(5 Teves 5747 at 770)
Today is Hey Teves, the day that the Court decided the case of Berke Gurarie vs the Rebbe in favor of the Rebbe. Chassidim continue to celebrate this day, but many are clueless as to its significance, and think it's just about the Seforim staying right where they are now. Not exactly. Children are taught the "short version," i.e. that the books came home, but that's a side issue. Others think that it's some kind of personal victory over a disgruntled "bad apple" in the family. No, no, no. I may have mentioned this before, like maybe last year this time, but it's a point that's worth repeating. The case brought against the Rebbe was one Thirty-Five years in the making. Berke and Chana Gurary never came to terms with the fact that their father/husband wasn't chosen as successor to his father-in-law after being the first SIL and being groomed to be successor for years. Yes, it started with him stealing books like a common thief, but the result was a claim on leadership. The fact that Rashag accepted his fate and didn't go off and start another Lubavitch is to his credit. That never would've happened in today's day and age.
The result of the ensuing court case, and the victory enjoyed by the Rebbe and Agudas Chasidei Chabad, is that today there's at least some semblance of order in Lubavitch, at least as far as the umbrella organizations are concerned. Were it not for the fact that Chabad was re-incorporated and brought into the latter half of the Twentieth Century allowed for those that were put in charge by the Rebbe to be on guard and make sure that at least the main arms of Lubavitch are run in some sort of organized manner. Also, it allowed for the building at 770 to remain as a functioning shul and for the offices to continue to occupy them. If G-d forbid the court case would never have happened, that is to say that it even would just be resolved in Din Torah, then after 3 Tammuz the honorable Berke G could've claimed it all and booted everybody out. The lack of an organized Religious Corporation could easily have by default made it all belong to his grandfather, and by extension him after his father's and the Rebbe's passing. That, combined with the fact that the Rebbe was dragged through the mud by an unhappy man who was Merachek the only man who ever gave him the time of day, is reason to celebrate for all.
What was the hetter for going to court instead of a din torah? What is the difference between this and the actions of Chaim Berlin?
ReplyDeleteIt seems a little exaggerated to make a Yom Tov for winning a court case, your explanation not withstanding.
#1, you.ve been putting on some nice stuff lately
ReplyDelete#2 does anyone know whats up with Tzemachs blog?? Whats up with him?
after all this is the anti now of what?
if Berke claimed legaly or din torahdig some of the personal belongings of his grand parents, parents, uncle,aunt, he still has no legal claim to anything orginsational, and the rebbes personal belongings could have had him excluded by a will from any inheritance ,so lubavith was not threatend at all,the rebbe wanted a personal Nekuma in him for not reconizing him as rebbe over his father ,this is not a yom tov
ReplyDeleteWho reads these sforim? who benefit rom them?
ReplyDelete770 shul is in order?
I heard that 770 was taken over by a Moshichist groop calles "tzfatim"
I also heard many fights for power and money in all LUb Organizations
will, not will, this BD, a goyshe court
I also have my mules
Do you really think such a post is a smart thing ?
ReplyDeleteExcuse me:
ReplyDeleteU N got to use his initials only after using his full name for weeks. You can't just prance in here and expect us to know who you are! What do U D stand for?
it is known that berke refused to go to a din torah and all the poskim permitted to go to court. as a matter of fact nat lewin, the lawyer for chabad says that at the first meeting yudel krinski showed him a written heter arkoes.
ReplyDeletei think mina is not aware of any of the details of the case. she was just poisoned by someone. to say that it was a nekoma is just completely against of the facts.
ReplyDeleteU.D.?
ReplyDeleteSimple.
Umenachem Dschneerson.
That's how Lubavitch distorts the facts in everything.
Thank you very much.
And thank you for supporting Michael Jackson.
anon
ReplyDeleteMina was Berke's wife's name. The guy writing here has an agenda: to defend Berke. Take it in stride.
Tzig, backdating on us now?
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts: Hey Teves Facts
''Mina was Berke's wife's name. The guy writing here has an agenda: to defend Berke. Take it in stride.''
ReplyDeleteAnd you, my dear have no A-G-E-N-D-A???
Another case of pot calling frying pan black?
You must've overdone the vodka spiked kool aid,since your didon notzach happened a few days ago.
Whatever.
Celebrating the fact that The Previous Rebbes grandson lost a lawsuit is not very Jewish.Specially since the guy who paskened was a goy (though the Rebbe managed to turn that into a 'good thing',''Even' the goyim realize who the Real Rebbe is')And we all know that Barry had a very good chance for his claim of half in a din toiroh, that is why Lubavitch was in such a tizzy.
'Heter' to go to erko'ois?
Who wrote the psak?A choshuveh yungerman from Montreal by the name of R'Aizik Schvei z'l.Just happens to be that he was a Lubavitcher.So?Well can a chsid publish an unbiased psak against his Rebbe??Everybody knows the Rebbe wanted to go to a secular court, it is also obvious that a Lubavitcher would try to come up with a psak that allowed for it.
Once upon a time they said that Chabad was about emmes.Not anymore.
Another reason zich shikerren.Noch a chogo.
no, I had started it on Friday but had no time to finish. I thought you had stopped writing.
ReplyDeleteU' D' is my little cousin from Varmont.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point : it's a given concept that while for Jews there is a due process and din Torah that represents, simply speaking, the the holy "daas", for gentiles there is their own daas of the less holy sources, and that is one of the reasons why going to "erkoes" is compared to A"Z. So when someone says something to the tune of "Thank G-D they didn't go to Din Tora where Beri would end up with a half" what they really say is that they need an endorsement of the unholy of the unholiest, while according to the very rules they attempt to preach they have no real claim to the items in question and - by their own perverted extension - to the rebbisteve.
The events of 5 Teves are the very definition of Chillul H'. It's about as close as a frum organization can get to eating lobster thermidor in public as it gets. Whatever the petty quarrel may be, when President of All Jews needs a unholy gentile court to endorse a fight against the very own nephew - how lower can it go ? And when a rubber stamp "posek" is oiver in public on about a dozen deoraysos pertaining to the due process in issuing this heter erkoes - that excacerbates it even further. So what surprise can there be that the heads of klipa decided to affix a great choga to this shameful day. In the wildest dreams wouldn't the staunchest aroinim or zaloinim not think of making a yomtov from the day of their court victories; this day really stands alone.
I'd believe half of what you say were you not such a knee-jerk guy when it comes to Lubavitch. Especially after the remarks you made about Aron Teitelbaum, KING of the court-goers.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing to believe - nothing that I said is a matter of belief, these are simple matters of fact.
ReplyDeleteA"T the Nosi Doreinu, with all his court-going, never made a yomtov around his victories. Frankly, your bickering about the size of his menorah is simple envy; you have to work hard to invent his actual sins, and you have to work even harder to cover up your own misdeeds.
And don't project your own inner sectarian insecurities towards my reaction to "Lubavitch". I don't judge anyone by their name or association, I let actions, words, truth and lies and hard facts be the decisive factor. I know that for a professional demagogue that's an unfathomable concept but so far it works way better then your flip-flopping inconsistent and deceptive juju.
A"T the Nosi Doreinu, with all his court-going, never made a yomtov around his victories.
ReplyDeleteThat's because he never had a single victory!!!!!!!
He's lost every single time.
I see you totally missed what I said. Figures. The point was this was not some kind of personal fight, contrary to what you "realists" believe.
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteYou are quite right, but the yeriya is to short to elaborate properly, at this time.
Sforim is to Hey Teiveis what Matza is to Pesach!
Alleh sonim zullen (un veelloon)platzen!
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteI think you're missing _my point. It's fairly clear that it was done on behalf of the [new] Party. That makes matters worse, not better. That's a declaration no behalf of the entire Party that while we're probably not right in the Din Torah, we're happy to go to the gentile court; such is our interpretation of the applicable concepts in "Chassidus". It would be much better if it was dealt with in a way everyone else deals with their necessary court battles - get it over with and forget about it. It's a shameful necessity, not a matter of pride. Unless your book says otherwise.
Tzigelle,
ReplyDeleteSince you so nicely related all of the details of Chaim Berlin's סירוב, why don't you tell is about Berke's siruv, who called him to a din torah, etc. and add a picture of the documents also.
ask Schneur for those papers, or maybe Berke's Satmarer associates.
ReplyDeleteU N
ReplyDeleteHow convenient of you to misunderstand what I said.
I thanked G-d that they incorporated properly otherwise any court or Lehavdil, Beis Din would've seen it all private property and thus divided it amongst the Yorshim, namely him. I didn't say that we're happy that the case then wasn't resolved in B"D!
Pretty easy to knock a dead man, eh. At what point did "Berke" become ois-"Beis Harav", and can we go on with suffixes - Berke, Shmarke - how far up is it ok ? And whom would you like to blame for this hiccup in succession ?
ReplyDeleteHere is what you mumbled :
"If G-d forbid the court case would never have happened, that is to say that it even would just be resolved in Din Torah, then after 3 Tammuz the honorable Berke G could've claimed it all and booted everybody out"
Your words speak for themselves. And since you make a "Yom Eidom" on this day with mashke and who knows what else, again the deeds speak pretty clearly that you're very happy with the whole story.
On a different note, are these the same seforim that were flooded due to neglectful storage earlier this year ?
Thanks for copying and pasting my words.
ReplyDeleteThe point of what I wrote is that had the Seforim case been resolved in DT, and Berke had lost then, EVEN then he may have had a claim had they not gone ahead and incorporated properly. being that it wasn't set up properly, but rather everything was left as the Frierdige Rebbe had left it JUST TO AVOID INFIGHTING AMONGST THE FAMILY!!!!
He was always known as Berke, what should I call a man that tried to shame the Rebbe in public, Harav Berke? Rashab?
Had you known the man I'd understand the love for him, but with you it's all about who he fought, not him.
Hang on a second; let's clarify what's being said so that we all understand each other completely.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that the FR left things in a state which is not the "proper setup" because he thought that such an ambiguous non-proper and unincorporated setup would somehow prevent INFIGHTING AMONGST THE FAMILY ?
I didn't know any of these people although I'm sure they knew me. But the two-faced hypocritical approach is off-putting; "Berke" from Beis haRav is up for grabs to call him all kinds of names yet Moshke the AR's son needs to be covered up for and whatnot, as are all the other members of the "Beis" who weren't quite a "Nosi" material. Pray tell, what's the qualifier ?
Wow, finally a semi intelligent question from natchalnik, which shows that you have no understanding at all of what you are dealing with. Your question answers your question: The fact that Horav Moshe ben Chak Admur Hazaken is equivalent in your eyes to Barry. Similar to the fact that that Satmar is equivalent in my eyes to Spinka. It's called ignorance. The difference is, I don't try to weigh in with my opinion on either of them, in fact I have no opinion. Try that option on for size and see if it works for you.
ReplyDeleteYelamdeinu rabeinu what difference it makes to a member of ana"sh who runs "corporate Lubavitch"?. Having rabeyim bossor v'dom to provide direction and accountability, on the other hand, would be a very positive development.
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer,
ReplyDeleteIf Admur haZaken is equivalent in your eyes to any other of the Rebbes, why shouldn't their unseemly and misbehaving offsprings be also somewhat equivalent ? But if you have no opinion (which is a cowardly thing very becoming of Mr. Guravitzer and probably a misleading statement as well) - why bother commenting at all ? Just refer everyone to maamar # 73823 and gegangen.
lets not forget the other yomtov in lubav.yud dalet kislev where another nephew arrested his uncle the mittele rebee ,does any of theese bickering and fighthing help any one in hiddur mitsvos or helps perpetuate middos ruos, what a sad group tzig i dont see anything to celebrate about only a drunk can buy into such nonsense
ReplyDeleteTo all of you
ReplyDeleteHey teves is the 3rd Yom tov that Chabad won by the court system on a conflict between a Rebbe and his jewish misnagdim
Kislev 19 AR vs. Avigdor and his partners in crime
Kislev 10 Mitteller Rebbe vs. his 1st cousin
Teveth 5 the Rebbe Zy"a vs. his nephew.
i am reading all this with astonishment. nebach and the UN are saying such rubbish is one thing - but the fact that any intelligent person can easilily find out the truth is something else. in the beginning lubavich got a heter from all the rabonim including rav herskowitz from willamsburg and reb menashe hakton the ungvarer to place an injunction to stop the sale of the sforim withthe intention of going to a DT. Barry did not agree to go a DT. its quiet simple. i was in court and this was mentioned quiet openly. but i suppose sina mekalkeles seichel hayoshor umevia lidey tipshes
ReplyDeletethey say each person gets a name he deserves. in the bbeginning misnagdim called themselves misnagdim and talmidey habalshem chassidim. behashgocho protis nebach called himself nebach - he seems not to have too much in his life except bitterness. nebach!!
ReplyDeleteits quiet ironic that i saw an accusation that the rebbe wanted to go to cecular court . throught the who geshichte he totally put himself into decision of rabonim about money for the sforim etc etc. while all the other groups like satmar and bobov are running to court they accusing the rebbe who tried not to go. if you dont know this ask dozens of rabonim in willamsburg and bp who were involved
ReplyDeleteWho's the first cousin?
ReplyDeletegoing to court is not" puting himself in the hands of Rabonim"
ReplyDeleteGo back to the Sorbonne, natchalnik. Perhaps they can answer your questions there. Perhaps even when you register as a student.
ReplyDeleteReb Tzig, you forgot to clarify your words as yours truly have humbly asked - to avoid all misunderstandings. Could you kindly address ?
ReplyDeletei don't know if that was your attempt at humor, but if it was, it got lost in translation. please continue with your warm lying words of love and tolerance, you may find an audience.
ReplyDeleteUN
ReplyDeleteIts worth reminding you, that Aron Tietelbaum's uncle the "holy Baal Veyoel Moshe" was using the court system by his elections in the town of Satmar and after he felt that the system worked against him he dropped the case and tried the Din Torah system, and in Israel he used the Zionist court system to grab the Tolchover shul in tzefat from his archenemy the Klausenberger Rebbe,these are all facts with paper work to prove it.
Its amazing how he is beyond criticism
i don't understand whats all this chewing this lie, the Rebbe consulted rabanim and they paskened that he can go to court, and I disagree with Hirshel that the Beis Din would pasken different then the court, look at the Din Torah of sanz in Isreal vs. his BIL, the beisdin gave all the power for the Rebbe even against a will from the old rebbe, there are many other cases like these.
BTW, the library is BH being use by anyone that into printing a sefer that needs a first printing etc.. and you can see in many seforim that they thank Rabbis Levin & Wilhelm for their help for free.
anonymous, who is denying that AT and his brother and many others were often forced to use the court system ? Do you pretend not to understand or are you just retarded in your not understanding a difference between having to go to court and making a choga out of it?
ReplyDeleteAbout the rabonim, how many rabonim without egregious negios paskened that the matter could go to court (not a temporary injunction but a full blown court battle regarding ownership of these books) ? Not that it makes any difference in regards to the court-celebration thing, but it's a separate point of interest.
Reb Menashe Klien And Reb Fishel Hershkowitz are Rabonim with minds of their own and not on the Chabad payroll, I admit that they are Yedidim of Chabad, what did you expect that the Rebbe should have ask the holy Lietner ZYA of the arafat circles.
ReplyDeleteThe more I see the enemies, the obsessed chabad haters are coming out of the woodworks on Hey Teveth on a yearly basis, I grasp the depth of the Yom Haboir.
What a farce,
ReplyDeletethe Titelbaum brothers and their great Uncle were forced by whom ? with a gun?
Both sides are dealing with full fledge Shomrie Shabbos and all the Shemona Begodim as they call it in 11211.vs. BG