I know it sounds Christian but that's the fact. They died in service of us. And I don't only mean the Holtzbergs. I believe even the biggest detractors of Chabad would agree that every yid has an achrayus to get up and save other yidden begashmius. Maybe we rely on certain groups to provide the gashmius, and on other groups to provide the ruchnius... Leibish Teitelbaum and Bentzi Kroman died so that you could enjoy mushrooms on your blintzes and crepes, and G-d knows what other delicacies. For a yid like Reb Leibish, growing up in Boro Park to very devout parents and later moving to an even more sheltered environment - marrying into the Toldos Aharon/Avrohom Yitzchok family - it cannot be easy traveling to the Far East and dealing with the filth and dirt, the uncleanliness and the unholiness. Yet he did it loyally to help his father and to provide for his children. Remember that next time you but that stuff. Lost in the shuffle is the fact that Yiddishe Parnossoh Kumt Nisht Ohn Gring, and sometimes it may very well kill you.
R'Leibish Teitelbaum was from Boro Park, not as you said,Willy
ReplyDelete"I know it sounds Christian but that's the fact."
ReplyDeleteso lubabs do not refrain from sounding like Christians but will make sure do not appear like any other frum group
speaking of dirt and filth.
ReplyDeletewhen one think of India one thinks of friendly simple and open poor people. people who do the dirty work indeed, often outsourced dirty work.
when one thinks of BP one thinks of people who are unfriendly and harsh and mean to everyone who is not from the club. They live in mansions and don't work. A much worse dirt and filth to deal with in my book.
And the prof of it, you would not find Israeli touring BT after the army, no the go to India by the thousands and they remember it as the land of light and happiness.
Hens the tremendous cultural influence on Israel. Indeed today India is more important for the Israeli culture than Europe.
BP not BT,a slip
ReplyDeletein BP they have to write books and establish shiurim about how to treat visitors (u cannot even park your car!someone is ready to take your parking spot)
ReplyDeleteDon't tell me about KY ,that nobody comes)
Yes Israelim would hate BP,THEY also like to go to Sout America, and in many places like Cuzco (Peru), Bariloche(south of Argentina),Bahia (Brazil), they fill at home
Chabad is doing an amazing job in these places
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"I know it sounds Christian but that's the fact."
so lubabs do not refrain from sounding like Christians but will make sure do not appear like any other frum group"
Tzig why do you allow remarks like the one above or the one from Chaim of notorious fame that adds nothing intelligent or pertinent, except for sinas chinom, at a time like this or for that matter any other time?
The moment they use the word "Lubabs" you know where their coming from.I realize that I made a mistake by answering Chaim as Zalemen Shimon pointed out to me.These posts by the dregs of the earth should not be recognized by publishing them or responding to their hate filled posts even though I find it difficult, as many others do, not to.
anon 4:14pm: um, you're a shmuck.
ReplyDeleteanon 7:73 PM, you are a moron.
ReplyDeleteall anons are morons by definition.
HT, Well said.
ReplyDeleteDid I say anything so terrible? Why did you delete my post?
ReplyDeleteEven though you refused to answer my previous query I will forgive (but only this time)
ReplyDeletehttp://holtzbergmumbai.blogspot.com/
Arthur
ReplyDeletebelieve me when I tell you: I deleted no comment of yours.
"Arthur
ReplyDeletebelieve me when I tell you: I deleted no comment of yours."
Sorry. I must have missed it.
Arthur said: "..allow remarks like the one above or the one from Chaim of notorious fame"
ReplyDeleteThen later arthur asks Tzig in panic.."Did I say anything so terrible? Why did you delete my post?"
Im famous? Im famous. This is exciting.
All I gotta do is say a couple of words at the circus and you get some circus freak calling you daddy. Listen Arthur, I dont know what your taking, but I have made about 3 or 4 posts here since about 4-5 weeks ago, and I think I may have even posted under anonymous. So just try to relax, no ones gonna hurt you, Tzigs not deleting your pearls of wisdom, Try to think nice cozy thoughts, ok? Every things gonna be work out in the end.
BTW are you the arthur of notorious fame who blogs on the internet? Ive seen you posts.
In all seriousness Hershel, I have looked at some previous posts by Arthur on this site, his posts are frequently full of hate finger pointing. Hate and finger pointing on a day like today, when the kedoshim have not even been buried, and we are still in shock is a little hard for the rest of us to swallow.
Bet ich eich, ah bisel rachmunus.
Ich Hob Rachmonus - oyf unz alle.
ReplyDeleteThey're in a better place, the best place.
HT said...."They're in a better place, the best place."
ReplyDeleteYes, we need to keep on telling this to ourselves. We are the ones suffering down here, not them. They are kedoshim who are in gan eiden whos blood was spilled for the sake of klal yisroel.
If your not the "Chaim" I'm referring to, I truly apologize.As to my finger pointing etc. I'm sorry that you look at them that way but they were in response to some real nasty assertions about the Rebbe and Chabad in general and I couldn't sit still without responding.
ReplyDeleteAs far as it "sounding X-tian".
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Chazal saying that מיתת צדיקים מכפרת is a result of Cultural osmosis from their X-tian neighbors?
Are you aware that the author of the sefer יון המצולה says that the kedoshim of גזירות ת"ח ות"ט died to be מכפר על בני דורם? Or that in his valedictory address to other Nazi Victims Rav Elchono Wasserman HY"D told Kovna Yidden about to be taken for execution at the Ninth Fort not to have any untoward/pigul thoughts lest they pasel themselves as korbonos on behalf of American Jewry?
There are many things that goyim both X-tian and Muslim, ripped off from us and made them cenetrpieces of their religion. It does not mean that we should stop considering them Jewish.
The concept of jettisoning planks in the Jewish platform because of מעיקרא אהובה והשתא שנואה needs to be applied judiciously and requires a Gadlishe Khush.
Nice Bray.. beat me to it.
ReplyDeleteIts a katnus in Tzig that he wrote wrong.
Nonetheless poignant perspective.
Died so we all can have spice...more attractive gashmiyus.
Why would anyone want to go to BP?
I also reject the notion that they died so that we could eat mushroom blintzes.
ReplyDeleteI presume that they were among the nohrmahleh mentchen for whom גופם חביבים עליהם מממונם. If you want to say that on a cosmic level for reasons known and knowable only to the לו נתכנו עלילות He chose these kosherah Yidden to die to be a kapporah for the rest of us...OK. But do you doubt for a moment that if they had any inkling that greater dangers to life, neshoma and limb than third world dirt and Indian avodah Zorah were being posed, that they would have given up this particular hashgocha?
The shliach and his family are another story entirely. They didn't just die ahl kiddush HaShem they lived Ahl kiddush HaShem. Being away from family friends and Jewish infrastructure and amenities and their labor intensive hakhnosas orkhim was mesiras nefesh of a different order.
I'm curious to know if there is any buzz in Chabad of shluchim in similarly dangerous outposts now running scared and wanting out?
I'm not accusing them of doing so but it would be superhuman not to at least be a little bit rattled, especially the Rebitzins.
Bray,
ReplyDelete@9:18, very well said. Indeed, many jewish concepts that have been 'christianized', worth discussion at a more apropos moment.
as to your 11:46 post, a shliach from aother city in India hosted Shabbos Toldos IN MUMBAI for 40 Orchim (location undisclosed for obvious reasons). Futhermore, new shliach on his way/or to leave soon for Mumbai. Reportadly, there were A NUMBER of applicants for the position.
The rule of Kal V'Choimer may apply, but in any event there have been no reports of anyone having second thoughts, although security is now part of the game plan.
I thought this week would elapse with a new respect for Chabad for me given the sacrifices of R Gavriel and Rivky in Bombay. I thought it would be enough to say that they died a senseless death while trying to provide some hospitality and food for people far from their own homes, and while trying to have a nice shul for various minyanim as well. Obviously I was wrong. For Lubavitchers like Tzig it is not enough to lament a senseless tragedy or to note the good deeds of the niftarim. Instead everything must become part of some made for TV Lubavitch spiritual psychodrama where someone died for someone's sins. Obviously the Mushroom Guy and the Shnitzel cooking shluchim arent just there to give hashgacha to give out kugel. NO! There is tremendous metaphysical significance behind this. The terrorists are not just deranged Muslim youths who are terribly antiSemitic. NO! They are the Samech Mem battling the Rebbe for control of the universe.
ReplyDeleteThe upshot is that the epic battle continues, and could we please make a donation to the R Gavriel and Rivka memorial fund....
I guess my week of newfound respect for Chabad did not last very long.
Oh, and just want to go on record,
ReplyDeletein honor of the kedoshim, will refrain from responding this week to some of those vitriolic comments posted. Makes you wonder how certain people’s parents raised them. I really do feel sorry for them though, and their families that have no choice but to live with them.
Oh, and if your gut hasn't been wrenched enough...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfOVcgc7Ies
Josh
ReplyDeleteI guess my thought that you can understand what I wrote didn't last very long either...
ואמונתך בלילות
ReplyDeleteAll I said was that we should appreciate the fact that these 2 mashgichim were there for us, making sure we have those essential ingredients.
ReplyDeletewhere did I say anything about Chabad or Rebbe? or anything about money?
you're just a wee bit paranoid here, Josh. Seeing things that aren't there.
Mushrooms were kosher before the Volver Rov got there.
ReplyDeleteTzig : In Classic Judaism tragedies were not treated with cries that they died for us rather with calls for a cheshbon Hanefesh !! Why did these tragedies happen? Rather than say they died for us you might be able to say they died on account of .... sins (as if we know why) But the classic Jewish way enumerated by among others the Rambam was a call for introspection and a call for Teshuva (Nachpesha Darkeinu ...) and a call for deeds to rectify these tragedies. Thus in Europe during a plague , Jews married off orphans etc etc.
ReplyDeleteLaunching an appeal for the families is hardly a bad thing , but it MUST be accompanied by a call for introspection by members of the respective comunities of the victims. I would be impressed if the world wide Lubavitch community especially the Shluchim issued such a call for intropspection and Teshuvah . Perhaps we are doing something wrong ? -- . When someone in WH was killed a few years ago (Mr. Jack gerstle Hayad) we did not call for a money appeal rather for a cheshbon hanefesh an introspective moment !
But I guess since you among others know that they died for us , there is no need for introspection.
Reb Elchonon wore false teeth and did not have them when he was in the 9th Fort (the killing place in Kovna) and no one could make out what he said. Who was there who heard him ? Aderabba who was it who heard him ? This was a nice story made up by the American Orthodox Jews who were in the Pioneer Country Club between 1941-1945.
Schneur
ReplyDeleteI'd dare say that in WH you could lose your house before they realized they need to help you. I guess they trust that G-d will help you...
As far as Reb Elchonon goes: I believe in Kovetz Shiurim they say the stroy b'shem his son Reb Simcha who survived, no?
But I did get a good laugh from the "false teeth" alibi, albeit at the expense of the Kedoshei Kovno....
Reb Simcha Wasserman was in France during the War and did not see or hear his father when he died.
ReplyDeleteKovetz Shiurim is not a living organism . The shiurim were delivered prior to the War.
One thing I did learn from the late Satmarer rebbe Rav Yoelish ZT"L beware of Maayses !
Although I am not a member of KAJ in WH , the kehillo is one of the most generous institutions in the country. The Chevra Kadisha and the various gamachs here help people with generous donations if not in the publicity driven manner of Brooklyn and Lakewood.
As far as false teeth go , this story was first printed in the Algemeiner Journal years ago by the late Holocaust scholar Dr. Hillel Seidman of Warsaw .
Reb Elchonon's gadlus does not rest on his teeth, but without them his speech was not comprehensible.
By the way when the Rayaatz came to America knowing the killing in Poland his chief thrust was introspection and Teshuva.
ReplyDeleteThat should be the thrust today by the Lubavitch movement in general and World Jewry.
Schneur
ReplyDeletei don't think the main thrust today is shnorring. Introspection, Hosofoh in Mitzvos seems to be front and center. And lots of crying too.
Schneur-
ReplyDeleteI agree that it is wise to greet masiyos with skepticism. But my cites from Chazal and yevain HaMetzulah stand.
X-tians did not invent the concept od A dying to atone for the sins of B.
Whetehr its application is appropriate in this case is AFAIC
בהדי כבשא דרחמנא למה לי?
Shneur
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe Rayatz instantly after his arrival on our shores,was more in the building mode then in the crying mode. he said sharfe sichos and wrote sharfe mystical words in Hakria Vehakdisha, but his motto was to build a other yeshiva and a other chede etc..
Schneur
ReplyDeleteMisas Tzadikim Mechaperes is a famous theme in all the deroshos hespeidim in the Derush seforim and usualy they discuss that it could be that the tzadik left our world that he shouldn't see the upcoming events Reb Yoelish of Satmar discuses this subject at length in his Hesped on Belzer Rov (Reb Yisoscher Dov)
Schneur
ReplyDeleteIt seems our generation is suffering of lack of Tzenios in all aspects, that could be the reason of the demise of the Washington Heights Kehila. Lately by the Yartziet of RSR Hirsch rabbis like Becherhoffer decried the situation in a very candid way. Azus dekdisha is the only way for succeeding in our tumultuous era.
WTH?
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous 7:06 PM,
ReplyDeletethank you for bringing up the posuk (Chabakuk?) "hatzadik ovad min ho'oretz v'ein ish som al leiv ki mipney horo'oh ne'esof hatzadik".
But on a more hopeful note, I would say that riches follows a sreyfo, as rachamim follows din, and we will now see increased hatzlocho for all klal yisroel.
Everything people wrote here is emes veyatziv, but the lack of an introspective mode by Lubavitch in this case is remarkable. In classic Judaism tragedy is followed by introspection. The Rayaatz did not just sit down and start yeshivas here , he also started HaKeriah VeHakedusha and his remarkable Kol Kores to American Jewry. As rabbi Zalman Schneersohn once wrote " dos benk ich noch in Lubavitch." This introspection which in my opinion is the essence of classic Chabad philosophy is totally lacking in todays Chabad. A bachur is always on the go never rest , never think about what he is doing, on a cheshbon hanefesh, just keep on doing, action . Clearly the last Rebbe's engineering background is at play here.
ReplyDeleteשניאור האט היינט פארגעסן נעמען די פילען......
ReplyDeleteI couldn't get to CH to purchase them on the street... so I will get them in our local drug bazaar.
ReplyDeleteSchneur
ReplyDeleteI assume you are weekly visitor in the hall of Oholie Torah by the Thursday night farbrengens,