Tuesday, July 8, 2008

Where's the (Kosher) Beef Untervegens?


(Chabad Hong Kong Shul)

Why Lubavitch Is Good - to a traveling businessman...

When I first saw the post on Vos Iz Naies I thought: "hey! what a nice gesture on their part to report about the Rebbe and Gimmel Tammuz, they didn't have to." They usually speak about Lubavitch only when there's something exciting to report, like Rubashkin, or internal politics. Then, after some additional reading on my part, I realized that I had been quick to judge them. Not that it was a terrible post on their part - it certainly wasn't. But it DID totally miss the point of the Rebbe, and it sounded very self-serving on their part. Most of the accomplishments of Lubavitch that the author on VIN lists seem to be in the "creature comforts" realm. Be they a "geshmake beis hamedrash," or a Blaoney sandwich in Bologna, the author seems to be thankful that he needn't go without Kosher food on his travels, nor without a minyan.

What bothers me is that it seems like the only reason Chabad became acceptable among their former adversaries is that they see Chabad as a harmless group. When once people were afraid that they'd be "Farchapt" by some mashpia they now don't worry about things like that. Are they right not to worry? Is there no "threat" anymore? that depends on whom you ask. Those who take the time to delve into Toras Chabad in general and the Rebbe's Torah in particular are just as "ripe for the picking" as before Gimmel Tammuz 5754. I myself continue to see Gutte Schoireh joining being "farchapt," and I mean Gutte Schoireh. They come because they yearn for a deeper understanding of things, and they find it in Toras Chabad and in the Rebbe. Yes, it IS more difficult these days, since the impediments are much greater, VeDaL, and you don't have the Rebbe's presence to make it all feel better, but those who can see the light are warmed by it. So the question remains: why are they not threatened, and why do they see Chabad as Baloney snadwich providers?

Any thoughts? I have some.

Many people in Chabad have forgotten about the MAIN mission that Chassidus has; to spread Toras HaChassidus. What we see now, i.e. the Shlichus apparatus, is second fiddle to the main fiddle if you will. I believe the Rebbe spoke of the need to be "mekarev yidden" only because nobody else is doing it. Which is why Chabad Shluchim teaches Chassidus to those they are mekarev; that's the ultimate mission. Yet, institutions like Heichel Menachem and other groups that spread Toras HaChassidus to the masses are seen as lower down on the totem pole of Lubavitcher activities. That should not be. We've become too comfortable, going for the easy ones, the unaffiliated.

49 comments:

CHNYOCK said...

as everyone knows the quickest route to a mans heart is thru his stomach. lubavitch propaganda has taken that direction much more strongly lately than in years past. and that is why these satmer suckers don't realize that they are being mkareved. albiet slowwwly. they are totaly not exposed to understanding anything philosophicly, that when they finaly DO hear tora on that derech they get blown away...
they don't learn ramchal or reb tzadok..... so toras chabad wich is quite rich overwhelms them...

friendly anonymous said...

How different is this than many Lubavitchers who seek hiskashrus to the Rebbe only because "the Rebbe can still find a way to answer us and help us", rather than because "yenikas nefesh ruach uneshomo shelohem hu minefesh ruach uneshomo shel hatzadkim vehachachomim roshei bnei yisroel shebedoyrom"?

schneur said...

Chabad is regarded as a good inn and providers of elegant take out meals because as you say thts the way Chabad in the "provinces" regards itself.
As you say the esek Hachassidus is downplayed in all but the Yeshiva atmosphere and in the main areas of Chabad settlement. But in the hinterlands its food and drink

Anonymous said...

The picture is not of the Chabad shul in HK. It is the Sefardi shul in Kowloon.

Hirshel Tzig said...

the photographer said it was. I apologize IF I/he/she was mistaken.

GEDALYA said...

So all the 'hospitality' is only to get people to join Lubavitch??
Talk about 'altruistic'.
Sorry to 'break' something to you:Lubavitchers are seen as pretty ignorant, besides a few luminaries such as R'Yoel Kahn, so no ex yeshiva guy be he chasidish or litvish sees any great knowledge there.Bear in mind the average shliach is a yukel who studied in a generally mediocre Lubavitcher yeshiva till about twenty before doing their shlichus rounds around the world for a number of years, where for obvious reasons very little real learning can be done.I mean try to serious learning when you have very little learning under your belt in a 'yeshiva' with another 5 guys in Singapore for example.They get married go for a year of kolel and voila ! we have a 'rabbi' this can work on freiyeh not frimmeh who have themselves learned in yeshiva.
You have touched on a point here, Hirshel, it's the dearth of serious talmidei chachomim in Lubavitch, similar to people in the regular oilem who attract large followings because of their intellectual abilities such as R'Avrohom Schorr, his nephew R'Itche Meir, R'Usher Weiss from Eretz Yisroel , R'Herschel Schachter from YU, R'Goldvicht from YU.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Gedalya

I can safely assume that your moronic assumption extends to the rest of your comment as well.

Nowhere did I say that the hospitality is done to get people to join Lubavitch. Now go away.

chnyock said...

institutions like Heichel Menachem and other groups that spread Toras HaChassidus to the masses are seen as lower down on the totem pole of Lubavitcher activities. That should not be...

the implication is that you think, as do many many lubavitchers that i know, that being mkarev "krovim" i.e. people who are frum/chasidish is of primary importance.

Hirshel Tzig said...

spreading Toras HaChassidus, is, yes.

gedalya said...

Hirshel,
What did I say that you find so 'moronic'?
Also,I'm not sure if you realize this, but most frummeh people are uncomfortable about their youth being 'farchapt' to other groups especially to a group which has suffered a lot of flack.So I don't know how wise it is from your point of view telling all us 'non-Lubavitchers' or as Lubavitchers like to say 'not YET Lubavitchers' that your agenda is to 'chap' people ,especially the youth to your group?
I for one would feel very,very uncomfortable sending my kids to Lubavitch events knowing of such an agenda.Would you be comfortable if another chasidic group such as Breslov had their sights on your kids?

CHNYOCK said...

Sadly in the eyes of many, gedalia has many strong points which sync with the ones i made..

gedalya said...

Lehavdil
one of the reasons the Mormons are so hated by other Christians besides being kofrim leshtosom, is their very active prosletyzing live and even the dead.

Hirshel Tzig said...

stop with this nonsense. We can always find reasons why they hate us, ands why this group of goyim hates the other. The irreligious hate us because we have lots of kids and dress funny. Do we stop doing that all of a sudden?

Spreading Chassidus doesn't mean proselytizing.

CHNYOCK said...

generaly, what chabad calls spreading chasidus the rest of us call prosletyzing. I am a chosid, I follow the drochim of talmidei baal shem, according to the mesora of my father and our rebbes, pushing toras chabad on me, which has been tried, IS prosletysing. period.
let's be real, its toras chabad being pushed rather then chasidus as a klal, by chabads minions...

btw, would I be allowed to organize a chabura to learn bnei yisoschar, siduro shell shabos, r tzadok, mei hashiloach, be'er moshe, (take your pick koznitz or ozorov), etc... in any chabad yeshiva or entity?....

gedalya said...

Hirshel,
You call what I say 'nonsense'.It's convenient for you.The truth is as I mentioned above that nobody wants their kids to be 'farchapet'.
Sometimes Lubavitchers exasperate me terribly by being or acting dumb.
Repeat this till you get it:Nobody wants other people to 'chap' their kids.Poshet in prost.You don't like it, YOUR NEIGHBOR DOES NOT LIKE IT.I know of no group that agrees to it.
Why is it so difficult to comprehend??

Anonymous said...

I work in Crown Heights and I don't see the matsav to be better than other places.One would think that studying chassidut would make you better, yet the same problems or worse that plague Boro Park and Flatbush exist here.Food for thought

Anonymous said...

B"H
Like the saying goes- they come for the kneidlach, and we give them the Haggodoh. Most people are that level,that is a fact. The biggest professor feels comfy at the warm seudas and farberngens of your local shliach. More than all the learning in chaassidishe texts, this is what takes them. From this point on of course you have shiurim with the guy, etc, changing the world one mitzvah at a time.

kashi said...

'THE R ebbes toirelech' In the couple of years that you've been publishing this disgrace I remember one time that you posted a sicha 'kdeysha' that you really 'enjoyed''

That sicha asks the childish question how Hashem could've destroyed the bais hamikdosh because it's a loi saaseh and Hashem keeps the Torah?and the 'brilliant' answer is that it's 'soiser al menos livnois' which is permissable.
Wonderful.
You want someone to chap hispayles from this kind of toreleh??
One thing is for sure, you were not learning to much in chaider and yeshiva if this type of shallowness grabbed you.Even more telling is that you don't have the sense to realize that showing this kind of 'sicha' to anybody who has done some learning and actually expecting them to think highly of the Rebbe after this example is ludicrous.The Rebbe was a very gifted man and has much better sichos than what you chose to show,so again it's quite telling about you for not finding any better in the hundreds of the Rebbes published works.
Funny thing is that you, the bit shallow idiot is talking about 'learning' chassidus something you surely don't do.Maybe you 'bebeh' chassidus just like you parrot Ramba'm.
Now what did the Rebbe do so bad to be stuck with such idiots as chasidim??

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
Nice meeting u on Shabbos @ the ohel. The Frierdiker Rebbe once said, "my job is not to build mikvaos and cheders, my job is to spread chassidus, but what should I do if no one else is doing it". Unfortunately, with 50% intermarriage, 65% of Jewish children in the USA receive no Jewish education, we have to teach the basics. However, the goal was and is always hafotzas hamaayonos, and the Rebbe said numerous times that Haftozas Hayahaudus is a hachana to Hafotzas Hamayanos. Feeding people is simply Ahavas Yisroel which is the first thing every chossid learns. While "the way to the heart is thru the stomach" most shluchim I've met don't look at it that way. Mostly they view it as helping another Jew with a basic need, and won't push chassidus on them. They also are aware of how Lubavitch is viewed in the larger frum world, and in this vein the vosisnais article is right up their alley.

Rabbi Cheski said...

Why is there this assumption that Lubavitchers do not know how to learn? Is there someone testing Lubavitchers and Lubavitcher Yeshivos? Lubavitcher Rosh Yeshivos and Rabbanim are not only up to par, but they could run circles around most "gedolim." Lubavitcher Yeshivos are not mediocre. They are superb.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
What exactly is your problem? When chabad does chassidus you complain that only satmar has chesed if they provide kosher food then its a inn,are they doomed to fail

Anonymous said...

Chinyok
Your crying for the satmarer that's get suckered in is not a problem for many satmarer chasidim, learning tanya likutie torah etc..is not a problem for a siget satmar chosid, as with a slonimer or chernobler that opposed chabad philosophicaly but these seforim are quoted in Yismach Moshe and so on, the only problem they had with chabad was the views of the Rebbe on the miracles of 67

Anonymous said...

Chinyok
Your crying for the satmarer that's get suckered in is not a problem for many satmarer chasidim, learning tanya likutie torah etc..is not a problem for a siget satmar chosid, as with a slonimer or chernobler that opposed chabad philosophicaly but these seforim are quoted in Yismach Moshe and so on, the only problem they had with chabad was the views of the Rebbe on the miracles of 67

Yosef HaKohein said...

1) The one who asks if he could come to lubavitch and teach any of the other chassidus?

The point of trying to get others to learn chassidus has never been exclusively Chabad. The Rebbe always tried to encourage other Rebbe's and Chasidim to encourage their chasidim to learn any Chassidus of talmidei habesht. This is something that for some reason is neglected by all Chassidim.

Obviously a Chabad Chosid when he tries to teach Chassidus he will teach tanya which has been accepted by all. Had the other chassidim actually engrossed themselves in the Noam, Kedushas Levi, R' Tzodok, Mo'or Einayim or any other chassidus sforim i think that we wouldn't have this discussion. Because no Lubavitcher would would attempt to teach chassidus to them.

As far as teaching other Chassidus to chabad yeshivos, other Chassidim almost don't learn any Chassidus themselves, so for them to teach Bnei Yisoschor to chabadnicks is a mute point.

There is however a new phenomenon amongst the new Rebbe's of various Chassidus to talk much more chasidishe toire than in previous generations and they frequently quote chabad in general and the Baal H'Lkuttei Sichos or as some call him Harama"m M'Lubavitch in particular. This is fairly new.

In truth this can also bee extended to the study of Mussar. The Rebbe was very upset about the fact that in many Misnagdishe Yeshivos Mussar was kind of cut out of the curriculum. The emphasis of the rebbe was to instill Yiras shamayim through Mussar and chassidus.

Yes, i know that there is also the issue of learning Chassidus as part of the promise of moshiach to the Besht (as related by the Toldos, not a Chabad source) that He (Moshiach) will come when the wellsprings of his (the besht's) teachings will be spread forth to all. This has become the mantra for Hafotzo in general. But the specific study of Chassidus was an all inclusive one which included Chagas Sforim and Mussar as well.

2) To the one complaining about the situation in Crown Heights as being no different to anywhere else.

This only reinforces the need to learn more Chassidus. Because I can vouch for anyone in Crown heights (or anywhere else for that matter) who learns Chassidus that he will not qualify to be included in your negative observation. And I'm sure that you will admit to that.

The main thing is to learn Chassidus and to try to be a Yerei Shomayim and all problems will just vanish for good. And Moshiach will certainly come.

Anonymous said...

Yosef
You are right on the button,in the reshimos of the Rebbes yechidus with Rebbes of other courts as the old Toldos Aharon Rebbe and Reb Yochenen of Rachmistrivke you see the rebbe begging them to learn a little chasidus before davening even there own seforim

Mottel said...

During my time in Venice I've seen many a Hungerian or Litvishe Yid come to Chabad for the "hotel", but leave with a positive attitude after seeing bochurim do mivtzoyim, learning, davening etc.

Friendly anonymous said...

To paraphrase the holy goat: Most of the accomplishments of the Rebbe that Lubavitcher Chassidim list seem to be in the "creature comforts" realm. Be they "mofsim that the rebbe did," "yeshuos after davening at the Ohel", "answers from the Igros", etc.

What bothers me is that it seems like the only reason the Rebbe became accepted among his chassidim is that they see him as harmless. (In a manner that we used to disparagingly refer to as "Poilish"). When once people were afraid that they would have to be "sorim lemashmaytoi bechoil asher yigzar aleihem" (Rambam, Chitas, Mivtzoim, etc) they now don't worry about things like that. Are they right not to worry? Is there no "threat" anymore? that depends on whom you ask. etc, etc.

Anonymous said...

Nobody has stepped up to the plate and explained why it is ok to target young impressionable youngsters to try and 'chap' them away from the derech of their fathers.
Also nobody wants to explain why a chassidus that was targeted in such a way such as Satmar by the likes of Mendel Vechter etc should not be very angry.
Had anybody set up undercover missions similar to Vechter and Korfs dastardly deeds in Crown Heights they would have been treated in the same way.
Btw, I think Tzig suffers from the Stokholm Syndrome

Anonymous said...

The Chabad guy in Venice is a Meshichist, how can any normal guy come out of his hotel and feel positive? Vechi beshufteni askinon?

Hirshel Tzig said...

why it is ok to target young impressionable youngsters to try and 'chap' them away from the derech of their fathers.

ask the Holy Baal Shem Tov and his disciples how THEY were allowed to do it.

Btw, I think Tzig suffers from the Stokholm Syndrome

I think they should take you downtown for being a quack. Practicing without a license.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Condolences to Rabbi Vechter on his mechutan's petirah

Hirshel Tzig said...

he also just sat shivah for his mother.

Anonymous said...

Tzig who was himself 'kidnapped' so to speak has become the big promoter of Chassidess.Lol.
You would not understand one paragraph of Tora Ohr even if Altein hit you over the head with it.
Shallowness epitomized.
Now you decide for us who is the Nosi 'hadeyr' doo vus kehn nisht leynen oon farshteyen kahn ein os in ivri
Again I ask:What did The Rebbe do do so bad that these idiots are his 'defenders'??

Anonymous said...

u can eat their meat but not drink their wine.

Mottel said...

-Anon 3:40
Go to Boropark, Likewood and the Five Towns and ask around about Chabad in Venice. Mishechist or not I've seen hundreds of Yidden eating 'Shalosh Sheidas' on a single shabbos -unterveggens they drop their prejudices (unfounded or otherwise) and eat. Trust me they come out happy, and with a better appreciation for Chabad -this with the Yechi there.

Anonymous said...

Mottel
On the face of it your comment makes no sense.Most normal people do not get the Meshichists story, but Chabad tries its best to reign them in, but when they see them out in the open normal people are floored.
Of course you may be a meshichist and therefore are not exactly 'objective'

Anonymous said...

Will someone,anyone,Lubab or Jew explain what gives the Lubavitcher the inalienable right or in fact the 'mitva' to target young impressionable kids to a way in life that their parents disagree with?
Why are they setting up all these 'undercover' shiurim in all kinds of yeshivas?
Even the rabbi of Tzemach Tzedek in Monsey was such a victim.I 'd like to ask him, if he'd agree to his sons being targeted by Ger, Vishnitz or Breslov.
No!
I knew it.

Ian said...

The more I get to know Lubavitchers the more skeptical I am about their motives.It seems that they are only interested in increasing power for their group and leader.
Very, very cult like

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:18
Do you know tzig that well? I know himand for a bal habois he has a good Havona in Nigla and Chassidus

ABI GEREDT

Mottel said...

Anon: I post under my name -who I am and what I believe is open to all, you hide behind a cloak of anonymity. I have no need to tell you what I believe -but if it would (halavay) help you, then I'll be frank: I'm an objectivist, I stay away from partisan shtick and look for the truth -I laud those that do what they ought to, and try live with their foibles.

Venice is not extreme, and I can give Eidus (Though it has been pointed out in the past that despite time I've spent in various Chabad houses, since I'm a Lubavitcher my deah is posul) that vast majority of the people that come leave with a new respect for Chabad. Let me ask you though -how many months did you spend in Venice?

Anonymous said...

Anon;3.37
In the Mir in yerushalium there is some Satmars that are having a shiuur in Kitzur Veyoel Moshe by some Reb Arele SIL, they are working very hard to influence kids from all sects that there parents differ completetly from the satmar derech, so far they are a laughing stock, but they successfully brainwashed 2 boys that became kanoim against there parents will.
they feel they had all the rights to do it since the kids had DIEOS KOZVOS

SatmarTC said...

We sadly miss R Yosi Katanta

CHNYOCK said...

when we sing vchol karnei rishoim.....
we mean......

Anonymous said...

When the Rebbe wrote the famous letter in 5711-1951 to all the Chassidishe Rebbes and Rabbonim about the need for yeshivas to have a kvius in Chassidus, he wasn't referring only to Chabad Chassidus. He was trying to get them to realize that in the new world the nisiyoinus for basic yiras shemayim are so strong, we need something that will help a person stay on the right path. The old world model of emunas tzaddikim, or shtaging in learning day and night won't keep the youth inside the fold. Unfortunately, most people did not have this vision (including many of his own chassidim). We call this "sefardization" of chabad. Reading mishpacha, hamodia, yosaid, they are making the same mistake with their gedolim stories and today we are witnessing the sad results in all communities.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
You have a point on the mofsim emphasis in Chabad vs Limud Hachasidus that is now 2nd place on the priority list, but there is a powerful Rebishe letter from the Rebbe to his FIL that in our day and age that ideas of darwinisim and comunisim are strongly accepted,we have to fight it back thru supernatural mofsim by Tzadikim to get the world to realize that there is a Yad Hashem manuvering this world.

Anonymous said...

The Lubavich Rebbe advocated proselytizing yeshiva students, who knew how to learn. I assume that means the non chasidish chevra. Is that effort still in effect in any way?

Anonymous said...

Am I living in a different Chabad? As far as I know, the emphasis still is on learning chassidus and doing the Rebbe's inyonim, more than on mophsim. All Lubavitchers that I know are connected to the Rebbe because he is Rosh Bnei Yisroel, not because he'll get you a miracle. When was the last time Friendly Anonymous was at a farbrengen that he makes such statements?

boruch said...

''All Lubavitchers that I know are connected to the Rebbe because he is Rosh Bnei Yisroel''

The Rebbe 'is' or passed away??
Who appointed him to 'rosh bnei yisroel'??

Lubavitchers are pathetic.The Rebe was niftar 14 years ago, he is not rosh bney yisroel today, and most people never though he was, with all due respect

ptjew said...

I can't believe how mean you are being to Chabad. The Chabad in Ann Arbor, Michigan is wonderful. Very nice people. Very nice summer day camp too. Also Chabad has the best website. I would much rather be 'chaped' by a lub than a LDS. Aren't we all Jews here?