HERE
I don't think I've ever seen a more disheartening document in my life. I've heard that RPMA was made to sign this before his brother's Levaya by his nephew, the current Gerrer Rebbe. If this is true then I'm left speechless. Whom are you gonna defend here, and what justification can there possibly be? I've also seen a document where RPMA signs over the chair of Gerrer Nesius to his brother's son and subsequent heirs, and relinquishes any claim that his children may have to the Gerrer Rebbistive. I belive that document was signed before the Levaya, and IIRC, the Levaya was delayed until the signing of that document. The paper here seems to have a date of Yud Tamuz attached to it, three days after the Lev Simcha passed away.
I am not disheartened at all.
ReplyDeleteI remember that this was all the (positive) rage at the time: That R Simcha Bunim's son and RPMA agreed that RPMA would be Rebbe first, to be followed by his nephew, RSBA's son.
The kovod was that it had been known all along that RSBA's son was in line to succeed his father. He decided as a kovod to his uncle that his uncle would be the Rebbe, all the while making sure not to create a whole new "House of Orleans" that might have jeopardized his own right to succeed and created a new branch of machlokes in Ger.
(L'havdil this was the tension that existed in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan before King Hussein's death. Hussein had originally intended for his brother to succeed him. But when the brother refused to agree to have his nephew (Hussein's son) succeed him, Hussein changed his will and made his son the Crown Prince.)
I'm sure someone might attempt to make this seem uglier than it is by revealing more details of machinations and handlers, but the basic story is not improper or unethical in the slightest.
All is well.
The current Rebbe is destroying Gur
ReplyDeletemay all dead or alive royal courts perish bemecheira beyameinu.
ReplyDeletehershel, my sentiments, exactly.
ReplyDeletehirshel, don't be foolish. How in the world is this different from what went on behind the scenes when the rebbes shidduch was being negotiated??
ReplyDeletewhat seems to be the case sadly, is: business is business.
ReplyDeleteYou do not state a source of authenticity.
ReplyDeleteSo lets assume its true. Something is not halachaly straight here.
One cannot inherit something and then be ordered how to pass it on when he dies, plain and simple halacha.
ירושה is from Hashem not from the dying person. His right is only מחיים but he cannot order לאחריו כלום.
If נשיאות is inherited and that is a major dispute in הלכה Since the Tzanzer Rav wrote that אדמורות never went accrding to ירושה
"first the בעש"ט
2nd the maggid then R. Elimelech then the Chozeh" its not for a son to yarshen.
So this doc is mystery to me. if its yerusha then R. Shaul needs to be Rebbe. If not, then the most qualified must be...some would claim R. Shaul by this reckoning.
Either way Gur's prestige is a thing of the past. the only thing they can boost about is they have a lot פלייש
I'm not impressed.
Yosef718
put up the other documents too, please.
ReplyDeletethe we will have a clearer picture of all the "events"
Chasidim=Business.
ReplyDeleteWhat else is new?
Ger is no worse or better than the rest.If we had to list the number of fights in the various chasidic courts, we wouldbe very busy.
Chabad came out with the most 'novel' idea.The Rebbe is actually still here!No succession fights!
tzibaleh,
ReplyDeletefor the uninformed what went on before the rebbes shidduch?
Tzib
ReplyDelete1) nice to hear from you
2) There's no actual document to attest to an agreement
3) That was done b4 a Shidduch, not b4 a LEVAYA
יחי ההבדל
ok, split hairs if you like.
ReplyDeleteThe ultimate historical greatness of George Washington was that he ceded command of the American army back to Congress even as the army and legislators were pressing him to declare himself King over the new nation. And then again in a show of humility and honor, he stepped down from the Presidency after four terms thereby creating the precedent that an American leader shall NOT be president for life.
ReplyDeleteThat this was a Chidush for the Gentile Nations is understandable.
That the opposite behavior is the norm for a Nation who's legacy is one of Mesorah rather than Yerusha, is absurd.
Who said 'there is no actual document' of a deal prior to the Rebbes shiduch? And what do you actually mean, that there were no 'Tnoyim' before the engagent?
ReplyDeleteAnd if you are trying to play that you know today's Hebrew it would be 'yech hahevdel HAKATAN'
Just curious:If this was done by the Chabad dynasty, would it in your opinion make it ok? If so, you are basically trying to call the Gerer Rebbes for doing something unethical.Oh, so why are you angry when 'your guys' are called on stuff? (small example would have been if the Rebbe prior to his passing would have cleared up the succession business)
Neereh li,
ReplyDeleteWhat would rebbishe kinder do if there was no succesion, actually get a job like everyone else??
Never!
I like the idiot who claimed that the current Rebbe is 'destroying Ger'
ReplyDeleteOh, yeah?
Ger has not been in such good shape since before the War.
They've managed to get over the radical legacy of another of their Rebbes and the Rebbe has felt powerful enough to actually be on very close terms with Horav Shteinman one of the leaders of the yeshiva world.
There is hardly any machloikes there besides a tiny blip with R'Shoul.He is doing a great job of running his chassidus and actually seems to care about other segments of Jewry.
2 questions:
ReplyDelete1. Someone pls explain the thing with Rebbes shidduch.
2. Why exactly do you say reb Yaakov wasnt next in line after reb Bunims ptire? It seems to me that is was RPM who gained a lot from this deal.
The gadlus of Gur was not in the numbers of chassidim but first of all in their Torah Knowledge. In order to fight his cousin Shaul Alter, who is a torah illuï, the current Rebbe change the way of learning gemara in the ger's yeshivot from lomdus to bekius. Then, he is destroying te gadlus of Gur
ReplyDeleteI don't know much about GUR, but I can say one thing for sure - if it only took one document ( even though it was signed b/4 the levaya ) to keep the Chassidus together without bickering and infighting we can all learn something from it and not turn it into something ugly.
ReplyDeleteLook at the shame of the following to just name a few ....
Bobov
Satmar
Klozenberg
Telz
Mir
etc,..
etc...
etc...
I honestly don't see anything wrong with this document. Everyone knows that he custom in Ger is to have the new Rebbe take over immediately upon the passing of the previous one (I do not recall now if it's during the shiva or right after the levaya). That, by definition, means that some deliberation has to happen in a close proximity to the levaya.
ReplyDeleteAnd, more importantly, why is their way of doing things any of our concern / business?
For those of you who arent so in the know, and the limit of your knowledge of the Gerrer court is based on magazines and websites, it would be worth mentioning that the PM's oldest son is Reb Yaakov Meir from Bnei Brak. So if one would work things in a yerushah manner, he is the bechor and yoresh.
ReplyDeleteActually the whole Gerrer dynasty isnt a yerushah as such. The BY was niftar childless and many even then, thought that today's Rebbe should be appointed Rebbe. It went to his father, then to his uncle and then finally to him, as the BY told the Rebbetzin before her chuppah nearly 50 years ago, that her husband would yet be a Rebbe.
If he wouldve taken the Rebbistive after the petirah of the LS (as per his father's tzavaah which was only found months later, and he commented then that it was Min Hashamayim that it wasnt found earlier) no one would even think that it belonged to the PM and his kids. Because the Rebbe was mevater on something that he deserved rightfully, being the yoresh of his father, there is no doubt that it returned to him after the PM.
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteThis is actually a mature, wonderful idea, not like every other Rebbishe aspirant who sees only their own kovod and glory. This Rebbe managed to show respect for his uncle while still managing to mainatin stability in the long run.
If Gur stands for as a succession of Kotzk thats Emes Emes ad mesirus nefesh, then its beyond me that the kovod should be a issue at all, not only of the children but the entire discussion of who should be Rebbe is ugly, did they discuss who is more botul to Ain Oid Milvado isn't it the opposite of Kotzk? even in Satmar it doesn't look so ugly since its a Rabones involved and thats as old as Jewish history to fight for Rabones Shtele even by real Gedolie Yisroel
ReplyDeleteBut if Gur is only who gets the job of the commander of all the bedroom police then I have no questions
'And, more importantly, why is their way of doing things any of our concern / business?'
ReplyDelete'Berl the diplomat'
Hey, how come when this blog discussed various other yeshivos/kehillos such as Chaim Berlin,Telz etc you did not say that?
In fact you even added 'pearls of wisdom'
There is on thing you do (apparently) using the treadmill.You need to do more of it.
Agree. Only the great Gerrer Rebbe can pull this off. Decorum, respect, and still practical.
ReplyDeleteI cannot beleive that you can criticize this as all other chassidus'n are capsizing in front of us.
Long live Reb Yankel!
Yosef 718
ReplyDeletethe Sanszer Rovs pesak regarding Rebiveste is not being applied today,since a Rebisteve is considered intellectual property of a brand name that major funds are being collected on that name plus every Chassidus owns millions of dollars in real estate. This is the view in todays Botie Dinim, I saw lately a huge Sefer from Kohen a famous toen from Kiryath Sanz claiming that the pesak is not relevant today.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteIs Chasidus today Walmart?
Big Practical And CHEAP
Then Reb Yankel is the Tzadik Hador
Re: shidduch etc.: There is no shtar - if there was, then taf shin yud would have been a non issue.... Veak"m
ReplyDeleteY"T Sheini
where is the tzetel that the rebbe signed for RSG and then violated by opening Ohalai Torah,why don you show it?
ReplyDeleteI know of no such tzetel. What I DO know is the fact that the Rebbe had little say in T"T even as Rebbe, would not be tolerated anywhere else, and speaks volumes as to the respect the Rebbe had for his B-I-L.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what silver is smoking, but I definitely want some of that.
ReplyDeleteTh reality is the rebbe is in control by sheer thuggery. Anybody who voices any allegiance to Reb Shoul has literally had the pulp beaten out of them.
Whilst the numbers in ger are the biggest they have ever been, the negative ratings of the rebbe are also the highest they have ever been.
Ger has a great social welfare system (mostly with money meant for other streams of yiddishkeit which litzmn has generously volunteered to spend).
All in all, it is a cult where they pay their members to belong --but their allegiance is only shekel deep.
feivy,
ReplyDeleteContrary to your claim, not only did I never add any 'pearls of wisdom' to the discussions of "various other yeshivos/kehillos such as Chaim Berlin, Telz" on this or any other blog, I don't even bother reading most of the post on those topics – I simply couldn't possibly care less what these people do...
It so happens that I remember what happened the first Shabbos after the Lev Simchoh's passing: the norm in Ger is that that the Rebbe gets birchas hazimun. The Pnei Menachem and the current Rebbe were arguing - each one saying tha the other should bensh. Finally the current Rebbe accepted and said: "birshus adoneinu moreinu verabeinu...", thus in effect proclaiming the Pnei Menachem as Rebbe, and that was it. He showed humility and extra-ordinary midos. I also heard that (earlier? later?) the Pnei Menachem argued with the current Rebbe, saying that his brother the Lev Simchah wanted his son to be Rebbe; to which the current Rebbe replied something like "so what is the rush that it has to be now." With all due respect to R. Shaul shlita, the current Rebbe is undoubtedly a odom godol and no doubt a ma'avir al midosov fully deservant of the Rebistve. Also, let's not forget that his father was so no less: people wondered at the time about his rebistve, after all he had always been a businessman (shades of the first Reb Bunim of Pshis'che), and thought that he would be a short-term compromise until the succession to Beis Yisroel could be settled. The Lev Simchah, who now became disclosed as a ga'on atzum, even stated that out loud at the first tish in his famous "dor dor vedorshov"-sichah, and turned into a very effective and strong rebbe or much longer than anyone had anticipated, taking even stronger positions in policies than the Beis Yisroel
ReplyDeleteR Yankel Alter shlita is a great fan of the rebbe, why would you embarras him?
ReplyDelete"What I DO know is the fact that the Rebbe had little say in T"T even as Rebbe, would not be tolerated anywhere else, and speaks volumes as to the respect the Rebbe had for his B-I-L."
ReplyDeleteWhat you mean to say is that the Rebbe, in spite of being the official nassi of the Yeshivah, did not interfere with the Yeshivah and its running by his brother-in-law - because he felt that this is his b-i-l's domain to which he had been appointed by their father-in-law. Only after the incident of singing Hatikvah at a Yshivah-dinner did he remove his nesi'ut from the Yeshivah as this was a violation of Chabad-policy. Even thereafter he encouraged and supported his b-i-l in all maters of the yeshivah.
Neo
ReplyDeleteSeeing this letter even a non cynic would conclude that the bentching thing was a cheap mimicking of the Kotzker and the Chidushei Harim for people who know the history
I personal love the Pnie Menachem, his Torah and his style but I feel that after seeing the agreement he looks worse then his nephew.
ReplyDeleteSome notes :
ReplyDeleteEven though the Imre Emes had sons who were gedolim (eg Reb Meir the bechor and the Bais Israel) in his Tzavooh dating prior to the War he left the rEbbistve to his brother Reb Moshe Bezalel Alter, so there was precedence for what happened.
The issue if a deceased person can control yerusha after his death such as you suggest the lev Simcha wanted, is also raised in the current machlokes in Bobov. The claim was made that Rav Naftolche was to be rebbe and not his children and ten the nesius would revert to Reb Ben Zion laibush.There two these issues arise and they have been discussed in several kuntresim recently published.
Finally I am waiting for a Mar BeRav Ashi in CH to write aboout the Tnaaim the 2 sides agreed (Reb Levik and the Rayaatz) when the Ramash married his wife. I have a nice little anecdote from another eynikel about that ...
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteNeo
Seeing this letter even a non cynic would conclude that the bentching thing was a cheap mimicking of the Kotzker and the Chidushei Harim for people who know the history
_____
This is an unwarranted cheap-shot, as is the your subsequent comment re the Pnei Menachem, for which you should apologize. I am amazed (in sense of shocked) how commenters here have the unbelievable chutzpah to make cavalier statements about giants they know hardly anything about, and the how's and why's of tzadikim's dealings. If they had the slightest fraction of humility of theirs, and even the slightest notion of hanhogos hatzadikim and their cheshbonos, they would not dare say the things they do. But as the Rebe Reshab said: the crude person sees everything crudely, while the noble person recognizes nobility.
"Finally I am waiting for a Mar BeRav Ashi in CH to write aboout the Tnaaim the 2 sides agreed (Reb Levik and the Rayaatz) when the Ramash married his wife. I have a nice little anecdote from another eynikel about that ..."
ReplyDeleteThose "tnaaim" is an unfounded and unverifiable invention of S. Deutsch. He claims to know a private conversation under 4 eyes between the Reyatz and Rebbetzen Chanah - which was not related by either party. Thus pure speculation filtered through the conspiracy-minded brain of a revisionist "historian" Deutsch. As for the reliability of the "einikel's" anecdotes, they don't stand the test even of conspiracy-minded cybics. Both your sources, D and the einikel are hardly trustworthy to anybody's mind except for those looking to spread shmutz.
Anon 11.01
ReplyDeleteYou are typical of posters on this and other forums where people post vile lies as facts.
Reb Shoul is persona non grata with the rebbe --and most chassidim --as they are worried that people in the rebbes inner circle will see them acknowledging Reb Shoul and have to face the music. Reb Shoul's kids have difficulty making shidduchim b/c people are so intimidated by the rebbe and his goons.
I have personally witnessed Reb Shoul being mesader kiddushin and walking away from the chupa without ANYONE acknowledging him b/c of fear of the thugs and goons in ger.
Neo
ReplyDeleteAs I wrote u before I see the Penai Menachem as the real Gerer Rebbe in his torah and in his Hanhoges Hachasidim he was great but it all leaves us with a bitter taste the letter.
Schneur
ReplyDeleteWho is the source of the Reb Levik tenoim deal besides Shimmy Deutsch and your dyslexic friend?
If they wouldn't be Chabad haters you would never talk to them on the street.
Can somone write a summary of this for those of us not in the Know?
ReplyDeleteHershel,
ReplyDeleteMy problem with this "deal" and the tenayim story is that it makes a rabistave into a property that can be passed down. This is what is ruining Bobov, Telz, Klausenberg and Ger. (The only difference with Ger is that to date they have been very successful at keeping it quiet, but there is a terror campaign going on against the PM's children and I'm in the know). Assuming the Benzion version of Bobov is true, can his father decide who should be Rebbe in future years? Don't people have the right to decide? The PM letter has the same problem. Let's assume he would have been maarich yomim until age 80 like his brother the LS. Wouldn't the oilam be the ones to decide who should take over?
BTW, the Rayatz wrote a tzava'ah that was never found. This is not a shimmy deitsch fantasy. It is mentioned in a letter from the early 1940's. The theory (no verification) is that BG found it and destroyed it.
I don't know if this fits in to this particular series of blogs but I think it's totally appropiate.Certainly for this time of the year
ReplyDeletehttp://www.col.org.il/pics/inbox/2323267_1494671.
באווירת ימי שלושת השבועות, מגיש COL קטע חזנות מצמרר של האחים הורביץ
קטע חזנות מצמרר של האחים הורביץ - בלב מחנה ההשמדה הנאצי 'איזנשטט'. בקטע הוידאו נראים: ר' שולם הורביץ' מקראון-הייטס, החזן צביקה הורביץ' מירושלים ור' דוד הורביץ מלוד. לצידם עומדים "מקהלת שירת הלווים"http://www.col.org.il/pics/inbox/2323267_1494671.wmv
Arthur.
ReplyDeleteThanks a million for this fantastic piece.
"http://www.col.org.il/pics/inbox/2323267_1494671.wmv
Who are these great chazzonim? Moving! How appropriate for this time of year, when everyone is busy doing loshon hora and sinas chinom.
Thanks again
One other point re the fable (not even urban myth) of the so-called "tno'im": It is inconceivable to any right-mindd person that Rebbetzen Chana would suggest to the Rayatz something to happen after a histalkus of the Rayatz. That would have been crude in the vilest sense, especially right after the Rayatz had suffered from a very dangerous, life-threatening illness,as well as a denial in the belief of an imminent coming of Moshiach. The only thing cruder than that is Shimmy Deutsch (and if the einikel went along, he, too) to make up such a horrifying fantasy.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, for a makeh bepatish, if such a conversation had taken place with such an agreement, then why argue about the sucession: by this reasoning, the Rayatz clearly agreed and determined that the Remash should succeed him! Thus either way, SD and the 'einikel' are way off basea nd beyond the pale, and so is Shneur with his stubborn blind following and acceptance of anything SD and the 'einikel' claim.
Schneur
ReplyDeletea anectode I would like to share with you of the real Chabad Rebbe
כן, מאד מבחוץ. התפעלתי בעצמי עד כמה.
בעת החקירות ודרישות שלו (לפני המשפט, בראשית תשמ"ו) הוא סיפר, שאחרי הסתלקות הרבי הקודם, היו שלוש מועמדים לנשיאות חב"ד, הרבי, הרש"ג, והוא עצמו.
זה היה (קצת) מגוחך.
העו"ד של חב"ד שאל אותו: מהו הספר היסוד של חב"ד.
השיב בערי: תניא.
שאל העו"ד של חב"ד: מהו תוכן חמשת חלקיו?
השיב בערי: חמשה חלקים? יש רק תניא אחד.
שאל העו"ד של חב"ד: אתה אפילו לא יודע את תוכן חמשת החלקים של התניא, ואתה מדבר על עצמך כמועמד לנשיאות חב"ד?
בערי השיב בשתיקה.
על תקן זה יש לקבל את אמרותיו המחכימות בקשר לנסיעה לציון של הרבי הקודם.
Look at the first Story on yeshiva world
ReplyDeleteNeo-Kabbalist, at the time I heard another version of the bentching saga. At that Shabbos seudah both RMP an RY shlita were mechabed each other to bentch. The stalemate was broken by RY, by saying, bentch (i.e. take the Rebistiva) "un mach is kurtz un sharf". Which is what actually occured.
ReplyDeleteI used to think that the espression "the shluchim are the Rebbe's children" was mere hyperbole. But after seeing how "head shluchim" treat "their teritory" as a yerusho protis from the Rebbe, I can see how the signon applies literally.
ReplyDeleteFriendly
ReplyDeleteyou are at the wrong post, you have to bark at a different tree.
btw
ReplyDeletethe new gere derech halimuds peiros are already being reaped. it works!
dirshu anybody?
I know...I just had to get that off my chest...I feel better now
ReplyDeleteGer is a great chassidus, movement of the Chidushe Harim and Peshischa-Kotsk, and it got buried in this 'kedisha' war, which means that wannabe bankers sit and eat steak and discuss stocks while their (shhh wives) slave away at home.
ReplyDeletekedisha.
What I believe is bothering Hirshel in his post is perhaps not that the 2 families or individuals discussed the succesion, but the lack of trust and the need to have this agreement in writing and signed. That one would not accept the others word alone is staggering.
ReplyDeleteIs it true about Ger Kedusha standards?
ReplyDelete"the lack of trust and the need to have this agreement in writing and signed."
ReplyDeleteWell, people sign contracts all the time, and not due to lack of trust only. Putting something in writing clarifies things and goes a long way to avoiding misunderstanding later. You do not want to sign a contract with someone you don't trust.
The role played by Rebbitzen in all of this can not be underestimated. R' Shaul's influence has grown in part because he is the dominant Gerer in Yerushalayim.
ReplyDeleteRY wife resisted moving from Bnei Brak to the historical seat of Ger in J'slem. Having just completed building her dream home in BB, she was not inclined to leave it just because of the Pnei Menachem's petira.
This has caused difficulty in access to the Rebbe and resentment amongst the chassidim.
Double Helix,
ReplyDeleteYou can also add to the mix the popularity of the PM's almanah in gerer circles. She is very outgoing, travels (or used to travel) overseas to meet with gerer women around the world. She is a strong warm personality who very quietly has been pushing her son front and center.
Double Helix
ReplyDeleteAll your explanations about this influence or that influence for Reb Shaul is nonsense, the guy is a genius with Charisma, did you ever see him by a shiur, He once gave a shiur on a Sugia in BP, the crowd of 700 to 1000 people went gaga for him.
this would never happen in any other place then Ger with their herd mentality.
Gerrer Chassidim have a herd mentality ?
ReplyDeleteAre Gerers mikayim the mitzvah of Onah or is all that stuff myths. I would like to hear from a real informed source not from the fryaks
ReplyDeletethat was NOT the point of this post. Go to HydePark and found out there. Please.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:00:00 PM, you may have misunderstood my intentions. If Reb Shaul didn't have the qualities and abilities this wouldn't be a discussion issue. It is the rarity of a potential alternate rebistive that is so intriguing. Reb Shaul is renowned for being an exceptional person.
ReplyDeletecool post!
ReplyDeleteRav Shaul Is A Gaon Olam
ReplyDeleteענייני דיומא
ReplyDeleteTime for a refresh of this topic, won't u say?
ReplyDeleteזייער גשמאק דורך צו ליינען דער גאנצע שמוז יעצט, אינטערסנט צו זען די הנחות פון דער חשובער עולם פון אזוי לאנג צוריק
ReplyDelete