in·grate
An ungrateful person.
No, this isn't the name of a new novel or movie, it's a class of people that are just that, ingrates. "Bite the hand that feeds you" is the understatement of the year. These are people who owe whatever their (pathetic) lives are now to Lubavitch and the Rebbe. If not for Shluchim giving them the time of day and a place to feel welcome they would die in obscurity, if you'll excuse me, without their pitiful existence ever being noted. Yet they choose to besmirch the only people that were ever decent to them.
I've spoken to some of their "Bakante" and asked them about it, and they try and explain it. "You need to understand where they're coming from", "they feel like they've been lied to", yada, yada, yada. I'm sorry, but I choose not to be so understanding.
Every person has been lied to or had some truth concealed from him, it's a fact of life. I DO NOT SAY THAT THIS WAS THE CASE, but even if it was it happens, and it's not like he just found out that his father was Pol Pot's executioner. For some reason these "pure souls" are shocked to the core that not everything was revealed to them when they were נתקרב and now they're "exposing" the hidden truths. Excuses are good for a one-time crime or wrongdoing, not for a constant barrage of cut and paste excerpts from a book written by a two-bit loony whose only claim to fame is that he fights Lubavitch for whatever reason.
I do not claim to be a psychoanalyst, but I do know that some of the readers are. I'd like to analyze the need of these people to do what they do. Claiming to be on a quest for "the truth" doesn't cut it either.
heshy, i really tried to follow this post...what are you talking about? I'm clueless..
ReplyDeleteI didn't know that what I wrote was sooo cryptic.
ReplyDeleteI'm referring to websites that are run by ex-Lubavitchers.
N,
ReplyDeleteYou need to realize that this site is a response to another site.
This is what this post is about:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/tzemach/112403824052823386/#94350
they do it to find acceptence in the frum velt
ReplyDeleteGush
ReplyDeletenot necessarily to that particular post, just the general blog.
Amshinover
ReplyDeletewhat acceptance? they do not associate with the frumme velt either! they attack anything "frum" when it suits them too!
I just though that this link summed it up concisely.
ReplyDeleteDon't you guys understand, that anything is allowed when it comes to attacking the Rebbe and Lubavitch in general? Imagine the responses you would get from Schneur and the rest of the folks there if you would attack anyone other then the Rebbe. When you posted about the beketche of the Bobover Rebbe, Schneur was all up in arms about Ahavas Yisroel etc. But when he posts a viscous and slanderous attack on our Rebbe, how he was responsible for the attack on Chana Ch”V, that’s ok. As long as its an attack on the Lubavitcher Rebbe everthing is permitted
ReplyDeletethroughout history there have been many that have been Niskarev through Lubavitch and have left for other circles. Most of them are grateful because if not for them Lubavitch they would probably not be frum today. TA and the other bozo are in a class by themselves. I cannot imagine how these people live with themselves.
ReplyDeletehow many 'ex'lubavitcher run hate websites? how big is their audience? and by the way heshy , by definition the customer is always right, so if the customer doesn't understand what you're ranting about then you're most likely not clear enough.
ReplyDeleteI disagree, I think Heshy was very clear. Sometimes the point is not to say everything as they say "B'Rochel Bitcha Ha'Ktanah", rather "V'Dai L'Chakimah Be'Remizah".
ReplyDeleteWe have been hearing a similar argument to this for many years in Australia. Except that it is not "where would you be if it wasn't for the Rebbe" but "where would you be if it wasn't for the Head Shaliach". That is where the problem lies. I think that 99% of baalei teshuvah would acknowledge their love and respect for the Rebbe - it is some of the chassidim that are the problem.
ReplyDeleteBut I also completely agree with Chaim. This is the problem of Lubavitchers expressing their genuine concerns about what is happing in Chabad today - the Lubavitch haters want to use this as a platform to show that they are correct.
On the other hand Mr Hirshel Tzig, you have to understand that not everyone who critisises hates the Rebbe and Chabad. On the contrary, the love and caring that we feel for the Rebbe and his movement makes us want to cry out when we see things being done which appear to be against what Chabad stands for. If we didn't care so much we wouldn't bother expressing our opinions.
Surely Ahavas Yisroel applies to those who critisise as well as those who agree with us.
Aussie
ReplyDeleteI did not, chas vesholom, accuse you of trying to besmirch Lubavitch, all I said was that you 're being used.
I have heard that the situation in Lubavitch in Melbourne is atrocious, but it's also from what I know, a very unique situation.
Shluchim do, however, abuse their positions.
Well put AE. Good luck with your site.
ReplyDeleteHirshel, I did not take your comments personally.
ReplyDeleteOf course I do not think that I am being used otherwise I would have closed down my blog ages ago. From what I have been told and have seen personally the situation here in Melbourne is not so different from other cities around the world. Sure there are different types of problems but many Anash are still frustrated with their particular situation.
Most people want to lead a quiet life and don't want to get involved in machlokes. When the situation gets to a point that emmeser chassidisher yungerleit are grumbling then it is pretty bad. My blog and others like it give Anash an outlet for their feeings. I have no illusion that the situation will suddenly change by writing anonymous comments on the web but maybe it will lead to some thought by our "leaders". And maybe I am completely delusional!
Aussie, he means you're being held up by Tzemach as a proof for his assertions. In other words, your public discussion of errors in his mind proves that all is rotten with lubavitch from day one.
ReplyDeleteI was finally booted from his blog for one reason only - daring to talk of Barry and Chana as if they are not worthy people. He dares to degrade the Rebbe, those who love the Rebbe, the Rebbes institutions, peulos and teachings, and then claim it is all in the name of "freedom" and "change of the status quo". The truth is, he is simply another communist mind who has no respect. And you support all of that indirectly through your blog. If you feel that the effect your blog will have is worth that, be my guest.
This is all besides for Tzemach's own statements that he feels personally hurt, and that he has shown some pretty bad mental problems on some occasions. If he didn't go to far it would be excusable. I don't care how hurt your poor feelings are, or what kind of medication you take, you have no right to publicly insult anyone, let alone someone through whom you insult thousands of Chasidim.
Guravitzer,
ReplyDeleteSee link below (or just go to the archive for May 05)
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_theantitzemach_archive.html
Read posts:
"Rightfully So"
and "Mission Statement"
HT,
ReplyDeleteHmmm, your site may soon be fully populated by those banned by TA. I guess when you got banned you created a vehicle for those that can no longer be heard at his site to be able to vent.
Interesting phenomenon.
In a hundred years people will think that tzemach was a major force in Jewish history at his time - he even has caused there to be website for the catharsis of his former writers!
The idea was to provide a forum for those who wish to defend all that is dear to them. I see we have begun to succeed, בעז"ה
ReplyDeleteam i really welcome to participate here because 1) i don't really blog around and 2) don't see how being a reactionary to small minds(antagonists) benefits anyone....By definition if the purpose of the website is reactionary it is a weak phenominon and further,if the object of its reaction is inconsequential how much weaker the reactor is. The purpose of the website paints a picture of a sophisticated individual walking behind a dog with a plastic glove ready to pick up the dog's feces whenever the beast has the urge to empty its gut.
ReplyDeleteN
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you feel that way. I guess the man cleaning up after his dog does somw sort of service, he keeps the street clean and serves notice that he's not happy with the crap out there.
the difference though is that the sophisticated human can elect not to own a dog and rather spend his time doing other things...ie, feces collection is a hobby...
ReplyDeleten, there is no way for anyone reading that blog or others to know that they are small minds. The writer and commenters have a very smug attitude on certain issues that can be mistaken for intelligence.
ReplyDeleteAn example of how wrong you are: A certain online forum began a terrible thread against the Rebbe. A group of Lubavitcher reacted to these small minds and created a beautiful forum called chabadtalk.com which developed into much more than just defense.
gurav,
ReplyDeletethe forum is beautiful because it is proactive. It may have been started to fill a need when the originator became aware of negative bloggers...
Cutting the BS, for starters, would do wonders for intellect. While the rationalizations here may be interesting, the bottom line is that almost nobody here cared about any of the problems with TA or his site until they were booted, usually for saying one stupid thing or another.
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of people who are vigirously opposed to TA, and they are still on his blog. Moreover, by taking a clear moral stand - which included a veiled threat to leave without being banned - they have managed to help get one of the more serious kelipos off the site entirely.
Defending what is dear to you will be accomplished by learning, davening, and the occasional farbrengen. Most of the time your blog - in its capacity as the antiTA - is unemployed. It is high time for a reality check.
Very brave of you, ANONYMOUS
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that the only ones that are allowed to remain and post there are the, you'll excuse my French, suck-ups who bow at the altar of TA and let him go on and on about the supposed injustices the Rebbe carried out (ch"v). I happen to know that he and people like him are doing a major disservice by "exposing" the errors and evils of Lubavitch. I try to counter that. Learning and davening time is not affected by my writing activities.
anon, please name someone vigorously opposed to TA who is still on his site.
ReplyDeleteTA & Guravitzer,
ReplyDeleteI've seen Berl, C.E., and I think 770 Bochur, take Tzemach on at times and they all come back from time to time.
People who don't just come there with hatred for TA remain - kemayim haponim...
And Guravitzer, it's your own fault you were banned.
I am a steadfast loyal Lubavither.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as a BT, I have had certain terible experiences with the Rebbe's shluchim. ON the one hand they mekarved me and gave selflessly to do so. On the other hand, these same shluchim wanted to define our relationship as one in which they were the perpetual parent and I would not be allowed to mature. In some cases, I was exploited, used, and metnally abused by these shluchim. Somehow they felt that since they makareved me they then has possession over my soul.
I do not believe this is an isolated case. Some shluchim have their own psychological problems and they get on a power trip.
Am I suppossed to just remain silent about this? Do we sweep these incidents under the rug for the sake of loyalty? They almost ruined my life after I became frum for no other reason than that I wanted to be my own person not under their mental control.
Then there is the issue of the disslusionment that sets in when the BT realizes that to the shaliach your are just his or her pet project, his accomplishment, his peulah, and not a real human being to be respected. Then there is the dissillusionment that comes when you realize that no one ever told you, after yo stopped your career to become frum, that the frum life costs a king's ransom, and you just stepped a few steps backwards in the rat race, so you may never catch up, and may be destined to a life of poverty. ANd will the shluchim care if you are broke? Or will they care if you do not know how to raise your kids in a frum way? Or will they care if you have distanced yourself from your family members by becoming frum and now have no emotional support from them? Not at all! The shaliach is convicned that he gave you the greates gift of being frum and that the BT should be grateful and suffer silently.
The shluchim oftne take no responsibility for the failures they help to create. When the BT is well off and nicely establsihed theb shaliach will love to boast about their 'pet project' but if G-d forbid the BT find themselves in strife either financially, or divorced, or with kids that are screwed up, the shaliach suddenly pretends not to know this person anymore. "Success has many parents but failure is an orphan".
So from a BT that is still loyal to Chabad, don't you talk to me about ingrateful BT's unitl you have learned about the other side of the story too.
Shluchim who mess with people's live have to answer to Hashem for it.
mb, do you also people that it is the rape victim's fault? Tzemach allows mild disagreement on issues unimportant to him, he cannot deal with a hold no punches debateor with someone calling him on being two faced. He tried to continue quoting how evil someone is for allowing and encouraging Chana to be beaten, and then on attack insists he's just quoting, maybe he doesn't agree! No, person after person was banned there for one reason only: Communism.
ReplyDeleteI came there with no hate for TA, thinking he had redeeming values. Found out he didn't. Sorry that you got it wrong.
chitas, feel bad for you (trusting you that your story is true). I'm sure the shluchim in question have a different view. So let me ask you: Are you ready to accept the possibility that your view is only half the story and discuss it? Or are your feelings so precious that you can't leave go?
And more importantly, would you go on record with your name and details of the story (hypothetically, not here on this blog)?
Chitas your pain is palpable. While I don't doubt this was your experience, please keep in mind there is a bigger picture. Not all shluchim are like this, I'm sure.
ReplyDeleteThere are definitely huge problems in our system, and only if people like you speak out, can we hope that those responsible will listen.
Oho, tzig, take a look at TA. Chayim Lieberman is now in play... Rochel indeed. Was it Chana or Nechama Dina that the rumours were about?
ReplyDeleteNote again how Tzemach simply quotes a commenter, effectively shielding himself - after all, he didn't write it, right?
guravitzer wrote: "Are you ready to accept the possibility that your view is only half the story and discuss it?"
ReplyDeleteI think you miss the point entirely. Perception, in this case IS reality.
No boruch, that's TAs problem. He thinks his entire perception is reality, and projects his feelings into institutional failures. If you're feeling down, eat some chocolate. If you want to discuss a real problem, let's do it.
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer, I hope you are not in business. If you were, you would have to realize that the customer is always right.
ReplyDeleteI'm not feeling down at all, and have not shared any of Chitas's experiences. I simply am able to empathize with people more than you seem to be.
It’s just so easy to blame the victim isn't it? That way we can all sleep well at night knowing that we (communally) are not responsible for any of the problems, even as we congratulate ourselves for all our successes. It's a fantastic formula for ridding ourselves of any guilt, much better than chocolate.
If we're in the business of French, then let's cut the merde. Guravitzer, you were not booted for being a "hold no punches debateor", you were booted for saying something that TA found downright repulsive. Specifically:
ReplyDeleteIn other words... you're asking me to muster up some feeling for her. Specifically sorrow, but I'll just give you a general answer: I have no feeling for her one way or another.
Brains. Brains. If you would truly be able to understand people, you would never had said that even if you had thought so.
The names posted by mb are all good examples (incidentally, all 3 know each other), and the one thing that they have in common is that despite having clearly-defined moral stances, they understand where - in the context of a conversation - to leave well enough alone. That is the fine line between "holding no punches" and downright callousness and stupidity. Those who cannot make that distinction have my utmost pity.
I think the basic post was "what makes these guys tick?" no one has really addressed that (where are my mental health professionals?) firstly the runaway narccicism (TA is the more egregious case - many of his kvetches are based on his belief that he is just too beautiful and sensitive for the blogosphere and the proles who populate his world - they don't understand him or appreciate his artsiness)
ReplyDeletethe other guy is a more curious case - ironically, the Besht had his number 300 years ago when he said that the evil we see in others is that which is in ourselves - he is the failed messiah who believed that there would be no obstacles in his enlisting the Rebbe to help with his social activism - when the Rebbe communicated to him (in a quid pro quo fashion) that he had a different agend the FM made it a lifelong task to discredit the Rebbe and everything Chabad - I have it from people that know him that he has started to further disintegrate mentally but does anyone recall ever seeing the words on his site "I was wrong" "I apologize" "I stand corrected" even when he gets called on his flights of fancy.
Interestingly, he shilled an anonymous article in the Jewish Press about his buddy Baruch's kidney transplant needs - interesting since a) he hates the JP, b) he hates those who admire the moetzet leadership and c) he has similar contempt for those who admire chabad - yet he saw his cause as worthy to solicit funds from them - how is he different from the very chabad he criticizes with his tagline "its the money" which according to him is the raison d'etre of chabad - at that point its obvious that he's just motivated by petty jealousy seeing them as thousand dollar a night call girls while he is trolling for tricks in the bus stop rest station
shmuel munkes
anon, let's just say there is more to it than that that I know by other means.
ReplyDeleteBut what might satisfy you: My point was that I think she should not have been beaten, I think no older woman should. But for Schneur and TA it is not enough, one must feel for their cause. I feel bad for her as much as I would for any older woman whom I do not know. She is not a part of my Lubavitch by her choice, and that bothers them. In their minds, I need to hold on to her even though she has rejected "me".
Capisce?
Holding no punches when the fool claims my Rebbe told this gentleman to beat her? You bet.
Chaim Lieberman, Chana, Barry, they're all in play. That's where he has the upper hand, the naysayers always do. If I were to focus soleley on negatives issues and history We'd be rolling in comments and hits.
ReplyDeletechitas,
ReplyDeletewe all have to take responsibility here. when we think of 'shliach' we think of an entity that is so pure and exhalted that any real life shliach would fail to meet our hallowed expectations. Thats not to say that we don't have a few shulichim out there who fall a bit short of normal expectations and have some real flaws, but we certainly have so many wonderful, humble, mesiras nefesh shluchim out there. Now, i don't know how your shliach helped you and then hurt you with frum life....but i do know that a lot of that pain is probably circumstantial...the fact is that you are a BT...You started out in life not at the starting line but ten steps behind. For example, your career was hampered because you probably had to take time out to go to yeshivah or modify your career choice because the work wasn't compatable with frum life or..thats not the shliachs fault....your life just didn't follow an efficient path because of circumstances and more handholding and guidance although desired on your part retrospectively probably wouldn't have compensated for your position in life. Shluchim also have limited resources, meaning they are spending most of their efforts in getting a yid in the door. A shliach is not moshiach. He cant bring a jew who is existentially suffering and behind in practical yiddishkeit and the corresponding life planning (shidduchim, parnosa,..) and transform him into a lechatchila frumy with loving parents who guide him, yeshiva education from youth,.... hatzlocha
Well said N
ReplyDeletemost people don't realize that Shluchim have other responsibilities as well, whether to other individuals or to their families.
Guravitzer,
ReplyDeleteTA made it exceedingly clear that he did not believe that the Rebbe commisioned the beating. He said so on the main page, using the words "we must vehemently protest". What he did say is that the Rebbe certainly knew about it, if not before then after, and nothing big official happened. If you will recall, our main problem with Satmar is rather similar.
Now, there are explanations, valid ones, good ones. In general, even before such explanation, a real Chosid will not have a major problem; NOT because he doesn't care, but because m'ken leben mit a kashye oich. No such limits apply to someone who does not regard himself as a full-fledged chasid; he must endeavor to find the truth of what went on.
What you meant to say there I do not know; what you did say was not very pleasant, especially in that context. Common sense, let alone some sensitivity, (for TA, not Chana) would require you to be quiet. The same goes for quite a few issues on that blog.
HT,
saying nay to the nay-sayers, thereby "keeping the high ground", is ingenuous, to say the least.
Brave Anon,
ReplyDeleteDo you have any words for Chitas above?
The similarity with Satmar ends very quickly. Satmar then flatly denied to renounce the actions of the goons who beat Vechter, even when publicly challenged.
ReplyDeleteHT,
ReplyDeleteI mentioned Satmar just for context. I did not mean to compare the two.
ZL,
I do not have much to say. I certainly know many similar Shluchim. By the way, very well-meaning ones. In the endgame, I do not think that one can saddle the Rebbe with the blame for Shluchim who do rotten things; no-one took away any bechirah from these people. In the end, the fact that the Rebbe took very ordinary people and managed to channel their ordinary petty wants and moral focus (I am speaking purely from a da'as tachton perspective) into much nobler activities, with all disadvantages of these people, is a good thing.
Well said, Brave.
ReplyDelete(And that goes for your post above as well)
Thanks, CE.
ReplyDeleteThough you do not know me, I just got regards from you tonight.
Hmmm, Must be ALC
ReplyDeleteOne of the most respected Rabbis in Chabad, who is a dean of a balas teshuvah yeshivah in CH is one of the most duplicitous individuals one can meet. While this Rabbi has many followers, 90% of them women, he is thought of as a real mench, even a tzadik by some, when in reality he is on power trip.
ReplyDeleteHowever, this self styled Chassidic guru plays mind games with his female minions. He functions like a cult leader, and most of his followers are balei teshuvah and they do not have enough education to question him too deeply so they accept what he tells them. He has alot of power an influence over them and often uses them as he likes without them realizing.
This Rabbi tells some of his female followers how to live, sometimes advising them on the most personal aspects of thier lives, even mixing in with whom they marry, if they should tay married, and like a guru, he guides many of their lives.
Some of his followers have had major failures in thier lives because of his advice. He has created alienation between some balei tehsuvha and thier parents, and he has advised some to stay married and have children only to have them later on divorced with many children and no one to care for them. He takes no repsonsiblity for the failures and pretends he has little to do with thier lives. This Rabbi-guru hides his influence but all the while he manipulates the women's minds and play power games and machlokes behind the scenes.
chitas, if you are talking about who I think, I probably agree with you. Now, what are you going to do about it?
ReplyDeleteBrave anon of Atlanta, in other words, TA talks out of both sides of his mouth. He's just stupid enough do try to do it at the same time in the same place.
Chitas,
ReplyDeleteYour tale is heart-rending.
I wonder how it is that "Lubavitch" can never take the blame, and all negative factoids are blamed on indivduals when the good points get crdited to Lubavitch / the Rebbe Z"L.
Why is it a one way steet?
I have respect for Lubavitch and the Rebbe and I go to Lubavitcher functions, but this type of logic sounds like lehavdil the Catholics who say that all the killing of Jews trought the history of their religion was not by "real" catholics... Vda'l.
chitas, how do you know such intimate aspects of private goings on between this rabbi and so many ladies? because their lives may have fallout, why is everything his fault? Life is filled with mitigating circumstances, how much more so for BTs trying to make it in a frum context. If you say that most consider him a mench and a tzadik how can you have such a big question on his advice to these people?
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I question this "Zalmen Leib" charachter's sincerity.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if you question me.
I am not trying to bash anyone, really I'm not. I like everyone, and I realize that everyone has their faults, but from reading the blogs (like this one), I don't really think that there is alot honesty about this.
Why can't people recognize flaws?
BTW - I come from Williamsburg. I left and became a regular frum guy - and I do so after I recognized real faults in the system. I think it's a good thing to recognize those faults - wherever they may be.
ReplyDeleteI don't hate people that I feel messed up. Thery are human. I just dont accept them as beyond reproach.
ok, fair enough. I'll take your word for it. Lubavitch is different at recognizing flaws, they don't see any flaws, and those that do are considered sellouts and worse.
ReplyDeleteN wrote 'because their lives may have fallout, why is everything his fault?"
ReplyDeleteIt is his fault when he takes over their lives, and uses mind control in a guru like manner over his followers, and takes no responsibility for it. He hides very well, acting like the kindly caring mashpia, who charms the women by making them feel he is their best friend. Some of these women are vulnerable because of their own problems and he takes advantage of their vulnerablility, and manipulates and uses them for his own ends. You think this is ethical?
The shaliach should be teaching them Torah and helping them to become frum, but he should not be using his position of power in reference to vulnerable balei teshuvah women to manipulate them.
This Rabbi teaches that his view represent the ultimate Chassidish perspective on things and holds himself up as the epitomy of a chosid. If the followers question his shittahs or start listening to another Rabbi he tells them they are not as Chassidish as they should be. The women are in transition, or insecure about being frum, and so they want to be Chassidish, and they want to please thier guru, so he can therefore control them.
I was a student of this Rabbi. Several times he used me to fight his machlokes, seceretly, he asked me to do his dirty work against other Rabbis with whom he had hatred. And I did it to please him. No one ever knew it was him behind it, no one ever knew it was me being sent by him.
This is not just about blaming the Rabbi for the problems his students had in thier lives, this is about his penchant for mind control, and how he gets a big ego boost by being a cult like guru over scores of vulnerable balei teshuvah women. And this is sick.
Serius accusations indeed. I was aware that he was a power-hungry individual, but this?
ReplyDeletechitas, its obvious that you hold the rabbi in contempt but what actual dirty work did you do? I don't really care, but you are lambasting him seemingly just because he is admired by many....and you no longer admire him.....
ReplyDeleteChitas,
ReplyDeleteI do not know who it is, but I find the accusations a bit incredible.
Could it be that your getting carried away here?
I've dealt with various shluchim, and they all had their flaws, but were all-in-all good people. I personally know of situations, where I was involved, and individuals got hurt - for whatever reasons (not intentionally) - and they came up with ideas of conspiracy and erroneous accusations that they really believed.
Being that I WAS involved, I knew they were wrong, but others did believe them.
Everyone meant well, and real people were unintentionally hurt, but that does not mean they were right in their suppositions. I wonder if the same might be true in this case...
why would any guru be sick, wouldn't the followers be the sick ones?
ReplyDeleteI was hoping that I could get a better resonse than the one "Anon" gave above.
ReplyDeleteAnyone?
Maybe Brave Anon can comment?
Tell me who it is and I'll take care of him!
ReplyDeleteZL,
ReplyDeleteI'm not really sure what kind of response you expect. Maybe you can clarify.
I do not think that anyone disagrees that there are shluchim that could be doing their job better than they are now, more ethical than they are now, etc. The Rebbe did not send out a host of angels on Shlichus; he sent ordinary men and women, all of whom have very ordinary, human, not-necessarily-holy wants and desires; base physical ones, honor, power, etc. They learned some Torah and Chassidus first, now it is up to them to implement that or not, just as with any other people. To this extent, it is difficult to blame the Rebbe for their doing bad things. The only argument worth attention is that he should not have sent them in the first place, being that they were not angels. I will try to explain why this is IMHO incorrect.
In the end, it seems clear that it is better that these very ordinary people should spend most of their day doing good work. There would be no less creepiness in the world if they would be stock brokers or real estate con people; as it was, xx more people were exposed to Torah.
A simple analogy: G-d entrusts us with the tools and the choice to do good or bad; it follows that if we choose to do bad, this is His fault. We Jews believe otherwise.
Brave Anon,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your response.
Let me clarify. I understand and respect what you are telling me, but it still seems to me that if the stuff I see on these blogs or hear is mostly true, shouldn't that be a least some kind of reflection on the movement?
Personally, I love many people I knew growing up in Williamsburg, and I think the Satmar Rav Z"L was a great man. But many things that went on on that I simply cannot "give a pass" to. I have left the circle, the group, the movement.
I happen to still respect him, butI think he was wrong at time, and right at others. Ultimately, the buck must stop at his desk.
I like the Litvishe better for this reason, They never claim "infallablity."
Lubavitch has many beautiful qualities, but shouldnt the Rebbe / movement have some responsonsibility for the acts for Shluchim - especially ehen it is not an isolated incident?
(Sorry for my Ungarishe english spelling)
Sincerely,
Zalmen Leib
Again: it depends on what kind of responsibility. If we are discussing general issues, yes; if we are discussing general policy, yes; if we are discussing the possibility that someone would sin based on following the Rebbe's advice, yes. If we are talking about ordinary, street-level, "grass-roots" problems, then no: because ascribing responsibility for that on the Rebbe effectively means that the Rebbe must micro-manage, something that the Rebbe did not do. There have been lengthy and illuminating discussions on the topic on the mother blog.
ReplyDeleteAnd BTW, not to get into partisan politics, but if there was ever a group that deified its' "Gedoilim", it was/is the Litvishe. See the Laibel Zionce (Zajac, whatever) post early on in this blog and the ensuing conversation. These people can truly do no wrong, whether it be building new shuls in Jerusalem with money they got for supporting a government that throws Jews out of their homes, or whatever else...
out of towner said... "I do not know who it is, but I find the accusations a bit incredible.
ReplyDeleteCould it be that your getting carried away here?"
That is a big part of the problem. Because the Rabbi is so manipulative and secretive, most people would never believe that he would be capable of doing any wrong, but he is. His public person is well cutlivated, like any cult leader's would be. He is charismatic, charming, clever, and like any sociopath would be. Ever heard of Ted Bundy the serial killer? Why even the judge during his trial found it hard to believe was capable of doing any wrong. This Rabbi is not a serial killer, but he does alot of damage to people's lives spiritually and emotionally. And if anyone complains about him, most people, before knowing the facts, will side with the Rabbi because of his sterling reputation.
But there are others who also hold him in contempt.
For years this Rabbi was like a father to me. Until I grew up and then he betrayed me and tried to destroy my life. Wh? Because I became an independent person, because I refused to fight his machlokeses for him any longer. He did not wind up destroying me, but he did do me damage. Thank Hashem I survived it intact, much to his chagrin.
His dedication to mekarving women is not a pure holy one. He hides his motivations under a holy guise. He loves the power trip, loves the ego boost of having hundreds of women hanging on his every word, looking up top him as a guru. He may complain about his burden and how difficult it is trying to make people think he has mesiras nefesh, but in reality his emotions are completely tied up into getting female admiration.
He does not do this is a sexual way at all, but as a father figure, and his control is over the minds and hearts of his student, and in some cases it can be almost total control.
He is a sick person who pretends to be very humble but whose ego is so out of control, that he has convicnced himself that his tzadik pretense is true.
Some of us know differently. One day he will have to pay for what he has done to me an others, meanwhile this is olan hasheker and mostly everyone in Chabad thinks he is the epitome of a chosid.
rabbi m. said...
ReplyDeleteTell me who it is and I'll take care of him!
Rabbi M., I think you already know who it is. Let Hashem take care of him in His good time.
chitas, i had enough, you need psychological counsel...and your mental state is no excuse for loshan hora. You attempted to drag a man in the mud publically without identifying any particular deed on his part that is problematic. get a life!
ReplyDeletece: thanks for the dose of thoughtful and clear thinking.
Brave anon, you narrative is palitable until you denigrate shluchim as a whole. The whole is an incredible phenomina and the whole performs tremendously. This is clear to any objective observer like water is wet. What you can do with credibility is perhaps critisize individual shluchim based on your experiences. You are not discussing a general problem but rather saying loshen hora. maybe you should get a life as well.
My dear n,
ReplyDeleteI did not criticize Shluchim in general, a cursory reading of what I said indicates the exact opposite; that the "whole", as you refer to it, is enough to justify the undeniable breaches of trust that take place. These are numerous enough to constitute a problem, and because this problem is not in any one person but stems from normal human nature, this problem will not be resolved anytime soon. I was trying to explain why the system is more than justified nonetheless. I urge you to simply reread what I wrote above.
Your outburst I will attribute to simple party loyalty, a phenomenon which in certain instances has its positive effects as well.
to n
ReplyDeleteThis guru does many different things in his sick attempt to have control. As a control freak he tries so separate balei teshuvah women from their close relatives and friends, to isolate them, so that he and only he can be the closest and most influenctial person in their lives. This is done subtley, not overtly. He has closed yichiduses with his students, each individually alone with him, and no one else knows what is said in these closed meetings. This is how he counsels them.
By denigrating a balas teshuvah's parents, or siblings, or other people who are close to her, while he is in transition and vulnerable, he replaces them in her life with himself, and then he has a svengali influence on her.
He also asks his followers for favors at times. These 'favors' could include making telephone calls anonymously to certain Rabbonim and saying a message the Rabbi would never have the guts to relay himself. Or these favors could include asking certain people for funds for a 'project' of his, or these favors could include having influence on other women to do his bidding. He knows many secrets of the women uses emotional blackmail against them if they threaten to challenge him. He can isolate a particular woman by bad mouthng her, making up stories about her, to her friends, or to the other mashpiam or Rabbis, and in this way, by using social pressure, he can assert his control.
He also manipulates women by educating them to abide by his shittahs, and teaches her to look down on those who have different shittahs, and in this way he creates students who emulate his divisive and sneaky ways.
He gets the women to feel sorry for him and to be protective over him and to help him b'gashmias and to defend him against enemies. He does have enemies because he has stepped on enough toes ithrough the years and ruffled enough feathers, but he has built a wall of protection by having all these women around him who are in awe of him so, he becomes beyond criticism.
A control freak is a sick individual who cannot control his impulse to control others. A clever control freak is dangerous.
I think n you are the one with the psychological problem since you are in denial that this is possible, that such a person is actualy like this. People have many sides to them that they do not wshow in public.
Chitas,
ReplyDeleteI feel terrible that you had to experience the dark-side of the human condition.
We live in a world where perception becomes reality, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. I realize that this is upsetting to you, for you feel the perception does not match your reality, and your frustration is real.
I hope you can move on and forget about him, as many people have to do in many similar situations.
On the other hand, you have your own perception, which may not be "reality." I'm sure he has his flaws, but I doubt he's as all bad as you believe. (Along the lines of what I've said elsewhere, "Things are never as good as the sugar-coaters say, and never as bad as the critics postulate.")
I wish you well, and hopefully you will be able to forget about these troubles to the point that they remain no more than a vague memory. Be strong, and trust in G-d - we all believe Moshiach will be here soon.
And N,
You exposed me! I hadn't commented "officially" ;-). But I admit that I was "Out of Towner" above.
chitas, again if it's the one we all mean, he did have to pay briefly when he was booted from his previous Institution. That he was able to not only grow and thrive, but even took the institution name with him, is part of the problem that you describe.
ReplyDeleteHonestly though, unless you are infallible (as Zalman Leib seems to think he is), how would you know of many stories of abuse, other than your own? Have you truly investigates this, spoken one on one with the actual woman (not hearsay) and had a verbal account? Or did this happen with you, and you globalized your feeling?
Me infallible?
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about?
I think all people are a fallible - Rebbes & Chassidim, Roshei Yeshiva & Pashute Yidden included.
Brave Anon,
Maybe you're right about the Litvishe, I don't know. It just seems that way to me.
Most Shluchim who have political disputes will use their Mushpo'im to do their dirty work for them. Most of the naive Mushpo'im nebach think they're doing something holy.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeletenice of you to take your shot under cover of "anon" - how hard is it to pick a name?
ZL,
ReplyDeleteOn the blogs you will get lots of negative and very little positive for balance.
Sure, when you turn a relatively small group into one of the Biggest religious groups in the world - and the ranks are filled with all kinds of people - you will have tales of woe. But who reports the tales of joy? Well, those tales are boring - they lack shock value and excitement.
I don't think people will deny that Lubavitch has flaws, that's because it's made of real people, in galus.
But, if you want to place the blame on the Rebbe's desk, you'll have to show us a case where the Rebbe supported or encouraged the improper act.
The difference between Lubavitch and other groups you may know, is that the Rebbe didn't micro-manage, or pull all the strings from on high - He wanted humans, flawed humans, to do incredible things. His success was incredible, and the price he paid was significant as well.
Sorry, I meant to say:
ReplyDeleteHis success was incredible, and admittedly the price he paid was significant as well.
chitas, you say that this rabbi twists women's minds. I believe that if you didn't come to him with an inate problem, you certainly acquired one. Please do yourself a favor and get some counseling...
ReplyDeleteThank you CE & Brave Anon (and plain Anon).
ReplyDeleteYou're very welcome, "Zally"
ReplyDelete:)
(sorry, couldn't resist)
ce, you said,'Along the lines of what I've said elsewhere, "Things are never as good as the sugar-coaters say, and never as bad as the critics postulate.")
ReplyDeleteI cannot abide by such a perception. Why do people make up such 'rules' in their lives about how things are before examining how things are without bias? Does this 'rule of perception' of yours shield you from seeing something if it is very, very, bad because you do not want to see it? Sometimes things are very, very good, like the Rebbe is good, and sometimes they are very, very bad, as we can all show examples. Grow up! This is the real world!
n said, "you say that this rabbi twists women's minds. I believe that if you didn't come to him with an inate problem, you certainly acquired one. Please do yourself a favor and get some counseling..."
n, why would I need counselling? It is easy to twist someone's mind when 1) they are young and vulnerable because they are becoming frum and their life is in flux 2) the one doing the twising is older, more experienced clever and charming, manipulative and a respected authority figure. Are you saying only those with a problem get their minds twisted? How naive of you to assert this!
guravitzer said, "again if it's the one we all mean, he did have to pay briefly when he was booted from his previous Institution. That he was able to not only grow and thrive, but even took the institution name with him, is part of the problem that you describe."
The reason he is able to grow and thrive is because he has such a svengali influence on so many women, that those who would like to put him in his place are afraid to because. If they tried to put him in his place they would have to face the hatred of the Rabbi's minions against them, as he influences them to see him as a scapegoat, he garners not only their affection, and their respect, but their sympathy. He functions exactly like a cult leader--telling his followers who is 'good' and who is 'bad' and who to love and who to hate.
This is how he maintains his power. He also brain washes his minions to be in his poltical camp, telling loshon hora gainst those from another political camp poisining his women against them. Many women are convinced that the people whom this Rabbi has machlokes with are very bad people and are not real Chassidim. He uses his women for his own machlokes. Very sneaky, all under the cloak of being so holy.
To those of you who do not believe any of this and think I am the one with the problem, I suggest you
educate yourselves on the dynamics of how cults operate and specifically study how charismatic cult leaders function. Then you will have insight instead of being in denial and talking out of ignorance of these matters
Chitas,
ReplyDeleteNobody wishes you harm here - relax a little.
We heard what you had to say, do you really think that we should go hate Rabbi M. because you said so?
Would you expect Jews to hate you if someone told me this about you?
We will take what you said and consider it together with all the other information we have and make out judgements.
If you want action, you must go to the Rabbonim or leaders, not just rant in the Tent here. The ranting & raving will only cause people like M to think youre unbalanced.
Zalman Leib, if you are fallible, then your opinion on the wrongs that you see around you may be fallible as well. But you show no such hesitation. I conclude that you believe your opinions are infallible.
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer,
ReplyDeleteOk, you're right. I'm goin back to Williamsburgh to cut off the beards from guys like you.
'We heard what you had to say, do you really think that we should go hate Rabbi M. because you said so? '
ReplyDeleteNo I do not. I want people to recognize that this type of abusive behaviour is possible, and not to dismiss it outright.
'If you want action, you must go to the Rabbonim or leaders, not just rant in the Tent here. The ranting & raving will only cause people like M to think youre unbalanced. '
Why is it that a woman is always accussed of ranting and raving and being unbalanced when she says something that certain men do not want to hear or accept? The woman who makes a complaint about one of the male pillars establishment will always be considered by the men to be hysterical. Isn't it just like the woman who screams she has been raped and is accussed of exaggerating or being unbalanced? The boys stick together, don't they?
The Rabbi is power hungry and abusive. There are other women who know this but, as public perception is reality to most, he is not being exposed.
Speaking of mental health, the Rabbi's mental health is the one's we should be questioning, especially in light of the fact that he has so much influence.
ReplyDeleteDuring my time in his mosod, I knew many women who needed psychiatric help. But this Rabbi would almost never refer any of these unbalanced women to psychologists and, often told me he did not believe in psychology at all, and that these women only needed to learn Chassidus. He said the Tanya would fix them up.
So, many women did not go get the help they needed, and they became 'frum', in this Rabbis' mode, as he guided them. And many of them got married, and had kids...and the rest of the story is that their lives and the lives of their families wound up as monumental disasterous failures. And does anyone question this Rabbi? Not at all, since he is given a pass. Not only that, he is considered to be doing great and holy work, the Rebbe's work. And he cleverly distances himself from the failures, pretending he had little or nothing to do with them, when in fact the opposite is the case, as he was their main mentor and strongly guided their paths in life, often down to tiny day to day details. He will often make up all kinds of lies about anyone of the women who challenge his suppossedly sagacious wisdom or those who challenge him by stating that these women have 'problems', feigning concern for them, when in reality he perceives them as a threat.
All this is done under the guise of being the wise and experienced mashpia who only wants the best for each woman, and under the guise of being completely selfless, bitul, and moser nefesh for the inyan of kiruv. That is the public persona he successfully conveys when in reality his well hidden agenda remains quite dark indeed.
He is a good little politician and often I have thought he missed his true calling! Either that or a cult leader would have suited him just fine!
Guravitzer, I take back my earlier remarks. In light of who you are showing yourself to be now, your earlier remarks on mentalblog appear quite civilized, relatively speaking.
ReplyDeletechitas, if the rabbi brainwashes and exerts mind control, it is safe to say that all thoise close to him have been victimized...If one is victimized he suffers thereafter and by definition can't heal himself...he is simply not equiped and to close to the situation. I urge you to seek out a rov and a therapist. YOu may think that you overcame the Rabbi's 'crimes' but you are apparently still sufffering. Any denial of these open wounds is not only an ineffective method to deal with trauma but a festering boil that will someday pop in a big way. we care about you here in the circus tent so i put seeking a therapist/rov idea up for a vote!! here here raboisai, all in favor...whats your vote?
ReplyDeleteAtlanta Braves Anon (or should I say Tzemach, and get it over with?), I think I see now. Denying the infallibility of a rebel is a cardinal sin. How silly of me, I should have known that.
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer,
ReplyDeleteI am a regular shmo, and I don't pretend to be anything more than that. I have many faults without question.
Now, according to you it seems that we can never question any group to which we belong. We can never ask if something is really functioning properly. We must just go like sheep and stay in line - no matter what.
Let me tell you that I really can't understand why an intelligent human being would do that.
I believe that G-d makes the rules, and not just anyone who was born to the right family.
I still dress chassidish, but I think that Chassidic groups have become no more than any tribal clans, led by monarchs who inherit positions but have never earned any right to be followed. This also explains why I think the Litvishe have a better system - but it might just be because the grass is always greener...
Thank you to Brave Anon for the intellectual honesty and insightful answer. Guravitzer, I think youre probably a nice guy, but you are exactly the same as the Satmerer that you probably have very little respect for. They follow order too.
guravitzer, I can't believe how pathetic you have become. You got booted from a blog! Just a blog! I understand that SZ's obnoxious finger pointing at all Lubavitchers for the unfortunate CG beating (that everyone in Lubavitch repudiated at the time it happened) was really annoying and can I see why you felt like saying something to get him ticked off. But what you said was worded very badly. And so you got booted. Get over it.
ReplyDeleteBTW - stop presenting yourself as someone who was "fighting the good fight" on mentalblog. Prior to your “I do not care about CG” blurb you were mostly busy kissing TA’s seating muscles. Now you have undergone a personality transplant and became his chief detractor.
I stay awake at night worrying that the all-powerful Rabbi M. will send his mindless robots to close down this website.
ReplyDeleteAnd here I thought that he was just a small person who davens quietly behind the Bimah. Shows how naive I am.
Wouldn't it be funny id we find out one day that TA and HT are really one & the same?
ReplyDeleteAnd that they (he) secretly work(s) for Chabad
ReplyDeleteOn the other site, there is an award given to the 100th poster to a thread.
ReplyDeleteYou know, this one is getting close... (95?)
n, shluchim do have a repsonsibility to the people they mekarev. If their only priorities are to swell their ranks and fundraise then they are not different than cult leaders. The menchlik thing and the ahavas yisroel-dik thing is for shluchim to be careful when the mess with people's lives.
ReplyDeleteI also fail to undertstand how you come to the conclusion that I am in need of therapy simply because I describe the abuse of the Rabbi mentioned above. How does that make me ill in your view? My life is quite successful and intact, thank G-d, despite suffering the said Rabbi's abuse. However, there are many other students of his, although they may seem settled, married, 'frum', etc., whose lives are not as together as they appear to be, and this Rabbi is directly repsonsible for their sorry psychological state.
Stop blaming the victim. Stop trying to deny the problems. This Rabbi is but one example of what I am sure are many other shluchim, who regardless of their good intentions, should take much more heed for the psychological well being and the quality of life for those they mekarev for this effects generations to come.
There's no baseball team named cowardly, is there? shucks. Yet another gilgul of Tzemach? Who thinks anonymous posts are terrible? Who thinks you need to stick to only one nickname? In case you noticed, there is only one way of staying on TAs blog, as you point out. Obviously I don't care that much, as I made the comments that had me censored (and the straw that broke the camel's back for his moderating comments, which will hopefully make the entore blog die). I care more about the fact that the blog exists than whether I am on it..
ReplyDeleteZalman Leib, so if I disagree with you and consider your opinions on Satmar etc. fallible, that makes me just like the Satmar leadership? So the problem with the Satmar leadership is that they deny your infallibility at pointing out errors? I'm still chasing the cat's tail on this one.
The funniest thing would be to find out that HT, TA, and FM are all Moshe Feller.
chitas, really, the funny thing is that together with the valid points you raise you make HTs point very clear - being an ingrate is very popular.
Guravitzer, I am as much from Atlanta as I am Tzemach. Not everyone who thinks that you were booted from mentalblog for being an a## is Tzemach's gilgul. Furthermore, not everyone who accepts the same standard for deciding whether someone's accusations are true as the standard of evidence one accepts for everyday decisions such as where to invest my money, which Cheder to send my children to, and so on and so forth, is a Tzemach. These are all simply examples of normal people. I wish you would honestly reevaluate your position on many things in life. As there is ample evidence of, you are definitely intelligent enough to make the effort worthwhile.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I hereby claim my 100th commenter award.
I am not sure where exactly we lost our knei midah. When did the ability for intelligence, rational thought, critical thought, airing dirty laundry, feeling hurt and musar supersede Ahavas Hashem, Yiras Hashem, Emunas Chachomim, Ahavas Yisroel and other pure emotions?
ReplyDeleteBrave Anon,
ReplyDeleteI suspect that you've won the award before.
Gurav,
Anyone who reads MB knows that Brave is not TA. He is one of the three mentioned above, and you can rule out CE (unless that conversation between them above was to throw us off)
That leaves 2 others, and it seems like it begins with a 7, but I suspect it's the big B.
Brave
ReplyDeletenow if I'd only know how to get it to you :)
HT,
ReplyDeleteYou must add a line to the original post in block letters congratulating Brave Anon for winning the prestigious 100th poster award!
On MB it's the "mental-block" award, I dunno what you would call it here... The circus metaphor may not work so well...
HT,
ReplyDeleteYou must add a line to the original post in block letters congratulating Brave Anon for winning the prestigious 100th poster award!
On MB it's the "mental-block" award, I dunno what you would call it here... The circus metaphor may not work so well...
It's the Master Clown Award.
ReplyDeleteBoruch
ReplyDeletenot all performers in the circus are clowns.
Sure, but the clowns are the most beloved.
ReplyDelete