(Vilna Choral Synagogue, Photo courtesy of Wikipedia)
Hirshel,
Maybe you can help me here. I have been grappling for quite some time trying to comprehend the cause for all the hatred towards Chassidim and Chassidus through the ages.
I have not been able to understand what caused the outrage, including excommunications, bans, public floggings, book burnings, attacks and beating, even murder, yes murder, against Chassidim. Rabbis and laymen alike were beaten, forced from their jobs and marriages, parents would sit shiva for children that defected to Chassidism, and Chassidim had to fear for their lives.
By most accounts that I have seen, it was a mistake based on incorrect information and lies that caused a majority of Gedolei Yisroel, even tzaddikim among them, to sanction any and all activities to stop the spreading of Chassidism, and that there was actually no significant difference between Chassidic and Misnagdic theology, rather, it was mostly a revolution of ruach that was so offensive!
So what possible logical reason can there have been for this behavior by Gedolei Yisroel? Since when can they take such extreme measures without hearing both sides and investigating the truth of the accusations? Does this damage anyone else's emunas chachomim as it does mine?
Anonymous Thirtysomething Emailer
The terutz iz poshut.It's like what happened in Williamsburg a few years ago when Lubavitchers tried to convert Satmar kids to Lubavitch.Frum Jews get very upset when strangers come and try to convert their children away from the derech of their family and ovos.
ReplyDeleteMisnagdim dont have to kill them anymore.
ReplyDeleteZalies kill aronies...bobov kill each other.....lubavitch is split in half.....
we are just getting started....
We are just sitting back and watching the show!
It's evident that the writer is either a Lubavitcher or someone raised on a diet of Lubavitcher propaganda that portrays Chassidim of that period as totally innocent victims of cruel, hate filled misnagdim who are agents of evil forces.It's quite ironic that he asks why gedolim allegedly took such strong stands without investigating and hearing both sides (an assertion which is lacking in accuracy) while he himself has done just that by swallowing whole Chassidic accounts of this period and not realizing that the misnagdim have different accounts of what happened.
ReplyDeleteHis facts are way off.The Chassidim came and said that the kehillos davened the wrong way,that their shechita was no good,that their theology was wrong.Some started being mivazeh talmidei chachomim and doing crazy things like somersaults during davening.They broke away from the kehillos and tried to convince others to leave as well,causing much machlokes,breaking up families and more.Even one of the Lubavitcher Rebbes said that the GRA did Chassidim a great favor by opposing them since they were in danger of going too far.Living more than two hundred years later it can be difficult to understand,just like you may have trouble understanding what happened between R Yaakov Emden and R Yonoson Eibeschitz, but there were reasons why things happened.Don't think the people then were all fools and not as smart as you.
P.S.-Thirtysomething and mis-na-gid are both over-the-top when they write of 'murder'.Please control yourselves and don't add fuel that doesn't belong when there is already enough there.
ReplyDeleteAMJ
ReplyDeleteall of what you say may be correct, although you attribute all those flaws to all Chassidim, something that didn't happen. Yet, the question remains: Was it necessary to go to that extent, to be מתיר דמם of the Chassidim?!
The WERE people killed - I'm sorry that it bothers you; it bothers me as well. The fact is that if you read about the time you will find that it was not a pretty picture. There WERE public floggings, beatings, book burnings, forced divorces, trumped up charges, people forced to run for their lives, and people who died. If you read writings from the time you will find this was the case – especially once the excommunications were issued.
ReplyDeleteOver the years I have read anything that I found about it. I know many, many, reasons that have been thrown about – but they don’t answer the question. We’re talking about people who were real gedolei Yisroel sanction horrific activity without first hand knowledge of the facts. What was it that Chassidim believed that would have legitimized the response?
Nusach Hatifiloh, Shechita, wild davening… give me a break. Chassidei Ashkenaz, especially the Gra, changed nusach and minhagim as well, but somehow the Chassidim were chayiv misa for the same thing?
My problem is that if this is “daas Torah” than how can my emunas chochomim remain intact?
Emunas Chachomim is a very hard thing – anyone who says otherwise probably hasn’t read much history.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, Chassidic leaders have done similar things to what you mention. Pre-War Europe saw bloody battles: Tzanzer vs Belzer, Gerer vs Alexander, Satmar vs Spinka… The Savraner (Talmid muvhak of the Riziner) was matir damim Breslover Chassidim – to the extant that innocent Jews were KILLED because they were mistaken for Breslovers (see R’ Nosson of Breslov’s writings in Yemei Mohornat, and “Through fire and water”).
In America you can look at the beatings, book burnings and forced divorces sanctioned by the old Skverer Rebbe (a recognized tzaddik) of people who had to do with Breslov in New Square. And obviously the Satmar-Lubavitch attacks.
But if your question is, how could so many gedolei olam do this, just remember that mistakes happen for good reasons all the time. Rabbi Akiva erroneously supported Bar Kochba, great talmidim of R’ Akiva died during sefira for not showing proper Ahavas Yisroel, many Jews died throughout Tanach and through the ages in Israel (read Josephus) for what might be considered poor reasons, many Tzaddikim told Jews to stay in Europe before the war… What do you think HKB”H wants you to do?
BTW, AMJ, I think the machlokes between R' Yaakov Emden - R' Yonason Eibishitz made complete sense.
ReplyDeleteAMJ,
ReplyDeleteHow about this. Make the case that was made to gedolei Lita at that time. See if anyone would agree that it was a good reason to be matir damim. Would you?
Azoi
ReplyDeleteA few factual errors
The Savraner "Reb Moshe Tzvi" was older and a Yedid U'Masmich of the Rizhener not a Talmid.
I think that I am bit familiar with all major hasidic historical battles but one you call "tzanz-belz" is ficticous.
Ask some Bobovers - There were Bobovers beaten, and even local authorities would take sides in these fights.
ReplyDeleteThere are some hair raising stories that i have heard from Tzanzer einiklach.
30-something,
ReplyDeleteI think that our society and culture has changed; it is always hard to compare time periods for this reason. Our attitudes about human life and suffering have softened over history - and furthermore we don't have the conviction of our beliefs as people once did. All in all it is a more tolerant world-view that is commonly shared by people today.
I think this is why you are struggling with this...
so Zezmir, what you're saying is that today nobody believes in anything anymore, and if we would we'd beating the living daylights out of each other?
ReplyDeleteThey testified before rabbinic authorities that Chassidim pervert the ways of Torah, which resulted in the suffering and persecution of great Rabbis and laymen alike. Chassidim were persecuted in every way imaginable; but with all the tribulations, Chassidism grew stronger.
ReplyDeleteIn the spring of 1772, while the Maggid was still alive, numerous community leaders convened in Vilna to determine what should be done about this Chassidic revolution. They declared Chassidic blood “permitted,” and stated that all persecution of Chassidim was commendable. Rabbi Chaim Hadarshan of Vilna and Rabbi Yisroel of Vilna – two early Chassidim residing in Vilna – were taken out and publicly flogged. A writ of excommunication was drawn up against Chassidic adherents, and it was sent throughout the Jewish world stating the obligation to keep an eye on all Chassidic activity, and forbidding anyone from befriending or doing business with them. Furthermore, it was determined to be a Mitzvah to force them to give up their evil chassidic ways.
That year the Misnagdim also printed a slanderous libel against Chassidim (printed in Aleksnitz 1772) under the name “Zmir Aritzim Vecharovos Tzurim” using harsh words slandering Chassidim. These excommunications and attacks escalated the already bitter battle between the Chassidic and Misnagdic camps. In the volume the path of chassidus was attacked sharply and the excommunications were publicized. Additionally, the author called for outright war to annihilate the Chassidic movement. The book had a tremendous impact, and Chassidus was derided – especially in Lithuania.
It is interesting to note the words written by Rabbi Yosef Steinhardt of Piorda, who admitted that he had no knowledge of Chassidim other than from this volume wrote, “[Chassidim] despise Talmud study, and they speak arrogantly about Rabbis and recognized Jewish leaders…if they would listen to these words of rebuke, they would benefit from the good of Heaven. And if they refuse, and disregard these words, they will be excommunicated amid shame and disgrace.” Not for nothing was this book of lies destroyed by Chassidim, until not a volume remained.
Subsequently, the rabbinic court in Brody, influenced by the activities in Vilna and the book, issued its own writ of excommunication on the twentieth of Nissan 1772 – which coincided with the Brody fair, when people would gather to buy and sell merchandise from all over. R’ Shmuel Shmelke, the Rabbi of Nikelsberg – and adherent of the Maggid of Mezritch – harshly criticized the Brody court for this decision based solely on the actions of the Vilna court, and without performing their own investigation into the matter.
Shortly after the excommunications were issued, and Chassidic rabbis removed from rabbinic positions – often forced to run for their lives – ten leading students of the Maggid, without gaining permission from their Rebbe, placed a counter-excommunication on all signatories of the excommunications that had been issued against them. When the Maggid heard of this, he said: “You acted foolishly, and as a result I will have to leave this world – however, from now on whenever a battle will develop between Chassidim and Misnagdim, the Chassidim will prevail.”
Within the year of the excommunication, the Maggid passed away in Anipoli (19 Kislev 1772), as had Rabbi Aharon of Karlin (18 Nissan 1772). The Misnagdim pointed to this as proof of support for their side from Heaven, and they were confident that the tide had turned and Chassidus would fade away forever.
But the words of the Maggid were fulfilled, and the Chassidim did not give up. To the contrary, Chassidim returned to their homes and continued their Chassidic practices and studies – as they had learned from the Maggid. And much to the dismay of the opposition, not long afterwards the first printed Chassidic work – the Toldos Yaakov Yosef, by Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye – was printed in 1780, and sold with such success that it had to be reprinted that same year.
The Misnagdim did not give up; rather, they doubled their efforts. Rabbinic leaders of Vilna, led by R’ Shmuel ben Avigdor, with the endorsement of the Vilna Gaon, issued yet another excommunication to be sent to all corners of the Jewish world, including the statement: “Now that their fraudulence is exposed in their newly printed books…anyone who assists or advises them in their efforts is also included under this excommunication, and will join them in their separation and removal from the people of Israel – and needless to say, it is forbidden to have any affiliation or association with them of any kind.”
Two emissaries were dispatched – R’ Dovid and R’ Yehoshua Zelig – to spread the word and encourage people everywhere to keep up the fight against the Chassidim. They were also successful in influencing the rabbinical court in Zhlova, North of Horodna, to issue an additional excommunication with the signatures of many rabbinic authorities, foremost among them were Rabbi Eliezer, chief rabbi of Horodna, and Rabbi Avraham Katznelenbogen, chief rabbi of Brisk. Among other things it was stated there: “To burn the thorns of G-d’s vineyard – to angrily chase and pursue the Chassidim; to ban them and uproot them entirely, as one must do when dealing with idol worship. Wherever they are, they should be sent a way as one who is a leper.”
Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, living then in Liozna, said about the affect of this latest ban: “They made us out to be villains and complete heretics, essentially stating that whoever reaches us first is to do away with us, and as such, is doing a service for everyone… and they did things that are unmentionable.”
As a result of these efforts by the Misnagdim throughout the land numerous towns and villages held bonfires for burning Chassidic books, i.e. the sefer Toldos Yaakov Yosef. In Brod the bonfire was lit adjacent to the home of the Chassidic Rebbe, R’ Yechiel Michel of Zlotchov. Interestingly, it is written that when the volume was brought to the famed Noda BeYehuda he threw it on the floor and placed it under his chair. Later, he met the Chassidic leader R’ Yaakov Shimon of Shepetivka who successfully debated with him and the Noda BeYehuda picked up the book and kissed it. It is also significant to point out that the famed Sefardic Gaon and Tzaddik, R’ Chaim Yosef Dovid Azulai, the Chida, who was a contemporary of R’ Yaakov Yosef, quotes the Toldos Yaakov Yosef respectfully.
But all the bans and excommunications did not succeed; Chassidus continued to spread both verbally and in print. Indeed, after the ban of 1781 R’ Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye printed an additional work, “Ben Poras Yosef” in Koretz, and a third work, “Tzafnas Paneach” was printed in Koretz in 1782. In 1783 a revised and improved edition of the “Toldos Yaakov Yosef” was reprinted, and “Maagid Devorov LeYaakov,” a collection of lessons from the Maggid of Mezritch, was also printed in Koretz in 1784.
HT,
ReplyDeletePerhaps ;-)
Why is anybody taking this 'innocent' Lubavitcher guy seriously?
ReplyDeleteThe fight between the misnagdim and chasidim pails in comparison to the vicious violent fights between the chasidim themselves.Basically, after one generation the misnagdim/chasidim fight was over.THEN it was time for the chasidim to make 'gehackteh leiber' from each other 'ad hayom'
Surprised that no other chasidic groups bring up this dreck from 200 years ago?Don't be!It's only Lubavitch who feed and focus on old,old fights and hate.Don't be fooled by their so called 'love'.They love money and power!
Btw, talking about violence:Did anybody see what happened to Rebbitzen Chana Gourary, daughter of R'Yosef Yitzchok from Lubavitch?Some 'chosid' turned her face into a punching bag.The horrible results are available on the web.She was about eighty at the time.What did Lubavitch do about this horrible act of violence againSt the Rebbes daughter?Diddly!! And they helped that Israeli bastard run away!
Vhi,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your helping to clarify the problem, but I'm sorry, I am still confused. Maybe you didnt understand my question, so I will state it a little more simply:
Does this not have a detremental effect on our emunas chachomim? It does mine...
At around 1:00am Efraim Klien (47) HY”D was driving down Schenectady Ave. when eye witnesses claim to have heard and seen 3 shots being fired at the minivan Efrayim was driving, after the shots the van swerved and turned into Carroll St. where he was weaving and was all over the road and went running into parked cars from the beginning of the block until hitting one car in the middle of the block bringing the car to a complete stop.
ReplyDeleteThe minivan then burst into flames and 2 bystanders ran to the van and got the injured victim out of the vehicle and put out the flames. At this point Hatzalah members were already showing up on scene and began performing basic life support, at which time a Hatzalah Ambulance and a FDNY Ambulance had shown up, Hatzalah transported the victim to KCH where he was pronounced dead on arrival.
On report of the passing to all the units of Hatzalah, Shomrim & Police, snow began falling and quickly a layer covered the street only to make any search harder for police in any effort in finding any clues as to what had happened tonight.
Police are still trying to figure out what happened, and where the victim was originally shot, in a brief conversation with the CO he said that Police are looking into the possibility that the victim was shot on Union St. & Schenectady Ave. but still have no idea where he was shot.
The victim who was 42 years of age leaves behind a son who he was going to marry off next week and a daughter who is currently in Israel.
Police have initiated a Level One Mobilization in which every extra hand is called in to search for suspects, or in this case to search for any evidence of a suspect. As of now there has been no progress made.
Maybe the above will help stop this foolish asinine fighting.
ReplyDeleteA yid was murdered and we fight over ancient history.
S.Z
The Chassidim were put into cheirem.Cheirem does not mean to be matir domim.Where do you get that from?People like Y.Alfasi are Chassidic and their accounts are biased and not reliable.
ReplyDeleteYou say -Nusach Hatifiloh, Shechita, wild davening… give me a break. Chassidei Ashkenaz, especially the Gra, changed nusach and minhagim as well, but somehow the Chassidim were chayiv misa for the same thing? Answer -You're comparison to the GRA is not a good comparison.The GRA had a small minyan in which he did some things a shtickel differently.He didn't go around making GRA shtiblech all over and telling everyone they had to follow his ways.Where does it say in the charomim 'chayav misa' or are you just making that up along with some other things you wrote?
The Chassidim came and basically declared war on the existing derech.They passeled up the shechita,which also was an attack on the funding of the kehilla,as well as on the ne-emonus.They declared that the davening in the derech of doros of heilige Ashkenazishe Yidden wasn't good.Rashi, Rabbeinu Tam,Rosh,Rama and all the other gedolei Ashkenaz davened the wrong nusach,huh?They sent missionaries to convert the children.And you wonder why there was opposition?What do you think would happen if something like that happened in Kfar Chabad or Crown Heights?
I think thirty something is just posing as an innocent guy who doesn't understand,but really is trying to knock the holy Jews of that time that decided they wanted to follow the way of their ovos and not convert to a new way.
Hey, Thirty something!
ReplyDeleteI though you lost the 'emunas chachomim' you had when the Rebbe implied that he was Moshiach and he promised that he (moshiach) is coming 'ot, ot',many years back.You are ok with events like the above (yechi singing to the Rebbe, while alive)which you lived through and witnessed and it does not cause you problems in emunas chachomim,BUT SHIT that happened freakin' 200 years ago, that you have no idea about the details and never saw causes you 'problemas'.Lol, you are a putz.As they say in Lubavitch 'koosh mir in toches'
IS EVERYONE STUPID HERE? I SAID EMUNAS CHACHOMIM - NOT EMUNAS LITVAKS. I AM TALKING ABOUT ALL CHACHOMIM YOU MORON.
ReplyDeleteI AM LOOSING EMUNAS CHACHOM IN ALL OF THEM. PERIOD.
DID I EVER SAY THAT I WAS A LUBAVITCHER - OR COMING FROM A LUBAVITCH PERSPECTIVE?
WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS - YOU NEVER EVEN UNDERSTOOD THE POST IN THE FIRST PLACE.
HIRSHEL TZIG, NEXT TIME I SEND YOU AN EMAIL, PLEASE DONT POST IT FOR EVERY JERK TO SAY NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE. THANKS.
Thirtysomething,
ReplyDeleteDon't say everyone! I think I, for one, did understand your post, and I also think I responded substantively.
It's funny - somehow AMJ seems to believe that Chassidim were the majority, persecuting the establishment, and the Misnagdim were just fighting to keep their persecuted derech alive...and as such, any actions against the evil chassidim was legitimate. It's hard to imagine that people have no problem with what went on, but since he denies that any harm was done, it wont hurt his emunas chachomim. Very wise.
ReplyDeleteRabosai!
ReplyDeletewe learned something new today. That if you try and educate, teach, farchap, whatever you call it, Yidden about a new derech then you're fair game to be abused and beaten. This means that the next time Frume Yidden demonstrate in Israel they may be beaten by the police, who only wish to "maintain the derech of their Avos". Also, if you try to do "Kiruv" in Russia or anywhere else, the kid's father may beat the ---- out of you for trying to "Brainwash" his kid.
Take it easy 30-something.
ReplyDeleteMost people in the tent arent too bright. Dont let fools get you all bummed out.
As a Litvishe guy I can tell you you that most Litvishe Yidden are not represented by these chevra.
Let me just say that things would have been different if not for the recent churban from the whole Shabbtai Tzvi disaster... People were rightfully afraid that this was another case of S"Z and the danger cannot be minimized.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, when conventional Judaism was seen to be at risk, the gedolim did their utmost to avoid what happened the "last time."
Emunas chachomim should not be confused with a Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
ReplyDeleteZezmir & Nosson Tzvi,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your help; I suspect that a combination of boyh your answers is the most likely.
Since we are supposed to have basic emunas chachomim, it seems to me, that since most chachomim opposed the chassidim it would been virtual heresy for someone to have said that the chachomim were all misguided and incompetent. That is the emunas chachomim that I was referring to.
thank you Leiby.
ReplyDeleteHT,
ReplyDeleteDo you think these geniuses advance the conversation much? I know you are the Anti-TA, but perhaps deleting useless comments would be a good idea.
I see I bring out the best in adversaries. What we see from these comments is that were they able to they'd do it again, they're just afraid of the retribution and bad PR.
ReplyDeletelet it be known that the point of the post sent to me by an anonymous e-mailer was to ask how the persecutions of the time were allowed by Gedolei Yisroel based on shoddy evidence at best. From there we're at "children kissing the Rebbe's picture." Why is that relevant to the question? or is there no answer?
ReplyDeleteall the above, reenforces my דרך.
ReplyDeleteeat kugel & kishka with a גשמאק, love your wife & kids with a passion, & be a good jew (doesn't matter חסיד or מתנגד, & above all stay out of stupid childish מחלוקות
More Cholent,
ReplyDeleteSo you are saying that your derech is a direct result from gedolei Torah being matir damim other Jews?
How did you draw that conclusion from the question being asked here?
Cholent,
ReplyDeleteToo bad those easrly chassidim running for their lives wouldn't have had the luxury to agree with you.
Thirtysomething
ReplyDeleteyou're using the wrong logic here. According to you tzaddikim can do wrong, right? if so then what they did then was right, right? so what's the question?
200 years of history (histeria?) brought me to this conclusion.
ReplyDeleteGordon.
ReplyDeleteThat was the my quandry:
We expect our Tzaddikim and chochomim to do a decent job. They didn't.
So, should I trust anything any of them say, do, or endorse now?
And I'm not speaking of these specific individuals - since it is pretty arbirtary to select which ones I should trust and which ones I shouldnt, I lose faith in all of them...
30 something, you are bringing me to שאלות חמורות in אמונה. i think i'm going to eat kugel with more cholent.
ReplyDeletewell even Mordechai had his 'misnagdim"
ReplyDeleteורצוי לרוב אחיו
יוסף
ReplyDeleteI would've more from you than just a few words about the whole shmuess here. You have nothing to add?
You lubavs keep on repeating this matir damim baloney,that gedoilim were matir damim.Where's the proof?A cheirem was declared,but a cheirem isn't matir damim.Where are all the lists of korbonos?You're making it sound like there were massacres chas vesholom like in rwanda.Stop inventing things.Lubavitch darf monnen emes,no?
ReplyDeleteSnag,
ReplyDeleteYou should read more.
BTW, Nobody said massacres -- but people did die, and countless people were beaten, whipped, lost their livelihoods, etc. The word "matir damim" is quoted in many accounts, and although there may not have been a death toll in the thousands the picture wasn't pretty.
Surely you know that when the Gr"a was informed of the book burning in Vilna he said, "In my opinion the authors should be the ones burned in the fire."
Yiddishkeit mont Emes my friend, I don't know where Lubavitch comes in here.
As was shown before,your Lubavitch accounts alone are not reliable.You guys are known to have peddled phony baloney stories before.You make a wild claim that gedolim were matir domim,but fail to show a shred of evidence.When there is a dispute are you allowed to listen to just one side?Is that the way to the emes?
ReplyDeleteThe Chasidim were the rodfim not the nirdofim (like the Chazon Ish Zt"l said) as they like to make themselves sound.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect if there is any good that came out of the chasidim 200 years later it is only because of the cherem of the Gaon Zt"l, he put them on the right track, if not for the cherem who knows how far off they would of been (said by the Chazon Ish, and the baal hatanyah himself)Compare it to rav Shach speaking against lubavitch thirty years ago, people didnt understand but they do so much good, ..look at it today.. who knows if not for rav shach they all would be meshichistim today he opened our perspective to put them back on the right track, and see their evil warped ways.
In reality most of the reasons of the cherem still apply today , disregard for talmidei chachomim, torah not being priority one, disregard for halacha, zemanei tefillah etc' the list goes on.
The only reason things quited down was because of the local authorities of the time, as any real historian knows.
Chasidim its never to late to do teshuvah, as... said "Yad hamisnagdim tiyeh al haelyonah"
leiby, the "dreck" is hitting the fans all over the place chassidishe הויפן as well as by the litvishe גדולים (get the pun?).
ReplyDeleteAlso, it seems that you are not very familiar with lubavitch. I would advise you to brush up on the movement with info from nuetral sources.
the only problem with the picture is that that Shul is not in Villna it is Kaunas Lithuania about an hour from Villna.
ReplyDeleteLet me clarify anonymous's comment . . .
ReplyDeleteThe shul pictured is the Ohel Ya'akov Chor shul located on der greener Barg in Kovno.
The picture above, as well as an actual picture of the Vilna shul, can be found at www.mordechai7215.blogspot.com
upon further review; the picture is from Kovno, sorry about that, besides all Litvak places are the same for us :)
ReplyDeleteYou people sound like - lehavdil - holocaust deniers asking for proof of the exterminations 200 years later, very smart.
Then you come and say that the Chassidim had it coming to them because they were "missionaries".
Then you attribute blasphemous statements to the Chazon Ish, which, if I were you I'd so not believe, just to keep his dignity. Then you embellish an already embellished story of the "heilige" Brisker Rov, which makes him foolish at best.
Then you take the Ponovizher Rosh Yeshivah, an average Talmid Chochom by yesteryear's standards and make some kind of soothsayer and fortuneteller.
Anybody else want to make a fool of his G'Deylim?
Oh, I almost forgot; Is it any wonder that in Lubavitch they would have no respect for the Chazon Ish if those statements are true?
ReplyDeleteIs it not clear that other Chassidim suffer terribly of inferiority complexes?
Anonymous well said,
ReplyDeleteBy the way the chazon ish and other real gedolei yisroel said that the cherem today is mainly applicabale on two sects
CHABAD
and
BRESLOV
I find it fascinating that a movement as "irrelevant" and "crazy" as Lubavitch should generate such interest and hate.....
ReplyDeleteI didn't want to jump in here, but since nobody else said it, I guess I will...
ReplyDeleteThirtysomething,
This is the way I understand it: The Gedolei Hamisnagdim were great men, and I think your Emunas Chachomim can remain intact (at least as far as this case is concerned). The Debate between the Chassidim and Misnagdim was, as you pointed out, not really about a difference in theology, or halachic matters; rather, it was over a far more significant problem. Many Talmidei Hamaggid even state similarly, that the Misnagdim were not bad in any way – they were just not using the right tact, or the best approach, for the generation.
Perhaps we can use America in the 60's as an example: All the conventions and values of 1950's America were overturned and questioned by the 60's generation. Similarly, Chassidim turned main-stream Judaism on its head. At that point the culture of main-stream yiddishkeit, endorsed by the establishment, believed in Judaism that was the precise opposite of the Chassidic version, such as:
The establishment stressed somberness, the Chassidim stressed joy.
The establishment valued Torah knowledge and prowess, the Chassdidim valued perfection of the self and simplicity.
The establishment centered around the most scholarly, Chassidim centered around the most saintly.
The establishment valued study over prayer, Chassidim valued prayer over study.
The establishment recognized the mystical, but only for the elite, Chassidim promoted the mystical for the common man (this, of course, not long after the proliferation of the mystical during the Shabbtai Tzvi disaster).
(There are more, but these are the easy one that I come up with at the moment)
The Misnagdim represented the old-guard, and as all old-guards do, they were opposed to radical change. Had the Chassidim been peddling a difference of halacha or theology it was have been a much simpler problem – however the Chassidim were actively attempting to change all the prevalent values, culture, structure and emphasis of Judaism. It should be easy to see why that was considered intolerable by the establishment, for their beliefs and values were being rejected and attacked. The entire future of Judaism was at risk in their view. I think it is very understandable that the response required was the most extreme possible – and I think this was understood by the early Chassidim.
I also think this was why the Vilna Gaon refused to meet Chassidim, and should explain how falsehoods were accepted by Rabbonim, Batei-Denim, etc. It wasn’t about the specific charges, be they true or false, it was about maintaining conventional Judaism! These Chassidim were a shock to the system, and changing the traditions in a religion that lives by tradition – therefore, even though they could make a convincing case and win many a debate, it was unacceptable. The Gaon didn’t care what R’ Mendel Vitebsker and the Baal HaTanya would say; I’m sure that he knew that they were very knowledgeable and convincing, it’s just that in his opinion it was irrelevant. He believed that Yiddishkeit should remain as the mesora had been, and any revolution to the definition of the main-stream was – in his eyes – inherently unacceptable in the extreme.
I hope that I did a decent job of articulating what I’m trying to say here. I won’t get into any debates here with anyone about the merits of Chassidus, and I don’t intend to comment more on the matter. I just wanted to explain why I think Gedolei Torah can be respected, even though they supported what may be considered to be shocking activities.
Judaism will attack any new approach and only then will it be accepted (or rejected)witness the rambam's books being burned etc. by gdolim Rabbeinu Yonah! This is the only way for yiddishkeit to survive. it has to be ripped apart from all sides it's negative qualities, exxagerated , responded to, defended and ultimatly vindicated. if it is something which is not kosher it will end up on the outside. if it is kosher it will be accepted. the birth of chasidism a new derech was the same way it has to pass through the fire this is our history..a document (or marriage)which was questioned and then resolved favorbly is accepted for all future generations..
ReplyDeleteHirshel is the typical new convert,he is more Chassidish than Chassidim from birth.Hirshel,where are the lists of all the alleged Chassidim who lost their lives?You and your colleagues are making an alilas dam on misnagdim when you spread baloney like that!Ah-but you Lubavs say you love all Yidden.I guess making such an alilas dam on snags is part of that "love",huh? You know there is a bridge in Brooklyn, great location-you wanna buy it maybe?
ReplyDeletesnag
ReplyDeleteAlilas Dam? I think not.
well, that's what you get for going AWOL on me.
ReplyDeleteWhile on the subject of quotes from Rabbonim, why not use this one;
ReplyDeleteRoyv Ruboy of the Rabbonim in Lita from the beginning of the 20th century and on were Nitfas L'Haskoloh.....
(Reb Chaim Solovejcik of Brisk)
BP
ReplyDeletehaven't you heard? RCV wanted to sign the darn thing, he really did, he just couldn't catch a wagon to Vilna, that's all. Otherwise he would've signed it twice!
R' Nuchom Grennwald of lakewood wrote a beautiful peice re: R' CV's influence by ספר התניא. He shows how gantze shtiklech of tanya were written in his ספר in slightly different words. Hirshel, would you remember where this is to be found?
ReplyDeletein Heichel HaBesh"t. Which volumes? I don't remember off hand.
ReplyDeleteFools
ReplyDeleteReb Chaim Volozhiner did not sign on the Cherem because only the parnossim and rabonim of the big cities did, like kovno brisk shklov vilna, volozhin was a little town even then it only got on the map many years later when the yeshiva opened up there, plus no talmid would sign if his rebbi signed , namely the Gaon ZT"l, plus he was a youngster in his twenies at the time of the chromim.
It is pretty obvious from this web blog the main reason there was a cherem, the disrespect for Talmidei Chachomim,
this reason is still applicabale today as apparent by your posts, who needs your emunas chachomim, you lowlife mevazeh talmidei chachomim
anon, please respond the other issue re: r' CV being influenced by ספר התניא?
ReplyDeleteAnon always remember דברי חכמים בנחת נשמעים otherwise you just sound like an enraged fool (bull)
By the way "reb chaim volozhiner was influenced by the tanya"?
ReplyDeleteYou dont know how to read the sefer, that is exactly the purpose of printing nefesh hachaim to refute all that was written in the tanya, mainly shaar daled on the importance of torah lishmo, the obligation to learn all of the torah, rather than saying tehillim, tzimzum, not the kefirah way of understanding tzimzum as printed in the tanyay, and many other references refuting the chasidim, zemanei tefillah, mevatel drabonons etc'
anon, why the כעס?
ReplyDeleteanon, who decides who is a real גדול?
ReplyDeleteA perfect example of your kefirah way of thinking you dont like something the chazon ish said , you lose repect for the chazon ish, how about contemplating why he said it do some honest soulsearching and leave your blasphemous ways of mevazeh real gedolim
ReplyDeleteanon, who decides who is a real גדול?
ReplyDeletebtw my dear anon, you were m'vazeh the holy בעל התניא, what gives?
ReplyDeletewhy is not respecting the CI Kefirah? It's not like you're shaming him.
ReplyDeleteWe all mellow with age. When I was younger, I was much more of a kannoi - I even used a razor blade to remove chazon *ish's name from the spine of my copy of shev shmaito (some stuff of his was printed in the back of the seifer). But as I got older, I mellowed. Today I would simply "not see" his name and would definitely not bother with the blade.
ReplyDelete[Btw, was what I did some kind of "imach shemei" maasis?] ;)
Berl,
ReplyDeleteLOL
Berl
ReplyDeleteyou just fell for the Satmare shtick. That's what they do to all Kehis seforim that mention the Rebbe's name.
CE,
ReplyDeleteNice to see you have a sense of humour,I totally missed Berls' 'joke'
Lurker:
ReplyDeleteRead the last line of Berl's post, if you understand Hebrew you'll get the joke.
Why is there a picture of the Kovno shul here? Can't you find a different - Vilna related - photo to switch it with?
ReplyDeletewhat's wrong with Kovno? not Litvish enough for you?
ReplyDeleteI'll see if I can find one from Vilna.
there you go.
ReplyDeleteThanks! Much better.
ReplyDeleteHT
ReplyDeleteisn't that the shul that threw SB Krinsky to the dogs after more than a decade of service?
YOU CHOSE THAT!!!
avremel
ReplyDeleteI guess you can't please everybody...
How am I supposed to know?
What's going on there now?
Just put up a welcome to Vilna sign... or a map of the esteemed city perhaps?
ReplyDeleteHow about:
ReplyDelete"Welcome to Vilna, No Chassidim allowed"?
Krinsky,that chutzpanik,like a typical lubavitcher,tried to make the Shul a Lubavitch place,throwing out nusach Ashkenaz the local minhag,for nusach Lubavitch.Midah kinegged midah he got thrown out himself.
ReplyDeleteYesh din viyeish dayan !
another hater who has no knowledge of the subject at hand other than the Yated fiction reports, shoots his mouth off. Not only that, he'd rather side with Mechalelei Shabbos and Machilei Neveilos, than ch"v to give a Lubavitcher the benefit of the doubt.
ReplyDeleteIt's a fact that Lubavitchers try to push their nusach on other Jews.Just go out and see. Lubavitchers don't automatically get the benefit of the doubt these days,because people have gotten wise to their devious tactics.After being fooled a few times people get smart.
ReplyDelete"push their nusach" aye? nebach.
ReplyDeleteTo Herr Rabbiner AMJ,
ReplyDeleteHow many Misnagdim did the Chassidim kill? How many Misnagdishe-owned business's did the Chassidim burn down? How many Misnagdim were expelled from Chassidic strongholds? How many Chassidim harassed the leaders of the Misnagdim?
" snag said...
ReplyDeleteYou lubavs keep on repeating this matir damim baloney,that gedoilim were matir damim.Where's the proof?A cheirem was declared,but a cheirem isn't matir damim.Where are all the lists of korbonos?You're making it sound like there were massacres chas vesholom like in rwanda.Stop inventing things.Lubavitch darf monnen emes,no?"
R' Snag, was the Inquisition also invented by some imaginative Jews ? Perhaps the Vilna Gaon himself was invented...hmmmm.
" Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe Chasidim were the rodfim not the nirdofim (like the Chazon Ish Zt"l said) as they like to make themselves sound.
With all due respect if there is any good that came out of the chasidim 200 years later it is only because of the cherem of the Gaon Zt"l, he put them on the right track, if not for the cherem who knows how far off they would of been (said by the Chazon Ish, and the baal hatanyah himself)Compare it to rav Shach speaking against lubavitch thirty years ago, people didnt understand but they do so much good, ..look at it today.. who knows if not for rav shach they all would be meshichistim today he opened our perspective to put them back on the right track, and see their evil warped ways.
In reality most of the reasons of the cherem still apply today , disregard for talmidei chachomim, torah not being priority one, disregard for halacha, zemanei tefillah etc' the list goes on."
I am rapidly losing my respect for the Chazon Ish, due to the above comments. Well, can't blame him. He grew up being fed the same propaganda that you are choking on now.
The story about the Alter Rebbe saying that Chassidim owed it to the Vilna Gaon is a Bubbe Mayseh made up by some Mizrachi, Fishman, who was known to be a big Misnaged, and thus cannot be given any credibilty.
The Chassidim don't disregard Talmidei Chachomim, but despise those that turn "Kavod HaTorah" into plain "Kavod", which, in your words is something that "still apply's today".
Torah IS a main priority, and as mentioned elsewhere on this blog, some of the greatest minds from the Torah world in the past 200 yrs were Lubavitcher Chassidim, in which cases they were either ignored (R' Zalman Fradkin of Lublin, R' Avrohom Elya Plotkin, "The Rosh" Shlita, etc.) or their Chassidisim is denyed (The Rogatchover, Rabbi Landau A"H, Rabbi Zevin A"H etc).
I dont know where you got the "disregard for halacha" idea, or the one about z'manei tefillah. Sweet dreams, R' Snag.