There's an old Chassidisher Vort that captures the essence of this picture. The Tzaddik Reb Hillel Paritcher (not to be confused with Meir Paritcher, for those who know Meir Paritcher was Reb Meir Chodosh, father of Shulamit Ezrachi and mashgiach of the Chevron and Ateres Yeshivos in Israel) once said the following: [ The truth is that the Rebbe once mentioned it a farbrengen and was wary of the fact that misnagdim would "pick up on it" and make hay, but he mentioned it nevertheless. ] had Shlomo haMelech known about the love between a Rebbe and Chossid and a Chossid and his Rebbe he would've written Shir HaShirim using that love as his moshul instead of the moshul he uses. Now before you jump out of your seats, think of Reb Hillel (and I hold my breath when I say this) as somebody of the caliber of Reb Yisroel Salanter or the Alter fun Kelm, that way you'll accept his words with a clear conscience no matter how radical it may seem to you. That's the world we live in and I'm getting close to accepting it. Reb Hillel is telling us that the greatest form of love is that which exists between Rebbe and Chossid. Radical words indeed....
Let's examine these words, shall we? and maybe at that time examine why we shy away from the word "love" in general. We can help ourselves understand the concept of "loving the Rebbe" by taking a deep look at the above picture. You may not see it, but what I see is love and admiration for the Rebbe here. You can get a hundred people and have them surround your favorite Rosh Yeshivah, but it's not love. You can have a hundred thousand people at a man's levaya, but it still may not be love. It may be admiration, respect, fear or awe, but it still won't be love. The picture here says love. Love like a father to his son and like a child to his father. Now, you may ask why is love important at all? I think we can leave that for a later date. It's Erev Shabbos and the Tzig has errands to run. In the meantime enjoy the beautiful picture, maybe listen to the clip of Reb Hillel's nigun, and have yourselves a wonderful Shabbos, no matter how you celebrate it. I'll try and say the whole Tehillim tomorrow morning and do some Torah studying as well.
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it seems that the rebbe was wearing a bent up hat
ReplyDeleteI didn't even finish reading this post, but before I do, this vort if famously attributed to Reb Aizik. Do you have an actual source that it was Rbe Hillel (not to mention that is is not in his style at all)?
ReplyDeleteThank you!
ReplyDeleteAs I've said previously,Lubavitch is a cult!
"Love" the Rebbe with more passion than the moshol of shi hashirim?
Cult.
Btw, in this pic I don't see "love" I see 'koolaid".Loads of it.
Obviously in places that silly vertlach like you bring the next step is to say that the Rebbe is "atzmus umahus".Next step?The Rebbe cannot pass on.
Oh!That's what Lubavitch are already claiming!
Lastly,you did not even know the Rebbe.You got to visit at the time where you could have not relationship besides a dollar.If you acquired such "love" without knowing the man (if you consider him "man)than you are stam a baal dimyon aka "koolaided"
Umseyamim betov.
This is a staged spectacle intended to impress such yo-yos like you, it has nothing to do with love,it's a standard photo op where everyone in the picture is out for something to gain.
ReplyDeleteEdited for Stupidity
Berl
ReplyDeleteyou're probably right.
I'll double-check.
it's not love, it's enthralled.
ReplyDeletethey were all (nebach) caught-up with his charisma, take that away and there's nothing left.
beside i know many who love their rosheshiva like a father, just because you've never seen it...
in your head loving someone's torah, is second to loving the person themselves
What year is that picture from?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think Reb Aizik actually said something like, "Fun Shir Hashirim zet men az Shleimo Hamelech is given a misnaged... Volt er given a chosid, volt er gekileben a moshul fun ahavoh tzuvishen a rebbe un a chosid, un nit..."
ReplyDeleteThis vort is dripping with caustic irony (not directed at Shlomo Hamelech) and is not just a sanitized "lesson" praising the Rebbe-chosid relationship. I will not explain the obvious. :)
About "Gedalya Said"
ReplyDeleteKool aid,Shmuel aid.Whats with this "Kool Aid" bit that seems to be in fashion with the bashers lately?Hoben zay dos gehert fun der Rosh Hayishiva shlita?
The Rebbe was definitely a bal moifes "The truth is that the Rebbe once mentioned it a farbrengen and was wary of the fact that misnagdim would "pick up on it" and make hay" and shoin LOL here we have some jerk,Gedalya and the other genius Photo op, just as the Rebbe predicted, picking up on it with their fardumte comments.
Walla!
ReplyDeleteSo The Tzig is already backtracking???
Does not matter who said this "vort", you immediately accepted such a crazy idea as legitimate!
Did I say you overdosed on Koolaid??
Btw,as usual Berl uses bombastic launguage that nobody,even Berl himself gets,but it makes him sound "smart"
"Caustic irony"? Berl, you had to much l'chaim today?Also,what is the "obvious" that you will not "explain"?
Cult
Anonymous 3:14
ReplyDeleteGoogle Jim Jones and find out what happens when cult members drink to much spiked kool aid
Who is the rabbi sitting at the table between the Rebbe and the Rashag?
ReplyDeleteGedalya
ReplyDeleteThe Menchas Elozor once said that if you cut open the heart of a misnaged you will find a tzeilem and even if you don't find one vet zein mit ain misnaged vintzeger.
Yehupitz:
ReplyDeleteהרב אפרים אליעזר הכהן יאלעס זצ"ל
Of Philadelphia
"Google Jim Jones and find out what happens when cult members drink to much spiked kool aid"
ReplyDeleteLike I said,you heard it from your Rosh Yeshiva.
Gedalya,
ReplyDeleteCult Shmult, ahavas Raboi was not invented today di ferd,
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteDo these chabad haters have a basement in Lakewood or Philie. where they have a war room for rapid rebuttals? lately they are fierce and quick. Did Bernie Maidoff sponsor them..
Instructive that you had to dig up a picture from 40 years ago to illustrate your point
ReplyDeleteFriend:
ReplyDeleteNo, it's just that this point came to mind when seeing this picture.
הירשעלע
ReplyDeleteהאסט געמיינט אז דו וועסט זיין קליגער פון רבי'ן, זע וואס איז געשען.
מענדל
I have to tell you that this is not only by rebbes and chassidim. As someone who learnt by Maran Horav Shach i can be meiid that the love the talmidim felt from and for him was indescribable. There was nothing separating you and Maran you would go over to him and feel comfortable telling him all your fears and problems like a beloved grandfather.
ReplyDeleteTo those who question the relationship a chossid has with a Rebbe ... I heared from Dr. Feldman in CH .. who attended to the Rebbetzin coutless of times ... that the Rebbetztin would frequently ask him about the well being of random families in Lubavitch and would mention the names of their children. Needless to say the Doc. was blown away by the fact that she knew such personal details of so many families in Lubavitch.
ReplyDeleteas an outsider i don't see any evidence of love from this picture
ReplyDeleteyou see what you expect to say
where do i get some off this mythical koolaid from im dying to get some.
ReplyDeleteIf you can see anything more in this picture than people listening attentively, then I have a bridge to sell you, or better yet, a Moshiach to sell you.
ReplyDeleteMoshiach? what's that? Did your 1st grade Rebbi sell you a boat that there's a Moshiach waiting to come down from Heaven on a donkey?
ReplyDeletehaha, you fool. he got you good.
No, my seventh grade Rebbe didn't stop hocking us, that Moshiach is here, and waiting to be megalah himself, but because we're not ready to accept him he needs to be hidden. Something about limateh miasareh tefachim mamesh. At one point he got so enraged he said "You are all worse than misnagdim, they are born from the sitrah acher, but you were all born a chelek elokai mimal, and youre all worse than a mumar lihachis." He almost gave himself a heart attack there in class. But he was a good melamed. That was in 1996.
ReplyDeleteI always thought that in Chabad a rebbe is a a spiritual guide.
ReplyDeleteOf course there was the concept of Hiskashrus nad mesiras Ratzon , and bittul hayesh to the rebbe.
I am certain many chassidim tried to behave in this manor. But if you read the Chabad zichrenes literature and other chatty material you get the feeling that many Chassidim (some?)had an "objective" assesment of their rebbe.
Respect, hero worship, the icon of a movement , communal leader, son or grandson of the leader all the above INDEED , but Love in the manor of the way you describe it ? Maybe?
Bere Gourary always told me that men like Chatze Feigin were tremendously loyal to the Rayaatz, but disagreed with him on policy matters and these disputes erupted into shouting matches between Chatzie and the Rayaatz.
Finally I fail to see this love in the picture.Bittul -yes.
Also lets say there is love, why the need to say that no one else has love. Frankly watching my rebbe 's face when mentioning the Chafetz Chaim was enough to imbue me with how much the CC was loved by all Lithuanian Jewry !
About love Chassidic tradition says that the berdichever's love was in the bechina ze leumas ze, at that time Romantic love and its abizarayahu was spreading throughout Europe so G-D sent the Berdichever with true love. Perhaps too the Rebbe was the ideal of true love in our age when so called "Love "was popular in the 1960's with the flower children.
Schneur
ReplyDeleteThe statement is from Reb Eizel he was the first chosid to introduce poilishe style hiskashrus to Chabad. Mondshine had a long article in Pardes Chabad on Reb Eizels hiskashrus,
Since Bere's statements are not objective its a waste to discuss them. In his letters Feigin comes across as a big time mekushar unless your buddy Bere claimed he was a phony.The chassidim as Reb Itche Masmid,Reb Nissan, Reb Elye Yachil, Althouse and Pariz and many others were all hi volt mekushorim,
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteSo you see love in this picture, big deal!
It only proves how non objective you are and how you only see the world through the blind eyes of a lost soul.
You only see what your eyes want you to see.
In 1922 there were many Russians who only saw love in the eyes of Joseph Stalin.
It is just as plausible to see what the others are seeing, enthrallment and bitul, as it is to see love.
Take a look at a picture of the crowd by a David Copperfield show, the expressions on their faces is the same.
Nobody will argue the fact that the Rebbe was a tremendous orator. He won over thousands with his masterful speeches. There may have been love there too, but his charisma is what won people over.
And lastly, you sound like a bigger fool than you normally do when you say that there is no love by Roshei Yeshivos.
Just as long as you concede that Shlomo Hamelech was a Misnaged… :-)
ReplyDelete(Does that include the rest of Malchus Bais Dovid?)
"Nobody will argue the fact that the Rebbe was a tremendous orator"
ReplyDeleteThsin suv,
Most of your post was spot on, besides for the above.The Rebbe talking style was totally not of a great orator because he was not.The Rebbe did not even claim to be a big baal darshan.For those non Lubavitch the style would be seen as very long winded and boring.This is not a judgement call on the content but on the delivery.Folks who listened for many hours on end were either chasidim or people who enjoyed the content any other casual observer would not be taken by the style.
Great orators are people like Rabbi Lau, who knows how to deliver though his content does not come close to matching the Rebbes
Are there any real chabadniks here? I'm a misnagid who want to learn toras chabad, which seforim shoud I learn? What are the ikkar seforim of torahs chabad? and what are the ikkar seforim that explain toras chabad?
ReplyDeletewhere do you live?
ReplyDeletewe can set you up with a Chavruseh
i want the torah without anything else
ReplyDeleteAnon;5:30
ReplyDeleteBH we live in a era of chassidus Mevuares on Likutie Torah and Tanya its gevaldig stuff Yogaito Umotzoso....
you'll get 'Torah without anything else,' I just think it's better if you learn with a chavrusah, just like you did when you started learning Gemoroh, when you had a Rebbi teach you.
ReplyDeletestop being paranoid.
Thsin Suv
ReplyDeleteWhere did you read about the love to Joseph Stalin... In the Michtovim Umamorim ? Pravda ? Its new to me..
you wont be able to change my paranoia, what seforim. to be more specific, what seforim are the ikaar torah, and what mamorim are the ikaar explanations
ReplyDeleteTwistle
ReplyDeleteShloma Hamelech was not a misnaged but pre chassidim, as reb Yankele Peshevorsker said the Gan Eiden wasnt Pust before chassidus started
"you'll get 'Torah without anything else,' I just think it's better if you learn with a chavrusah, just like you did when you started learning Gemoroh, when you had a Rebbi teach you.
ReplyDeletestop being paranoid."
Tzig,
Why is he being "paranoid"?
Is their no basis for his paranoia?
You yourself addressed once on this blog that there is still gutteh 'sechoiroh'(your words)to be chapped.
Without mentioning names now,I am personally familiar with members of your shul.So, the rov, the "sheineh yid"(the one who looks like a Peilisher)yourself and a bunch of others........all, coming from somewhere else.Same thing repeated in many other places.So again, is there no place to be "paranoid"
Please be truthful, and don't play your old censoring tricks.I've gone out of my way to be respectful and also not mention names
Nu?
Gedalya
ReplyDeleteממה נפשך
if Lubavitch is as crazy and lunatic as you make them out to be then I'm sure your friend won't get farchapt. All I'm saying is that to a newcomer it can be very difficult. Let him knock himself out.
Gedalya
ReplyDeleteHisshel needs to give you a plaque of hakoras hatov for being respectful.
Tzig are you aware that theo printed this vort in the kfar chabad magazine the rebbe sent a maane to the editor ( aharon dov halperin) " how many yidden were your trying to be mekarev to chassidus by printing this" tzig abisel sechel darf men haben
ReplyDelete"tzig abisel sechel darf men haben"
ReplyDeleteSweet dreams...
Not with this guy.
http://a-farbrengen.blogspot.com/search/label/Ahavah%20for%20the%20Rebbe
ReplyDeleteAnon:10:06
ReplyDeleteI dont think that the story is true
It was printed in an interview with aharon dov in the kfar chabad( I'm not sure which issue)
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous 2/20/09 4:23 p.m.
ReplyDeletewho supposedly brought a quote from the Minchas Elozor - unless I saw it inside - I won't believe for one moment the Minchas Elozor said this. It doesn't sound his style.
Simcha - the tzeilim thing is an old thing that shows the Chassidishe 'love' for misnagdim. The more common variation is tzeilem kop, not hartz, is not that graphic, and doesn't include the second part mentioned in the comment, which is more extreme. There are also various versions of it, but overall it is something that is widely known and is a good illustration of what Chassidim, who supposedly stress Ahavas Yisroel so much, think of their opponents.
ReplyDeleteThe ME made some strong statements about other things, so it sounds quite possible to me that he said that too. Otherwise someone else said it. Either way, it is something that is seriously problematic.
Another illustration is the comment re misnagdim earlier in this thread in the comments time stamped Sunday, February 22, 2009 11:24:00 AM.
The love is overwhelming!
Simcha,
ReplyDeleteGrow up, you haven't a clue who the ME is.
You're not an Agudist,
are you ;-) ?
Believe it or not.Your choice but it's a well known story and yes it definitely is his style.
ReplyDeleteI heard the misnaged &tzielem story from old belzer chasidim that reb yisocher dov said it,
ReplyDeleteSnag
ReplyDeleteLearn Perek LEV 32 in tanya to get the chasidic view of ahavas yisroel, the frummer you are the more tochocho you got to get.
"Tzig are you aware that theo printed this vort in the kfar chabad magazine the rebbe sent a maane to the editor ( aharon dov halperin) " how many yidden were your trying to be mekarev to chassidus by printing this" tzig abisel sechel darf men haben"
ReplyDeleteLubab,*
Please help me to understand the above:Are you saying that you should "hide" certain statements because it can turn people off from Lubavitch?As I understand it, you are basically "ashamed" that non Lubab or as you call them "not yet "Luvavitch" would hear these things.It strikes me as not being truthful.At all.It also proves that for the average "Joe" there is a lot to be paranoid about, since one never gets the real story.
Now it happens to be that even if this anecdote is not true,I've heard this sentiment about not letting outsiders know the real position about Chabad to be a common occurence.Usually these things that Lubab are not forthcoming about are not halachik issues,rather statements about the various Lubavitcher rebbes statures.
*Bpunbound, please do not bother to respond,I have no interest in your predictable koolaid.
At a session (during a kinus)about public speaking, the speaker summarized his points as follows: good speakers a)Move around and use your hands b)vary your tone c)look at the crown. Then he concluded, the Rebbe does none of the above and yet he holds his audience better than any other speaker.
ReplyDelete"snag said...
ReplyDeleteSimcha - the tzeilim thing is an old thing that shows the Chassidishe 'love' for misnagdim."
And what Rav Shach said about Lubavitch,the Modern orthodox and religious Zionists were all expressions of Misnagdishe "love" for klal Yisroel.
6:56pm - Why don't you take a name?
ReplyDeleteRav Schach made critical statements of things he thought were wrong too, true, but I don't recall him talking about cutting anyone open and having one less of them. That statement is really low with that kind of graphic violent imagery.
Additionally, Misnagdim don't usually go around saying how they love all Yidden in the way some Chassidim do.
Misnagdim don't usually go around saying how they love all Yidden in the way some Chassidim do.
ReplyDeleteUnless your name is Reb Elya Ber...
"Rav Schach made critical statements of things he thought were wrong too, true, but I don't recall him talking about cutting anyone open and having one less of them. That statement is really low with that kind of graphic violent imagery."
ReplyDeleteThe proof of intent is in the pudding.No misnaged was cut open as a result of the Minchas Elozers alleged statement which was obviously a metaphor.On the other hand Rav Shachs condemnation of thousands of Yidden created a schism in Torah Jewry that prevails to the present day.
" Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Rav Schach made critical statements of things he thought were wrong too, true, but I don't recall him talking about cutting anyone open and having one less of them. That statement is really low with that kind of graphic violent imagery."
The proof of intent is in the pudding.No misnaged was cut open as a result of the Minchas Elozers alleged statement which was obviously a metaphor.On the other hand Rav Shachs condemnation of thousands of Yidden created a schism in Torah Jewry that prevails to the present day.
Monday, February 23, 2009 10:31:00 PM"
The Minchas Elozor statement should be beyond the pale. What if someone would make such a statement re Lubavitch? Would you be so quick to excuse it by saying that it is just a metaphor?
Rav Schach ztvk"l did not create a schism. The schism already existed, it was created by Lubavitch. He just warned people to distance themselves from a dangerous false messianic movement, and not get caught up in the messianic fervor, which can be very tempting to people who don't realize the dangers therein.
snag
ReplyDeleteYou remind me of the Goebeles the Jews are the real devil they created the schisim, demagogery has no limits.