Listen folks, you're not the ones that I need to "fight". You never were. We are two groups cut from the same cloth that took a slightly different approach to Torah life; otherwise we're all the same. It's the Modern-Orthodox, those blaspheming "rationalists" who never met a heretic they didn't like, they're the true targets and they need to be stopped.
As a young man in Yeshivishe camps I would the hear the Rosh Yeshiva there (who shall remain nameless) sit at the weekly Melave Malke and berate the Modern Orthodox as the "bridge to reform" and "ערגער ווי די רעפארמער" and I would wonder: "Why's he saying that? Just because they don't wear black hats?"
But what I've seen lately is that most of the hate towards anything traditional and Torah-based, and especially towards Lubavitch and the Rebbe, comes from them (in a cordial manner of course) and it's more self-righteous than the biggest "Snag".
The MO pushes for Torah Umadah, an outdated idea that has been a total failure in the US and abroad for one simple reason: It wasn't meant for this time! So, all the Harry Maryleses of the world, stop beating the drum of Reb SR Hirsch - he's not your guide, he'd be a regular black-hatter today!
At least the Snag can point to some kind of accomplishment, that he's raised a generation of Torah and Yiddishkeit, but what can the MO point to? Gay clubs at YU? The Rabbinate at Solomon Shechter? Slifkin fans? Yuk. Those bashes and swipes at the Agudah I took were silly and foolish, I realize that now. We need to let bygones be bygones and work together to build a strong, Torah-educated generation, otherwise we'll look like Harry Maryles... old, bitter guys who moan about the old days at Skokie Yeshivah.
Do we have a deal? Oh, and please don't hold my Hungarian heritage against me.
If you are a Hungarian wouldn't it make more sense to be Satmar instead of Lubavitch?
ReplyDeleteI don't know...this is just what my senior advisors tell me.
OH OH... Um, Hirshel, let me just point out that we Lubavitchers have far more in common with the MO kofer than the Snag kofer.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, we tend to be more pro-rationalist - I mean we are the guys at the colleges, we do Ramabam Yomi (rationalist), we have shluchim wearing polo shirts and nit kippot... Now you want us to find common ground with the yeshivishe?
say it aint so!
sorry Monsey, I'm not with you.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the frei-outs in Monsey have more in common, but the connection with the Yeshivishe is there for hundreds of years. They also thirst for Chassidus, if the mind is wired for it of course. Just ask Nochum Greenwald in Lakewood/
Mr. President, sir.
ReplyDeleteThe connection to Satmar may be gastroentorological(!) but not much else.
H!
ReplyDeleteNow you're pandering to the Snags?! A new low... A new low..
Zezmir
ReplyDeleteit's about time you realized who the real adversary is. I tell you from experience that a Litvisher who keeps somewhat of an open mind can be drawn to the light of Chassidus/Rebbe.
I'll decide where the new low is. If you don't mind.
I am not sure about all of MO, but there are certainly elements in MO who really are not frum and are threatened by both chassidish and yeshivish because these MO know they are not doing the right thing and those who are remind them of their shortcomings. This group is socially "MO" and goes through the motions, but they might as well call themselves Conservative and stop lying to themselves.
ReplyDeleteAnd they are beset by just as much business fraud (especially stock market and legal/professional malfeasance) as Williamsburgh is supposedly known for.
Itzik
ReplyDeleteThey supposedly are all upright, loyal citizens, no?
They are dishonest bein adam lamakom and dishonest bein adam lechaveiroi.
ReplyDeleteLately, their rabbis, including one tzaddik who found a heter for copying music cassettes, are busy attacking Chabad. In fact, Davey Berger comes from this crowd (his father in law was nearly disbarred for his role in a securities scandal).
(Just to make it clear I do not mean all MO. Some of the old MO are moving toward more and more Torah observance and learning and are closer to yeshivish than to this crowd or even to the old MO. I mean a certain group that is very light on Torah and very status conscious - the glatt kosher discotheque crowd.)
MO covers a very wide spectrum of observance and belief.
ReplyDeleteDr. Berger is an erlicher yid, a yerei shomayim, a big talmid chacham and a man of integrity.
And I by no means consider myself MO, I am Agudist and chareidi-leaning.
I know Harry Maryles. He is zahir bikala kivachamura, both bein adam lamakom and bein adam lachaveiro. For example, he would never write such lashon hara about someone he doesn't know as you do. His greatest pride is his son, who says chaburos in the Mirrer Yeshiva in Yerushalayim. What makes him Modern Orthodox is his belief that secular knowledge has positives for its own sake, not just for parnasah.
ReplyDeleteI think you owe him an apology. Not for his sake; being attacked by you will have no effect on him, because hakol lefi hamevayesh. But for the sake of your neshama, you should apologize before next Yom Kippur.
proud litvak: For example, he would never write such lashon hara about someone he doesn't know as you do.
ReplyDeleteOh, yeah? He said he would make a seudah the day that the Jews were expelled from the Gaza strip. I don't know whether he actually did so, but just expressing the sentiment is the opposite of your characterisation. He's just like Josephus and Agripas, who partied with Titus while the BHMK was burning.
bpunbound: and you say hello to dad next time you see him.
If you follow toby katz's profile you will see that she is in fact Toby Katz of Cross Currents. I think you owe her father (R Nachman Bulman AH) an apology for mistaking him for Berger.
So the only reason Hirshel and his chevra want to make 'peace' is because some Lutvaks 'can be drawn to chassidus'.
ReplyDeleteI'm irked by these sentiments.Let me explain why:A yid, especially a Torah studying and observing one is worth making peace with in his own right,right??
Why do Lutvaks 'have' to learn chassidus or become chassidim? There are different paths for ehrilicheh Jews.Chassidus mevueres in good in its own right, I'm sure that many Lubavitchers need it to understand chassidus better and it allows others with less knowledge to understand, but again that is no reason to love your fellow Jew'.You are not supposed to need a reason to be mekayem veohavto lreocho comoicho
Hirshel Tzig-we can see through your ruses. You want to make common cause with the snags now against MO. If you would succeed, your next target would be the snags themselves, those stubborn Jews who stick to old-fashioned Yiddishkeit and don't join your new Hassidic sect. Like Christian missionaries, you want to make nice to people to soften them up so you could try to convert them to your sect.
ReplyDeleteItzik you liar. Where did you pick up the dirt you are throwing today ? Dr. Berger's shver was a milamed. Since when do milamdim get disbarred? Wash your mouth out. (of course even if something of that nature was true, what bearing would that have on Dr. Berger, who is a great man, a tzaddik and a yoshor. But some Lubavitchers are so panicked when someone points out the problems with their false messianism that they are be ready to hurl lies at him, abi to confuse people and cover up their shameful positions).
Your cheap shot at Harry Maryles is not worth relating to.
ReplyDeleteIts only value is its providing a great opportunity to say a few nice things about one of the most perceptive and courageous bloggers around. He indeed he doesn't run from controversy, and his postings are often critical of the failings of those who for some reason feel that they have a copyright on Yiddishkeit. This of course may tend to make him anathema who those who cannot bear some tochacha. In fact, his postings are incisive and well thought out, and IMHO usually right on the mark. In the OJ blog world, where mediocrity is a cut above average, it's really nice to have someone turning out top-quality material.
I'm sorry I missed all this stimulating conversation while it was happening, I was poshut in the middle of finishing up Meseches Kesubos for the Siyum on 19 Kislev.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight: I'm speaking Loshon Horah against Harry, I'm taking "cheap shots", and I'm speaking about people I don't know anything about, correct?
Do you people ever read his blog at all? did all those who commented here check it out first? Is that the fact that he's an "equal-opportunity" basher make it justified? Have you seen what he's a platform for, what kind of פירוד בלבבות, Sinas Chinom, and ביזוי צדיקים ותלמידי חכמים?
Read this post, all you "snags" out there, make sure you read till the end, and then come back and tell me he's OK?
Berger is a little fellow in every sense of the word who attacks that which is bigger than he is for the sake of publicity. He made an absolute ass of himself at Bar-Ilan by singing Yechi and nearly discredited himself once and for all.
ReplyDeleteTo the best of my knowledge, Berger's shver is a corrupt shyster attorney whose initials are SK and who was almost disbarred for his role in the Jesselson scandal. If this is incorrect, I apologize, but I maintain that SK (and his ilk) and Berger illustrate the problems of the leftover MO that Harry Maryles glorifies.
I could care less if everyone learns Chassidus. And if Berger had kept his attacks aimed at the whackos and left the silent majority alone, he'd have done Chabad a favor. Instead, (physically and mentally) scrawny little David Berger encouraged the whackos who thrive on attacks.
But I do not want to see a return to the low standards of Maryles' youth. That kind of Orthodoxy was a gateway to Conservative and to assimilation. Real MO is moving toward a higher degree of observance and toward the yeshiva world. They are "veltish" and not against anyone. Throwbacks like Maryles and Berger see the success of Chabad and the rightward move as a confirmation of their own failures, so they attack.
It looks like you all never read read the gread book of Rabbi Chaim Rapaport that refutes the berger book, berger's hashkofas in other aspects are very non haredic, as all modern professor he belives that the all meesianic belief was in original judasim answer to christ. Its amazing how a YU talmud especial from the earlier genaration can have the chutzpa to stand up and be a preacher to Chabad.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me people, but why is trying to get other Yidden to learn Chassidus different than a young man recruiting Bochurim for his recently-opened Yeshivah?
ReplyDeleteIs it so much different than Reb Yisroel Salanter "prosletyzing" to the Yeshivos that they all need to learn Mussar, a totally new concept?
As far as snag2 above mentioning Snags being the true Jews: Excuse me, but since when is Yiddishkeit only fot the Talmidei Chachomim, and if you're an ignoramus you don't count? (as was the custom in Di Liteh)
To all those who claim "Rabbi" Harry Maryles' to be a "courageous, objective" observer:
ReplyDeleteI would ask you to take at an attack thread that he started about a Shliach in Florida. Harry knows nothing about the story, the man, nor the woman who claims she was fooled. He also knows that it's quite common practice to ask for more than the actual cost of the object being donated, with the rest going to cover other Shul expenses. Yet he becomes judge, prosecutor and jury and convicts this man and the entire Lubavitch of the worst crimes! And all in the name of what?!
That case is ridiculous.
ReplyDeletePlenty of shuls and schools across the spectrum are known to charge 1000 plus dollars for mezuzah dedications. Everyone knows a mezuzah does not cost 1000 plus dollars (unless Harry Maryles writes it with a Montblanc pen that he borrowed from David Berger).
Of course there is nothing wrong and much right about getting people to learn Chassidus, but for me it is enough to get the real misnagdim of this world to stop fighting and to realize that our common cause is to raise the level of observance across all communities.
Izik,
ReplyDeleteYou don't know Berger from anywhere.You are a narrow minded Lubab apologist preaching to your fellow narrow minded Lubab choir of apologists.
Most Orthodox Jews Black Hat or MO agree with the gist of his book, he has discredited himself in nobodies eyes besides Lubab inc, which is a money making missionary business, 'selling' their services to various mafiosos and Russian oligarchs (some married to shicksas)so they will look 'good' when they 'donate' some $$$.
Funny that in the Sun Sentinel where the article about the Lubab who 'sold' the honour of donating the ark for 18k the only 'defenders' were fellow Lubab, all others saw it as the hutzpah it is (look at the talkbacks on the article there)I'M not surprised that Izik thinks the case is 'ridiculous', just typical Lubab apologetics.Wonder what would happen if someone did it to Hirshel Tzig or his fellow sidekick Izik, I'm sure they would 'understand'.NOT!
I'm pretty sure that Tzig will not allow this post to remain, either
"Itzik_s said...
ReplyDelete....... He made an absolute ass of himself at Bar-Ilan by singing Yechi and nearly discredited himself once and for all.
To the best of my knowledge, Berger's shver is a corrupt shyster attorney whose initials are SK and who was almost disbarred for his role in the Jesselson scandal. If this is incorrect, I apologize......"
Itzik - funny how you say that Dr. Berger made an _ _ _ (who gave you a heter to use such loshon she'eino nekiya ?) of himself by singing yechi to illustrate his presentation at a conference on Lubavitch. What do you say when your fellow Lubavitchers chant yechi ? That is fine with you ?
You don't know about Dr. Berger's shver, he was not an attorney, go and apologize now, not here, but to those you besmirched. Be a man and ask mechila.
"As far as snag2 above mentioning Snags being the true Jews: Excuse me, but since when is Yiddishkeit only fot the Talmidei Chachomim, and if you're an ignoramus you don't count? (as was the custom in Di Liteh)"
What do you know about minhag Liteh ? Do you believe every Chassidishe bobbeh mayseh ?
The story in Florida is obviously ridiculous, and anyone who claims not to see that, just on the facts reported in the newspaper article, is either dishonest or a fool. I'll bet whoever's name is on the aron kodesh in Maryles's shul paid a lot more than the cost of the materials and labour, and I'll bet his shul's rabbi makes much more than enough to serve chicken breasts to congregants he invites for shabbos meals, and to buy tickets to Israel for his wife and kids. Where do you suppose that money comes from?
ReplyDeleteA shliach is entitled to live like a mench, and if a donation enables him to pay himself something a tiny bit closer to a decent salary (or, if you like, to pay a little of the back salary he's owed), only a hate-filled rasha like Maryles would take it into his head to object.
If Maryles is anyone's idea of an erliche yid, then I hope I never have the misfortune to meet an erliche yid in my life. You can take your "erliche yidden", and the so-called "yiddishkeit" of which they are paragons, and go jump in the lake, because they're not worth two cents. Your religion apparently consists of insisting that the moshiach which you don't believe in anyway mustn't be a niftar, just like those Jews whose entire yiddishkeit consists of ostentatiously not celebrating Christmas.
the fact that people would get provoked by someone intending to be provocative is actually pretty humorous.
ReplyDeletethe fact that a person trying to be provocative and getting ignored would just assume everyone agreed with him is actually pretty demoralizing.
i feel like the computer in the movie 'war games' learning that tic tac toe is a game that cannot be won. but worse, 'the only way to win is not to play' doesn't even apply here. instead, in this game, everybody loses.
Snag2:
ReplyDeleteass = חמור, donkey, as in Balaam's ass, it's not a reference to a body part.
You MUST know that one of the Taynes against the Baal Shem Tov was that he's Mekarev Anoshim PeShutim, right? I guess by default that means that other were not, not just in De Liteh. It's just that De Liteh they were very proud of this Un-Teyreh like tradition and were steadfast about maintaining it. So who changed here?
BPU
ReplyDeletethen maybe it's time we rethink our views. After all, do we have anything in common with someone who thinks that way of us?
if Maryles is a Medakdak Kala Kavachamura, how can he be mefarsam a loshon hora on a jew he never heard about and never saw, just based on s sensational loving journalist, 1) it is loshon hora 2)it's against halacha to listen to one side without the otherside being there.I guess his bloodlust for a chabad chosid is the heter for everything.While claiming chilul hashem bothers him.
ReplyDeleteI get it. Loshon Horoh against Chabad is in a grey area, Not Muttar, but definitely not Ossur, so that doesn't need to be refrained from.
ReplyDelete