Reader Manhattan writes in response to the ZSS Post
"So who's to "blame" for his going off the deep end? The Rebbe, the FR?!
of course, the Apikorsim from Volozhin, Mir, Slabodka etc. had nothing to do with the Yeshiva they attended, it was just per chance.
riiiiiiiiight"
עכ"ל
I don't know if I'd blame the Yeshivos for producing the destroyers of כלל ישראל, those who were responsible for tearing millions away from Yiddishkeit. The two time periods, that of pre-WWI&WWII Europe and post-WWII America, were very different. Yet the situation in the Yeshivos certainly didn't help, hence the need for Tomchei Tmimim.
As far as ZSS and, to a lesser extent, Shlomo Carlebach, I firmly believe that these two had their minds made up a long time before to do what they ultimately did. These were two very motivated guys who used Yeshivos as their medium and the same can be said about people like Bialik and others, but the ישיבות הקדושות were breeding grounds for revolutionaries and rabble-rousers, TT was not, Shazar not withstanding.
Nice picture of Bialik.
ReplyDeleteHe went to Velozin with Echad Ha-Am (cousin of the Rebbe Rashab) where they had a lot of fun with the Netziv.
Did the Netziv put in time and energy to try to save these souls?
HEY! I think I know that guy!
ReplyDeleteI think he has a web-blog, isn't his name Atlas?
that would make him 120 years old at least!
ReplyDelete"Maskil":
ReplyDeleteyou said "where they had a lot of fun with the Netziv". What's that supposed to mean?
Tzig
ReplyDeleteI was waiting for this kind of dribble to eventually show up. You haven't disappointed.
Litvak -
ReplyDeleteDo you have anything to add?
Everyone is busy burying their past! Why can't people be trusted to be able to understand an imperfect world?
Sure, Yeshivos had failures. Chassidim had failures. This should not shock anyone at all.
Some people are out there blogging about how certain groups manipulate the truth to their benefit, but this is not an isolated issue. The Litvishe world is just as guilty, and maybe more so, of doing the complete history rewrite.
Does anyone remember that the Litvishe Roshei Yeshiva ate cholov stam, cut their beards, read secular material, had wives with uncovered hair...the list goes on and on.
In my opinion the Yeshiva world is by far the most dishonest about their history, even if TA would have you believe otherwise.
Alter
ReplyDeleteanother litvak hater, aye?
take a seat next to the goat, just be careful not to step into his doo-doo.
I'm not a Litvak hater.
ReplyDeleteI just get nauseated when I hear this Yeshivaleit tell me about how it was the Bnai Yeshiva that fought for Yiddishkeit against everything from the haskala to communism to the czar to zionism to modernity, etc., and that chassidm are just a bunch of amei haartz who never learn.
Let's just be on the level, and not spend our time denying the "skeltons" in the "closet."
just wodering about work and blog??????????
ReplyDeletewell, they did fight for Shtreimels, I'll grant you that.
ReplyDeleteFunny you should bring up שז"ר and then make him "not withstanding". Why can't Tomchei Tmimim be blamed for him turning out the way he did when Volozhin et. al. get the blame for their rotten products?
ReplyDeleteLitvak,
ReplyDeleteNow were talkin'
If we take the talmidim of Mosdos of the non-chassidic variety and compare their success in keeping Torah-Yiddishkeit alive for the next generations to that of the Chassidise denomination, what do you think the ratio would look like?
I would dare say that the frum world today is dominated by children of chassidic heritage in a far more disportionate way than it should have been. I suspect that the cause for this is that the "Yeshiva" world was unable to keep them in the fold nearly as well as the Chassidishe world was.
Alter Yid
ReplyDeletesheer numbers are not representative of the facts, just look at Satmar. Half, if not most of Hungarian Jewry was spared, whereas Lithuanian and Polish Jewry was almost completely wiped out. Does the fact that there are more Satmarer Chassidim than any other group mean that they're doing something better than others? of course not.
litayi,
ReplyDeleteI said ratio. The Litvishe system suffered epic losses to haskala and moderity that Chassidim did not. I'm not saying Chassidim did not loose a few - but overall they succeded much more then the Litvishe.
litvak, Volozhin lost them because of their lack of supervision, Lubavitch lost them despite their strict supervision.
ReplyDeleteand your proof is?
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer,
ReplyDeleteIt seems that today the inverse is true
I guess what goes around comes around:(
ReplyDeleteVolozhin lost them because they allowed non-frume reading material, and did not supervise the shmiras hamitzvos of the talmidim. Lubavitch lost those they did despite banning anyone who read papers or books and carefully documented the shmiras hamitzvos of each talmid.
ReplyDeletecrown heightser, unfortunately we have both reached a 50/50 is more likely: half of Lubavitcher Yeshivos do not properly supervise to make sure such material isn't around (although the rules never allow it), and half the litvishe yeshivos do supervise yiras shomayim.
I'm saying half and half because none of us have statistics, and let's leave it that way for arguments sake even if you believe it is 30/70 etc.
As discussed elsewhere, the main reason we actually lose is taavos olam hazeh these days.
Guzvitzer,
ReplyDeleteWhere do you live? I disagree with your supposition that it's tayvas olam hazeh - and I repeat my opinion is that it is the schools.
My kids go to the schools - and they are terrible.
I believe that all those of years of laughing at other groups who made rules of conduct and dress has finally caught up with us. Now even if we tried it won't work, and it sticks out like a sore thumb. You can tell a "Lubavitcher" modern guy/girl from a mile away, and not because of his Kapote or hat. :(
ReplyDeleteavremel, we have rules of conduct, sorry. And we don't laugh at others rules of conduct either, unless my eyes deceive me on those mekurovim from Poilishe Chasidus that the Rebbe told to keep their levush.
ReplyDeletech, you'll have to pinpoint what you think is wrong with the schools to discuss it. It doesn't matter, though - ask your average kid who dropped out why he left and the answer is simple - cheeseburgers, girls, and the world out there to enjoy. They didn't stump their Rebbe with questions on beriyas haolam. The failure of the schools would be to teach such Darkei Hachasidus as leaving hanachos olam hazeh.
Guravitzer
ReplyDeleteof course we have rules of conduct, but very few and veeeeery loose ones at that. The best thing the Rebbe ever did was to have everybody wear Kapotes and black hats on Shabbos. Otherwise who knows what the Oilem would look like! Now if only the women would also have some rules :(
In my view the oldtimers are to blame, but that's another story.
Guravitzer,
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your denial - may you never have to know different.
I think that Guravitzer is just too plain positive, or never walks the streets of CH. Either that or he's just too proud to admit some problems.
ReplyDeleteGeting back to the original post: Was there really no supervision in Volozhin et. al.? Didn't the Roshei Yeshiva care about their students? I find that hard to believe. אלא מאי?
ReplyDeleteMaybe Guravitzer is out on shlichus and still thinks we look like we did in 1950?1960?
ReplyDeleteI cannot stand the streets of CH, and think it's disgusting. I also know not to judge the state of Lubavitch by the state of CH. As the saying in Hatomim is, arum yam iz truken. But it seems for you, either everything is broken or I am refusing to "admit" anything. You want to feel that everything is broken, fine, be my guest. If you truly want to galvanize people you have to do it with facts.
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer,
ReplyDeleteI am simply saying that the mosdos are poorly run. Its true here in CH and elsewhere as well. I haven't heard that we have great mosdos anywhere.
All I can say is that we came to CH many years ago with high hopes, perhaps wrongly, and we have been terribly let down. I could continue quoting platitudes from places like Hatomim or Igros kodes - but that doesn't change the fact that my family has paid the price, and i will have to deal with children who are products of poorly run schools.
Sure, it's their fault that they may chase various tayvos olam hazeh. Everyone has bechira. But we never had a TV, non-frum publications, non-frum influences or other anacceptable influences in our home. They were exposed to Lubavitcher Mosdos, and those mosdos played the primary role in producing those products. They are good kids, but not what I'd consider for Tomchei Temimim of Europe. The supervision is terrible, the standards are low, and the secular exposure is high. I wonder if there is any other "Chareidi" group who has it worse.
Crown Heightser, well said! I think those parents that do bring up their children without secular influences at home really have a taano. Maybe, just maybe, it’s time we had separate mosdos for our kids?
ReplyDeleteIs it so unreasonable in Lub of today to expect your child’s peers to have had a chareidi upbringing? Is it really too much to ask? Why do we exhibit tolerance and understanding to every sub-group in Lub except the frum ones?
And my real question is: Is Lub the place a chareidi famalies anymore?
CH, your complaint is absolutely true, regardless of the exact count and state of the affected. I really feel bad that you were misled about CH in the first place.
ReplyDeleteboruch, I care more about the frum ones that any others personally. There are alternatives even in NY. And out of NY is even better.
Outside of NY is not better. At least in the majority of places. CH may feel let down and disappointed about moving to CH, I feel the same about Lub as a whole. It was presented to me, way back when, as a Chareidi version of Yiddishkeit. By the time I realized this was, for the most part, a lie, it was too late.
ReplyDeleteI have no clue what Chareidi version of Yiddishkeit means.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't surprise me. Your a Lubavitcher, right?
ReplyDeleteWhy has lubavitch somewhere not jumpstarted any yeshivas with a real charedi/european culture, yiddish speaking... there are enough families interested in such mosdos. If none of the smart folks in lubavitch, old timers, rabbonim, shpitz, mashpiim, not done anything in this regard, maybe its a commentary that charedi life is obsolete? that yiddishkeit by default requires a reinvention...
ReplyDeleteMaybe there aren't really enough families...
ReplyDeleteI don't know, but in general the principle of supply & demand would dictate that if there were enough interested parties, this would have happened already.
Therefore, it seems very likely that today's Chabad is not interested as a whole in moving to the "right." The interests are in producing "hip" shluchim, who can impress our non-yet-frum brothers and sisters. I would say that we have transformed solely into a "outreach" group that likes to wax eloquent about the greatness of our past.
We still can get the ego-boost of belonging to the elite, while we eat our chocolate cake with ice cream, and our kids go to college with their trimmed beards, and modern outlook.
realist, there are enough people, but no shliach type is gonna do it...1) the draw of conventional shlichus is too strong..2) and there are inherent contradictions to general lubavitch dogma of unconditional acceptance. Instead parents and kids would be constantly screened for the minutae of halachic and cultural adherance. non compliance would prompt ejection from the yeshiva. this goes against our grain.and smacks of an 'elitist' column arising. 3) it also smells of a repudiation of the Rebbe's guidance because the rebbe never promoted this kind of agenda.
ReplyDeleteSo N,
ReplyDeleteWhat's to be?
Lets talk america because the world is to big to bite at this point. A number of like minded lubavitchers should colonize, but not in an insular country commune setting..there we would get crazier and instead of beard trimming start scalping and mohocking..rather move into either boro park, williamsburg, kiryas yoel. This would have an undisputable immediate effect on us for the better. This is step one. next or in preparation we could ulpan entire families in yiddish. then we could set up yeshivas where yidddish is spoken, etc....
ReplyDeleteN,
ReplyDeleteUm.... since that aint happenin, what's plan b?
boruch, what does surprise me is that you would accept something as cliche as "a Chareidi version of Yiddishkeit" in describing something. I'd want details - what do you mean by Charedi, who defines Charedi, etc.
ReplyDeleteAs Charedi is a label imposed by outsiders I need to hear why it must be accepted by those who are being so labeled, although it isn't necessarily invalid.
Guravitzer, you know exactly what I mean, your cute games not withstanding.
ReplyDeleteCharedi is a term well understood and used by the vast majority of non MO frum Jews.
Actually, it's not. No one knows what it means or who it applies to. It's a catch-all phrase similar to UltraOrthodox that means nothing.
ReplyDeleteI'm begining to see why you were called an idiot and kicked off the other blog. Your lucky this one is more tolerant ;-)
ReplyDeleteBoruch
ReplyDeletelet's refrain from using personal terms of "non-endearment", shall we?
It seems that we are left with to camps as to how to deal with the current Chabad scene:
ReplyDelete1. The "Love it or leave it" camp. This is often people in denial, and others who have given up.
2. The grumblers. They get to be marginalized and called part of the fringe.
Where is the third group? There should be a group of people with leaders who are out there trying to bring us Lubavitchers back to where we belong. We should have outspoken people looking to create a generation that are Chassidim Yorei Shomaim and Lamdonim! But where are they?
How are we going to produce the future R' Itche der Masmids, or Chatche Feigins or R' Yoel Kahns?
We don't want to measure ourselves against what the rest of the frum world is doing and that will continue to keeps us lagging behind. I know that the quote "unzer ziburios is besser vi zeire eidiyos" gets plenty of air-time... I just wish I knew what it means anymore.
Maybe I can help here...
ReplyDeleteCharedi:
Frum Jews who wear hats / women cover their hair. This term generally covers the Yeshivish - Litvish, Chassidish, Aguda type affiliated Jews, to name a few. As a rule they attend yeshivos with the intention of producing talmidei chochomim, and where College is frowned upon.
My kids pretend no to understand my simple things too ;-) .
This sound a whole lot like MB - is the the intention Mr. Tzig?
ReplyDeleteOr were you trying to do something different?
guravitzer, you are being disingenuous. If you have seen it once even in a picture book or heard a story even while half asleep you know what charedi is..
ReplyDeleteheshy, i for one welcome boruch getting personal as long its not to me!
realist, we probably are not going to produce them organically sad to say.... they will probably be grafted from another chareidi culture and then become enlightened chabadsters and we'll take the credit for that individual......
its interesting, i've talked to a number of intellectual chareidi types other groups who would like to defect but they don't see any sort of cultural chareidi lubavitch element to join or live with so there is no way to transition their entire families
out of their groups....
n
ReplyDeleteyou're depressing me
That was not the intention, anonymous, but it seems to have gone that way somewhat, albeit in a friendlier, more constructive way.
ReplyDeleteboruch, what I notice is that if I do not agree with you I am an idiot. peanut, according to your definition boruch is wrong, which is why I ask. Yet boruch insists on proving Pirkei Avos to be correct in stating Lo Hakapdan Melamed.
ReplyDeleten, unfortunately I am not simply being disingenuous, as peanut just gave a description of Chareidi which fits Lubavitch, yet boruch feels Lubavitch is not Chareidi. Which tells me that Charedi is a nicely made up word that works when trying to give a very general grouping, yet fails when used as an exclusionary insult, such as how boruch used it.
Guravitzer,
ReplyDeleteHow is Der Ayzel wrong?
Lubavitch is Chareidi as well, although it may have significantly un-chareidi-like characteristics that we tend to find among the Mizrachi / MO, but he is speaking about the non-Lubavitcher Chreidim - which I think you understood.
What's with the word games? You know what he's saying.
BP,
ReplyDeleteI think we're singing the same tune mi amigo.
(At least Fats is safe, v'dal)
attention all posters about fats, katrina, Louisiana etc.: please post in the other 2 posts about the 'cane.
ReplyDeletethis one http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2005/09/lessons-to-be-learned.html
ReplyDeleteguravitz, peanut is either being politically correct, naive or just wrong...he could be describing modern orthodoxy with a black hat. chareidi in a few words: Furvent jewish culture/halachic observance is interwtined in all aspects of every minute of life including the mediums of life: language, dress, conversation,entertainment, etc. with no deviation (maybe a little or else we would all not qualify), ie., "unflinchingly jewish all of the time".
ReplyDeleteGee, this conversation sure veered off the road. HT, maybe delete some of the irrelevancies here?
ReplyDeleteN!
ReplyDeleteWhy the hostility? How did our description realy differ?
peanut, the nature of nailing the truth with words is a driving point that will affect sensibilities... really though..no hostility...litvish is a garbage can term even if you qualify it with frowning down on college...because even those who mouth their distaste for college (the frummer party line), most go and/or are extremely sympathetic to it. And a big number of party liners do other things within the context of american culture that is inconsistent with charedi life. ...just like a lot of modern orthodox lubavitchers...
ReplyDeleteN,
ReplyDeleteThere is a range.
However, if you go to the big "Litvish" style Yeshivos, they are very anti-college. Litvishe / Yeshivishe people are very frum, and should really not be confused with the more baal-habatish strain, just like among all groups where you have the right wingers and the left wingers.
But I do think that the Chareidi term covers the type of people I mentioned, and I still think we are basically saying the same thing - and that Guravitzer is quite conscious of the definition that is intended when the term is used.
peanut, ok, lets hug if you're not a lady....now what? we agree on what chareidi is...do we also agree that lubav's charedi core, the intelegencia is suffering attrition thru death and that they are not being replaced...and that the masses are certainly not chareidi? oy..this is depressing!
ReplyDeleteHirshel Tzig said...
ReplyDeleteBoruch
let's refrain from using personal terms of "non-endearment", shall we?
-------------
Apologies. Just a sign of frustration. I don't even think he's such a bad guy, just unable to think rationally. A peculiar subset of today’s Lubavitch.
Seems like many on this blog agree with me anyway. Now all we need is some solutions which don't involve leaving. Though I think it's gotten so bad, I'd be open to that too.
Boruch
ReplyDeletetechnically if you start your own group or shul you'd be no different than any of the schools that opened in CH recently, so you really wouldn't be "leaving."
Well lets say I live in London or LA, and I'm fed up with the culture/chinuch etc of the local Lubavitch kehilla. It's not possible to start something new (due to the numbers) so what's the next best thing?
ReplyDeleteThere is another problem with your solution. When the kids are young, it might be possible to protect them from the prevailing Lub culture, but what happens when they get older? They go to Yehsiva Gedola and realize that what their parents presented them with is not what all they Lub peers are doing.
so do something about changing the prevailing culture!!
ReplyDeleteTzig, you are such a Lubavitcher you make me laugh.
ReplyDeleteno, Boruchel. If only you'd know me.
ReplyDeleteListen to this Boruch
ReplyDeletewho woulda believed that the Yeshivos would've gotten together and insisted on white shirts for all Bochurim?
Now even the girls schools are making "silly" Takonos.
people who throw their hands up without trying never really mean to change anything.
HT,
ReplyDeleteOur Aussie friends might point out the futility of that approach.
The only solution at this time is to send the kids to "fremde felder."
At least until their are better option, find the best mosdos you can, move there, send your kids to become gruntege metntchen and give them as much chassidus as possible from home.
Boruch, why such a fatalist..its not all or nothing...if a parent gets a kid to 10, 12, 14 years old before he starts to hanker for popular lubav culture..at least the kid is that much farther ahead in his orientation and world view...and maybe if enough parents did something aabout it in the first place there would be other improved popular cultural stains in lubav by the time the kids hit teenagerhood....
ReplyDeleteheshy,
ReplyDeleteimpossible to change predominant culture....possible though to harvest a culture by throwing yourself into the petri(probably french, but not a bad word) dish of a more chareidi lifestyle, including creating a yeshiva, etc.. Once other lubavs see a growing number of free radical lubavitchers transmogrifying into a growing core, more like minded people would join for now there would be a kli, and we would then outgrow the experiment and become more of measuring stick and a guide for other lubavitcher strains...
N
ReplyDeletethe current culture in Lubavitch is relatively new. It can be undone just as quickly.
N,
ReplyDelete"transmogrifying"?
Why is it a culture, and not an anti-culture?
ReplyDeleteguravitzer
ReplyDeletein this case, unfortunately, the anti-culture is the prevailing one, hence the term culture.
H Tzig wrote: "people who throw their hands up without trying never really mean to change anything"
ReplyDeleteNo, Tzigelle. If only you'd know me. I tried very hard, for more than 10 years. I tried to start a cheder class, I tried to fix the school, I tried talking to the parents.
Finally I realized I was knocking my head against the wall. Then I sent the kids elsewhere. BH it's working out well so far. Which is more than I can say for many of my friend’s kids.
Boruch
ReplyDeletewhy then could every Yukel start his own Cheder or girls' school and succeed? Could it be that you weren't going about it correctly?
Every Yukel does NOT succeed. Depending on where you are there is huge pressure and threats. Almost all the clientele (those that want more than what's being offered) work for the existing mosdos. They are threatened with their parnosa, with ostrisization etc. These are not just veiled threats but quite explicit.
ReplyDeleteBesides, most people don't want to rock the boat and be known as trouble makers. I think you need to get back down to earth and realize what is actually going on outside of NYC.
well in NY every Tom, Dick and Harry starts a school.
ReplyDeleteHT,
ReplyDeleteAnd most of thoose schools fail in a few years. Give me examples of successfull schools started by your Tom, Dick & Harry.
Bnos Menachem
ReplyDeleteTzigel, i'm sure boruch tried, but his story is a particular out of town anecdote and probably not uncommon...Lubavitch has no yukels who could start a chareidi yeshiva in New York? I thought every tuvia, daniel, and hendel does it and is matzliach? if thats the case we here are a sad and hopeless bunch...
ReplyDeleteHirshel,
ReplyDeleteThats only one - That hardly qulifies for every tom dick and harry.
Also, how different is it reallllly?
What Lubavitch lacks in every aspect is Doers. That may sound strange with all the Shluchim putting up multi-million dollar buildings, but that is the case in CH as well as other cities. One look at the housing situation in CH can affirm that. Williamsburg has no problem doing, and that includes, housing, organizing, schooling etc.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure a good school in the Charedi style, albeit only Bechitzonius, would have a great response.
The problem out of town, where Shuchim are in charge of the Mosdos, is of a different nature. ואכמ"ל
tziggy,
ReplyDeleteLubavitch non doers, satmer doers? give it some context, satmer spends its resources on 100,000 yiden in two or three places, and lubavitch on 12,000,000 in thousands of locations. Jewish Williamsburg for years has been surrounded on all sides with junk yards and industrial areas, that were bought cheap for the sake of eventual change of zoning so chassididm could make money by selling condos. developers would also want to make money in CH but land with such a low cost basis never existed in CH(whatever did was already built us and sold as condos).
Why do you need to knock all shluchim? And is lubavitch defined by shluchim alone?
If you can say lubavitch doesn't have doers its fair to ask you whats your excuse.. If a lubavithcer sees a need to be filled he doesn't complain...he seeks to fill it, and if he sees fit to complain about it so vigorously so chastisingly his responsibilty to address the issue increases exponentially...perhaps you are more qualified to fill some part of this gap instead of blog pontificating...you are more qualified than many shluchim out there...only difference, they are out ther doing something...
N,
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the point.
The fact remains that on the community level, CH has no people addressing the needs of the community. 770 has not been run like any normal shul during my lifetime. Community needs have always been lacking there - and when they tried Fisher stole all teh $$$.
In no Chareidi (that word again) culture has there been more ineptetude displayed. It's probably a Russian thing.
no options,
ReplyDeleteI get the point..lets clarify..1) CH is not completely synonimous with LUbavitch and we were talking about lubavitch 2) you say nobody is addrssing CH communal needs...what needs are not be addressed?? 3)Ineptitude in attempting what goal? It sounds as if you are coomparing CH to williamsburg. It never attempted to be that on any level so it really didn't fail through ineptitude...
Thanks no-options for having my back.
ReplyDeleteN
you soooo totally misunderstood me, all I said was that although Shluchim seemingly have little trouble organizing, building, and doing, the laymen in CH and other communities do. I did not criticize Shluchim.
What I did say was that those who live in communities where Shluchim were the ones who started the schools do have a harder time dealing with the Shluchim when it comes to making changes in the schools.
The preferred way to go about it is probably to organize parents and then petition the school as a group, not as an individual.
re: Condos in Williamsburg
ReplyDeleteI guess what we need in CH is a coupla guys who really, really wanna make a killing. כנראה אז חסידות האט יע געפועל'ט
HT,
ReplyDeleteLOL
Gettin' close to the 100th post award...
ReplyDeletewe have yet to decide on the name for the award.
ReplyDeleteBy george, I've got it!
ReplyDeletethe קאזענע באבקעס award!
My grandma would say "Tzigidige Bubkas" - which would be very apropriate
ReplyDeleteN,
ReplyDeleteThey used to say, if you want to find a yeshiva where they take care of your needs, go to Williamsburg - but they'll leave you to your own resources in spiritual matters.
However, if you want to go to yeshiva where they'll take care of your spiritual needs go to Lubavitch, but you might starve to death ...
And I hearby claim my Tzigidige Bubkas award
ReplyDeleteCongrats Realist!
ReplyDeleteYes, MB, I will now head to where the קעניג גייט אליין and get your award.
ReplyDeletetziggy, i understood what you said because words mean things and i understand words.
ReplyDelete1) 'its easy for shluchim but hard for laymen to build, accomplish etc....doing is hard for anybody who does. a shliach is not endowed with talent to do (although many are truly extraordinary and talented).
2) are you talking about crown heights? if all a crown heights yeshiva or seminary needs is a petition who needs a shliach to do that? Your suggestion could be completed in a month and walla..new wonderful chareidi yeshivas...
I think the truth needs to be faced. We really have NO CLUE how to run frum kehillos. Whether in CH or any other place. I wonder of this has anything to do with our history in communist Russia where everything went underground 90 years ago?
ReplyDeleteboruch, oh man, how many aliases does Tzemach have?!
ReplyDeleteTzig, major babkes going on, excellent!
no options, on the other hand, there are those who say that Fisher accomplished majorly in settling the shchunah and got the hot end of a shotgun for it. (clarifier: I have no opinion either way on Fisher, just a tremendous obfuscation of the facts due to the fact that the facts have been obfuscated by both sides).
realist, how old is that saying?
ReplyDeleteN,
ReplyDeleteI dont know how old, but I heard it in the early to mid 80's.
I hope to see at shacharis tommorow.
As winner of the most recent Tzigidike Bubkes award I demand some respect round here!
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer,
So, let me ask you, do you think that CH is an example of a community that is well run, well organized, united and properly functioning?
Honestly, I spend too many hours defending Chabad, but that dosen't mean I have to check my brain at the door. It is an embarrasment to everything we hold dear, the way that things function in "Lubavitch ShebeLubavitch."
As far as Fisher, maybe you're right - I don't honestly know. I am only speaking based on what the perception has been. But, maybe he was right and the money was never community money, and he got it in some yerusha that nobody ever knew of... But a poshua Kolel guy became a g'vir and a slum lord, that much we know.
And please get of the TA fixation - he ain't here. Does everyone that disagrees with you have to be TA?!
Sheesh.
In his (warped?) mind yes.
ReplyDeleteBoruch
ReplyDeleteplease refrain from getting personal.
But calling me TA, with all that implies to a card carrying Lub, is OK in your book?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't you like:
ReplyDelete"outing" another blogger is the cardinal sin in blogosphere. We know who you are too. Do not attempt it again, even in a roundabout way, no hinting, nothing. Capisce?
Hey, Tzig, again you single me out. You know very well that I was not the one to give the first hint about him. After what was posted (NOT by me) it was an easy guess, which is all I did.
ReplyDeleteBoruch
ReplyDeleteI did not mention your name. I DID, however, mention "wouldn't you like". אפ'ן גנב ברענט דאס היטל
Ht & Guravitzer,
ReplyDeleteMy apologies. I didn't mean to out anyone.
Actually, Hershel, I'm curious as to who boruch etc. think I am, sort of, and as I wrote to Tzemach, I don't particularly care if I'm outed. I did miss the comment here that supposedly outed me, oh well.
ReplyDeleteit wasn't a full "outing", and Boruch took a guess.
ReplyDeleteActually I though the name was a bit generic and I never meant to out anyone. Apologies.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you curious guravitzer? What do you care about another stupid malcontent ingrate?