to orthodoxy, which can even be found in some chasidic and yeshiva circles, will be a harbinger of a much more pleasant future for the Jewish people.
Rabbi Wachsman may tend to get angry, but he is not an angry man and there is a big difference.
We need to go buy the Freifeld book and learn about proper, happy, fulfilling chinuch.
A big part of the Tzenius syndrome,is Rabbi Falk's books on tzenius he is the new CC, in a few years from now, his books will be enforced and daily shiurim will be created with a FALK Heritage center etc..
The difference is only that the bulk of his book is his own arousal factor,vs. the CC is loaded with Marei Mekomos and Lomdos.
Lakewood the biggest Yeshiveshe town outside of Benai Berak, has now leadership of Roshei Yeshivos with no backbone, every little shmekel that shows up at there door with some new chumra with the haskama of Elyashev Kanievski they will jump without putting their 2 cents if it is true, or maybe I have a different view on that subject. The Mashgiach is a little stronger minded then thembut for some reason (or agreement) his hands are tied.
Hi Tzig,
Why do you assume Rabbi Wachsman is an angry man? Have you ever met him? Do you know him? Or is it that you just listened to a few of his shmuezen and decided that he's angry?!
Ask people who have met him, or people who have spoken, know, or have a shaychus to him.
He is a very polite, happy and friendly man who never gets angry.
The fact that he raises his voice during his speeches means nothing. It's just the way he speaks.
The reason he was brought to from Monsey is because people find him to be a great speaker and he can captivte crowds, which is not something all too common amongst big talmidei chachomim.
Now Tzig, is it possible that the reason you are so put back bu this asifa is because Chabad of today is the antithesis to Tznius?
Chabad of today is about putting up big signs and billboards and driving around giant trucks to adverise their chasidud (business).
And not chas v'shalom to paint all the women of chabad with one brush, as many women of Chabad are great women and real tzinuim. But there is a bavuste problem (and it is even more bavust within Chabad itself) with the massive lack of tznius amongst some Chabad women.
So instead of trying to take some cheap shots at "snags", perhaps call Rav Wachsman to give a shmuez in Crown Heights!
r falk published a TWO VOLUME sefer with mkoros for his origional sefer! check it out, because I didnt.
anon 2:46:00 PM raised the real issue. How is it discussed at these gatherings? dress length? how we talk? walking down the street swinging your hips? the size of your house? how much $$$$ you spend on a wedding?
The possuk says "Hatznei Leches im Elokechoh", it doesn't mean wearing the new coat that supposed ot protect bochurim from seeing married women in shabbos clothes. It has a far deeper meaning which gets lost when the fanatics are calling the shots.
Since your pic is from LA, I'll give u an ancedotal story from there. I had a conversation with the principal of BY in LA regarding tznius in a frum HS. He told me something very enlightening. Girls are not bochurim who throw their clothes on 30 seconds before seder or davvenning begins. A girl makes a conscience decision every morning how she wants to be seen. When a girl comes to his school not dressed to his standards, he can tell her to go home and change, but that won't change anything. You have to penetrate her thinking and hashkafa and try to find out what she really wants. If these tznius meetings are about hashkafa, kol kvuda bas melech etc.. it's great. If it is about where women should not walk on shabbos afternoon bec. bochurim hang out there, we've got a problem.
Hirshil,I thought the boys always had the right answer to everything.
the comment by 'not a chance' was right on and responded to every single point with sechel.
lubo women are shameful. r wachsman is the most passionate voice that we have and he is a national treasaure.
you must be one of those people that thinks that they should institute a "uniform" for women. White shirt, black skirt, right?
Anon 10:36
Lubo women are shameful and Snags are a bunch of bigots. Perhaps we should look at things from a different light -Lubavitchers have personality and intellgence, while BY create mindless clones. Come on!
Your comments are both hateful and inaccurate.
Hirshel -
We don't need a uniform. We just need them not to forget to get dressed. Period. Nebach to you.
black skirt and black shirt.
white is provacative
how about burkas too!
Chynyok
Rabbi Falk has some marei mekomos on the the peritzus of tzenius with all the Chazals that are recycled already in countless kunteriseim 9n the last 40 years , but his guidelines and dress codes are arousal factor based.
cmon two volumes of arousal factor?! is that what u think all the rabonim gave haskomas for? no marei mkomos, cmon get real!
Anon @ 10:36 - Thank you!
Tzig @ 1:28 - No, I am not one of those people. Bad assumption. You are dead wrong.
Mottel @ 10:36 - You are right, those women do have personality. They have the personality of prusteh shikasa's!
And as for them being intelligent; maybe they are and maybe they are not, but one would certainly not think that they are intelligent based on their dress. The Chabad women who lack tznius do not do it in a classy way, as do other prutzas (not that those are any better...). The Chabad women who lack tznius are famous for wearing very tight and bright colored shmattas. They look like they shop at the Salvation Army. Their dress looks anything but intelligent.
And the Litvishe girls who lack tznius? And the Sfardishe girls who lack Tznius? etc. etc. etc. My point was not to defend those who do wrong (though I feel that the problems exist rather evenly across the board) but to paint all Lubavitchers in such offensively general strokes is moronic.
Mottel,
As for the problem existing rather evenly, just ask any honest Crown Highter. It would seem that you are wrong.
And that which you write "but to paint all Lubavitchers in such offensively general strokes is moronic", is strange. Very strange. Can you read? Here is an exact quote: " And not chas v'shalom to paint all the women of chabad with one brush, as many women of Chabad are great women and real tzinuim."
Speaking of moronic....
Did you not see that I very clearly write
Not a chance
I am impressed from your shemiras eyinim
Chnyock
all his diagrams have no marei mekomos what so ever
Haskomos and kol korois have no value especialy when it is about harassing Women
Tzig, your putting us to sleep these days. With all the free time your giving us Ive discoverd some great blog sites that totaly distroy, and makes a circus out of the chabad cult.(I would list them, but I know that you would never allow the chance for others to see the other side of the story). Look what youve done Hershele. Ay, zolst du zain gezunt.
Not a chance, I read what you said, but I believe I was talking to Anonymous . . . Unless you are one and the same.
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