All this talk about Novardok and its failure to re-establish itself after WWII neither in the US nor in Israel has gotten some of us to think that maybe the study of Mussar has seen better days. Maybe the Salanter's dream was only for a short period of time, when Jews were falling by the wayside and needed to be strengthened in character? Maybe today, when Torah study is abundant, and even full-time study has become the norm, maybe we don't need character refinement anymore. Well, according to one Rabbi nothing can be further from the truth. A quick glance at the morning newspaper can bring even the most naive among us back to reality.
Rabbi Ira Stone thinks it's time for Jews to reinvest in Mussar, and where better than Philadelphia, home of the Talmudical Academy of. Jack Abramoff and the constant flow of scandal tells us all that it's time we dust off the Mesilas Yeshorim and do some soul searching. He's been teaching Mussar for ten years now, mixing Luzzato, Emmanuel Levinas, and various books by Mesorah/Artscroll. I say more power to him, the world needs it, especially when caring for animals can now be incorporated into Mussar too! We also learn that Luzzato had another side to him, namely that which author Isaiah Tishby calls the "Messianic Mysticism of Moses Chaim Luzzatto." It also helps deflect the criticism that Chassidus and Kaballah take due to the fact that Berg and others have hijacked it. So take heed, o' Mussarites, a new dawn has arrived!
Middot
Mesillat Yesharim
Links
You are obviously not aware of the surce of one of your links (Midot)- which is taken from the book "Cheshbon Hanefesh by Mendel Lapin of Satanov: this Mendel Lapin is one of the founders and orignal leaders of the Haskalah movement!!! Moreover, that particular book has already been exposed by scholars to be a plagiarist Hebrew translation taken verbatim from the writings of Benjamin Franklin - in particular his list of the 13 character-traits! It duped many rabbis, including R. Israel Salanter, who gave an approbation and encouraged its publication, as well as R. Isaac Sher of Slobodka etc., which accounts for its popularity in the Litvak world (and Feldheims published an English translation).
ReplyDeleteInteresting how chochmat goyim, filtered by a maskil (one of the first to urge the banning of publishing Kabbalah and Chassidus works by the secular authorities) has infiltrated the spiritual mind-set and hashkafah of the mussar-movement and the Litvishe world. Speaks volumes, doesn't it?
Honest Litvak
Honest Litvak
ReplyDeleteI'm well aware of Mendel Lapin, I just failed to realize that he was mentioned in that link. The point is that the whole idea of Mussar renewal was born from a Conservative Rabbi, which I was well aware of, so having Mendel Lapin is no surprise.
There's Mussar renewal that isn't from a Conservative rabbi, although the heterodox seem to be taking to it more than the Orthodox. There's this Alan Morinis who has a Traveling Mussar Show.
ReplyDeleteThere's also this organization with which I'm somewhat involved, AishDas (not to be confused with Aish Hatorah). Commenter Milhouse is also somewhat involved with them. One of their big problems, aside from the general apathy of the Orthodox community to mussar, or anything that suggests there might be something amiss in the triumphalism, is that most of the mussar material, as practically implemented, was aimed at yeshiva students, who could devote large chunks of time to it on a daily or weekly basis. It wasn't really aimed at baalebatim.
R' Alan Brill suggested that we go all the way back to R' Salanter, who really was aiming at balebatim.
Milhouse has also remarked to me that the Tanya is in part a mussar sefer - what with recommending a weekly cheshbon hanefesh, and the material on not giving in to yeiush.
If to learn Tanya it needs to be considered Mussar, then by all means...
ReplyDeleteThe guy calling himself 'Honest Litvak' is not a real Litvak. Stop the phony masquerading, it's not Purim yet, come out of the closet and call yourself a Lubavitcher.
ReplyDeleteWho do you think you are fooling anyway ?
It's hurting you where it counts, eh snag?
ReplyDeleteToo bad for you, Snag, but it so happens that, unlike you and all those uninformed new-age pretend-Litvaks, I am a full-fledged, full-blooded Litvak, scion of an unbroken chain going back literally hundreds of years of Litvishe rabbonim and roshei yeshivos (and if I were to name you some of my ancestors right down to pre- and post-war Litte, it would make your hair stand on end, and in view of my present Lubavitch sympathies - most likely you would faint in disbelief). But as I was raised by my Litvak father and Litvak mother, as well as my Litvak (and other) rabeyim to value truth above anything else, I am and call myself Honest Litvak. Yes, to your surprise, there still are honest Litvaks for whom truth means more than politics and party-line loyalty, and that is what brought me to a Chabad connection.
ReplyDeleteIf you would pray with greater kavonoh "veho'er eineinu besorosecho vedabek libeinu bemitzvosecho" you, too, may, by the grace of the Almighty, see the light one day. So take to heart the psak hamishnah: shuv yom echod lifnei etc.!
Honest Litvak
To the guy calling himself 'honest Litvak' -
ReplyDelete1) I am a real Litvak, not a Hungarian pretending I am a Litvak, so you should apologize for calling me a 'pretend-Litvak'.
2) Limayseh, you have left the Litvishe derech, whatever spin you want to put on it. You have strayed from the ways of your Avos. It's time for you to do teshuvoh.
3) It's good that your parents raised you to value truth. But sometimes people can get farblonzhet when they are looking for truth and it seems that's what happened in your case. Hopefully you will see the light before it's too late.
"You have strayed from the ways of your Avos."
ReplyDeleteAnd you were caught on dreitzender gas! Vu di meidelach geien! And you chapped a sigaret!
The good old Mussar, how sad that it no longer works... The loss of innocence.
snag said...
ReplyDeleteTo the guy calling himself 'honest Litvak' -
1) I am a real Litvak, not a Hungarian pretending I am a Litvak, so you should apologize for calling me a 'pretend-Litvak'.
____
"Real Litvak" in what way? One of your parents Litvaks, or having learned in a Litvak yeshivah? Certainly not in the true spirit of an honest Litvak. As for me, not only is it hundreds of years of "pure Litvak blood" (sounds racist, doesn't it?), but also having been in my childhood in pre-war Litte and breathed the physical air and the spirit of some of its great mekomos hatorah.
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2) Limayseh, you have left the Litvishe derech, whatever spin you want to put on it. You have strayed from the ways of your Avos. It's time for you to do teshuvoh.
____
Left the Litvishe derech? Which one? The one of R. Mordechai Meltzer who gave haskomos not only to Mishneh Berurah etc. but also to a Chassidic-Kabbalistic work of the Koydonover Rebbe? Or the one of the Chofets Chaim who had a close relationship with the 5th and 6th Lubavitcher Rebbes,as well as many Polish rebbes, who defined Chassidus as the "derech hayemin" (as opposed to the Litvishe derech as the memutza), who said that without pnimiyus hatorah one is meandering in darkness, and above all - who wrote Chofets Chaim and Shmiras Haloshon, which you and your fellow-travellers are consistently and continuoulsy ignoring and violating (and who, incidentally, was the original meshichist by continuously proclaiming the literally imminent coming of Moshiach and how we must demand - thus technically the author of "we want Moshiach NOW!!!")? Or the one of the Telzer Rov (Maharil) who cited the Tanya in his mussar-shmuessen - referring to it as "Tanya Kadisha"?
Or R. Elyohu Dessler who based his whole derech on a mizug of Mussar and Chassidus (in particular Chabad and Kotzk), and who stated that the best part of his life was the time spent with R. Yitzchak Masmid who taught him chassidus Chabad?
No, I am following in their footsteps, the true Litvishe derech, as opposed to the make-believe illusory claims of contemporary revisionists and mecharcherei riv umodon!!
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3) It's good that your parents raised you to value truth. But sometimes people can get farblonzhet when they are looking for truth and it seems that's what happened in your case. Hopefully you will see the light before it's too late.__
____
Yes, indeed, one can get farblondzhet. But one who values and truthfully pursues truth never stops searching, and is assured by the Torah that he will find the way. But those who entombed themselves in their dark caves imagening that they are the sole depository of truth and have it all, patshing their beichelech saying "sissu bnei me'ai sissu" that I have the one and only way, and allow themselves to be brainwashed by mental midgets, will forever remain in condemning darkness and falsehood, deny facts, revise history, too preoccupied in their ego to recognize reality and compelled to denounce, belittle and condemn all those who think differently than they do: somim or lachoshech vechoshech le'or. They see themselves as "chachomim" - and indeed they are, as it says in the possuk "chachomim lehora"!
You should take to heart that the Semak rules that to imagine in your eyes and mind that you are already a tzadik is an explicit prohibition of the Torah.
Honest Litvak
"You should take to heart that the Semak rules that to imagine in your eyes and mind that you are already a tzadik is an explicit prohibition of the Torah."
ReplyDeleteWow! Where in the Semak is this? Under Lo Sasuru?
Smak, siman 14 (a "lav" on its own!).
ReplyDeleteThank you!
ReplyDeleteHL -
ReplyDelete1) Your name itself is offensive, as it implies that stam a Litvak is not emesdik (רחמנא ליצלן).
2) "Real Litvak" in what way? One of your parents Litvaks, or having learned in a Litvak yeshivah? Certainly not in the true spirit of an honest Litvak."
I qualify for the title in all the ways you mention.
"As for me, not only is it hundreds of years of "pure Litvak blood" (sounds racist, doesn't it?), but also having been in my childhood in pre-war Litte and breathed the physical air and the spirit of some of its great mekomos hatorah."
You are that old ? Surprising. I can think of who you might be. איהר וויינט אפשר אין טאראנטא? Anyway, limayseh it's never too late to do teshuvoh and return to the derech of your ovos hakedayshim.
Re your comments re R. Meltzer, the Chofetz Chaim, R. Bloch and R. Dessler - you are taking isolated cases and presenting them as if they were the Litvishe way, rather than exceptions to it. Exceptions do not make a rule.
A) Re R. Meltzer - who knows of him today ? Ask people here is they ever heard of him.
B) Re R. Bloch and R. Dessler - it's true that at one time Tanya was learned in Telshe. But that was only briefly and was stopped many years ago. That was not the Litvishe norm and even they abandoned that deviation after a while.
C) Re the Chofetz Chaim - limayseh, not everything he said or did was mikubal by all gedolei Lita, as mevinim know (though the ignorant masses may not).
D) "...who defined Chassidus as the "derech hayemin" (as opposed to the Litvishe derech as the memutza), who said that without pnimiyus hatorah one is meandering in darkness, and above all - who wrote Chofets Chaim and Shmiras Haloshon, which you and your fellow-travellers are consistently and continuoulsy ignoring and violating..."
Where did he say the first two things you mention? Source please.
Anyway, even if he said it, it doesn't mean it was accepted by rov gedolei Lita. Re penimiyus HaTorah - he could have said that, but it doesn't mean that he meant Tanya and other Lubavitcher seforim davka. There are other types of penimyus haTorah. Lubavitch holds no patent on it.
Re the other thing you wrote - it's funny how you Lubavitchers drag out the Chofetz Chaim when it suits you, while at other times ignoring or belittling him and his work. Like I have seen Lubavitchers oppose the Mishnah Berura and say that the CC was too machmir re shemiras haloshon.
Snag
ReplyDeleteyour comments are insulting to the independent spirit that was prevalent in Di Lita. That gets me thinking that maybe you're stam an impostor parading around as a Litvak.
Your comments re: telshe and their derech are degrading to the Kedoshim of Telshe. Today's telshe changed. Most of them know little about Vaadim and basically discontinued that derech. Other than their Nusach they're no different than any other Yeshivah in America. The Machlokes has destroyed Cleveland, reb Elya Meir's pride and joy, just like they threw out his family, ואכמ"ל
The CC gets his due respect, stop looking over your houlder.
snag said... HL -1) Your name itself is offensive, as it implies that stam a Litvak is not emesdik (רחמנא ליצלן).
ReplyDelete___
No comment. Just to remind you about the expression "tzelem-kop."
And see below.
__
2) "Real Litvak" in what way? One of your parents Litvaks, or having learned in a Litvak yeshivah? Certainly not in the true spirit of an honest Litvak."
I qualify for the title in all the ways you mention.
____
You forgot to mention that "other blood" flowing through your veins. We know about it!See my last line below.
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"As for me, not only is it hundreds of years of "pure Litvak blood" (sounds racist, doesn't it?), but also having been in my childhood in pre-war Litte and breathed the physical air and the spirit of some of its great mekomos hatorah."
You are that old ? Surprising. I can think of who you might be. איהר וויינט אפשר אין טאראנטא? Anyway, limayseh it's never too late to do teshuvoh and return to the derech of your ovos hakedayshim.
_____
"Old" isa relative term. As for my residence - it may shock you, but it is in a very well-known mokom Toroh in the tri-state area that is chock-full of would-be Litvaks.
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Re your comments re R. Meltzer, the Chofetz Chaim, R. Bloch and R. Dessler - you are taking isolated cases and presenting them as if they were the Litvishe way, rather than exceptions to it. Exceptions do not make a rule.
___
How interesting. To me they are the pride and glory of Litte, while the mecharcherei riv who kept the works uf Dostoyevski, Tolstoy and Pushkin under their Gemoros (read Making of a Godol...) are the exceptions who do not make a rule.
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A) Re R. Meltzer - who knows of him today ? Ask people here is they ever heard of him.
____
So am-horatzus is an excuse? The same people also don't know the names and seforim of most rishonim and acharonim, except for the few yeshivishe mesichtos-commentaries.
B) Re R. Bloch and R. Dessler - it's true that at one time Tanya was learned in Telshe. But that was only briefly and was stopped many years ago. That was not the Litvishe norm and even they abandoned that deviation after a while.
_____
You are again mixing apples and oranges. I was talking not about learning Tanya in Telshe, but R. Bloch citing the Tanya in his mussar-shmuessen.
As for R. Dessler, he continued with his derech until his passing. His successor as mashgiach in Ponevesh (himself heroized by your people as a great baal mussar)lamented this fact and said it took him 20 years to uproot this "evil anomaly" from that yeshivah!
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C) Re the Chofetz Chaim - limayseh, not everything he said or did was mikubal by all gedolei Lita, as mevinim know (though the ignorant masses may not).
____
You just proved my point, especially in context of your first comment! The CC was the godol shebigedolim in Litte, but as he was an honest Litvak and not a politician basically had only one true, full-fledged talmid, i.e. Reb Elchonon who listened to him.
_____
D) "...who defined Chassidus as the "derech hayemin" (as opposed to the Litvishe derech as the memutza), who said that without pnimiyus hatorah one is meandering in darkness, and above all - who wrote Chofets Chaim and Shmiras Haloshon, which you and your fellow-travellers are consistently and continuoulsy ignoring and violating..."
Where did he say the first two things you mention? Source please.
_____
His son's biographical sketches (dugmo mibeis ovi), no. 37 and 50.
As for pnimiyus Hatorah, since you don't like or care for the CC (like your "gedolei Litte" because he makes you and them feel very uncomfortable), go back to the Gro (authoritative enough for you?), who went a step further and said that you cannot understand simple pshat in nigleh without understanding its underpinnings in nistar (see Even Shelemah ch. 8 and 11).
____
Anyway, even if he said it, it doesn't mean it was accepted by rov gedolei Lita.
____
Did you count them? Obviously you are totally unaware of the Litvishe mekubolim and their school following the Gro and the Nefesh Hachayim. Then again, you redefine the real "gedolei Lita" with the mental midgets who were/are your brainwashing roshei yeshivos, vedai lameivin.
______
Re penimiyus HaTorah - he could have said that, but it doesn't mean that he meant Tanya and other Lubavitcher seforim davka. There are other types of penimyus haTorah. Lubavitch holds no patent on it.
_____
First rational thing you said, and I agree wholeheartedly.
______
Re the other thing you wrote - it's funny how you Lubavitchers drag out the Chofetz Chaim when it suits you, while at other times ignoring or belittling him and his work. Like I have seen Lubavitchers oppose the Mishnah Berura and say that the CC was too machmir re shemiras haloshon.
________
a) Drag out the CC when it suits? You make it sound as if the CC invented shemiras haloshon. These are halochos of Torah min haShomayim no less than hilchos Shabbos or hilchos tereifos!
b)Re Lub. opposing MB? Is that why the Lub. rebbe cited him frequently? Indeed they do not pasken like him when his views differ from Hagra"z and Lub. traditions, just as plenty Litvaks and others do not follow the MB when they have differing traditions; but oppose? Where but in your wild "honest" imagination did you suck that from? It is in your yeshivos that they claim the Shemiras Haloshon is too strict and therefore they ignore it, not in chassidic circles.
The more you write the more you demonstrate that other blood flowing in your veins, as ruled in Kidushin daf 70-71, ShA Even Ho'ezer 2:2; look it up carefully and draw your conclusions!
Honest Litvak
It seems that for snag a "real litvak" = misganed, i.e. as for today - one diseased with spiritual blindness becaus of his gaive. A very "honorable" quality to be very proud about.
ReplyDeleteTo Tzig
ReplyDelete"your comments are insulting to the independent spirit that was prevalent in Di Lita. That gets me thinking that maybe you're stam an impostor parading around as a Litvak."
Independent spirit ? Okay, there was some of that, but there were limits too. As stated, Tanya was not a typical limmud.
Re Telshe - as I stated, the Tanya classes were discontinued long ago and were only there briefly (relatively). More recent changes are in a different category.
HL -
ReplyDeleteYour comments are disgraceful.
You are michaneh a whole group of yidden as "tzelem-kop." I see that you have really absorbed ahavas Yisroel in your Chassidus.
""Old" is a relative term. As for my residence - it may shock you, but it is in a very well-known mokom Toroh in the tri-state area that is chock-full of would-be Litvaks."
Why are you living in a Litvish area, why don't you live in Crown Heights or another Lubavitcher area??
In your book, those who have a shita you like are the pride of Lita, while others who have different shita aren't, huh ? Well, FYI, you are not the one to decide that. Since you have left the way of Lita, you cannot decide that.
"The more you write the more you demonstrate that other blood flowing in your veins, as ruled in Kidushin daf 70-71, ShA Even Ho'ezer 2:2; look it up carefully and draw your conclusions!"
Wow, another display of great ahavas Yisroel. You are displaying such sinoh, that the same can be said about you, HT and some others here. Is this the ahavas Yisroel that Chassidus claims to practice and hold so dear?
To be so consumed with hate at your age ? I can understand young people can get heated up and carried away, but someone your age ? Refuah shleima...
snag said... HL -Your comments are disgraceful. You are michaneh a whole group of yidden as "tzelem-kop." I see that you have really absorbed ahavas Yisroel in your Chassidus.
ReplyDelete****
Seems I gave you more credit than you deserved, even believing your claim to some Litvishe roots. Sorry for having ben wrong. It is obvious that you are not familiar with the old (NON-chassidic) expression of "a Litvak is a tzelemkop" and what it means. Well, too bad.
___________
""Old" is a relative term. As for my residence - it may shock you, but it is in a very well-known mokom Toroh in the tri-state area that is chock-full of would-be Litvaks."
Why are you living in a Litvish area, why don't you live in Crown Heights or another Lubavitcher area??
****
To tell the truth, it is because that is where my family moved and where most family-members live. On the other hand, it enables me to say every day with greater gratitude to Hashem "ashreinu ma tov chelkeinu" etc. and "boruch Elokeinu .. shehivdilonu min hatoim" etc. ......
_____________
In your book, those who have a shita you like are the pride of Lita, while others who have different shita aren't, huh ? Well, FYI, you are not the one to decide that. Since you have left the way of Lita, you cannot decide that.
****
Let me answer that by quoting a great sage who says it better than I could: "In your book, those who have a shita you like are the pride of Lita, while others who have different shita aren't, huh ? Well, FYI, you are not the one to decide that. Since you have left the way of Lita, you cannot decide that."
Get it, my friend?
__________________
"The more you write the more you demonstrate that other blood flowing in your veins, as ruled in Kidushin daf 70-71, ShA Even Ho'ezer 2:2; look it up carefully and draw your conclusions!"
Wow, another display of great ahavas Yisroel. You are displaying such sinoh, that the same can be said about you, HT and some others here. Is this the ahavas Yisroel that Chassidus claims to practice and hold so dear?
****
I would be very grateful to you if you will be so kind and show me the sinoh or lack of ahavas Yisroel you detect in my quoting the Gemoro and the Shulchan Aruch. If the shoe fits, and you recognized yourself and your compatriots in that halochoh, then you will know how to correct it accordingly. To point that out to you and make you aware of it is not only the greatest ahavas Yisroel but also the kiyum of several other mitzvos assei. And if you don't recognize yourself, then no harm done; in fact, again a mitzvoh, of causing you to look into the gemoro and the shulchan oruch so that you did some limud Torah - caused by, and therfore a little tikun for, your not-so-nice postings. So you should say thank you!
_______
To be so consumed with hate at your age ? I can understand young people can get heated up and carried away, but someone your age ?
****
If I had written with hate and "heated up" you would have enjoyed different words from the dictionary. Lucky for you, being familiar with your mind-set for so many years, I no longer get "heated up". At most I shake my head and say "nebich, a rachmonus." The only reason I responded was to defend the honor of my "alte heim" and my ancestors.
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Refuah shleima...
****
Thank you. Very much appreciated (on the assumption that you really meant it), and hamevorech misborech. Kol tuv (tuv ho'emiti, ve'ein tov elo Torah - so once you opened the gemoro and shulchan aruch, please don't close them and continue learning, and no doubt but that hamo'or shebo machsirom lemutov).
Honest Litvak (and hopefully not the only or last one)
Honest Litvak
ReplyDeleteYou are a closet Lubab and you are full of lies.Happens to be that the Chofetz Chaim was a big misnaged to Chabad, and your silly joke of making him close to the Raya'tz is plain insulting in its ignorance.He was 'only' twenty years older than RAYAT'Zs father ,Rash'b!
The midda of a true Litvack is to seek the truth, therefore the Chofetz Chaim brings the Alter Rebbe down numerous times, in the bechina of 'kabel ess hoemes mmi sheomro'Juxtapose this to the silly bans mentioned on the blog regarding the study of Rashash etc.
A more fitting name for you would be dishonest Lubab
yeskusiel
ReplyDeletea young shnook like yourself, whose connection to Lita is learning in some Yeshiva named after a Lithuanian town, should sit quietly and have some respect for the real thing. You speak like a typical 16 year old pi--er who knows zero about the Alte Heim but figures that since the CC was from Di Lita he must've been a Bnei Brakker animal. Go crawl back to your hole!
and snag yourself.
ReplyDeleteYekusiel - that guy is a fraud, he is trying to rewrite history and claim that Litvaks weren't misnagdim, only a few people in Bnei Brak are causing trouble. So I guess the Vilna Gaon and other misnagdim for doros lived in Bnei Brak too then ?
ReplyDeleteHe is full of hate, along with some other people on this site.
He calls Litvaks tzelem kop. Can you imagine what would happen if someone would call Lubavitchers that ? They would be on the warpath. But it's okay for him to call Litvaks with such a kinui.
Sometimes it's better not to answer these ksilim.
Re TSELEM-KOP
ReplyDeleteDefinitions of a Litvak being “tzelem-kop”.
#1
“The reality of Lithuanian Jewry was increasingly subject to innovative, practical, and constant examination in order to find the golden path between the fundamental values of traditional Jewish society and the surrounding world. As a result of this in-depth type of examination, Polish Jews called Lithuanian Jews tselem kep [Crucifix Heads]. The quintessential tselem kop does not judge objects according to their external appearance, but aspires to examine them thoroughly. It is not known when this characteristic of Lithuanian Jews was formed. However, given the fact that this was the typical characteristic of scholars, the very icons of Lithuanian Jewish society, it is only natural that the same attitude would be extended to areas unrelated to religious study.”
#2
- And why is it said of the Litvak that he is a tzelem kop (cross head)? Because the Litvak adheres to his opinion and says to his opponents: “You can stretch lengthwise or sidewise,” while drawing a cross in the air, “but I am right.”
You can also Google for it!
"Sometimes it's better not to answer these ksilim."
ReplyDeleteThen why are you here, Snag-I-am?
Hmmmm
ReplyDeleteplease don't banish anyone from here! Allow me that honor if I deem it necessary.
"only a few people in Bnei Brak are causing trouble"
ReplyDeleteIsn't there a gemorre that states "mibnei bonov shel Homon lomdoo Toireh biBne Brak?"
Re tselem-kop -
ReplyDeleteThanks for the pshotim. However, there is another angle to it, which you don't mention. Ikkar choseir min hasefer. It's not an accident that they picked tselem rather than some other way to express those ideas.
The other angle is that the people who called Litvaks that, usually Chassidim, held that the Litvaks were too modern and held them to be apikorsim at some level. That's why they called them that.
Eino yoytze midei pshutoi.
But, derech agav, lishitoscho, that it doesn't have to do with Chassidus and Hisnagdus, so then you're saying it would be okay to call Litvishe Chassidim like Lubavitcher, Stolin, Slonimer tzeilem kep too ? Just checking. Were the nesiim of Lubavitch tselem kep ?
They picked tselem for the simple reason that a tselem - whichever way you are going to turn it, it always remains a tselem.
ReplyDeleteThis is the universal definition.
Your definition comes from your guilty conscience - knowing what goes on in your and your freinds' minds. After all, kol hapoisel bemumoi poisel!
I've never heard Tseyelem Kop used in Lubavitch, but that's only me. What I HAVE heard is that The Munkacser Rov said that Az m'shnait oyf a Litvak vet men treffen a Tseylem in Hartz, un oyb nisht iz mit eyn Litvak veyniger! I never heard that in Lubavitch either.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that you retain the Tseylem Kop mentality after finding Chassidus, so all "Chassidishe Litvaks" are Yotze MiKlal zeh.
Ich freg erensterheit, I enjoy stupid people. No banning involved.
ReplyDelete"Your definition comes from your guilty conscience - knowing what goes on in your and your freinds' minds. After all, kol hapoisel bemumoi poisel!"
ReplyDeleteYou are a liar, whether you call yourself Honest Abe Lincoln, Honest Litvak, Honest Sfardi, Honest Chinaman, Honest Uzbek, Honest Kazakh, or Honest Shoiteh.
It is bavust by hamoinim that that is an (if not the) ikkar meaning of the term.
As HT wrote "I've never heard Tseyelem Kop used in Lubavitch, but that's only me. What I HAVE heard is that The Munkacser Rov said that Az m'shnait oyf a Litvak vet men treffen a Tseylem in Hartz, un oyb nisht iz mit eyn Litvak veyniger!..."
At least HT is honest here.
"I never heard that in Lubavitch either."
I don't think they liked it. Although haters like those represented by the despicable statement of the ME hate Litvaks (misnagdim) more than Lubavitchers, I think they aren't crazy about Lubavitchers either.
"I don't think that you retain the Tseylem Kop mentality after finding Chassidus, so all "Chassidishe Litvaks" are Yotze MiKlal zeh."
Not so poshut, depends on the pshat, depends on the perspective.
The statement of the ME is another example of the great Ahavas Yisroel of Chassidim.
Snag
ReplyDeletethe ME was a great lover of Chassidus and Kabbalah, and he saw it as his duty to trumpet the idea that Nigleh and Chassidus are היינו הך and one is just as true and important as the other. I would venture to say that his Pisgom about Litvishe had something to do with him seeing them as Modern people, and he castigated them just as he did all Agudists, even Rebbes like the Imrei Emes.
Tzig, it's true that the ME made sharp statements against others as well and was pretty extreme. However, in this case he was not creating a new yesoid. This idea of attacking and being michaneh Litvaks as tezeilem kep, already existed. Maybe he just added a part (like part two of what you wrote starting from oyb nisht).
ReplyDeleteActually, men ken freggen, vos iz pshat, the expression is tzelem kop and he talks about finding a tzeylem in hartz ? Which is it, hartz or kop ? Also, hayitochein, he admits that it's possible that a tzeylem wouldn't be there ?? Maybe he was getting shvach when he said it.
Another well-known proverb was that if you shake hands with a Litvak you should count your fingers. I think it's quoted in Sefer Hasichos, maybe in 5700.
ReplyDeleteWow, the Chassidishe Ahavas Yisroel is overwhelming, once again...
ReplyDeleteMilhouse
ReplyDeleteI would ask you to bring a source for that, an exact source.
Milhouse's "proverb" is false. It was said of Galicianer and/or Rumenishe, never about Litvaks. Again has nothing to do with chassidism vs. misnagdim (same as tselem-kop), but as an oilemshe characterization.
ReplyDeleteRe Tzig's attribution of another saying to Munkatsher, personally I don't believe it to be true. Doesn't fit the picture. Munkatsher was very sharp in condemning variant ideologies (Zionists, Misrachi, Agudah etc.), but never on personal level. R. Chaim Ehrenreich has eulogy for Munkatsher in his journal Oitstrois Chayim, in which he relates how the Munkatsher told him off sharply, an he complained - how he just saw how he treated a Zionist leader with respect and warmth, and the M. answered him that he dealt with him on a personal level, not for what he represents, unlike RCE who he castigated for his position etc. The M was a godoil shebigedoilim, as a tamid chochom, poisek, mekubal, Rebbe etc., a kodoish vetohoir with total and genuine ahavas Yisroel, thus the latter part of the saying here attributed to him simply does not fit.
As Tzig said " would ask you to bring a source for that, an exact source."
Dishonest Lubab, Honest Litvack,how do you get those names?I find it funny, and all in the Jewish spirit of debating issiues to death.
ReplyDeleteSorry, took a break from blogs. Back now.
ReplyDeleteI can't provide a more exact source without reading through Sefer Hasichos to find where I saw it. I think it was in 5700, but I may be mistaken on that. It was somewhere there, though. But I'm not checking through the whole thing just to make sure.
maybe check the Mafteach?
ReplyDeleteFor a one-liner derogatory phrase about Litvaks? Only a very thorough index would have that!
ReplyDeleteOK, I checked it out, and discovered once again the dangers of relying on years-old memories. There is indeed a proverb about Litvaks there, but it's not the one I quoted, which is indeed something the velt says about Romanians. The line I misremembered from Sefer Hasichos about Litvaks is that a Litvak gleibt nit biz er tzeilt iber.
ReplyDeleteI guess somewhere in the back of my mind I wondered whether perhaps Litvaks developed this habit by doing business too often with Romanians, and the two proverbs got crossed.
My apologies to all.
So called honest Litvak (an admitted Lubavitcher) claims that he grew up in ‘der heim’. Which assuming he was 10 in 1940 (the youngest possible to claim to have grown up in ‘der heim’) would now be 77 years old. No fool like an old fool. Probably the oldest blogger there is. Or he is just a dishonest Lubavitcher.
ReplyDeleteI'm flattered, Twisty, that you're reading all the old threads, but nobody else sees what you're wriritng, because they don't go that far back. Besides, Honest Litvack is a Litvack, he just doesn't agree with your distorted Litvishism. Live with it.
ReplyDelete