(Yavneh Girls' High School - Telshe, Lithuania)
You're a Yid from another world, another generation. You managed to survive the horrors of your family and friends being murdered by a coincidence, because you just happened to be away overseas. You become part of a new Yeshivah in the New World. The Yeshivah grows and prospers, and you live to see real Nachas from your Talmidim. A bochur who has been learning in your Yeshivah for quite some time now. He's a good bochur by anybody's standards, learns and davens, keeps the Sidrei HaYeshivah, and is exceptional with his fellow students. He never hurt a fly. (Close to fifty years later this Bochur, now a Zeyde, is still the most Aydel person you'll ever meet.) One day this bochur - let's call him Yankel - comes up to you and tells you that he'd like to travel to City A to see his Rebbe. He's asking for your permission, not "letting you know that he's going." Why does he want to go to his Rebbe? Because his Rebbe is going to sit and talk Divrei Teyreh for 6-7 hours, and sing some Niggunim. Remember that he's not asking to take two days off to travel to a friend's wedding to Hulye and be merry. No, he just wants to hear Teyreh from his Rebbe.
There's only one little problem. For whatever reason you don't like his Rebbe, you think he's weird and maybe outta line with some of his statements. You know he's a great Talmid Chochom and has made it his life's work to bring Jews closer to their father in heaven, but he still can't find favor in your eyes. Maybe it's the fact that you don't like his circles, and maybe it's just him. Either way you just don't care for him. You know that your Talmid is his follower, yet he does nothing that makes him any different than the others. On the contrary, he excels in all that he does, and all with no fanfare, never making much of himself. Now that this young man comes to you and kindly asks your permission for a day off you're greeted with sort of a dilemna. Do you allow him to go and be inspired to improve his studies, knowing that he's in "good hands," or do you forbid him to go because of petty differences you may have with his Rebbe; something you knew when you accepted this young man into your school?
This made me recall a similar story in R' Kowalsky's book "From My Zaidy's House" where he asks permission to greet the Previous Rebbe on his arrival to America....
ReplyDeleteInstead of "you be the judge" maybe title it "you be the rosh hayeshiva"
ReplyDelete:-)
Tzig, you really get a rise out of chumming the water with snag bait, don't you? ;-)
ReplyDeleteIf I felt strogly that it would not be healthy for this bochur to get "caught up" in that Rebbe, and if I cared about the bochur as a father cares about his son (which is how the Torah tells us that we must relate to our talmidim), then I would try to persuade him not to go.
ReplyDeleteAlthough visiting certain tzadikim can lift you up from your surroundings, etc, (as I have heard eltere chassidim describing the first time that they visited their rebbe) this doesn't automatically apply to all people that call themselves Rebbes, nor does it apply at all times.
Friendly:
ReplyDeletefinally! somebody actually addressed the question at hand. I hear you loud and clear. Now we just need to hear the answer.....
Rav Shach resigned as Rosh yeshiva in Lunietz in the Stoliner yeshiva when all the talmidim left the place to go see the rebbe (of course without reshus).
ReplyDeleteBy the way why did rav Gustman the Vilna dayan resign from TTL when the 7th rebbe assumed the position?
He was pushed out by a bunch of idiots.
ReplyDeleteThe story in Lunenetz was over a Shavuos. The Bochurim would miss a week of Yeshivah, and the Rosh Yeshivah was of the opinion that on Shavuous, Zman Matan Toroseinu the place for a Bochur is in a Mokom Torah. He didn't throw out all the Bochurim - not that doing it would've helped, he was only an employee - he just left. Remember that they had gone against his wishes. Here the Bochur would've missed 2 days - weekdays.
ReplyDeleteThe answer is the 'evil' rosh yeshiva did not allow.
ReplyDeleteFolks this blog is only about causing sinah and machlokess, that's why this guy always brings up fifth hand stories about various rabbonim.Remember the 'story' he told us about a guy, who turns at had a terrible relationship with his mom and used a story like this to turn his mom into a 'rashanteh'
I say check the Tzigs relationship with his folks, there may be some baggage there.
Of some relevance; When one of the first Telsher talmidim in America asked permission to leave for HIS SISTERS WEDDING, it was not readily forthcoming. In Europe there was no such idea of all out of town siblings attending the wedding, and the Telsher Rosh Yeshiva didn’t really see why the US should be any different. They took the concept of staying in Yeshiva a lot more seriously than we do today!!! (Even 15 years ago when my SIL got married, my single BIL learning in EY did not come to the wedding).
ReplyDeleteBTW, what is the story with Rav Gustman leaving Lubavitch? Anyone care to post about it?
ReplyDeleteanonymous 3:12
ReplyDeleteYou're a two-bit wannabe quack shrink who wouldn't know his elbow from his a--.
You're wrong about the RY's answer too.
I don't know much about the departure of Rav Gustman z"l. All I know is that he left in 5710 or thereabout. (Maybe Berl, CH can help us out?) He did have a Yeshivah in Crown Heights for many years before leaving to E Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteI agree that I'm a wannabee shrink.
ReplyDeleteThe reason it was just a suggestion is because I don't know you well enough.....
However, your not knowing this real story or even beeing where your sinah tales took place never stops you.
Keep up the fifth hand stories (and tell your friend to get help and get over having a controlling mom)
Twisty, I will give you both sides of the story:
ReplyDeleteA) (the one I believe) Most of the better mashpiim of Lubavitch were lost in Siberia and WWII. Those that did make it to take their position in NY were perhaps of even less caliber (Nissen Nemenov, Chaim Shaul Bruk, Shlomo Chaim, did not come to NY). They were jealous or intimidated by Rabbi Gustman's incredible ability to get the bochurim to learn nigleh, as opposed to their efforts in chasidus, and raised a hue and cry about Misnagdishe influence etc.
B) The choshuve Mashpiim of 770 wisely realized the pernicious influence of a Litvak and wanted him removed. This resulted in a publicized Yechidus, in which Itche Groner claims the Rebbe told him denigrating things about Misnagdim, encouraging the decision to have R. Gustman leave.
Grist for all mills here :-).
What is the point of this blog besides sinas chinam?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the point of the internet besides sinash chinam?
ReplyDeleteWhen one of the first Telsher talmidim in America asked permission to leave for HIS SISTERS WEDDING, it was not readily forthcoming.
ReplyDeleteIt was the same in TTL. When R Mendel Futerfas's sister got married in 1928, he was denied permission to go to the wedding. (As he told the story it was R Chatche Feigin who didn't let him go, but that's not possible, because by the date of this wedding RCF was no longer in the USSR.)
Hmmmm,
ReplyDeleteI have no problem believing that either version is true. But didn't it require the Rebbes approval to remove him? So I guess if you a Lubavitcher chosid isn’t is the right decision made by a navi etc. But come to think of it, didn’t the Rebbe decide to hire him? So isn’t complaining about that decision being Cholek on a navi etc? Or if not a Navi, at least someone who can never make a mistake etc? Please explain
Before you get on with the story, let us set one fact straight.
ReplyDeleteThe differences most Roshei Yeshiva had with this Rebbe were not "petty." They were extremely substantive. It was not until I read the Rebbe's forced reading of a Gemara (and a wild, unsupported assertion that chassidus is the pnimus of Torah) to support Yoel Kahan's irreverant remarks concerning the Chazon Ish (as opposed to making sholom, and censuring him for his ignorant remark) that I started to see their perspective. The Rebbe hated those who were embraced a non-chassidish perspective. Gedolim renowned for their erudition in Kaballa--like the Chazon Ish--were not good enough unless they learned chassidus, the so called pnimius of Torah (the nerve!). Of course, only the other side can be called a "snag." This is a case of reverse discrimination, nastiness, sinas chinam, and an extraordinarily high level of brazeness toward a gadol hador who was at least one generation his senior.
In what yeshiva was Futterfass learning when his sister got married?
ReplyDeleteWas it Nevel ?
rav yonah lazar:
ReplyDeleteBefore you "get one thing straight", lets get one thing straight. Not citing a source every time you say something does not make it a "wild, unsupported assertion". If it was, I could say 'rav yonah lazar made a a "wild, unsupported assertion" that the Chazon Ish is a gadol hador.'
I'm not speaking of the early days of Telz, and not of REMB. I speak of a later period, after he had passed away. Bochurim would then regularly travel to friends' weddings, even if it meant being away for a few days, and without supervision.
ReplyDeleteMenachem,
ReplyDeleteThe cite is actually located on this blog. Herschel, I am sure, knows exactly what I mean. And it is a wild, unsupported assertion that Chassidus is the pnimius of Torah. It has no basis--obviously--in Shas, poskim, or Toras Nistar. It would be the equivalent, as I said earlier, to stating that Toras Brisk is the pninmius of Torah and that those who DON'T learn Toras Brisk are jealous of children who do once they are in shomayim.
If you think that making such a claim is logical and appropriate, you are simply too much of an idealogue. I can respect idealism, but not when it spurns the undisputed gedolei hador.
"The story in Lunenetz was over a Shavuos. The Bochurim would miss a week of Yeshivah, and the Rosh Yeshivah was of the opinion that on Shavuous, Zman Matan Toroseinu the place for a Bochur is in a Mokom Torah."
ReplyDeleteNot quite. For the record, the story was for the Rebbi's YarTzeit and they did not go without reshus, it was an annual trip that all the bocchurim in the Yeshiva made.
Rav Shach, a hired employee of the Yeshiva, came to the Yeshiva in the morning and saw only one bochur there. He asked the bochur where everyone was and he told Rav Shach where they went. Rav Shcah asked the bochur why he did not go and the bochur responded that he could not afford the trip. Rav Shach reached into his pocket and handed the bochur the money for the train so that he should not have to miss the YarTzeit, then Rav Shach resigned.
He held that he could not be a Rosh Yeshiva of a Yeshiva that had different priorities than what he believed was correct.
. . .and there is nothing wrong with that. At least Rav Shach was not a sell out for money. How many Rebbes do sell out? Plenty.
ReplyDeleteI remember being in Telz for a shabbos 20 years ago, visiting some friends.I recall them telling me that Telz was quite a strict place when it came to leaving yeshiva campus.It was more a reverance type of thing, not a babysitter issue.You did not pickup and leave without permission out of respect for the roshe yeshiva, who, unlike other yeshivos were close with talmidim.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, the reason Telz Cleveland has not been very succesful for years is that it was very old style, with lots of 'Telzer shtick' (for example each meal on shabbos had a maggid shiur from the yeshiva eating with his family together with the bochurim)You had to go through all the yearly shiurim and were not comfortable leaving, if you were close with the roshei yeshiva, before about 22/3, which meant that you could not go through the classic Eretz Yisroel ,Mir, Brisk(i think rav gifter did not like his boys going to brisk)and Lakewood for a shidduch, it would have been to late.
The bottom line is that Telz Cleveland is quite different than other yeshivishe yeshivos
So here we are starting to have many versions.
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth I will add my version:A Karliner chosid that learned in the Mir wanted a choshuveh bochur for his sister, the Karliner Rebbe , told him to promise the bochur a shtelleh as rosh yeshiva in the Karliner yeshiva in Lunenetz as nadan.The bochur, out of respect for Rav Shach, who he knew from Kletzk being a talmid of R'Ahron, did not want to take the shtelleh, though Rav Shach had allready annonuced that he was leaving.Because of this the young couple moved to Kovna where he studied in the Kovna kolel and since it was 1939 and the visas issued to Japan were done in Kaunas , capital of Lithuania, they were saved together with the Mirrer .The rov, attributed his not taking the shtelleh as the reason he was saved, had he been rosh yeshiva in Karlin, he would have remained there.
His name was R'Shayeh Shimanowitz and he married into a Karliner family called Briskman.His almono lives in Lakewood
Yonah
ReplyDeletefunny you should bring that up, comparing Lubavitch to Brisk, because the Briskers do believe that in today's day not learning in the Brisker derech is not Ameilus BaTeyreh! It's not exercising your potential to the fullest.
The story I quoted was with Reb Yoel Kahan's father, not him, and it was said under the influence of alcohol. The Rebbe liked the idea that he trumpeted the idea of Limud HaChassidus to all, even to Gedolei HaDor, and that he too wanted to learn it. It wasn't meant as an insult. It shouldn't surprise anybody here, being that the Rav, author of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, also was a giant in Torah yet wanted more.
To r.y.l -
ReplyDeleteGet YOUR facts straight. Let's see if you REALLY know what his name was (clue: Kahan is indeed right as the last name).
We'll keep it at that, for starters..
Mr.Lazar
ReplyDeleteAs a Williamsburg boy from the 50's and 60's I don"t recall ever ever having the CH labeled as the Godol Hador, by most people the Chebiner Rov was considered the Goan & Godal Hador, the CH as a big goan in Benie Berak but that"s it. And I assume this was the view outside of Williamsburg.
Lieby
ReplyDeletedid it create some great talmidim in its heydays?
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteDoes yor father remember the Munkacher brothers?
Shneur, I don't know in what yeshivah RMF was learning at the time; I just know it probably wasn't Kharkov, because that's where the wedding was. So he must have been somewhere else.
ReplyDelete>>Mr.Lazar
ReplyDeleteAs a Williamsburg boy from the 50's and 60's I don"t recall ever ever having the CH labeled as the Godol Hador, by most people the Chebiner Rov was considered the Goan & Godal Hador, the CH as a big goan in Benie Berak but that"s it. And I assume this was the view outside of Williamsburg.
You call him Mr. precisely because you are a worthless putz from Williamsburg. Rabbi LAzar is one thousand times the talmd chochom your worthless Rebbe would ever be. What the am hoaratzim of Williamsburg think about who the gadol hador is is not dispositive of anything. You and what you have heard in the cloistered hallowed and ignorant halls of Williamsburg is irrelevant to the world of scholarship. There is no question as to the standing of the CI as one of the gedolei hador. It is, sadly, a result of the sinas chinam, corruption, and hatred of Torah that you, a certain Rebbe, and others have voice abhorrent opinions degrading one of the acknowledged gedolei hador.
I suggest you start learning. Eventually you will have the aptitude to correctly understand the degree to which your idiocy resounds your post.
Putz.
karlbach asking reb ahron to go visit the rebbs
ReplyDeleteAnon.
ReplyDeleteWho is CH? You probably mean the Chazon Ish but don't even know the correct name.
Re:The Tchebiner Rov, he was an Agudist, so it would be surprising that he would be viewed as The Godol Hador in SatmARS Wiliamsburg at the time.
But you are not froM Willy anyway.....Stam a dreikup
The "Rosh", R. Ezra Shochet, once left Ner Israel in baltimore to go for 19 Kislev to NY. When he returned, the Mashgiach, Reb Dovid Kornglas, said he was guilty of avodah zara and wanted to throw him out of yeshivah. Rabbi Ruderman said it wasn't that serious and interceded to keep him in yeshivah, he didn't want to lose a prime talmid. Eventually, though, he left anyway for Lakewood where he was a talmid of Reb Aaron, and learned bechevrussa with his cousin Reb Shneur Kotler.Later he went to Brisk (Reb Dovid) who set up Rabbi Heller as his chevrussa to entice him out of chabad. In reality we know the story: Rabbi Heller didn't get R. Shochet out of Chabad but the other way around: Reb Ezra turned him into a chabadnik...
ReplyDeleteHistorian:
ReplyDeleteHow was R'Aharon related to the Shochets?
I don't know why Lubavitchers have to make things up:Rabbi Heller was not sep up to deprogram Rabbi Shochet.He is probably the last person who would be good as a deprogrammer.He was and is a fine talmid chochom, but not an ideologue, and with his Hungarian,Swiss backround far from a Snag.
I guess it makes people happy to make up myths.
Btw, can someone please help:R'Immanuel and R'Dovid the older brothers both went to Lubavitch, so how come R'Ezra, quite a bit younger was sent to Litvishe yeshivos?
Can anyone verify if The Rosh indeed learned in Lakewood during R'Ahrons time?He would have only been 19 at the time of R'Ahrons passing....
Another example of classic Chabad revisionism. By now we know the Rebbe only went to the U. of Berlin for a semester and half, did not even go to the Sorbonne, etc. Now we have to examine if he was "the greatest talmid chochom of the century." I don't think that would be hard to disprove.
ReplyDeleteTzig
ReplyDeleteWhat r u doing on and around gimmel tammuz?
"How was R'Aharon related to the Shochets?"
ReplyDeleteRebbetzen Kotler cousin of R. Shochet Sr.
"I don't know why Lubavitchers have to make things up:Rabbi Heller was not sep up to deprogram Rabbi Shochet.He is probably the last person who would be good as a deprogrammer.He was and is a fine talmid chochom, but not an ideologue, and with his Hungarian,Swiss backround far from a Snag."
Sorry to disappoint you. This has been confirmed by both the Rosh and Rabi Heller! Maybe R' Dovid Soloveichik felt him to be the right person to be "mekarev" the Rosh becuase they were both born in Switzerland.
"Btw, can someone please help:R'Immanuel and R'Dovid the older brothers both went to Lubavitch, so how come R'Ezra, quite a bit younger was sent to Litvishe yeshivos?"
I heard that the Rebbe insisted that he learn in Litvishe yeshives.
"
"Can anyone verify if The Rosh indeed learned in Lakewood during R'Ahrons time?He would have only been 19 at the time of R'Ahrons passing...."
He was with R"A for 2 years before RA's passing. One of the Reichmanns related that RA said to him (being from Toronto) that for 50 years he hadn's seen a brain like the Rosh's.
Chaim T /Anon
ReplyDeletetake it easy
1) Who is the Lazar guy the big talmud chochom?
2)Did you ever see the letters of the Stiepler asking the shailos and he is calling him Rabbeini
3) The only person that the Brisker Rov had bitul for was the Chebiner, he once quoted him a Rebienu Gershom on one of his chidushim in Kodshim he, he isolated himself for a week to digest it.
4) You can curse Willi till the end of days, but these are the facts that in America he wasnt as popular as today. even out of the willi boundaries.
I can't verify 100%, but m'zogt that when R' Ezra Shochet was in Lakewood, and (at a particluar point in his Chabad awareness)wanted to go to the Rebbe for Shavuos.
ReplyDeleteR' Aharon tried to convince him out of it, "Uber Mattan Torah iz doch in Lakewood!"
He responded wittily, "Uber Moshe Rabbeinu (or as some versions go: Noisein HaTeyreh") iz in 770.."
*
Another tidbit:
Ever notice why R' Aharon's chidushim etc. (in book form) were only printed after 3 Tammuz? A peleh!
M'zogt, that the Rebbe said about upshloging it, and since then, they were terrified..
Again - these are not verified, so don't take me for it.
"Ever notice why R' Aharon's chidushim etc. (in book form) were only printed after 3 Tammuz? A peleh! "
ReplyDeleteOf course, like most Lubavitcher myths (same is probaly true for all groups), this is totaly untrue.
The first volume of the Shailos U Tshuvos was published BEFORE RAV SCHNEUR WAS NIFTER, over 25 years ago. And by the time I came to Lakewood 15 years ago, the chiddusim on four or five Mesechtos had been printed already. In fact, in the last five years or so, I cant think of ANY new seforim of Rav Arohn being printed.
Hershul, I have an interest in the pic of the Yavne girls Yeshiva. Can you tell us were you got it from?
ReplyDelete>>He responded wittily, "Uber Moshe Rabbeinu (or as some versions go: Noisein HaTeyreh") iz in 770.."
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe was NOT Moshe Rabbeinu
I heard this alleged conversation with regard to the Satmar Rebbe, not the Rebbe Almighty. With respect to the former, the conversation, while cute, is arguable. With respect to the latter, I am not so sure. The Satmar Rebbe was a gadol b'Torah. The latter enjoyed insulting the Chazon Ish--a gadol hador at least one generation his senior--when he already passed away. This was not done for the sake of expressing the emes--as his point was sheker--it was to insult the rest of the Jewish world. More of a Korach, methinks.
ReplyDeleteArye
ReplyDeleteIn insulting Gedolim, who would beat whom Satmar Rebbe or the Lubavitcher you Idiot,
About the gadlus betorah I will discuss another day.
. . .the Lubavitcher, hands down. At least the Satmar Rebbe knew how to learn!!! He was a bar plugta. The Rebbe was not an equal of his, nor was he in a position to criticize others who were a heck of a lot greater, and dead.
ReplyDeleteI see there's a new moron in town......
ReplyDeleteHistorian:
ReplyDeleteSchochet senior was cousin of R'Ahron Kotlers wife or R'Schneur Kotlers wife?
The picture of the Yavneh HS is from here
ReplyDeleteI think my work is done. The Snags have outsnagged themselves. Yona, why don't you put up or shut up? Just keep on throwing out accusation (you and your friends here) without actually backing them up, that is the perfect light for you to be seen in.
ReplyDeleteWhenever you need a reminder to snag yourselves, just give a holler.