Futerfas Family Reunion
(l-r, Reb Avremel Shemtov, Reb Mendel Futerfas, HaRav Yaakov Kamenecki)
In Monsey, probably around 5742-4. Reb Yaakov and Reb Mendel were cousins, RYK's mother or grandmother was a Futerfas. Avremel Shemtov's mother was also a Futerfas, RMF's sister.
Photo: SHTUREM
I wonder if it's OK to stand and be photographed with people you consider heretics just because they may be related. After all, if joining them is considered Shmad then wouldn't original members be considered Goyim? So, is it like having your picture taken with your non-Jewish neighbor or friend, or not exactly? We should forward this Shayleh to one of the Rabbinic authorities of our day. Perhaps the Posek HaDor can answer it.
With all due respect, it is my psak that a group can be rendered possible mushmadim, whearas yechidim who are renowned for their ehrlichkeit would not. Similarly, a group can be regarded as potential medhumadim down the line, but kosher at the time.
ReplyDeleteEither way, the wrong this to do is take this personally. If you do not believe that the Rebbe is god, regardless of the enormous kavod you bestow upon him (as do I), you are not within the group contemplated by RAK or RYK in the statements to which you refer.
The picture says it all. Of course the phrase was meant bederech halozah(humorous).
ReplyDeleteThe Kluizenberger rebbe told his gabboyim upon entering the Gerer BM in Jslm. Lomir geyn zehn dem Peylishen ganev meaning the Gerer rebbe. I hear that Rav Shmuel Levitin had similar sharp words about the Otwock chebvra when they came to the USA. Did the Zaddik of Kluizeneberg mean the Gerer rebbe was a ganev. Choliloh bechas !!! Its all the humor of the east european Jew.
One needs to understand that in the Western White Russian shtetlech Chabad, and Misnagdim lived together and functioned together in a manner that was friendly yet strained. These Jews there all had a sense of humor, The word shmad was a word widely used as a way to portray criticism , like" shmad shtick " etc. It is not to be taken literally.
The picture speaks louder than a story thrice retold !
My grand uncle Reb Yisroel Alperowitz Hayad a simple Lubavitcher baalhaboys once went over to the eylmsher rav of Kurenitz Rav Moshe Aron Feldman HAYAD and told him its a shame that a chazir has such Tore knowledge.The rav slapped him in the face. Well tell me did Reb Yisroel mean that the rav was a chazir ? No this was part of the sharp rivalry maaked in an even sharper humor that marked these Jews both chabad and misnagdim.
A ger is still chayev to honor his birth parents.
ReplyDeleteThe bigger shaylo is, it's known what chazal say "till ten generations, you shouldn't disparage a non-jew in front of a ger", yet here we have a decendent of lubavitchers himself saying such things about lubavitchers, and it's nowhere near 10 generations.
YONAH
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying that for us. I guess I would need to come before a Beis Din and lay out my beliefs to them. Only then will I be certified as a believing Jew....
R Yaakov gave a pilpul to one of the Koveztim lekavod the Rebbe
ReplyDeleteSchneur, Boruch Shehecheyonu - a very nice post. May you merit many such posts.
ReplyDelete"it is my psak"
I hit the floor laughing. Tzig, he can't be real, you're making this up. Please, at least one such post a day!
>>Thanks for clarifying that for us. I guess I would need to come before a Beis Din and lay out my beliefs to them. Only then will I be certified as a believing Jew....
ReplyDeleteThat is a complete wrangling and misinterpretation of what I wrote. If you do believe the Rebbe is God, you don't have to submit anything to Beis Din, as you are comitting avodei zorah. If you believe him to be the Nosi Hador and one of the greatest tzadikim of the 20th century (like myself), you are not. You know all this. Not a big chiddush.
Hmmm,
ReplyDeleteDespite all your unjustified animus toward Rav Yonah Lazar, I see no justification for being so rude and discourteous. He has said so many good things. Why do you have to be such an ass?
The more I read the blog the happier I am with my decision not to join Lubavitch.During my youth a friend used to learn with R'Segal from Tzemach Tzedek and R'Avtzon from shikkun Chabad (I think)He shlepped me along too,I also spent shabbos in Kfar Chabad and spent time with a Rabbi Ginzberg an Israeli, not the American, I think he totally went of the deep end and writes in Bais Moshiach.It was a time when I was not sure about life and going through the stresses of early adulthood and bad family dynamics.Thank Hashem that I was never comforatble with the tactics that seemed to be brainwashing, plus, I really liked to learn and was vety underwhelmed by their shallow understanding of Tanya and even less serious gemorah studies
ReplyDeletekalman
ReplyDeletehas it ever crossed your mind that we might be happy that you never joined us? After all, you being all into learning and stuff and us just vodka slurpers, you'd ruin our little party............
I liked learning but felt bad that I was not learning enough because of the reasons I mentioned.There was no reason for you to be nasty, but, figures, because that was a thing I picked up there, very little mention of non Lubavitch rebbes or Torah and your blog has reinforced this by badmouthing boatloads of rabbonim and your example of besmirching Rav Kamintesky is yet another example.
ReplyDeleteIn the time I hovered aroung Lubavitch I never really heard the rabbis I had something to do with badmouth yeshiva rabbis, but the underlying theme was Lubavitch is the best.
anon, if they didn't think lubavitch was the best, why the heck would they be there?
ReplyDeleteit is natural for any person belonging to any group to believe that the derech his group offers is the best.
like i said, if its not the best, seek out the best and join them.
"very little mention of non Lubavitch rebbes or Torah"
ReplyDeleteR' Chezkel Besser, during one of the many yechidusin(private audiences) he merited to have with the Rebbe, he told the Rebbe as follows: "I understand/agree with Lubavitch's stance, but there's just one thing that I never understood, whenever I go in to the Rodomsker BM,there are Rodomsker seforim, but other seforim as well, but when I go to Lubavitch, all i see is Sifrei Chabad!" The Rebbe's response: "When doctor's first discovered anti-biotics, they first used a tiny bit of it and mixed it with the other already tested medicines, as time went on & ppls. immune systems got used to a minimal amnt., they had to increas the amountthey added to the medicines, until today, the content is abt. 95-100% anti biotics,so too with Chabad, originally, Chassidim were able to stay,with just bits ofChabad Chassidus blended with already used Chassidus, but today, due to our low level, we need 100% Chabad Chassidus!!!"
Kalman
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Lube, but don't knock Rav Avtzon. The man is a tzaddik by any standards. And he knows something about learning.
a different anonymous
>>kalman
ReplyDeletehas it ever crossed your mind that we might be happy that you never joined us? After all, you being all into learning and stuff and us just vodka slurpers, you'd ruin our little party............
I am Lubavitch, and my family has been Lubavitch since the days of the Alter Rebbe, and I have to say that comments like the one above are deeply inappropriate and nasty. If someone finds greater satisfaction in learning somewhere else, let him. Why always be on the offensive? The same goes for the nastiness of hmmm, trying to find it funny when a qualified rav comments on an a halachic matter and calls it a psak. Unless Hmmm laughs to himself when he reads a dictionary, he is not justified in continuously being mevayesh Rabbonim and others on every single thread on this blog. It is pathetic.
Vifil iz di sheer od being nice and turning the other cheek? Why should a nasty comment like his get anything BUT a sarcastic answer like that?
ReplyDeleteI'm really disappointed at the very low level of discussion offered in the comments section of this blog. Woe is Am Yisroel when so many foolish people speak their perverse sinas chinom, loshon horo, motzei sheim ro, leitzonus and general trash talk. The author of this much-loved blog has sadly stooped to these lows as well.
ReplyDelete"Venishmarten Meod es Nafshoseichem"
tell me exactly what bothered you in this post? I mean what I wrote, I can't help what the comments are like.
ReplyDeleteWell, for starters you were badmouthing R'Yakov.Is that not a problem in your circles?
ReplyDeleteI know, you were trying to make a point.......just like all the badmouthers who are only doing it with the 'best' intentions....
You also seem to be taking a stab at Posek Hador (which, I believe you mean a famous rov in Eretz Yisroel)
ReplyDeleteLook, I honestly don't expect better, but don't say you don't know what's wrong with the post..
I'm the original "anonymous" writer of 1:51. What bothers me is not the post at all - indeed the point you make is perceptive and clear - rather the leitzonusdikke comments made by Kalman. They're not worthy of response, least of all by the Baal Hablog. And even if they're ridiculously silly and childish, I'd expect more from Hirshel than to respond in equally silly manner. Just keep shtum when you get silly comments and hopefully the trash will evaporate to reveal only thoughtful, informative, interesting and calmly-presented comments of quality.
ReplyDeletePS:Many other blogs have this problem of trashy comments. But in many, the baal hablog has the seichel not to answer to the fools. I know you do too.
Rabbi Simcha Werner who is the Rebbe's shliach in Monsey for many years, had a nice relationship with RYK. RYK did not treat him as a Meshumad C"V. also Rabbi Mordechai Shain who was something like a ben Bayis to RYK told over that RYK would from time to time listen to the Rebbe's farbrengins on the Radio (WEVD). I’m not saying he would listen as a mekabel, he may have done so just to hear the Rebbe's views. But nevertheless he listened, and I don't think he would have listened to anything affiliated with "Shmad".
ReplyDeleteIn shita he was probably a misnaged but in dealing with people I would say not. Not to the extent of considering them Meshumadim. He was smarter then that.
Someone who would know this for sure, would be R' M. Shain from Monsey.
is Shain the shaliach from Tenafly?
ReplyDeleteSurprised you lube-jobs did not try a different twist.
ReplyDeleteThat would have been: Oh Reb Yackov? Yeah...he had Yechidus with the Rebbe all the time.
Actually, he had a shtarka kesher with mendel the high holy one.
NOT.
Snag 13
ReplyDeletewe can see Takke from your profane sexual references that you were raised in a good snaggy environment. All you need to do is knock Lubavitch, the rest is optional.
jj you just proved a point.
ReplyDeleteLube-jobs are sooooooo perverted, that they can find sexual refrences in every single topic in the world.
my comment had no sexual refrences what so ever, yet you say that it did.
perhaps it was the "mendy" part of the comment.
Anon 7:13,
ReplyDeleteNo. That's his nephew. Mordechai Shain is a brother of Eliyahu Shain the Mohel who resides in Crown Heights, and E. Shain is the father of the one from Tenafl. Mordechai is not a Lubavitcher.
lucky wolf has it right, precisely.
ReplyDelete