(Point of Europa, Gibraltar)
I met a young man of Sefardic extraction from Gibraltar at the Lag BaOmer Parade in Crown Heights, who now lives in New York. He was Niskarev to Lubavitch while learning in Yeshivas Kol Torah in Yerushalayim and came to learn in Lubavitch in "770" later on. The Rebbe personally guided him, and gave him a path of learning to proceed on. He got Semichah (the real kind) from the Roshei Yeshivah of Tomchei Tmimim in 770, as well as from Rav Pinchus Hirshprung zt"l. He later proceeded to receive Heter Horo'oh as well, and had a good future in Rabbonus ahead of him, it seemed. One of the things he was working on becoming the Rov of the community of Gibraltar. Being a local kid helped, and the signs were all pointing towards him getting the job.
Somehow word reached Bene Beraq (I guess with many of the local kids going on to learn in Eretz Yisroel,) that they were looking at him for Rov, and it reached the desk of the Vaboylniker Tzaddik, then serving as Rosh Yeshivah of Ponovezh. Needless to say he was not happy about it, and he succeeded in taking his name off the short list of candidates. The Yungerman was told that he was no longer a candidate. All in the name of Emes and Sholom, I suppose, since he never met the young man, and all he knew was that he was a Chabadsker, but that didn't stop him from passing judgement on him. The true signs of a leader of Klal Yisroel. It got so bad that even his relatives, who identified with the Rosh Yeshivah, were embarrassed to look him in the eyes because of the shame they felt at their cousin being rejected for no good reason other than political ones.
Freg Ich eich, Tayere Yidden, Iz Dos Yosher? Is it OK to destroy the life's work of a Yid, a Ben Torah in anybody's book, just because you may not agree with his Rebbe? What ever happened to taking a Rov for his knowledge of Halochoh and Yiras Shomayim, and not his political affiliation? Is there not a long history of Chassidishe Shtetlach where the only Misnaged was the Rov, and they lived happily ever after? Why must we be frimmer than our ancestors who were known to be petty and fight about every little Kibud, Aliyah, order of Aliyos and so on? If they could overlook a supposed problem like that why couldn't someone who knew that generation quite well, and who knew of many such precedents, allow for a young man who happens to be a Lubavitcher Chossid to be the Rov of a small community untouched by Machlokes?
technically Hirshel, Gibraltar is not very far from Bene Beraq, so in essence his net is not spread that far after all. I mean, Europe is further, not to mention America....
ReplyDelete"Gibraltar is not very far from Bene Beraq...Europe is further"
ReplyDeleteYou'd better stop right there as this comment betrays total Am-hArtzuskeit. Can you even find Bene Beraq and Gibraltar on a map!?
(Bli Shum Sarcacism) - please explain what you mean by "semichah (the real kind)". Thank you.
ReplyDeleteWhat became of him in the end? (I mean the yungerman, not the tzaddik :-))
ReplyDeleteI guess the real kind would mean years of study, including all Gemorohs, Rishonim, and Achronim. And the tests are tough, very tough.
ReplyDeleteHe works for a living. And is Kovea Itim every free minute he has, in both Nigleh and Chassidus.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why he didn't pursue other Rabbinic positions.
what's the Am HoRatzes here? Isn't Gibraltar at the very bottom of Europe? Isn't BB just a short flight from Gibraltar?
ReplyDeleteOy, the gadlus of the tzaddik: he understood that a community that listens to him doesn't deserve a special yungerman like your friend
ReplyDelete"what's the Am HoRatzes here? Isn't Gibraltar at the very bottom of Europe? Isn't BB just a short flight from Gibraltar?"
ReplyDeleteDigging yourself even deeper. Tsk! Tsk!
Gibraltar is at the westernmost point of the Mediterranean Sea. Bene Beraq (let's say Tel Aviv) is at the easternmost point. They are 2309 miles apart. Meanwhile Tel Aviv to Paris, France is 2043 mi. Frankfurt, Germany is 1837 mi, Rome, Italy is 1418 mi. Even London, a big "European" city beyond the continent (England is an island) is closer at 2233 mi.
So, no. Just about all of Europe is closer to Bene Beraq than Gibraltar. Couple that with the sparseness of GIB's Jewish population (even moreso its frum community) and you can understand HT's quizzical response.
Avremel made that statement, not me. But I was surprised to see that Gibraltar was so far. No need to get so personal over geography here. What does the fact that Gib has so few Jews have to do with the point of the post?
ReplyDelete"What does the fact that Gib has so few Jews have to do with the point of the post? "
ReplyDeleteProbably not much. I will admit that it is my own spin on the story. In the grand scheme of things, however, it is amazing the concern of certain powerful politicians to make sure far flung, seemingly insignificant (but obviously Jewishly healty given their representation in both Yeshivish and Chassidishe yeshivos) places are Lubie-free.
"Is there not a long history of Chassidishe Shtetlach where the only Misnaged was the Rov, and they lived happily ever after?"
ReplyDeletePlease elaborate on that history. How many examples can you name ? There is one famous case, however, there it was because the Rav there saved the AR (how often do you snag haters blog about that by the way, about how a snag saved the AR ?).
The guy could be a shliach, but מורנו הגה"צ מוואבוילניק זצוק"ל זי"ע ועכי"א, ברוח קדשו ובאור תורתו saw the michshaylim that could come out from him becoming the moro deasre and expressed his daas kaydesh and saved this edah from a takoloh,ר"ל.
אשרי הדור והעדה שכּכה לו, שיש לו מנהיג גדול כזה, אוי לה לספינה שאבדה קברניטה.....
Moreinu zt"l didn't have authority in Gibraltar, but he did evidently have hashpo'oh there. He didn't and couldn't force people there to listen to him, rather they were smart enough to realize that it would be for their own good to heed the daas Tayreh of אותו גאון וצדיק,חבל על דאבדין......
It is well know that Rav Chaim Ozer vetoed the candidacy of the Chavteles Hasharon (known as the Tarnoploa Rov) for Rov of Yerushlayim with the explanation that ‘ He is worthy, but the Belzer Rebbe (his Rebbe) isn’t’. Told to me by a nephew. As an aside, if Chabad was not so insistent in promoting their ideology, people would not have such an issue with a Chabad Rov etc. I don’t think this is the same as objecting to a Vishnitzer chossid being Rov. Whether wrong or right, part of the Lubavitcher shita is that everyone should become Lubavitch. Very aggressively so. I am aware of Shuls out of town where the new Lubavitcher Rov tried to turn the shul into a Chabad center, including changing minhagim etc over the objections of many members.
ReplyDeleteSnag - 2:41
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned everything but the point of the post. You sure live up to your name.
Nice rewriting of history by Heshy.
ReplyDelete'Is there not a long history of Chassidishe Shtetlach where the only Misnaged was the Rov'
Well, Heshy, is there?
Make it easy for me, I'm not a such a big 'yada'n' in Jewish history, but, please point out a number of such places, won't you??
Now to some hair splitting:You say he got 'the real kind of semicha' from the Roshei yeshiva of 770 and Rav Hirshprung.See, here you go again with your logic-With all due respect to these types of semichas, they are generally run of the mill, almost every Lubavitcher bocher gets these 'quickie' semichos.I don't know the guy, maybe he is a giant talmid chochom, but I see no proof from such semichas.Thousands of guys hold such semichas.
Last, but not least,Lubavitch has a tendency, indeed a mitzva of
'hafotzas hamaayonos', there 'maayonos' so even if this guy is indeed a ben aliyah, it is not unreasonable if kehillas choose not to have such a 'missionary' in their midst.Would Lubab take a Breslever rov for example?
This story is too good to be true. Keep em coming, Tzig.
ReplyDelete"What ever happened to taking a Rov for his knowledge of Halochoh and Yiras Shomayim, and not his political affiliation?"
ReplyDeleteChabad is not a 'political affiliation' to most other Jews, Chabad is virtually another religion. They have their own holidays, their own unique customs, their own derech, their own machshava system, and consider all of the above to be superior and to supercede all others. Worse, they believe in things which others consider very objectionable.
That is why he was rejected.
It may bother you that this is so, but why make believe that it has to do with politics when you know very well the real reason?
anonyomous/Yona/Snag/Shoproner/whoever you are:
ReplyDeleteThe same can be said for Bnei Brak and Ponovezh.
di heilige Reb Chaim Brisker's son, Reb Moshe Soloveitchik z"l was Rov in Chaslavitch, a Chassidishe (Lubavitcher) shtetl.
ReplyDeleteah freilichen shabbos yidden!
merkas rabonei iropa (gorelik) had a very interesting article on the jewish community in gibraltar a few months ago.
ReplyDeleteseems like a very interesting community.
I don't get this post....how can you make such sweeping and hateful statments of the Rov in Bnei Barak and the Gibraltar Jewish community based on a single conversation...this is nonesense. Perhaps this fellow has an axe to grind. if he was that committed to the Gib com. why not move back and live there? If he is as highly skilled as presented, why was he unable to find another community to preside over (did the unmentionable one in Bnei Baraq state that he was not allowed to be a Rabbi Anywhere?)
ReplyDeleteThis is just another stunt by you to portray Chabad as he 'underdog' and the big bad mean Litvak community as some 'monster'....funnily enough this is the current Palestinian tacitc.
Also, please be aware that the Gib com has a strong a ffiliation with a wide range of organised Jewish groups.... I know of the community inviting distinguished Rabbonim from Israel and Europe to speak there...I personally know of a Dayan on the London Bais Din (2.5 yrs ago who went)...I don't know of many Chabad rabbonim who are invited....maybe this is an CLEAR example of the London Bais Din and oher non Chabad groups influencing the Gib com not to associate with 'Evil' Chabad......
HT wrote "di heilige Reb Chaim Brisker's son, Reb Moshe Soloveitchik z"l was Rov in Chaslavitch, a Chassidishe (Lubavitcher) shtetl."
ReplyDeleteYes but this was clearly the ONE case that Snag was referring to in his post of 2:41, as that was a reward for the Misnaged Rov saveing the Alter Rebbes life.
As an aside HT, do you realy think Chabad would take a Litvish Rov in any position of prominance today? Can you name any?
Heshy
ReplyDeleteWith every one of your hateful posts you are taking your self respect down notch by notch.
Let us analyze you post s-l-ow-l-y.
You (just)met a guy, the other day and proceed to build a whole je accuse. This anonymous guy is telling you the story about what a 'special' and 'real' semicha he got and how he was turned down 'just' for being a Lubavitcher.So:About the semicha:Run of the mill kind that hundreds of boys who went through 770 got.Turned down 'just' because he was a Lubavitcher:Do you think this kind of story passes muster?Do you think we should believe that your unnamed guy is being objective?Do you not agree that 'odom koroiv etsel atsmoi' and is therefore not to be relied upon?
'Eloh mai'? In your zeal to pour garbage on a respected leader, you will use any 'gebebteh' mayseh to preach to your choir, which does not seem to be very discerning, see how happy Hmmm was with this mayseh.
As in the previous mayseh with R'Yaakov, only after 'twisting' your hand behind your back was I able to elicit a 'moideh bemiktsas', that the middle-aged-guy who told the story was in essence badmouthing her (you agreed, that she would not be 'thrilled' by what her tachsheet had to say about her, and hopefully we both agree that kibud ov vo'em also applies to a Snag mom and also applies to stuff you mildly called 'would not be very happy, reading about herself')
B'kitser, it seems that in your eyes and (hopefully only some)in Lubavitch , it is Lubavitch ubber alles, by any means, loshon horah, rechilus , bizyon of parents make the point that Lubavitch
'iz besser'.Sorry, for me you are making just the opposite point.
Btw, in your one (!)example of a Lubavitch shteytel taking a misnaged rov you have a very similar experience in Benei Brak with Rabbi Yaakov Landau a Lubavitcher chosid.Yeah,I know that Bnei Brak was not an only Litvishe town but at the time Rav Landau took on the position, the Chazon Ish was revered in such a way that nobody would dare be memaneh a rov that he was not maskim too.So you have an example from a hundred years ago and I'm giving you a relatively recent one.
ReplyDelete(For the sake of historical accuracy, I think Rav Landau never got the official shtelleh, it 'grew' on him so to speak.I don't know the details, but someone else was rov, and Rav Landau filled in while he was away, later on he was accepted and well respected by everyone)
"Is it OK to destroy the life's work of a Yid, a Ben Torah in anybody's book, just because you may not agree with his Rebbe?"
ReplyDeleteAre you kidding me? You're the one who posts critically about every and anyone you disagree with and you're making this statement?
freg ich dir - is it right to criticize honest makervim and their organizations just because you're too lazy to research their accomplishments?
In conflicts over a rabbinical position, there are and were always 2 zedadim. Here we heard only 1 side . And it was well presented. Before we pass judgement we should hear from the other side. Here are some cogent questions we need to consider before and if) final judgement is passed.
ReplyDelete1. Perhaps the Jews of Gibralter (4 shuls !) were worried that a Chabad rabbi would tamper with their nusach and minhogim.I have seen that in shuls where the people are all Nusach ashkenaz and the rav is a Chabad person.
2. Perhaps the then rabbi had another candidate in mind to suceed him when he left the position.
3. Perhaps the conventional wisdom of "ein Navi Bi-iro" was at work here. Even in Russia and Poland it was hard for a native of a town to come back to the town as a rav after all the people knew him as a baby and child , and many prefered not to have such a man it was not a maale but a chisaron. Thus rav Shmuel Mohiliver was a great exception he was born in Gluboke and later became its rav.
4. In rabbanuth not all that seems natural is what eventually caries the day.
And I must add that Chabad itself has been involved in instances where they were on the side of taking away the rabbanuth from a "natural" candidtae like in Zefas . (I won't mention names because the chabad rav is in olam haemes).
Finally I find it remakable that the Yungerman you mention just did not settle in Gibralter and become a marbitz Tora there either as a teacher or opening up a Chabad house.
Lets keep an open mind and hear both sides !
Di Heilige shtut Brisk had more chasidim then snags (since most of the snags friet out)and the Solovichigs had a great relationship with them, there was even a Chernobler einikel living in brisk having his own hoif,
ReplyDeleteKodiniv had alot chasidim in brisk too, I heard that Reb Moshe Fienstiens fanily is from that crowd.
Schneour
ReplyDeleteI generally have respect for vast knowledge but I have found my self disagreeing a bit with you lately.You blew me away when you were quite positive about Shoulson, a really vile menuval, and here with this quote :''Here we heard only 1 side . And it was well presented.''
Tell me , yedidi, Tzig meeting a guy for the first time, believing his subjective tale against someone that is Lubavitchs' sworn enemy is considered by you a 'side'!!!??And this crud you call 'well presented'?The only place that would not be ashamed to print such a baseless story is Ponim Chadoshos.
Btw 'ein novi be'iro' is I believe a saying fron the New Testament.
anonymous:
ReplyDeletethis guy, despite being snubbed by the Bene Beraqers, is by no means a hater, and he didn't offer the story to me. He was introduced by a mutual friend who told him to tell the story. He has very close family ties, even now, to the Yeshivishe community where he lives. I would say more but that would probably disclose too much and compromise his anonymity.
He also mentioned how his own relations in Gibraltar were embarrassed that he was snubbed for no good reason. But it was out of their hands.
Heshy,
ReplyDeleteYou may be a nice guy in person, you may even be a smart guy, again in person,BUT, big, but, what is this crud you are trying to sell?
Vieder, vayter the same bobkes? And you 'try' to prove the story, because he was introduced to you, by a guy who told him to tell you the mayseh.Wowee! does that make it more c-r-e-d-i-b-l-e??(Was it the same guy who told you the mayseh with his mom)
Listen, you have to know at least this much:YOU ARE NOT -O-B-J-E-C-T-V-E when it comes to Lubavitch, therefore, try and back up stories so that they should sound credible.Anonymous stories from people who have an axe to grind are worthless!(for thinking people that is, maybe some of your shleppers here love them).
I'm not Lubavitch in fact I am very critical of Lubavitch, nonetheless, I have never accepted anonymous stories from Lubavitch haters as anything remotely close to truth.Is it such a big deal to expect that you raise your level of maturity just a wee bit?
Yes Ein Navi beiro is from the NT . I debated whether to use it , but I have seen it used in Midarshim etc and achronim , so its a conventional wisdom that has passed on beyond the point of being Goyish.
ReplyDeleteIf I ofended anyone by that I am sorry, because usually I am makpid not to quote or use sources dealing with that religion.
In general Koidenov was centered further north in the MInsk area.
ReplyDeleteIn volume 1 of the new bio of the Brisker rav Reb velvele there is a lsit of shuls in brisk and there are even Kotzker minyonim. The lower clergy seemed to be msotly Chassidic.
Brisk geographically was not really lithuania evne though it was called Brisk D'Lita as it was clsoer to Vohlyn , Thus there were Peylishe chassidim, Ukranian chassidima nd Lithuanian Jews like other large cities like Lomzha and Bialistock on the western border of Jewish Lithuania.
Slutzk wher erEb yoshe Ber was rav before Brisk never ahd a chassid sleep over there.
I asked a Gib friend about this story and he confirmed that it's basically true. He didn't know about pressure from Bnei Brak, but he did say that your acquaintance would have been a shoo-in for the job, had last-minute opposition not sprung up because he was a Lubavitcher.
ReplyDeleteHe also said that the rabbi they hired instead of him proved a disappointment, and the community soon regretted hiring him, but he has a lifetime contract and demands a lot of money to leave. Not being local, he didn't know the minhagim and wasn't entirely respectful of them. (Each shul there has its own minhagim.) They also expected the rabbi to act as a community representative in relations with the general population, and it seems that the "new" guy (hardly new by now) didn't see that as part of his job description.
I've seen other communities that, after having a Lubavitcher rov for many years, decide that his replacement should not be a Lubavitcher, and then go through a series of short-term incumbents before ending up with another Lubavitcher after all.
hi,
ReplyDeleteIt happens to be I know the people you are talking about.
Yes, they did not want a local perhaps because being a Lubavitcher was far a way from the local tradition,but , the actual rabbi, is not local, and most people, in and out of the Jewish community, are not happy with him.
He is totally out of "synchrony" with the community, and the local culture but he is being paid a lot of money, and yes, he asks lots and lots more to leave, and drain the local community.
Basically he cares about his money and those who pay him, the rest is just non-existent.
The other rabbi, has his own business, studies Torah, and keeps a low profile.
ReplyDeleteI can see that there is a rich diversity in the blogs I am reading and I am trying to leave some comment whereever I visit.