Wednesday, April 18, 2007
Chossid gets no respect
You readers of the English language Mishpachah these last few months have defintely read the story of Yisroel, the prize "catch" from Ponovezher Yeshivah, who lives the dream of a good Yeshivah Bochur, getting a top-notch Shidduch, an apartment as Naden, and being supported while in Kolel. He somehow discovers (the fictitious) "Milchover" Chassidus, and becomes increasingly drawn into it, against the wishes of all his family - including his wife. The "complaints" against Chassidim and Chasssidus, the classic stereotypes of all Kugel and no Torah, the lack of adherence to Halochoh, they're all there, albeit from the perspective of the Misnaged. The Milchover Rebbe and his Chassidim are made into a bunch of fools at best, and charlatans at worst. The wife has been taught well by her brothers and father, and instead of respecting her husband's wishes - which she sees has only a positive affect on his observance of Torah and Mitzvohs - she criticizes and questions at every opportunity. This character must have nerves of steel to take this from his wife of all people. Hey lady: Cut your husband some slack, will ya? Don't worry so much about your Yenta friends.
I found myself being transported back to my Bocher'ishe days, and I emphathized very much with Yisroel and all he was going through. The scorn from supposed friends, and the aggravation from family members. ( I did not have to live through the disrespect from family, b"h) I could not help but realize how so many of our brothers (and sisters, for that matter, there are girls out there that are attracted to Chassidus) have to live through the same ordeal. They make a conscious decision that there's a better way for them to live their lives, not to CH"V leave the fold, but to adopt a different way of serving Hashem. They love their parents, spouses, and families, but they choose to live their lives differently. After all, can we really expect that all of our children be exactly the same? I b"h did not have to live through that, being that my parents were supportive for the most part, although it meant some self-sacrifice on their parts. Supposedly there's even a Vort from Chassidim of the Mitteler Rebbe of Lubavitch that goes like this: We do not know if Chassidus Lubavitch will last another generation, since it's based so much on putting your hearts and minds into the learning of Chassidus, and how can we be sure that our children will want that as well? We cannot force them to be like us, but we hope that we can influence them by our actions to continue in our path. If the young man or woman chooses a different path is it so terrible? (Please don't start with the Apikorsus chants, because I won't have any of it.) Parents who want the best for their children must realize that the best, is THE CHILD'S best, not the parents'. I'm waiting to see how this Mishpachah story ends up. Will he remain a Chossid? I think so, he seems too much into it to leave now. What the wife and her family do, if her brothers and father get to her and force her to do something rash remains to be seen.
Once you chose to change, what in heavens did you find in chabad!
ReplyDeletewere you to ask rabbi heller if he would do it all over again where would he choose to run?
Why didn't you give the option that the F-I-L would also become a chosid!
ahh, the 770 dollar question: why did I choose Chabad?
ReplyDelete1) The Rebbe. 'nuff said.
2) The other 6 Rabbeyim.
3) Toras Chabad.
4) Nigunei Chabad.
5) Chabad history.
6) Chabad as history.
and the list goes on....
I have been reading the story quite faithfully myself. Mishpacha stories always end up happily ever after. She will clearly be won over; first her father will become more accepting and then she will go the whole way and she will become Chassidish.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Milchov is a cover for Lubavitch? I do, albeit a far more subtle one than Potok's "Ladover".
Tzig:The reasons I did not become Chabad are a bit of a reverse of yours:The Rebbe:The over emphasis of the Rebbe already as a kid turned me off, his picture everywhere were a major turnoff.
ReplyDeleteThe othe Rebbayim:I see myself being a chosid of the Zemach Tzedek, the Kopuster, don't know enough about the others, but know enough that I would not be a chosid of at least one (not my style, but not a negative statement per se)
Chabad history:Well, some chasidim were really baaley mesiras nefesh, thoughthe actual dynasty line has not fared very well.
Toras Chabad:Actually I'm attracted to the Baal Hatanyas nigleh, and to what I can understand of Likutei Torah. Same for Tzemach Tzedek.Todays Rebbe:Impressive bekius,lomdus in my opinion at least:Different, difficult to get used to, long winded.
Niggunim:If I was basing my chasides on nigunnim would for sure go for R'Shlomo Carlebach, it's a mixture of the best of Modzitz with some Chabad influences.
The best reason for not becoming Chabad is the shambles it is in today, but I agree, it was a bit difficult to see the degree of madness it would descend into twenty years later
A Picture of a Tzaddik is supposed to infuse you with Yiras Shomayim. I guess es felt in di mekabel?
ReplyDeleteCarlebach over Chabad nigunim? Have you no soul?
I would guess that the only reason you like Kopust is because you think it's the "real" Chabad, and Strashele is the "real" continuation of the Ba'al HaTanya? I fail to see what fascinates people so much about it.
I'll take Chabad in shambles over any other supposed "strong" group, ANYDAY.
"The othe Rebbayim:I see myself being a chosid of the Zemach Tzedek, the Kopuster, don't know enough about the others, but know enough that I would not be a chosid of at least one (not my style, but not a negative statement per se)"
ReplyDeleteIt is of course always easier to be a Chossid of a Rebbe who is not there. As we are finding out today. I would actually posit that those who predicted the demise of Lubavitch after Gimmel Tammuz were short-sighted precisely because of this, it was more difficult to be a Chossid before when you could be hauled on the red carpet (well, the tiled floor) at any time. Now you can recreate the Rebbe in your image.
Re:R'Shlomo,
ReplyDeletePeople have different taste, but I think that if a poll was taken R'Shlomo would win hands down,I myself have caught the most souless snags, the exact opposite of Shloyme, farbrenging on his tunes.
I'm not a hater of Chabad. My points were my opinion, I only speak for myself.The shambles in Chabad is really giving Chabad a black eye, I wish they could sort it out
I don't think the FIL will become a Chossid simply because he's too old. It's tough to change at that age.
ReplyDeletei was at a farbrangen in tzemach tzedek in the old city, R chaim sholom was farbrenging, chaim dovid (shlomo talmid/singer) was there, he said iirc he feels a chabad nigun demands something of him, not so by carlebach.
ReplyDeleteThe story shleps on with no new developments for weeks at a time. Please give me a wake-up call when something actually happens.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I dislike the caricature they make of litvaks: the loshon horoh, sinas chinom, rechilus, and judgmentalism that goes on in the Deutch family would never happen in real life by a family who are such bnei torah as this family supposedly is.
Ah, but that's the point of such so-called stories, to keep the reader coming back for more. Besides, they still probably haven't decided what the end will be, so they can't actually finish it yet. Give it another 40-50 weeks.
ReplyDeleteAs far as them being judgmental not being a real portrayal of a family of Bnei Teyreh; I'm sure the esteemed magazine wouldn't give them a bad rap when they're the type of peole they're trying to atrract and keep as readers...
"They make a conscious decision that there's a better way for them to live their lives, not to CH"V leave the fold, but to adopt a different way of serving Hashem. They love their parents, spouses, and families, but they choose to live their lives differently. After all, can we really expect that all of our children be exactly the same? I b"h did not have"
ReplyDeleteWould you say the same re someone from a Chassidishe background chosing to become a Litvak ?
Snag
ReplyDeleteof course a Chossid wouldn't be happy, but he definitely wouldn't throw his kid outta the house or worse yet sit Shiva like Snags would.
If you want to know how the story ends, ask someone in Israel; The Hebrew version had like 72 episodes, and finished earlier this year.
ReplyDeleteAs a proud snag, I find the story to be chassidish propaganda. I am willing to give 1000 to 1 odds that the end result is the girl realizes how great chasiduis is etc. Don’t know why you said the Rebbe and his Chassidim look like fools, they looked quite good to me (much better than all the real Rebbes I unfortunately know)
ReplyDeleteI forgot that these things show up in the Hebrew first!
ReplyDeleteI guess you're right Twistelton, they kind of HAVE to make the Chassidim look good.
snag:
ReplyDeletewhen you find me someone who was brought up in a Chassidishe atmosphere, and wants to become a snag, then i'll think abt. what i would say, until then, have a good night, and may we greet Moshiach together, speedily in our days!!!
It sounds to me a bit like the story of the Alter Rebbe, and what he suffered from his shver—and especially from his shvigger—when he became a chossid.
ReplyDeleteTwistleton - right on.
ReplyDeleteThe theme of such stories in general is how 'tolerance' wins out over principle.
HT - "of course a Chossid wouldn't be happy, but he definitely wouldn't throw his kid outta the house or worse yet sit Shiva like Snags would."
Come on....
"Anonymous said...
snag:
when you find me someone who was brought up in a Chassidishe atmosphere, and wants to become a snag, then i'll think abt."
You make it sound like such a thing has never happened. Is denying reality the way you deal with things you don't like ?
You cannot imagine something away just because it doesn't fit in with your propaganda.
much better than all the real Rebbes I unfortunately know
ReplyDeleteobviously not real rebbes at all....
Snag
ReplyDeletedon't "come on" me. Fact is that Snags and Satmarer sit Shiva on kids that become Lubavitchers (maybe not anymore) but Lubavitchers, with all their disdain for Snags, never considered their kids dead if he went to Slabodka or Telz.
tzig
ReplyDeletei think its best put when said
"moshiach is going to have to be a 'sang"
if he were to be a chussid the 'snags would not come along.but a lubob will take any moshiach he can get.
G-d over politics
Hirshel Tzig said...
ReplyDeleteSnag
don't "come on" me. Fact is that Snags and Satmarer sit Shiva on kids that become Lubavitchers (maybe not anymore) but Lubavitchers, with all their disdain for Snags, never considered their kids dead if he went to Slabodka or Telz.
what about satmar etc.?
Obviously you are admitting to the truth about the yeshiva world!!
Bottom line vilst kennen lernen? go to where it's at!
Where did I "admit" to anything of the kind? all Isaid was that when Lubavitcher kids went to Slabodka or Telz or wherever nobody sat Shiva. I said nothing about kennen lernen.
ReplyDeleteWhy I dont like the stupid story (that I stopped reading around installment 2,000):
ReplyDeleteKurt Vonnegut's stated rules for short story writing:
1. Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted.
2. Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.
3. Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.
4. Every sentence must do one of two things -- reveal character or advance the action.
5. Start as close to the end as possible.
6. Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them -- in order that the reader may see what they are made of.
7. Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia.
8. Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To heck with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.
"Fact is that Snags and Satmarer sit Shiva on kids that become Lubavitchers (maybe not anymore)"
ReplyDeleteHow many such cases do you know of personally with identifying confirmable details ?
Documentation ?
Hearsay ? Lubavitcher myth ?
Amshinover - that's what the Lubavitchers said in the old days -that Moshiach will be a snag. But then they changed their tune when they started promoting their nosi for that position. Or was the Rebbe a secret snag underneath ???
I think it is obvious that no Lubavitcher would accept a Satmerer chossid as Moshiach. God is not over politics for them.
ReplyDeleteI would also add that I hail from a Chassidish family and that I dropped Chassidus a while ago. While I respect the few who I have seen have reached great heights in the avodas Hashem, my soul resonates better with the learning, hashkafa, mussar, and love of ameilus and amkus in Torah of the Litvishe world. There are those who have embraced both worlds--I would say Rav Gedalia Schorr did this as he learned like the greatest Litvak learned but was completely Chassidish in Hashkavos and Hasagos--but I am more comfortable with the whole picture.
I don't think there is anything offensive in my saying this.
"It is of course always easier to be a Chossid of a Rebbe who is not there."
What does this say about Lubavitchers today?
>What does this say about Lubavitchers today?
ReplyDeleteWell, one friend raised in Chabad has said that he doesn't consider himself a Chabad chossid because he never had a personal relationship with the Rebbe. He still keeps most of their minhoggim, and seems to hold the Chabad system to be true.
Meanwhile, thousands of people consider themselves Chabad chassidim today who never met the Rebbe, who either grew up in Chabad or entered the movement after 5752, which was, after all, 15 years ago now. Chabad is booming, far more than when the Rebbe was around.
What that says about today's Lubavitchers indeed.
It says that they are chassidim to a Rebbe they never knew--a notion to which the apikorus, Hmmmm, found vexing. That was my intention. We don't need to deal with sonei Lubavitch kindly.
ReplyDeleteBeing a Chosid of a Rebbe you do not is a problem? Are all Breslover Chassidim and all GrOniks also problematic?
ReplyDeleteAnd stop with the Apikores talk, please, it's nothing but childish.
Tzig, I was asking the same question to Hmmm who originally implied there is something wrong with that!!! He is an apikorus if he writes badly about Lubavitch!!!
ReplyDeleteFinally, the Groniks, if there really can be a group who can be classified as such, are not chassidim, to say the least. Followers of minhagim or certain leaders are not chassidim. Chassidus and the function of a Rebbe entails far more than that,
You can't place any value in a story written by a simple woman who never had a clue on how to write. She's not a writer and would say so herself other than to put down on paper the jumble of thoughts that come to her mind. She couldn't tell you next weeks installment because she hasn't htought of it yet.
ReplyDeleteHonest to God - this is not some nefarious plot by Mishpachah - it's the whimsicals musings of a simple woman.
Re:R'Shlomo,
ReplyDeletePeople have different taste, but I think that if a poll was taken R'Shlomo would win hands down,I myself have caught the most souless snags, the exact opposite of Shloyme, farbrenging on his tunes.
-----------------------------
In that case I guess Yossi Green is an even greater Rebbe than Carlebach.
Yosef
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you "dropped" Chassidus, but I would guess - based on your comments - that the Chassidus you were exposed to was in name only, or dress only. I don't think you delved into Toras HaChassidus, otherwise you wouldn't have left. Besides, the Torah was not given in Vilna or Kelm, or Slabodka last time I checked.
Yossi Green is gevaldig,BUT, not R'Shloiymeh!
ReplyDeleteTzig, you probably know that noSatmar or Snags sat shiva on kids who became Lubavitch, so why would you as a Chabad chosid vos mont emmes, promote such a lie??
I don't know if R'Shloymeh Eiger, R'Akiva Eigers son sat shiva when his son R'Leibelh became a chosid, but he was not happy at all,HOWEVER, that happened a little less than two hundred years ago!
Lets be current, won't we??
You don't know Yosef, do you??
ReplyDeleteSo why would you jump to conclusions?>(besides for your circular logic:You have decided that had Yosef delved into toras hachassidus he would not have left, hence he was only a chusid in name.Your first 'hanocho' is your assumption, which you are allowed of course, but don't expect logical people to accept it.Reminds me what some Lubavitcher say:The Rebbe is moshiach because he implied/said so..(I don't know if the Rebbe said so, I'm just using this as an example that I've seen, according to some Lubavitcher who so understood the Rebbe)But, guys, that is circular, you won't win over a sceptic by saying that since The Rebbe said so, it must be so....
"It is of course always easier to be a Chossid of a Rebbe who is not there." What does this say about Lubavitchers today? "
ReplyDeleteWhat this says is that besides for the Avodah that we have always had of Darkei HaChasidus, additionally we must monitor ourselves now for this instict to try to reintepret the Rebbe in our own light, and not based on his Torah. I say it LeShvach - we jump an extra hurdle. Certain post Gimmel Tammuz interpretations do not.
anonymous 6:05
ReplyDeleteI did say "I guess," right? so we know that I assume. It's - Lehavdil - like a young unaffiliated Jew who leaves Yiddishkeit for some Eastern "religion." We can safely assume that he knew nothing about his religion even though we don't him personally, simply because Yiddishkeit has everything to offer. If he decides that it did not "speak to him" do we say ch"v that Torah is bankrupt? of course not. Same here, although I'm not Chas Vesholom comparing Mussar to some guru-lead cult, but Chassidus does have it all.
HT, I don't want to overburden you, so won't ask you to provide a long list, since you are a busy guy, but at least give us some info.
ReplyDelete1) How many snags have become Lubavitchers since 1951 ?
2) How many cases can you name and document of their bereaved snag parents sitting shiva ?
Maybe that Shoproner guy can help us out, he was talking about Shivah here a while back.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a number, sorry. But I do know parents who didn't speak to their children for YEARS after they went to Lubavitch.
1) How many snags have become Lubavitchers since 1951 ?
ReplyDelete--------------------------
Want a list? Especially including some Chabad shluchim, mechanchim and activists in Eretz Yisroel? It would probably exceed the limits of the comment box,
So now we're going to science of spouting statistics again with no basis to them? No one has numbers for anything, no one. No one knows how many have dropped out of which group, no one knows how many aveiros are committed in each community and what kind, no one knows who has left what or joined what.
ReplyDeleteTzig
ReplyDeleteI though you had a shtickel seichel.Do you believe that anybody sat shiva on a member of the family that became Lubavitch, no, right?So why are you promoting the lie?
The anti semites are also right, one in a hundred cases, does that make the general statements about Jews true??
Please, bring the discussion here to a mature level, you know well enough that if parents and kids did not talk ater one became Lubab it's because one of the parties was seriously messed up, nothing to do with their conversion
>>I'm sorry you "dropped" Chassidus, but I would guess - based on your comments - that the Chassidus you were exposed to was in name only, or dress only. I don't think you delved into Toras HaChassidus, otherwise you wouldn't have left. Besides, the Torah was not given in Vilna or Kelm, or Slabodka last time I checked.
ReplyDeleteI delved deeply into Chassidus. I learned the entire Noam Elimelech, Kidushas Levi, Yismach Moshe, and a lot of R' Tzadok and Torah from the Izhbitzer. My soul resonates better with the Torah of the Gaon, though--which, I think, is actually a lot deeper.
I would add that the gedolei Torah of the Torah world never maintained that mattan torah was in Vilna or Kelm, nor that their Torah is the pnimius of Torah. The Rebbe--and others--however, maintained that Chassidus is the pnimius of Torah. They are the ones who are saying wrong things not, chalilah, the other way.
>>I did say "I guess," right? so we know that I assume. It's - Lehavdil - like a young unaffiliated Jew who leaves Yiddishkeit for some Eastern "religion." We can safely assume that he knew nothing about his religion even though we don't him personally, simply because Yiddishkeit has everything to offer. If he decides that it did not "speak to him" do we say ch"v that Torah is bankrupt? of course not. Same here, although I'm not Chas Vesholom comparing Mussar to some guru-lead cult, but Chassidus does have it all.
It sounds like you are making that comparison. As someone who lived, breathed, and learned all of the classical Chassidish seforim (I even went through a lot of Tanya) I maintain that Chassidus does NOT have it all--and this especially relevant to the introspective aspect of the Mussar of Kelm. It is clear from your writings that you are not familiar with anything on the other side. At least have the courtesy to write like I do--that your soul resonates better with Chassidus. Don't make asinine assumptions about what you know so little about.
Yosef
ReplyDeleteYou lost me with the Kelmer comparison, I actually can't believe you think that Mussar of Kelm is deeper than Chassidus. You're the one assuming that I know nothing, I guess cuz I'm a Lubavitcher, right?
Rav Dessler can attest to you all that there is what to be had from both schools of thought (michtav meliyahu) the reson is because ultimitely it arrives at the same destination (and their principles are similar just in different sets of clothing)
ReplyDeleteIt's true that Rav D took from both schools of thought, but I have to believe that had he lived for more than his sixty something years he would've turned towards Chassidus more and more. I base that on his increased interest in Chassidus in his later years.
ReplyDeleteTzig
ReplyDeleteYosef challenged you.Did you learn Mussar seforim or not?Answer.
Something about your preaching and jumping to circular logic conclusions is turning me off.The readers of this blog are mostly yeshiva educated, don't make us work with half our brain so we can lower the level to understand.Don't preach to us like we are frayeh students coming for a taste of your version of Yiddishkait.
Btw regarding the Rebbes torehs:I'm underwhelmed, sai nigleh sai the chasidus.Pretty simple ideas are rehashed over way to many pages.Go try and learn a bit of R'Tzodok and come back to me if you see any comparison
Never before in the history of Oilam Hatorah has one person had so many works published, with such a small influence on lomdei torah.
ReplyDeleteHow many books of the Rebbe toirehs have been published,two hundred, three hundred??
How often, outside of Lubavitch is he quoted??Very seldom, or not at all.Why??Because everybody besides Lubavitch are 'haters'?Maybe.But one sec...If he is Nosi Hadeyr, than his teachings would be accepted by ALL JEWS,no(or most at least)?All frum Jews at least,no?
Than what gives??I don't get it.Is this A Nosi Hadeyr of only Lubavitch??Are there no other Jews?
Small example:The Rebbe ruled that one should not use the words 'me'orasim' when announcing an engagement, rather 'bo'u bekishrei shiduchim'.Let me explain a sec:In the chareidi world in Eretz Yisroel, the first thing a chareidi guy (or yiddaneh)does in the morning is check the Chareid newspapers Hamodia or Yated for the 'just engaged' announcements, this is a very important bit of news to know who just made a shiduch.The classic way of announcing the news is paying for a small ad announcing that plony is 'me'oras' to ploinisteh.The Rebbe held that that wordage is objectionable halachikally (to be honest I don't know why...must be some chashash kiddushin:Halachikally 'me'oras' is real kidushin, however in modern Hebrew 'ME'ORAS' means 'engaged')The bottom line is:The only ones who follow this ruling are LUBAVITCHERS,none others.I don't know the Rebbes rationale as I mentioned, my point is that a Nosi Hadeyr, that nobody follows is a nosi hadeyr in 'chaleimeys'.How have they decided that someone that the Torah world , chasidim and Lutvack did not take seriously is Nosi Hadeys and Moshiach is beyond me.
zesha, we rarely get to see a run on post with so little to make sense of unless CAPS LOCK is commenting. Nosi Hador is an element of Ruchnius, and can be seen in reality in the fact that the Rebbe cared for - actively - every Jew, even those who place ads in Hamodia.
ReplyDeleteHmmm
ReplyDeleteSo you can have a Nosi Hador 'in ruchniyus' though most shomrei mitvos do not consider him as such?
You can have a G-d of the Jews although the vast majority of Jews do not consider him as such.
ReplyDeleteOh, so now your Rebbe is 'G-d of the Jews'?
ReplyDeleteWhatever you meant by the above comment, hopefully you did not mean your Rebbe.Regarding a King, who in heaven made your Rebbe,Nosi?
In the times of the nevi'im Hashem told the novi who to annoint, after that period the only way to become Nosi/King is if one is accepted.Lubavitch accepted thie rebbe as king other Jews did not.With all due respect to the Rebbe, what kind of business is this that you decide for all Jews WHO THEIR LEADER IS?
Reb Motl Zilber once said - meraglim learned well from Moyshe Rabeynu. They mastered the way of avoydo which he taught them. But when the time came to change it, they refused. They were to comfortable with what they were used to. Moyshe Rabeynu on the other hand was a tzadik emes, and he knew the main thing - what Hashem sais has to be done. The avoydo can be one for one day, it can be different for another. But this meraglim failed to fathom.
ReplyDeleteanonymous, that was just plain stupid on your part.
ReplyDelete