By now - after years of doing this - I can see the excuses from the CB'ers and Litvaks בכלל. Wishful thinking and projection on Chabad's part, and so on. Take it or leave it.
Dovy in the height of the machlokes on Chabad there were rumors mongering on his stance on Chabad and the Lubavicher Rebbe, even tough I heard from honest people that did visit him at his bed in his last days, were amazed by the Divrie Hispielous he spoke on the Lubavicher Rebbe. But still the hate mongers spread and printed many quotes of him against the Rebbe. this letter puts the issue to bed, I hope...
This obsession with "proving" that every godol was with the Rebbe makes Lubavitch look bad. Why can't you tolerate that people disgreed with him? Especially since in the eyes of Lubavitch no godol was even close to the Rebbe in greatness!Just speak to all of Rav Hutner's close talmidim and you'll clearly see that R' Hutner disagreed with the Rebbe in many areas.They are not all just making up stories. However, the hisnagdus of R' Hutner was not as extreme as the Bnei Brak crowd. R' Hutner was vehemently against the Rebbe using the word "nasi" on his shver [and meaning himself also]; he was also against the Rebbe working with the masses as opposed to individuals. He did feel that despite all this the Rebbe was an odom godol, unlike the Bnei Brakers. And he didn't feel that his hisnagdus warranted beaking off relations with the Rebbe.
It shows that Rav Hutner greatly respected Toras Chabad. Did anyone deny that?
My impression is that the claim is that Rav Hutner was very opposed to Chabad Messianism (e.g. the story in Goldberg's book about the summer camp.) And we can only imagine what he'd say about the current situation.
This pamphlet sheds absolutely no light on that central issue...
The Shturem article has some very illogical statements, for example why in heaven would talmidei R'Hutner be interested in demonizing Chabad, if their rebbe was so close to Chabad? Does it make any sense? The truth probably is that R'Hutner had a complex relationship with Chabad,so there were elements of love and hate.
Indeed in mivtza tefillin (5727), when rav hutner's words were portrayed as against the Rebbe, he wrote to the rebbe asking mechila if it should be taken in such a context. And signed his name and his mother's, as a chosid to a Rebbe.
The full correspondence is printed in Rabbi Levin of Lubavitch library's "Mbeis HaGnozim" coffee-table book. I believe Hirshel may have brought it here as well in the past.
Additionally, the shturem article failed to note that he had a chavrusa'shaft with the Rebbe in NY prior to the Rayatz's histalkus. I can't recall a source at the moment, but it's well-documented.
kovner "he was also against the rebbe working with the masses as opposed to individuals" everything aside that's the dumbest comment you can possibly make about the rebbe anyone who knows anything about the rebbe knows that one of the very great things about him was that although being involved in such a big amount of inyanim klaliyim he was at the same time dealing with individuals as though he has nothing else going on and in countless occasions rememberd years later every last detail of the individuals life and helped them. tsig i cant believe you didn't respond to such a comment
Yom tov in der vochen "The truth probably is that R'Hutner had a complex relationship with Chabad,so there were elements of love and hate." you are saying it wrong, Rav Hutner was a "Complicated" person, and that made all his relationships complex. Every Chaim Berliner tries to fit in to Yeshiveshe world, all what they need was to be labeled Kookniks and Chabadniks.If after all he wrote to the Rebbe, he still had a other side to him that badmouthed the Rebbe , then he is Role Model of complexity
Kovner "This obsession with "proving" that every godol was with the Rebbe makes Lubavitch look bad" Lubavich has behind it 3 decades of persecution by some movement that put in their platform to eradicate shem chabad ... so dont play dumb....
Boruch, What I meant was that according to R' Hutner the four thousand shluchim out there ahould rather be sitting in kolel and engaging in being traditional "oivdim" and "maskilim", instead of introducing yiddishkeit to the masses.
Yankel, What Lubavitch is doing doesn't help.Firstly many others other then Bnei Brak had strong reservations about the Rebbe's succint hinting that he is Moshiach. Claiming that all Rabbonim held of the Rebbe -totally - is just not true, and the yeshivishe readers know that. Also,many of the Rabbonim quoted in the those seforim are not that respected by the yeshiva velt, that their opinion should override the opinion of Bnei Brak. On this topic may I add, I could never condone the deep hatred Lubavitchers had for R' Shach. The main complaint R' Schach had against the Rebbe was his intimation that he's Moshiach. And years ago,Lubavitcher chassidim vehemently denied that and claimed that R' Shach is just jealous etc. But now that R' Schach was proven right, and we see that the Rebbe did clearly believe he's Moshiach, and so do the chassidim, why is R' Shach a terrible person for not accepting him as Moshiach and therefore opposing him for yes suggesting he is?!
My father learned in Chaim Berlin in the 50's.Although he personally never heard Rav Hutner say anything against Chabad his position was so well known in the Yesshiva that he doesn't see how anyone can deny it.(he sure never heard rumors of Rav Hutner having issues with say the Satmar Rebbeh..) At the time Rav Hutner was niftar Rav Shach also had barely said anything about Chabad. A friend of mines father who learned in Ponevich told me he was surprised when in the late 1970's he was talking to Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo .
Anon "My father learned in Chaim Berlin in the 50's.Although he personally never heard Rav Hutner say anything against Chabad his position was so well known in the Yesshiva that he doesn't see how anyone can deny it.(he sure never heard rumors of Rav Hutner having issues with say the Satmar Rebbeh..) At the time Rav Hutner was niftar Rav Shach also had barely said anything about Chabad. A friend of mines father who learned in Ponevich told me he was surprised when in the late 1970's he was talking to Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo ." I believe your father is a big tzadik, he hears no evil sees no evil, we need more tzadikim like your father
Kovner "What Lubavitch is doing doesn't help" the anshie chabad that work the field, say that it does works, so why should I listen to a outside critic who writes for the sake of writing.... You can write theories till the blue moon, all it matters the end product.
Kovner " The main complaint R' Schach had against the Rebbe was his intimation that he's Moshiach." Whay did he oppose the rebbes war against Miu Yehudi in the late 70's, whry did he work thru his lapdog Lorencz, with the help of the Israeli left, to torpedo the Law, why? bcause he had Ruach haKodesh that the Rebbe will be Moshiach in year 1990? Did he say in his infamous rant in Yad Eliyauo that Chabads blood is hefker because The rebbe wants to be Moshiach? Can I go and kill all Ponevzhers because Rav Gross said and wrote that the Avi Ezri is similar to rashbi in 24 ways?
Anon "Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo ." He was in a bad mood that day...
Kovner "On this topic may I add, I could never condone the deep hatred Lubavitchers had for R' Shach. The main complaint R' Schach had against the Rebbe was his intimation that he's Moshiach." Eliach the author of the 3 volumes Hagoan, claims that Maran was behind his printing the biography, and he guided him on the works. The books Hagoan are infamous to rehash a century old war against Chasidim, on personalities that are considered the holy of the holiest in all of Klal Yisroel,as the Bardichever ruv, Noam Elimelech and the Baal Hatanya. This hate monger Eliach argues that the cherem is still valid, as all the misnagdic gedolim really held. All this is done on the auspices, of the famous Menchen Libhober Maran.. Were these Taziikim also indicted for having messianic aspirations that the Moshiach Hunter foresaw after their death....
Shemiras halashon, Check again! Elyach thanks Rav Chaim Kunyevsky for guiding him etc., not Rav Shach! Rav Shach gave him material and praised his work on Rav Chaim Volozhiner, not the HaGaon book.
Yankel, What you are saying is that those lie-filled books (pardon my strong expression)are doing their job... Nu Nu. The Rebbe used to always say that there is a chazakah that propaganda is successful...
Shemiras Haloshan Heritage said... Anon "Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo ." He was in a bad mood that day...
I won't repeat the issue and context but the commont from Rav Shach was definitely L'Toyeles
Anon "Rav Shach was definitely L'Toyeles" nobody dares to question that, Maran was a great visionary, ask the Markovitz clan in Ponevezh and the Nati Grossman Hapeles groupings... Yechi Hamelech Maran Leolam Voad... An answer of you is not required....it will create shemiras haloshan violations
If you want to talk about visionaries...I am not a fan of the current Daas Torah movement but one point of theirs I have to concede to.Back in the 50's & 60's when most Lubavtichers (sincerely)insisted that Chabad would never turn into a messianic movement or worse and there were no overt efforts to do so, the gedolim were already cautioning it would happen.
anon "Back in the 50's & 60's when most Lubavtichers (sincerely)insisted that Chabad would never turn into a messianic movement or worse" Who is that Lubavichers of the 60's ??? stop talking generally... A regular Lubavicher never had a thought how Lubavich will look after a Histalkus.. Realist or non realist.. by frum Jews they dont entertain thoughts, of how it will be after your Rebbes or your parents death... Nobody thought that Rav Shachs people will destroy Ponovizh too... Nobody thought in the 50's that Na Nach will be a Movement Nobody thought that Neturai Karta will deny the Holocaust..
hirshel
ReplyDeletewhat year was Rav Hutner niftar?
5741
Deletei don't think"Litvaks bichlal" feel the nead to defend or teitch up Rav Hutner. He was an eclectic individual and not the stereotypical Litvak.
ReplyDeleteDovy
ReplyDeletein the height of the machlokes on Chabad there were rumors mongering on his stance on Chabad and the Lubavicher Rebbe, even tough I heard from honest people that did visit him at his bed in his last days, were amazed by the Divrie Hispielous he spoke on the Lubavicher Rebbe. But still the hate mongers spread and printed many quotes of him against the Rebbe.
this letter puts the issue to bed, I hope...
Avraham fried's new cd has a jem from AJ Twersky that first got publicity right here! You rock! This RYH stuff was here too first..
ReplyDeleteDoes he chotsh give me a shout out?
ReplyDeleteThis obsession with "proving" that every godol was with the Rebbe makes Lubavitch look bad. Why can't you tolerate that people disgreed with him? Especially since in the eyes of Lubavitch no godol was even close to the Rebbe in greatness!Just speak to all of Rav Hutner's close talmidim and you'll clearly see that R' Hutner disagreed with the Rebbe in many areas.They are not all just making up stories. However, the hisnagdus of R' Hutner was not as extreme as the Bnei Brak crowd. R' Hutner was vehemently against the Rebbe using the word "nasi" on his shver [and meaning himself also]; he was also against the Rebbe working with the masses as opposed to individuals. He did feel that despite all this the Rebbe was an odom godol, unlike the Bnei Brakers. And he didn't feel that his hisnagdus warranted beaking off relations with the Rebbe.
ReplyDeleteI'm really not sure what this proves.
ReplyDeleteIt shows that Rav Hutner greatly respected Toras Chabad. Did anyone deny that?
My impression is that the claim is that Rav Hutner was very opposed to Chabad Messianism (e.g. the story in Goldberg's book about the summer camp.) And we can only imagine what he'd say about the current situation.
This pamphlet sheds absolutely no light on that central issue...
Chalmers
ReplyDelete" And we can only imagine what he'd say about the current situation."
What is the current situation?? massive shamad? like shabsi Tzvi??
Chalmers
ReplyDelete"I'm really not sure what this proves."
It proves respect for the Rebbe and for chasidus
The Shturem article has some very illogical statements, for example why in heaven would talmidei R'Hutner be interested in demonizing Chabad, if their rebbe was so close to Chabad?
ReplyDeleteDoes it make any sense?
The truth probably is that R'Hutner had a complex relationship with Chabad,so there were elements of love and hate.
To add to Kovner of 11:17 --
ReplyDeleteIndeed in mivtza tefillin (5727), when rav hutner's words were portrayed as against the Rebbe, he wrote to the rebbe asking mechila if it should be taken in such a context. And signed his name and his mother's, as a chosid to a Rebbe.
The full correspondence is printed in Rabbi Levin of Lubavitch library's "Mbeis HaGnozim" coffee-table book. I believe Hirshel may have brought it here as well in the past.
Additionally, the shturem article failed to note that he had a chavrusa'shaft with the Rebbe in NY prior to the Rayatz's histalkus. I can't recall a source at the moment, but it's well-documented.
kovner "he was also against the rebbe working with the masses as opposed to individuals" everything aside that's the dumbest comment you can possibly make about the rebbe anyone who knows anything about the rebbe knows that one of the very great things about him was that although being involved in such a big amount of inyanim klaliyim he was at the same time dealing with individuals as though he has nothing else going on and in countless occasions rememberd years later every last detail of the individuals life and helped them. tsig i cant believe you didn't respond to such a comment
ReplyDeleteBORUCH
ReplyDeleteI knew you would respond...
Yom tov in der vochen
ReplyDelete"The truth probably is that R'Hutner had a complex relationship with Chabad,so there were elements of love and hate."
you are saying it wrong, Rav Hutner was a "Complicated" person, and that made all his relationships complex.
Every Chaim Berliner tries to fit in to Yeshiveshe world, all what they need was to be labeled Kookniks and Chabadniks.If after all he wrote to the Rebbe, he still had a other side to him that badmouthed the Rebbe , then he is Role Model of complexity
Kovner
ReplyDelete"This obsession with "proving" that every godol was with the Rebbe makes Lubavitch look bad"
Lubavich has behind it 3 decades of persecution by some movement that put in their platform to eradicate shem chabad ... so dont play dumb....
Boruch,
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant was that according to R' Hutner the four thousand shluchim out there ahould rather be sitting in kolel and engaging in being traditional "oivdim" and "maskilim", instead of introducing yiddishkeit to the masses.
Yankel,
What Lubavitch is doing doesn't help.Firstly many others other then Bnei Brak had strong reservations about the Rebbe's succint hinting that he is Moshiach. Claiming that all Rabbonim held of the Rebbe -totally - is just not true, and the yeshivishe readers know that. Also,many of the Rabbonim quoted in the those seforim are not that respected by the yeshiva velt, that their opinion should override the opinion of Bnei Brak.
On this topic may I add, I could never condone the deep hatred Lubavitchers had for R' Shach. The main complaint R' Schach had against the Rebbe was his intimation that he's Moshiach. And years ago,Lubavitcher chassidim vehemently denied that and claimed that R' Shach is just jealous etc. But now that R' Schach was proven right, and we see that the Rebbe did clearly believe he's Moshiach, and so do the chassidim, why is R' Shach a terrible person for not accepting him as Moshiach and therefore opposing him for yes suggesting he is?!
My father learned in Chaim Berlin in the 50's.Although he personally never heard Rav Hutner say anything against Chabad his position was so well known in the Yesshiva that he doesn't see how anyone can deny it.(he sure never heard rumors of Rav Hutner having issues with say the Satmar Rebbeh..)
ReplyDeleteAt the time Rav Hutner was niftar Rav Shach also had barely said anything about Chabad. A friend of mines father who learned in Ponevich told me he was surprised when in the late 1970's he was talking to Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo .
Anon
ReplyDelete"My father learned in Chaim Berlin in the 50's.Although he personally never heard Rav Hutner say anything against Chabad his position was so well known in the Yesshiva that he doesn't see how anyone can deny it.(he sure never heard rumors of Rav Hutner having issues with say the Satmar Rebbeh..)
At the time Rav Hutner was niftar Rav Shach also had barely said anything about Chabad. A friend of mines father who learned in Ponevich told me he was surprised when in the late 1970's he was talking to Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo ."
I believe your father is a big tzadik, he hears no evil sees no evil, we need more tzadikim like your father
Kovner
ReplyDelete"What Lubavitch is doing doesn't help"
the anshie chabad that work the field, say that it does works, so why should I listen to a outside critic who writes for the sake of writing....
You can write theories till the blue moon, all it matters the end product.
Kovner
ReplyDelete" The main complaint R' Schach had against the Rebbe was his intimation that he's Moshiach."
Whay did he oppose the rebbes war against Miu Yehudi in the late 70's, whry did he work thru his lapdog Lorencz, with the help of the Israeli left, to torpedo the Law,
why? bcause he had Ruach haKodesh that the Rebbe will be Moshiach in year 1990?
Did he say in his infamous rant in Yad Eliyauo that Chabads blood is hefker because The rebbe wants to be Moshiach?
Can I go and kill all Ponevzhers because Rav Gross said and wrote that the Avi Ezri is similar to rashbi in 24 ways?
Anon
ReplyDelete"Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo ."
He was in a bad mood that day...
Kovner
ReplyDelete"On this topic may I add, I could never condone the deep hatred Lubavitchers had for R' Shach. The main complaint R' Schach had against the Rebbe was his intimation that he's Moshiach."
Eliach the author of the 3 volumes Hagoan, claims that Maran was behind his printing the biography, and he guided him on the works. The books Hagoan are infamous to rehash a century old war against Chasidim, on personalities that are considered the holy of the holiest in all of Klal Yisroel,as the Bardichever ruv, Noam Elimelech and the Baal Hatanya. This hate monger Eliach argues that the cherem is still valid, as all the misnagdic gedolim really held. All this is done on the auspices, of the famous Menchen Libhober Maran..
Were these Taziikim also indicted for having messianic aspirations that the Moshiach Hunter foresaw after their death....
Do you know if the Shturem article will be translated in English on their English Webiste?
ReplyDeleteI do not
ReplyDeleteShemiras halashon,
ReplyDeleteCheck again! Elyach thanks Rav Chaim Kunyevsky for guiding him etc., not Rav Shach! Rav Shach gave him material and praised his work on Rav Chaim Volozhiner, not the HaGaon book.
Yankel,
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is that those lie-filled books (pardon my strong expression)are doing their job... Nu Nu. The Rebbe used to always say that there is a chazakah that propaganda is successful...
Kovner said, "This obsession with "proving" that every godol was with the Rebbe makes Lubavitch look bad."
ReplyDeleteI agree. Well, maybe not "bad", but definitely pathetic.
Shemiras Haloshan Heritage said...
ReplyDeleteAnon
"Rav Shach about a communal issue in the community he was rav, and the issue of Chabad came up and Rav Shach said a mildly anti Chabad innuendo ."
He was in a bad mood that day...
I won't repeat the issue and context but the commont from Rav Shach was definitely L'Toyeles
Anon
ReplyDelete"Rav Shach was definitely L'Toyeles"
nobody dares to question that, Maran was a great visionary, ask the Markovitz clan in Ponevezh and the Nati Grossman Hapeles groupings...
Yechi Hamelech Maran Leolam Voad...
An answer of you is not required....it will create shemiras haloshan violations
If you want to talk about visionaries...I am not a fan of the current Daas Torah movement but one point of theirs I have to concede to.Back in the 50's & 60's when most Lubavtichers (sincerely)insisted that Chabad would never turn into a messianic movement or worse and there were no overt efforts to do so, the gedolim were already cautioning it would happen.
ReplyDeleteanon
ReplyDelete"Back in the 50's & 60's when most Lubavtichers (sincerely)insisted that Chabad would never turn into a messianic movement or worse"
Who is that Lubavichers of the 60's ???
stop talking generally...
A regular Lubavicher never had a thought how Lubavich will look after a Histalkus.. Realist or non realist.. by frum Jews they dont entertain thoughts, of how it will be after your Rebbes or your parents death...
Nobody thought that Rav Shachs people will destroy Ponovizh too...
Nobody thought in the 50's that Na Nach will be a Movement
Nobody thought that Neturai Karta will deny the Holocaust..