Yaakov Salomon wants no public Menorahs, and he's got a cockamanie reason for it too. "The whole idea of a public menorah is "counter-intuitive", he says, because Chanukah's about "strengthening ourselves from within." What in the world is that supposed to mean? He asks: 'Do we REALLY need a Menorah at an airport, or at the White House, or in public places? "Is this what Chanukah is all about?" "Let's not try and compare ourselves to other religions." (As if somebody in Lubavitch decided to Ch"V equate Chanukah to other winter holidays.) It's not very often that you hear so much -------- in so little time.
So this genius, whose qualifications include being a PSYCHOTHERAPIST/SOCIAL WORKER for heaven's sake, sees no need for it. Fine. But only a total idiot, and belive me he's an idiot if he's in the Kiruv business and fails to see the value of public Menorah lightings, could totally ignore the point of what great Pirsumei Nissa these things are. So blinded is this man, and the organization that he works for, by hatred towards Chabad, that he feels the need to show the virtual world what a genius he is. And of course, all in the name of "authentic" Judaism.
Now he's getting all defensive in his message dated Yesterday, and uses the "some of my best friends are Chabad" excuse. QUOTE: "accusations that I am anti-Chabad are reckless, misguided, and patently false. I am permitted to dissent with the public menorah policy while, at that same time, appreciate, commend and support their incredible efforts throughout the world on behalf of the Jewish people. I have many friends who live and breathe Chabad philosophy and know many who have benefited from their dedicated Outreach efforts." I guess he couldn't take the heat after all. See my problem with getting my Hashkofoh from Artscroll? Salomon is an Artscroll author, and as much as I like some of their work, much of it is slanted very heavily towards a certain stream. Which is fine, since they ARE a private, money-making venture, with few other motives than to make money.
Have you ever heard someone say,
ReplyDelete"I'm not an Anti-Semite, some of my best friends are Jews . . "
Yeah. But they keep on using it anyway....
ReplyDelete"Chanukah's about "strengthening ourselves from within." "
ReplyDeleteWhat's this guy smoking (and where do I get some)!?
No, it's about taking up arms and guerilla warfare tactics and causing intentional harm to people via acts we would label as "terrorism" today. All this done in the name of saving Judaism for Jews rather than assimilating into the prevailing popular culture.
The good doctor reminds me of the credulousness that latter-day apologists give to Slamo-Splodey-Dopes when waxing on about how Jihad is really a peaceful struggle within onesself and the like.
الله اكبر good doctor!
OH MAN!
ReplyDeleteWhy attack the guy? If you have something to defend your position, do it - don't beat up the guy if he has a different opinion than you!
He did't attack Chabad - to call him a Lubavitch hater is completely irresposible! Does he have to agree with everything you do?
There's nothing to defend here. He's the one that's against it just because! and the reason he gives proves it. What kind of reason is that, "to strengthen ourselves from within?" It's very simple, we light public Menorahs to publicize the Neiss, and to remind people about Chanukah. Remember he could've just disagreed with the Seattle shliach, but noooo! he had to condemn the whole idea of public Menorahs. Why? it's very simple, he works for Noach Weinberg.
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, in lobbying to get public menorahs Lubavitch had to argue that just like an Xmas tree is a non-religious icon, and it's merely a holiday symbol, so too, a menorah is merely a secularized holiday symbol.
ReplyDeleteIn so doing they have given a hechsher to trees and stated on the record that a menorah has no pirsumei-nissa qualities…
Aish man: (bulb in head, idea for Jewish super-hero!)
ReplyDeleteYou don't remember correctly.
How DARE anyone attack public Menorah displays!! Anyone who does is patently anti-Chabad!!
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I agree that Artscroll is slanted towards a stream OTHER than Chabad. It is time for them to recognize and promote Chabad works!! Regardless of their "private" ownership!
and by the way, I believe we should SUE any municipality that refuses to put a Menorah near the Christmas tree! And cut the karp about "chillul Hashem."
ReplyDeleteRight on, menachem!
ReplyDeletepipe bombs and tear gas in Ponoviezh, calling the cops to Satmar shul on Simchas Torah, now that's a Kiddush Hashem! Public Menorahs are for lubabs! go Yaakov Salomon, you are my new hero.
A blessing on R. Salomon's head. We are living in golus, it's not yemois hamoshiach yet, even if some Lubavitchers think it is. We are in golus, and we are supposed to act accordingly.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, Snag. We ARE in Golus. I'm gonna hire me a bulldozer and raze half of those monstrosities in Flatbush, including the 20 Million dollar Yeshivah buildings. We're in Golus, Moshiach's not here yet.
ReplyDelete"We are in golus, and we are supposed to act accordingly."
ReplyDeleteSo, we're just supposed to cower in the corner and submit to the tender mercy of the Areilim? Of course, some will say that G-d will protect us but isn't that fatalistic approach a bit misguided in an era of "Congress shall make now laws...respecting the establishment of religion nor inhibiting the free exercise thereof"? G-d has placed the weapons in our hands today; albeit they are the tools of "soft power". Nevertheless, the era of "passion plays" and striking the Jew in public as part of Winter Solstice celebrations are long gone. Today, we have the freedom, and the Rebbe ZY"A called it an obligation, to spread the countervailing message victory in serving G-d the way He wants. In every way.
The Chabad Movement is filled with new Ideas implemented by the Rebbe. The public lighting of the menorah is just another one of these ideas that are not accepted by classic yiddishkist and nor should it be. Chabad has to defend their practice not the other way around. Pirsumai nisa does not exist outside the geder of the mitzvah or I could put up a flag with chanuka menorah and say I am fulfilling a mizvah.
ReplyDeleteTry to respond intelligently.
What a load...
ReplyDeleteThis is one guys opinion. Would anyone NOT have a problem with Christians asking for Christmas Trees to go up in Kfar Chabad... putting up Menorahs is a nice idea but it's not the be all and end all. Also I note how most of the posts just go off on a tangent about the Rebbe and Golus and Moshiach...now I see why the majority of the Jewish community view chabd as a cult... sounds like David Koresh at WACO...NOBODY IS RIGHT BUT ME...
"Pirsumai nisa does not exist outside the geder of the mitzvah or I could put up a flag with chanuka menorah and say I am fulfilling a mizvah."
ReplyDeleteYou have no idea what you are talking about and are just parroting talking points from other Amei HaAretz. See the Gemara Shabbos (and the Mishnah Berurah as well, BTW) on what composes Pirsumei Nisa. Under what conditions are you not "yotzei"? If the neiros are over 20 amos above the ground. That's it!
This oft repeated meme of "The Chabad Movement is filled with new Ideas implemented by the Rebbe...not accepted by classic yiddishkist" only reflects the venal ignorance of the person who repeats it.
I just read in the Seatle times that Chabad Seatle were looking to sue the ports authority if they didn't put up the Chanukiah. Since when is Kiruv done through bullying. Where in the torah and or the Rebbe' writings does it state that there MUST be a Chanukia at Seatle airport...this is a chilul hashem and all yidden are paying the price
ReplyDeleteAnyone who lights one of these menorahs in airports/public squares is making a brocho levatolo. Not speculation, merely halocho.
ReplyDeleteAnd anyway, Chanuka is the perfect time to wage a war of Kano'us againt heretical sects like Chabad, the whole Nes of Chanuka was the victory over the 'Jewish' apikorsim of the day.
what gemorah in shabbos and mishna berurah are you talking about? I would like to be educated.
ReplyDeletekovets haoros ubiurim
ReplyDeleteנר חנוכה בביהכנ"ס
הרב יוסף אברהם הלוי העלער
ראש כולל מנחם שע"י מזכירות כ"ק אדמו"ר
ומדליקין ומברכין בביהכ"נ משום פרסומי ניסא (תרע"א ס"ז)
הנה בב"י הובא כמה טעמים בזה: א) משום זכר למקדש תיקנו להדליק בביה"כ; ב) מפני האורחים שאין להם בית ואכלו ושתו... בבי כנישתא; ג) כיון שאין אנו יכולים לקיים המצוה כתיקונה (דאין מדליקין מבחוץ משום שיד עכו"ם תקיפה) מדליקים בביהכ"נ דאיכא פרסום יותר; ד) והוא מכל מקום להוציא מי שאינו בקי ואינו זריז בזאת.
הנה לפי הנך טעמא דכל עיקר ההדלקה בביה"כ הוא משום דאיכא פרסום יותר, ולהוציא האינו בקי ואינו זריז, הרי אין עיקר ההדלקה שייך בביה"כ דוקא ורק ששם נמצאים הרבים. בדרך כלל, אולם כל עיקר ההדלקה אינה שייכת לביה"כ יותר מבשאר מקום ציבור, דהעיקר הוא הפרסום ברבים, ולהוציא האינו בקי והאינו זריז בזאת ההדלקה שם הוא כמו בבה"כ. ותקנת כ"ק אדמו"ר הן הן דברי הכלבו.
אולם להטעם שתיקנו להדליק בביה"כ משום זכר למקדש, מובן דרק בביה"כ תיקנו לה משום זכר שהי' במקדש, אך בסתם מקום רבים אין ענין להדליק כלל, דמה זכר למקדש שייך.
וז"ל הריטב"א בשבת כ"ג ע"א: "ונהגו להדליק בבתי כנסיות כדי לעשות פרסומי ניסא במקום הרבים" ומבואר בהדיא דעיקר תקנת ההדלקה היא במקום הרבים, ופשוט שבזמנים ההם מקום הרבים הרגיל הי' בביה"כ אולם עיקר תקנת ההדלקה הוא לפרסומי ניסא במקום הרבים, ואינה שייכת לביה"כ יותר מכל מקום ציבורי.
ב. והנה הנמצא במקום שיש רק גויים יל"ע האם יש ענין בפרסומי ניסא. הנה במג"א מבואר דאחר חצות אם כל בני ביתו ישנים א"א להדליק עם ברכה, משום דאין כאן פרסומי ניסא.
ובשלטי גיבורים כ' "ואם הוא בין הנכרים לבדו צריך להדליק ומשמע שם בברכה, הגם דבביתו בלילה כשאין פרסום כלל לא מברכים אעפ"כ שונה הדין כשהוא לבדו ואין פרסום כלל, דאין פרסום כלל בין הגויים, דעכ"פ מפרסם.
ומבואר דפרסומי ניסא לגויים שפיר נחשב פרסום ואפשר לברך (ולהעיר מהתעוררות התשובה ח"א קנ"ג דאם נמצא בין הגויים ידליק בחלון דווקא כדי שיראו הגויים וישאלו וכו').
אולם בשעצ"י הביא מחמד משה, שאפי' כשהוא בלילה לבדו בביתו ידליק ויברך הגם שאין פרסום, וכ' דמבואר כן בשלטי גיבורים, דהנמצא בין הגויים לבדו יברך, ומבואר דהפרסום לאחרים אינו מעכב לעצם הברכה, ולפי"ז כשרוצה להדליק במקום הרבים לפרסומי ניסא, וליכא יהודים רק גויים א"א לברך, ויל"ע בכ"ז עוד.
ומובן דבמקום הרבים, דליכא יהודים ורק גויים - אפשר לברך, משום דאיכא פרסומי ניסא.
You guys hear that? "real" snags are on the warpath. They're out for some Lubab blood!
ReplyDeletedisillusioned:
ReplyDeletethe tangents comes from retards like "real snag" who have useful to say, so please don't blame us.
What about this part
ReplyDeleteדאין מדליקין מבחוץ משום שיד עכו"ם תקיפה
?
I know many a Jew that increased their Jewish pride by attending the public menorah lightings. When I was on Shlichus in Budapest over 1000 Jews attended “Nugati Ter” to attended the lighting every night of Chanukah. There I saw Jews crying as we danced in a huge circle in a place usually frequented by neo-nazi rallies. I saw no chilul Hashem there; on the contrary I cannot fathom how a bigger Kiddush Hashem could have happened. And you know what? If it could take place in Hungary which is a longstanding cesspool of Jewish hatred then it could take place in any city in USA; the midinas hachesed. Just don’t bother the goyim about the x-mass trees and they will be more then respectful to our menorahs.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to note that there are two huge menorahs in Budapest one is Lubavitch’s in “Nugati Ter” and the others is in the Hungarian parliament organized by a well none Satmar activist named Shlomeh Berkovitch. He invites all sorts of local and foreign dignitaries to attend his lighting. The year I was there the Palestinian ambassador to Hungary was invited and honored one night. Big Kiddush Hashem that was.
The real snag is the real menuval. Go to war you twisted putz. If we arent there on the battlefield start without us,ok?
ReplyDeleteLet the misnagdim cower . . .
ReplyDeleteIn Venice, when going out to put tefillin on Yiddin in S. Marco's square (a place that they burnt shas) I would make a point of asking people who I knew were frum, but were trying to hide it (As if I think that the Yankees cap changes anything), if they had put on tefillin . . .
A Mirrer Bochur (He wasn't a misnaged, but, nebach, his mind was slightly warped by all the junk that he heard)later told me that the reason he dressed as he did was due to the "bivusta chakira, that when we go amongst Aku"m if we should show that we're Jewish or not.
Snags, snags, go away, come back another day...
ReplyDeleteIt's pirsumei nisa time, and the light has your butts licked!
Overboard.
ReplyDeleteYou my dear friend Tzig.You went overboard with turning this into a religous war.Look at all the hateful statements against people who disagree.
Chabad has a point by their Chanuka lighting and I'm sure many a 'pinteleh yid' was awoken by seeing a lit menora, however, Chabad also suffers from overkill:Do we really need to start bullying every single public space to allow a menoro?Did the Local Lubavitcher in Seattle not make a mistake by being a bully and getting so much negative feedback?
About the brocha when lighting in a public square:Different Lubavitch rabbis have different customs:Ashkenazim make a brocho on a minhag and the minhag is to light in shul, does it include every public gathering:Different opinions.
A little reiminder to Tzig:As far as I'm concerned you lost the debate when you went personal and started the nasty name calling.Remember:If you need to resort to name calling and the 'hate' boogey man your argument is weak.It's a pity here because Lubavitchs' public lightings could have won the argument based on their own merit
yechiel: you are a fool if you believe this news report, for you will have to believe every negative news report about frume Yidden. Do you really think he filed a lawsuit, or even threatened it? The airport retracted that accusation within the day. Go snag yourself.
ReplyDelete3 Chabad Bachurim were nebach killed in E"Y & this is all you can write about. Why don't you post any news on that story? Shame on you!!
ReplyDeleteIn ten years Aish et al will be doing public menorah lightings and will claim that they pioneered the idea. It will be documented by Art Scroll.
ReplyDeleteFYI, anonymous
ReplyDeleteI posted this thread before the Bochurim were killed. Thank You Very Much.
You're very welcome to write the accident. I try and stay and away from tragedies like that.
Hmmm
ReplyDeleteYou are a poster boy for what I meant about nastiness and abuse which automatically makes you lose the debate.
Lets analyze a second:Am I a 'fool' for believing that the local Lubavitch shliach went overboard in Seattle?Did all the negativity that was cause come out of 'nowhere'? Maybe, but most level headed people would believe that the Seattle story was mishandeld.You don't believe the story?No problem.Your logic that because I believe the story about Seattle, therefore 'I will believe every story about frumme yidden' is so lacking that I cannot even begin to debate it.
Btw, what does 'go snag yourself' mean?
I agree with you that the Seattle story was mishandled.
ReplyDelete'Artscroll all about money'
ReplyDeleteNice.Wait a minute.....you are always attacking artscroll for having a Litvishe 'gedolim' ideology and an anti Lubavitch bias, how does that square with 'Artscroll all about money'?If they have an ideology that contradicts 'all about money'.
For what it's worth:Lubavitch is so hypocritical.Your publishing houses ONLY publish Lubavitch, Artscroll publishes Orthodox Jewish thought from all the different theologies AND even publishes works from Lubavitchers such as Touger and Uri Kaploun.
Hirshel, you are a big talker a big partisan ideologue.Believe me Artscroll does not need you or your fellow Lubabs to buy anything from them.Meir Eichler a fellow Lubab,is their largest seller and he knows that to
tzig, you identified a bonofide anti lubavitch character!
ReplyDeleteAvi,you said that artscroll "even publishes works from Lubavitchers such as Touger and Uri Kaploun".
I don't know what they did with touger but Uri Kaploun contemplated taking Artscroll's rabonim to bais din way back...but let the issue go rather than be involved in machloikes. They changed the name of the book after he completed his translation from "A treasury of Chassidic Stories" to...A Treasury of Chasidic Tales, implying that the mysas are really myths.
Avi
ReplyDeleteIf they'd stick to translating Torah and publishing other helpful material, whether reading material for young adults, or help with raising children, I'd understand they have some interest in furthering the Jewish cause. But once I see that they're publishing Susie Fischbein cookbooks I can honestly say these guys will publish anything that'll make them a buck. Except Lubavitch, of course.
Yechiel
ReplyDeleteThe shliach in Seattle went on any TV show that would have him, locally and nationally, and clearly told everbody that his intention was NOT to remove the trees, but to have the Menorah allowed there. Any claims of supposed anti-Semitism because of his actions is silly.
''Gallery of Our Great
ReplyDeleteBy Nissan Mindel
Brief sketches of heroes from our nation's past from the children's monthly Talks and Tales (published 1941–1989). Each article is a portrait of one personality, some famous and some commonplace, giving us a perspective on his time-period, his ...''
Judaism 101 »
N, you Lubab apologist and shoiteh, one of my fondest reading materials from my youth was The Talks and Tales childrens magazine published by Kehos.Yes TALES.You guys are so low, you''ll make anything up to blacken another Jewish organization that does a better job than your poor ,partisan publishing arm
We are still in Golus, and as such, it's a Mitzvah to keep our Golus mentality. That means NO PUBLIC MENORA'S!!!!
ReplyDeleteWhen traveling, daven Shmone Esrei sitting down in your car, like Reb Ya'akov askened, etc.
That's paskened
ReplyDeleteMr no name,
ReplyDeletethe same word in two different contexts can mean very different things, even the opposite. Do you acknowledge this simple fact or do I need to spell it out? I didn't blacken anything up...Artscroll did when they twisted the title of Uri's book. Chasidim are central to jewish life, not prancing myth makers; additionally lubavitchers are fighting with the eye of the tornado of golus. This is hard to swallow ....but please go ahead and enjoy your tales....
rabbi bogomilski on the oreilly factor http://gruntig.blogspot.com/2006/12/rabbi-bogomilsky-on-oreilly-factor.html
ReplyDeleteThe Chasam Sofer writes in the Drushas on Chanuka, that since the Miracle of the Oil was only known by the kohanim inside the Beis Hamikdosh, and the entire world didn't recognise the Pirsum Hanes vs. all the other nisim that all the nations reliased, so that's why the mitzva is that the Menorah should be in "RESHUS HARABIM BEPUMBI"
ReplyDeleteWhat is this amharatzes of "chanuka is to strentghen within". This his feminine talk for some Socher Frand and his yente buddied.
It's the old "I'm Jewish in my heart" tale (though you might get heartburn from chanuka candles in your heart)
ReplyDeleteIs it true that the Rebbe gave instruction to call the Menorah a cultural "thing"?
ReplyDeleteDo you make a blessing on a cultural thing?
Wasn't that the Greek argument "Keep Torah but as a cultural thing"?
What is the halacha status of an electirc Menorah on a car?
Chnyok
ReplyDeleteWhether or not the Rebbe told to tell the court that it's cultural is irrelevant. We can understand why the need needs to be told one thing, strange as it may seem. As far as a car Menorah goes: would you like to know if you need to make a Brochoh?
1. The lawsuits that established the right to put up public menoros, even al apom ve'al chamosom of the local authorities, e.g. Chabad v Pittsburgh and Lubavitch v Cincinatti, took place before '52, and therefore obviously with the explicit approval of the Rebbe. Mi yovo achar hamelech to criticise them? If the Port of Seattle refused to allow a menorah to be erected in the same space where they had already put 14 trees, then they were breaking the law, and Bogomilski was absolutely right to remind them of this fact, and to warn them that he was prepared to sue them, not to take down the trees but to put up the menorah. That is the law, and that is the American way, and that is the way that the Rebbe approved and authorised.
ReplyDelete2. Kehos is not a general publishing house. Its purpose is not to publish stam books or seforim, but specifically to spread the maayonos of Chassidus Chabad. In the 5700s and '10s, when there was a shortage of seforim, they printed other things, such as Mishnayos and Gemoros with the Kehos shtempel, but once other people took over the task of printing these things Kehos withdrew from the business.
In fact, I heard from someone in a position to know, that when Scherman and Zlotowitz first translated Megilas Esther and were looking for a publisher, they approached Kehos to publish it for them, and Chodokov turned them down, because printing megillos is not the mission of Kehos. So they ended up self-publishing, and that led them to their whole empire.
I just saw a letter of the Hungarian prime minister stating that in the last decade since they started with the Public Menoras in his country, he reliased thousands of windows in Budapest,have the candles displayed proudly on their window.
ReplyDeleteWhat do misnagdim know about Nishmas Yisroel?
Speaking Lashon Hara about a Rabbi that you disagree with, is it really the way to go?
ReplyDeleteMillhouse, the cases were not Chabad vs Pittsburgh - The cities had actually put up the Menorahs, and the ACLU sued to take them down. It was actually ACLU vs Allegheny County, Pittsburgh etc. The Rebbe did not allow courtcases against cities or places to put up Menorahs - only defensive ones. In the case of Seattle, the Shliach actually never threatened a lawsuit, Vein kan mekomo.
ReplyDeletehmmm, you don't know what you're talking about. Chabad v Pittsburgh came after Allegheny. In Allegheny the city was defending its menorah; but by the time the Court decided to allow the menorah, there was a new mayor in town and a new policy, and the city took down the menorah of its own accord and refused Chabad's request to put up one of its own. So Chabad went back to court, and forced the city to allow a menorah. With the Rebbe's approval, of course — at that time nobody would have taken such a step without it.
ReplyDeleteAllegheny stands for the principle that a city is allowed to put up a menorah. The string of cases including Pittsburgh and Cincinatti stand for the principle that a city may not unreasonably deny a private group's request to put one up, in a place and at a time which will not interfere with the public.
In the case of Seattle, I'm sure he did threaten a suit, but not one to remove the trees.
Hmmm never makes any sense.
ReplyDeleteanon, go snag yourself.
ReplyDeleteMill, in other words, the Menorah had been up already. I see what you mean now. The Rebbe however never allowed the case lechatchila when the Menorah had not been up already.
And you have no clue of what you speak regarding Seattle. "I'm sure", based on what? Ruach Hakodesh?
What possible difference could it have made, that under the previous administration the city had put up its own menorah? How is that relevant to either the validity or the advisability of the lawsuit? The fact remains that the new administration refused to allow Chabad to put up a menorah, and Chabad successfully sued the city to force it to give permission, al apoh ve'al chamosoh. Why should the Port of Seattle be any different?
ReplyDeleteAnd what of the Cincinatti case? That too was while the Rebbe was running things, and nothing of this sort was done without his approval.
The bottom line is that Lubavitch pioneered these cases, and without them there would be no public menorahs anywhere. And the fact that you thought Allegheny is the latest and controlling case means that you don't know enough about the issue to comment.
No, I thought you were referring to Allegheny, not that Allegheny was the latest case.
ReplyDeleteAgain, you failed to notice the distinction (which is the one the Rebbe's Mazkiros will tell you of if you ask) - if a Menorah had already been placed, fight to keep it up. If you are only asking for inital permission, do not fight. In the Seattle case the airport had not yet put up a Menorah. AND THE AIRPORT ITSELF RETRACTED ITS ACCUSATION. Does that help you.
Bottom line, he is out of touch with the needs of kiruv.
ReplyDelete