Reb Yisroel of Stolin, the "Yenuke".
It seems like the great lie is spreading, and fast. For some reason people think that it was the Misnagdishe Yidden that kept Torah alive in the Russian Empire. They also think that Chabad was one big happy "Frei-out Party". Why anyone would think that is beyond me.
Here's one of those opinions, that of "emes", (ironic name for this poster)
"If your going to be melech cheshbon already you can make a cheshbon and figure out why there are so few Lubavitchers today that go back doirois in Lubavitch,considering that is a Chassidus of over 200 years old,one of the oldest Chassidesen.And don't say that Stalin and Hitler ymsh killed them all because that isn't true.The answer is that a very large amount of children of anash left the Chabad derech.Way before (but not only before) Hitler and Stalin." ע"כ
Off the top of my head let me see if I can make a rough accounting of the situation before WWII.
Karlin existed for the most part in Vohlin and Podolia. The numbers are unclear to me off hand, but from the Zichronos books that I've seen it seems that there were lots of old chassidim, but not many young ones to show for.
Slonim had a few hundred families, they had bochurim learning in Baranovitch by Reb Elchonon, hy"d, but how many? and that was in Poland, not Russia.
Anybody know any old-time Boyaners or Sadigerer Chassidim from Russia that didn't emigrate to America or Israel?
Does Skver have ONE chossid from RYY's father? ONE?!
(Reb Shlayme Chaim Kesselman, Mashpia in YTTL)
In Lubavitch after WWII there were HUNDREDS of families, YEREIM U'SHLAYMIM, that left the SOVIET UNION, not Rumania or Poland, or Lithuania, but the SOVIET UNION, where hundreds went missing and were killed for Harbotzas HaYahadus and Teyreh.
How many Litvishe yidden that weren't Greyse Kep stayed religious? Read the books and you'll see that the vast majority were not! even living in independent Lithuania where Teyreh was available to all (just not in yeshiva if you were not a genius.)
(HaRav YM HaLevi Epstein of Novohorodok, the Aruch HaShulchan)
Hitler had his way with Chabad too, Maybe not as much as in Poland, but as much, if not more, than in Hungary-Rumania.
I would dare say that most of Chabad didn't survive, but LUBAVITCH did.
Just fyi about Slonim:They were not learning by R'Elchonon, rather in their own Slonimer yeshiva in Baranvitch headed by the famous go'on and kodosh R'Moshe Midner.so to the slonimer Rebbe resided in Baranovitch.
ReplyDeleteand let us not forget lulov that came to arrest thr FR
ReplyDeletevml
ReplyDeletethat was supposed to say in baranovitch AND by Reb Elchonon, sorry.
Eli
ReplyDeleteforget what, who forgot?
and why the name "Dishon"?
in comparing who went off the derch and to what extent and from what backgrounds
ReplyDeletewhy don’t we focus our energies on how to bring back all yidden to be shomer torah umitzvos whether chabad, gur, belz, or ponavitz
HT,
ReplyDeleteI am amazed at the stupidity of the comments expressed by "emes' (sic).
I realize that with the anonymity of the blog any wacko can post whatever they want - so I hope that this fellow doesn't represent any segment of the population. At least I certainly hope that is the case.
If there is a growing segment of the frum world that shares his views it just may convince me that I should get "yellow fever..." Vda"l
I guess we can all agree that it was the yeshivos of all stripes that saved Yiddishkeit. So, why then weren't all children encouraged to stay in Yeshiva like they are today? Just for economic reasons?
ReplyDeleteCE,
ReplyDeleteYou are 'amazed' at the 'stupidity' of the comment by emes.
Care to explain?
You go so far as to 'mutter under your breath' threats.....Lol, what drama!
Emes made a statement which rings
true to me:A couple of hundred families from the millions of Jews left in Russia is a drop in the bucket.Lubavitch was by far the most dominant chasidus in Russia, what happened to the six hundred thousand chasidim of the Zemach Zedek(This number was what was claimed in his day, obviously not a real scientific number but just proof that Lubavitch had a very large following even than)
CE, please act like a 'bar da'as', if you disagree explain why,don't be a brainless demagogue.
VML
ReplyDeleteit is well known that of the countless Chassidim that traveled to the TT most went to Kopust, and Liadi, and later to Bobruysk. The Rebbe Maharash had little to speak of. The fact that Lubavitch was alive and well during the shvere tzeiten in the Soviet Union proves that the hard work of Lubavitch did pay off. The others can lay no such claim.
what will bad with this post
ReplyDeleteit is well known that of the countless Chassidim that traveled to the TT most went to Kopust, and Liadi, and later to Bobruysk. The Rebbe Maharash had little to speak of. The fact that Lubavitch was alive and well during the shvere tzeiten in the Soviet Union proves that the hard work of Lubavitch did pay off. ,
why do you need to add this line
The others can lay no such claim.
does the hard work off Lubavitch get any esier does it pay off any more
Eli
ReplyDeletethe line was meant to accentuate the opposite of what the poster wwanted to prove, that not only is what he said untrue, the opposite is true, i.e. the others did a pretty sloppy job. Not to bring out the shortcomings of other groups.
i dont see how this proves that the others did a sloppy job and why mention that at all why dont just prove that a lot of hard work of Lubavitch did pay off
ReplyDeletenice to see that some people are open to the emes here.If some people want to fool themselves that Lubavitch didn't and doesn't have a big problem of people going off the derech,like other groups,just others did,they can believe such a bubba maysoh.Maybe the next thing they will claim is that no Lubavitchers went off the derech, just one,Zalman Shazar, and that was because he lived in a snag town, so it's the fault of the snags.
ReplyDeleteemes
ReplyDeleteLet's not get carried away here. Nobody's denying anything. We just don't want you to deny anything either. There were many, many more, sadly, we know that.
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if I'm wrong please:Were you trying to say that many left CHABAD i.e the other descendants of the Z.Zedek like Kopust etc but not from Lubavitch?
If that was you meant, than you appear to agree that Chabad chasidus was not a guarantee against leaving the Torah way.I believe that that was the general gist of the poster 'emes'.So basically you agree?
Btw, it was a bit of a chidush for me that the founder of The Jewish Thelogical Seminary and the Conservative movement,Solomon Shechter was from Lubavitch
ReplyDeleteVML
ReplyDeletethe Kopuster basically held, although not fully, that Chabad as the derech HaBesht was over, and that the Giluy HaChassidus was only for 150 years. I guess it's like a Kofer B"Tchiyas HaMeisim, you don't get olom haboh if you don't believe that you'll be around to get it. If you believe that Chassidus is over with, then you don't reap its benefits!
The Rebbe Rashab stressed the fact that חסידות וועט לייכטען ביז משיח'ן, and practiced it, so his Talmidim were the beneficiaries.
The real truth why Lubavitch outlasted the others is probably in the idea of a real yeshiva an idea Rash'ab copied from the misnagdim.Tomchei Temimim and later the underground yeshivas was what kept the youth frum.
ReplyDeleteI know the yeshiva was founded only about a hundred years ago when Lubavitch was already the dominant Chabad stream, but still...
The Misnagdim came up with the Yeshivah idea? wow! and I thought there were Yeshivos for thousands of years already!, silly me.
ReplyDeleteThere were yeshivos for thousands of years but in the organized fashion that we know it today is attributed to r' yisreol salenter
ReplyDeleteLimaaseh, there were losses from all machanos. We weren't zoche to hear from Kurenitzer lately, but maybe one of these days we will hear from him and he will shed some light on the matter.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, let's talk about something important here.
What beatiful headgear in some of those photos !. The Aruch Hashulchon and the Stoliner Rebbe look so beautiful in their hats ! Why aren't there Stoliner today (at least the Rebbe) wearing such a hat (or whatever the proper term for it is)? We could ask the same re misnagdim/Litvaks as well. TA once had a post on bring back the old Lubavitch headgear. That should go for others too, not only Lubavitch.
השיבנו ה' אליך ונשובה חדש ימינו כקדם
"the Kopuster basically held, although not fully, that Chabad as the derech HaBesht was over, and that the Giluy HaChassidus was only for 150 years."
ReplyDeleteCan you provide mokor/mekayrays and perhaps more info on that ?
Re other matters - of course there were Yeshivas for a long time. The Litvishe/misnagdishe Yeshiva was different in that previously Yeshivas were usually connected to the local kehilla and under the local Rav, and many/most of the talmidim were locals. The modern Litvishe Yeshiva, from Rav Chaim Volozhiner, made a Yeshiva that was independent of the local kehilla and that drew talmidim from far and wide. When it is said that Chassidim adopted it, it means that their Yeshivas were of similar type. There is a book by S. Stampfer and I believe that is what he says there.
VML - I don't think Solomon Schechter was a founder of JTS, I think he came a bit after it was founded, but what you say about his background is true. His Hebrew name was Schneur Zalman.
re: the headgear:
ReplyDeleteThe Yenukeh and his son Reb Moshe both are pictured in the spodik. Reb Avrohom Elimelech of Karlin is pictured in a Shtreimel, at least in Eretz Yisroel. Maybe it was a Vochidige Levush?
The Aruch HaShulchan wore what many Litvishe Rabbonim like HaRav Kook, the Netziv, Reb MM Epstein of Slabodke, Reb Refoel Shapiro and others wore.
Even amongst Chasidim the only one to wear fur headgear during the week is the Belzer Rov, and he toots his own horn as a rule. maybe soon we'll be zoche to have the first Rosh Yeshiva with the old spodik. The Yerushalmi Litvishe wear Shtraymlech already.
I think it's an indoor/outdoor thing, rather than a voch/Shabbes thing. Der haycher yarmulke that the yenukeh is wearing in the picture was beikar an indoor levush, especially in inclement weather. The photo looks like it was taken indoors. On the other hand, the Oruch Hashulchan photo looks like it was taken outdoors. Perhaps it was taken erev Shabbes or on Chayl HaMayed. He doesn't look vochodik in it to me.
ReplyDeleteC
ReplyDeleteoutdoor? c'mon! how do you see that? You think he stopped and posed for a picture on the street?
In Chabad it was a Shabbos/Vochen thing, and even the FR the pics when he wore it not on Shabbos were on momentous occassions like when diembarking from the boat upon ariving in America, or receiving his citizenship. The Rebbe Rashab wore the Shtraymel only in Lubavitch, and not when he traveled.
nice to hear from you, BPU.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, but maybe after the Rebbe MaHarash changed the Levush that was part of it?
Indeed Schechter did not found JTS. In fact, JTS was an Orthodox institution until it made the mistake of hiring Schechter. In a few short years he turned it into a place of kefira. The last Orthodox Rabbi produced by JTS was R Herbert Goldstein z"l, and Schechter once threatened to kick him out because he spoke about Torah min hashamayim.
ReplyDeleteIn the early 1880's, they tried establishing a seminary and a movement, but they found very little support. The Reformers weren't interested, and the new Russian immigrants weren't interested. In 1902, they invited Rabbi Solomon Schechter to become president of a newly revamped school, the Jewish Theological Seminary.
ReplyDeleteSolomon Schechter was born in Rumania in 1847 to a Chabad Chassidic family. His Chassidic upbringing did not satisfy him, however, and, in 1879 he went to study at the Berlin Hochschule fur die Wissenschaft des Judentums and at the University of Berlin. In 1882 Schechter was invited to be a tutor in rabbinics in London. He quickly rose to prominence as a rabbinic scholar and spokesman for Jewish traditionalism. In 1890 he was appointed lecturer in talmudics and in 1892 reader in rabbinics at Cambridge University. In 1899 he also became professor of Hebrew at University College, London.
He gained international fame as a scholar when he discovered and brought back to London more than 100,000 pages of rare manuscripts from the Cairo Geniza. Beyond sorting and filing the documents, Schechter wrote on the newly-found Ben Sirach materials, unknown until then.
Schechter accepted the invitation to become president of the Jewish Theological Seminary and succeeded in attracting an outstanding group of scholars to teach. The Jewish Theological Seminary became a recognized center of Jewish learning.
In 1913 Solomon Schechter was instrumental in founding the United Synagogue of America, the umbrella organization of all Conservative congregations.
Though a staunch traditionalist, Schechter admitted that there could be change in modern Judaism. However, he felt that changes should not be introduced arbitrarily or deliberately. Rather, "the norm as well as the sanction of Judaism is the practice actually in vogue. Its consecration is the consecration of general use—or, in other words, of Catholic Israel."
Although it may be apocryphal, my favorite quote from Solomon Schechter is, "Gentlemen, in order to be a success in the American rabbinate, you must be able to talk baseball."
(Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Schechter.html)
Schechter at his desk:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/Taylor-Schechter/SS.html
It is mentioned that he came from a Chabad family, and elsewhere it is written that he was educated in "Eastern European Yeshivot". (which?) However, compared to the other reformers, Socialists, and Communists, he wasn't all that bad!
Hirshel, the bio you quote makes it sound as if JTS was a Conservative institution before Schechter came. This is not so. JTS was founded as an Orthodox school, and was Orthodox until Schechter turned it around.
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of fact Chabad-Lubavitch survived better than all the other groups mentioned.
ReplyDeleteEvery group in the Czarist empire took loses to the haskolah and socialism etc.
But because of the foresight of the Rashab and the messiras nefesh of his son Lubavitch survived even though some of its top people were killed in the 1930-1945 period.
In the period of 1918-1939 the hasidim in the lithuanian section of Poland (the area of Vilna etc) played a major role in orthodox jewish life as they more than the olam remained frum.