Yisrael Segal died on Chol HaMoed Sukkos, yet nobody seems to care. At least not his immediate family. We wrote about him not long ago. The secularists do seem to care. His brother Reb Don, the Mashgiach, was seen participating in HaKofos Shniyos on Motzoei Yom Tov in Israel, instead of sitting down to mourn the loss of his (younger) brother. It seems to be based on the Psak of HaRav Elyashiv, which seems to be correct at least as far as the first four Chelkei Shulchan Aruch are concerned. Then again, I'm a Hoyle Am Ho'oretz, and could be wrong on that end too. Maybe we don't have to go to the Finfte Shulchan Aruch for advice as to how to act. The exact wording goes something like this: מתעטפים לבנים ואוכלים ושותים ושמחים שאבדו שונאיו של מקום. I guess Reb Don thinks that his brother hated G-d. That's just sad.
The defenders all say that he's correct in doing so. After all, didn't he never miss a chance to blast religious Jews, includingh his own parents? didn't he expose his parents (as if) by announcing to the world that they too read the secular papers and visited the Edison Theater in Jerusalem on Motzoei Shabbos? didn't he publicly question the existence the G-d, and worse, deny it? Didn't he publicly ask that no Shivah be sat for him, and that he buried in a secular cemetery in a secular ceremony? Why then give his soul the benefits it gets when shivah is sat and Kaddish said?! But we forget one thing: Reb Don suppoedly does know the truth, and he knows that the Neshomoh right now is begging for it's atonement and to be saved from the wrath of Gehennom, so why not show a little mercy towards a Bruder'ke and sit Shivah for him?
Ein lonu elo divrei Ben Amrom, and even more so maaseh rav. The Rebbe knew the halochos at least as well as Reb Don and his so-called "godol hador" put together, and yet when his brother died he arranged for him to come to kevuras yisroel, and he sat shiva for him.
ReplyDeleteR'Don is the older brother by about 7 years not like you wrote.
ReplyDeleteMillhouse
ReplyDeleteWhy the put down of R'Elyoshiv 'so called'?What does that have to do with the point?
Apparently Yisroel Segal actively tried to make people frei, quite a different story from the Rebbes brother.
I'm not taking a stand, but thought better of you, Millhouse, to be honest.Apparently your one time 'slip of the pen' regarding Jews for J is actually much more common.
Zig, its time to change your name to shumer.
ReplyDeleteif reb dan would not be a Godol he would sat shivah but we have here a probem he is a leader what will the kids say? that a leader has a brother ha! who is he? let me read his stuff, let me seee maybe he is right and reb dan is wrong.
zig here lies the point where you chabadnicks cross the line between kiruv and richuk
I thought Lubavitchers were big into Rambam:
ReplyDeleteרמב"ם יד החזקה - הלכות אבל פרק א
(י) כל הפורשין מדרכי צבור והם האנשים שפרקו עול המצות מעל צוארן ואין נכללין בכלל ישראל בעשיית המצות ובכבוד המועדות וישיבת בתי כנסיות ובתי מדרשות אלא הרי הן כבני חורין לעצמן כשאר האומות וכן האפיקורוסין והמומרים והמוסרין כל אלו אין מתאבלין עליהן אלא אחיהם ושאר קרוביהם לובשין לבנים ומתעטפים לבנים ואוכלים ושותים ושמחים שהרי אבדו שונאיו של הקב"ה ועליהם הכתוב אומר הלא משנאיך ה' אשנא:
'An offeneh Rambam'
Millhouse, probably has the 'politically correct,Lubab' edition
message to Faish:
ReplyDeletemy email address is neveler@gmail.com, please use that to send me personal messages.
Thank You, and a gezunten vinter to you too.
After eading this story , a kasha hot zich farentvert to me , why the BESHT was nisgaleh !!!
ReplyDeleteHey Tzig where do I sign up to rejoin the Chassidic community.
I spoke to a erliche Yid who grew up with Mr. Segal A"H in Jslm and knew him well as a ked and young teen,. He was shocked to hear of his death .
He told me that he blamed the chevra in some well known yeshiva in BB headed by the founder of Degel HaTorah ZT". He claimed they were jealous of his kishronus and did everything possible to be merachek him, especially at a time when yichus counted at that school.
If this is true then we have sort of" hagam rozachto veyorashta". First you show him no kiruv and then you write him out of Klal Israel.
And tell me what do the Esh people tell their recruits not to say kaddish and sit shiva after their parents ??
Classic Shneour Zalman!
ReplyDeleteRelying on some obscure source 'who knew him as a young kid' and jumping to conclusions!
Ponovizh has literally thousands of alumni, few have had this experience.
Btw, 'that' rosh yeshiva who you think you are big enough to 'deride',ACTUALLY, was very mekarev him as a young man and even quotes him in his sefer Aviezri!
Shows how much you 'know'.
Btw, from now I'm going to take with lots of salt and pepper your other 'reporting' that is not very positive on Chabad, nor your 'insider' status because you knew R'Barry.Not reliable, too jumpy, too emotional.
In case you are wondering-I'm a neutral non Lubavitcher who is a paid member of a Lubavitch synagogue.
to be fair:
ReplyDeletePonovizh didn't have thousands of alumni when he learned there; it was not very big in the 50's.
I don't see where Schneur blamed the Rosh Yeshivah, he blamed other Bochurim.
I would think some Aish guys wouldn't sit Shivah, but most would, since their parents would qualify for the Tinok SheNishboh "discount."
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteNot to nitpick, Ponovizh was founded in E.Isroel in 1944 and within a couple of years had hundreds of bochrim, see the size of the Bais hamedrash (though I'm not sure when it was built, but it's been around for a long. long time).Israel Segal learned there when he was about 17 after going to a yeshiva high school prior to that (his family was more modern than other classic black hats)he was about 62 or 63 when he died, so he learned there in the early 60's, when Ponovizh was very well established with a kolel that included many yungerlait.Whatever, by today it has had many thousands of alumni, including the film maker Voloch who became non religous and just won some prize.So of course some ex talmidim fried out, but to jump to conclusions based just on this is a non reliable, jumpy guy.
Btw,the two NKVD officers who arrested the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe, Lulav and some other name that escapes me were both children of Lubavitchers who had grown up religous.Are we to jump to conclusions based on this?Silly...
Baumel, the Rebbe also knew this Rambam, and yet he did the opposite. Maaseh rav.
ReplyDeleteBoro park, I calls 'em as I sees 'em. By me the pronouncements that issue from his office are of absolutely no weight at all. As R Avigdor Miller once said about a certain prominent talmid chochom, who is to this day considered a godol by thousands, "X said something is like the Pope said something".
As for the man himself, I express no opinion - all the pronouncements in his name come from his "assistant", not from him; but he bears the ultimate responsibility for allowing this person to act in his name, and for backing him up when challenged.
The Rebbe also had occasional problems with people doing things in his name, but he stepped down firmly on it whenever it came to light, and did whatever it took to correct it and to make sure that it wouldn't happen again. (cf the maneuvering around Peres's plot to overthrow Shamir.) If this "godol" can't do the same, then for that alone he's no godol.
“Btw, the two NKVD officers who arrested the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe, Lulav and some other name that escapes me were both children of Lubavitchers who had grown up religous.Are we to jump to conclusions based on this? Silly...”
ReplyDeleteMy great great grandfather was arrested and put on trial in Slutsk in the 1920’s. He was informed on for teaching Torah to children, a no no in communist Belarus. At the time in Slutsk they said that both the informer, policeman and judge were former students of his!!!!
Millhouse,I fail to see what you are trying to prove from the Rebbe?Or were you just making an observation?The post mentioned that R'Don is apparently not sitting shiva apparently following a psak of R'Elyoshiv, though I'm not sure that any of this can be vouched for.Now I just quoted the Ramba'm and the 'dry' halocha.That would appear to back up the no shiva position,OBVIOUSLY,The Rebbe had a good reason for sitting for his brother, but why would you think/imply that R'Elyoshivs psak is the chidush?Btw, without knowing the reason and facts behind the Rebbes position you can in no way say that it is a 'maaseh rav' and meant to be followed, maybe there was a special reason.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, you are treading dangerous waters by blaming a godol for certain things you disagree with and claim came from unreliable spokespeople.As you yourself realized many strange things have happened in Lubavitch, are you going to blame The Rebbe for the Meshichist problem for example?
Chaim:
ReplyDeletethe name you're searching for is Nachmanson, but you miss the point here. I'm not here to gloat over the fact that Reb Don had a freie brother, I'm not a child, it in no way reflects on him. It's the Reb Don response to his leaving Yiddishkeit that gets me, especially the not sitting shivah.
R'Dons alleged response is what the Rambam quoting a gemaro says.
ReplyDeleteIn other words you don't understand the Gemoro.
There may be extenuating circumstances, tinuk shenishba for example or craziness, but you don't seem to 'like' the attitude of the halocho.Time to strengthen chasides shiur.
MY "obscure" source is a well known orthodox academic and talmid Chochom, who has published numerous academic seforim and sifre kodesh and was meshamesh both secular giants and gedolei srael.I know neither R. Don or his late brother or anyone in this family.
ReplyDeleteI never accused the dean of that school of doing anything. All I did was relate a story I heard from someone who was a childhood friend of his in Jerusalem . In journalistic lingo its called a lead, a handle, and let others investigate .
As they say in the USA take it or leave it .
The purpose of a blog is a " Tiyuta". Its a sort of non publication chat room. its not a book or something carved in stone.Yes if one wishes to be nizhar in ilchos Lashon Hore , the whole enterprise is not for him neither should the net be for him.
What Barry Gourary has to do with Segal is beyond me. I have also met and talked to other interesting people rabbis , rebbes and leaders in my life and I relate stories Barry told me for several reasons , among them he is the only member of the Schneerson clan to witness events of the 20th century in Chabad who was willing to speak about them .
In all the blogs etc I have never seen Mrs. Mushka, Mrs Gourary, the Rashag quoted about anything, so I believe that Barry's observations may be of interest.
Secondly I have found that many card carrying Anash are very interested in "ma Tivo" of Barry and his life and views.
In clonclusion what does hurt me is the psak by R. Elyoshev . All most every roshs yeshiva of our generation had siblings who were not frum and were not in the categroy of Tinok shenishba, yet I am sure the roshim sat shiva for them.I"ll go out on a limb this psak in terms of public policy breaks new ground.Zaats gezint
There is no question that this breaks new ground.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, it seems from what little is publicized that this is all verbal, and that both Rabbi Don Segal and Rabbi Elyashiv put in time and effort to find a way for Rabbi Segal to sit Shiva, and were not able to find a heter. This was a specific situation for a specific man. I am not sure why Rabbi Elyashiv didn't determine that shema hirher teshuvah belibo and shiva should be sat at least mesafek, but we don't have a psak din in our hands to go further.
According to the p'sak by Maran, the Rebbe should not have sat shiva for his brother, Yisroel Aryeh Leib. Did he?
ReplyDeleteThe above is the most nonsensical application of a Halachah I have ever seen. Have you seen the Psak Din? Have you compared the two situations?
ReplyDeleteI see, so from the Rambam till today there were no other Poskim like, say, the Tur, the ReMo, the Shach, or the Sma? we now Pasken straight from the Rambam? My G-d! even a recent Acharon never touched the subject?!I thought that was the probem with learning Rambam Yomi, that we'd pasken like him......
ReplyDeleteHirshel,
ReplyDeleteNow I know why your name is tzig. You have a beard but still act like a tzig.
Rav Elyoshiv is the biggest posek in the world. The shulchan aruch is to most yidden what Likutei Sichos is to you. There's no draying out of it with some nonsense about the fifth chelek of shulchan aruch or some other derush vertel. It's the word of G-d.
aderaba, show me the Siman in Shulchan Aruch that was used to come up with the Psak.
ReplyDeletethanks for the insults, by the way.
even the house of Elyashiv is hesitant to take credit for the ruling.
Tzig-
ReplyDeleteYou asked for the seif in shulchan oruch:"כל הפורשים מדרכי צבור, והם האנשים שפרקו עול המצוות מעל צווארם, ואין נכללים בכלל ישראל בעשייתם, ובכבוד המועדות וישיבת בתי כנסיות ובתי מדרשות, אלא הרי הם כבני חורין לעצמן כשאר האומות... כל אלו אין... מתאבלים עליהם" (שולחן ערוך יורה דעה שמה, ה).
I'm not taking a stand but find it laughable when some guy posts a 'maaseh rav' from the Rebbe that involved a quite man in Liverpool who may have had a stage in his life that needed chizuk.Is that at all similar to this case?
I never brought the Rebbe as a source of what to do in such a case. However, there doesn't seem to be a difference in the Halochoh you quote here. Liverpool is the same as Israel, not that I'm comparing the 2 brothers at all.
ReplyDeleteIMHO the question is more for the rebbe than RD Segal. After all, RDS is simply following the psak halacha of the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam - while the rebbe - it seems - did differently.
ReplyDeleteI think it was actually Chabad chasidim in Tel Aviv who recalled how he used to walk past their Beth hamidrash on Shabbos - smoking. So it seems he would qualiy for the psak of the Shulchan Aruch re such people.
And no way one can anyone claim the Yisroel Alter Leib was a tinok shenishba.
As someone said: When in doubt - follow the Shulchan Aruch - and you won't go wrong.
You asked for the siman in shulchan oruch.You got it.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you acknowledge that?
we hereby acknowledge H.G. and the siman in Shulchan Aruch.
ReplyDeleteI remember that the mentalblog/reshimu guy blasted a rov from Boston for paskening that he should say kaddish after his father for 12 months.
ReplyDeleteThe din of a poshei yisroel is 12 months in gehinnom and therefore we say kaddish for eleven months under the presumption that the niftar was not a poshei yisroel.
This saga is a very sad one,I think that R'Don may have even sat shiva during the brothers lifetime and for sure they were totally alienated a fact that Yisroel wrote about in some autobigraphies on the other hand the Rebbe and Leibl were close and the Rebbe was very fond of him,also Leibl did not engage in badmouthing of the frummeh.
Another famous case of shiva sitting was by the Imrei Chaim of Vishnitz whose daughter married a non religous man and went to live on a kibbutz, but eventually the made up and she returned to frumkait.
No, 613, there are no questions on the Rebbe. The fact that the Rebbe did something is all the proof we need that it was right. If there's a halacha in Rambam or a se'if in Shulchan Aruch that appears to say the opposite, then we have a question in learning. We can try to be mekayem what's written by distinguishing the cases, or by improving our understanding of the source, or we can remain with a question. What we can not do is conclude that the Rebbe should have done differently.
ReplyDeleteIn our case we can certainly distinguish between the Rebbe's case and Reb Don's, but the relevant sources on which R Don is reported to rely would seem to apply equally to the Rebbe. And yet the Rebbe, who certainly knew these sources better than we do, and better than R Don does, nevertheless acted as he did; that is all the proof we need that that is the correct way to act, despite what is written.
Milhouse,
ReplyDeleteThanks for not saying that the Rebbe knew the sources better than R. Elyashiv.
Millhouse
ReplyDeleteYou are showing yourself to be a grubbeh am-hooretz.The Radva'z for example writes that a rosho who was not mefursam, one should rais kriah for them, but a rosho mefursam not.
You don't know what sources R'Don used yet you give a whole shtikkel toira .
Btw, in case you did not know:Ein novi rashai lechadesh dovor, so your implication that if we learn up a sugyah and see a clear halocho, we would still follow the Rebbe is just more of your ignorant crud.In fact once the Torah was given to us, even a Bas Kol is of no interest to us.In fact the gemora related a machloikes between the Eybeshter and pamalya shel maalo and the halocho is paskened like pamalyo shel maalo because an Amoiro held that way, loh bashomayim hee!
Btw, in the Rebbes case with his brother there is no question that he could've sat shiva so the whole 'mayse rav' becomes your own boich sevoro with no dimyon.
Dor hashvi'inik run amock down under
“No, 613, there are no questions on the Rebbe. The fact that the Rebbe did something is all the proof we need that it was right. If there's a halacha in Rambam or a se'if in Shulchan Aruch that appears to say the opposite, then we have a question in learning. We can try to be mekayem what's written by distinguishing the cases, or by improving our understanding of the source, or we can remain with a question. What we can not do is conclude that the Rebbe should have done differently.
ReplyDeleteIn our case we can certainly distinguish between the Rebbe's case and Reb Don's, but the relevant sources on which R Don is reported to rely would seem to apply equally to the Rebbe. And yet the Rebbe, who certainly knew these sources better than we do, and better than R Don does, nevertheless acted as he did; that is all the proof we need that that is the correct way to act, despite what is written.”
One of the classic signs of a cult is that there is no authority (ie law book or theology etc) higher than the cult leader. Hm. Sounds like what Milhouse is writing.
This past week’s Bakehilla newspaper, (parshas Noach) has an article addressing your concern for Yisrael Segal’s neshama. The article is by Chaim Greenbaum.
ReplyDeleteI think his perspective is a bit more realistic than yours. Enjoy!
B"H
ReplyDeleteYou all forget that the rambam spoke on people in his generation, today most of the people are "Tinokot She Nishbu"
also Segal's act was a cry for help, he tried to attract attention.
in Gitting it says that if a husband dosent give a GET you lash him till he says "I Want", but he really dont want ,thats way you punish him, the answer was the Neshama wants.