COL
When I posted the letter of complaint yesterday there was one thing I wanted to achieve: Not convince the haters, that'll never happen. It was to prove to the fence-sitters that it's not just hearsay. That it's true when we say that the hate for Lubavitch has no explanation. That it's got nothing to do with Moshiach or putting on tefillin at Tachana Merkazit or Chinuch Atzmai/Agudah. That it's pure unadulterated hate, brought upon the world by a group of ex-Lubavitchers or relations of Lubavitchers: namely the Rabbis Ruderman, Kotler and Kamenecki. What Kalmanovich had against Lubavitch is beyond me, but it seems to be a dispute over מי בראש, which one can understand based on the fact that he took the Mirrer Yeshivah for himself when it was re-established here in New York after WW2 and much of the faculty that would work for him was Mishpooche. So the bachurim weren't "Bnei Teyreh," ok. So they were like Goyim who were to be ignored and not feed? I don't get it. Besides, when did they ever farher them that they could just make such assumptions?!
It seems like it was quite common for that perception to be held even by the greatest Balei Middos and Tzaddikim among them. Even the great Reb Baruch Ber Leibovitch was surprised to see that they were either bachurim from Poland or in Poland that could learn like the Litvishe! So it should come as no surprise that men with lesser Ahavas Yisroel should think along those lines too. But the Lubavitchers were Litvishe, just not these boys. They were Polish from Warsaw and Lodz. Oh well. What I don't get is how these same people after WW2 managed to teach all those Hungarians and Galicianers if they weren't true Bnei Teyreh! It must have really tested their patience... My friends, we can sit and complain about the fact that Lubavitchers bash "snags" all day, but this - I believe - takes the cake. Talk is cheap, withholding cash and foodstuffs from hungry bachurim just because is low. Very low. A forthcoming post will shed some light on a situation that happened only 20-something years before, where the Lubavitchers were in a position to give and the Litvisher on the receiving end. What happened then might surprise some of you.
In the 60's, your Rebbe used to ask shaylos from someone who was a dayan in Vilna and was, based on legend, in place to succeed R' Chaim Oyzer.
ReplyDeleteTzig wrote: "That it's pure unadulterated hate, brought upon the world by a group of ex-Lubavitchers or relations of Lubavitchers"
ReplyDeleteIts easier for guys like you to repeat this type of stupidity that they feed you in the "How to be a good loob robot" hand book, than actualy look yourself in the mirror and try and see.... hey! I actualy do have a huge pimple on my nose and they werent just staring cus they are full of hate. The point being; its just too hard for you to face the facts that Chabad has, and always had fundamental hashkafic, Halachic, differences with the bnei torah for generations already. Differences that are very hard for true torah yidden like RAK and others, who looked for EMES and nothing less, to ignore. And when they saw this in the Schneersons ( I noticed youre not makpid on giving the respect to gedolim by titling them "RAV") they couldnt just put on one of your fake smiles and rant Ahavas Yisroel (another very important rule from the hand book).
And BTW did it ever occure to you that "Moshiach or putting on tefillin at Tachana Merkazit or Chinuch Atzmai/Agudah" stuff didnt just happen over night? The seeds of the form of judaism that Chabad practices in 2009 were planted years and years ago. There were some very great and smart talmidei Chachamim that the rest of Klal Yisroel has always called Gedolim, that had the unbelievable forsight to see Chabad for what they really were way back then, and also how they would look in the future. How right they were! This in itself is testament and PROOF to their Gadlus. some people might even call people that can tell the future "Balei Ruach Hakodesh". They were able to see and warn us all ahead of time. If not for them who knows how many neshamos would have fell to the wayside practicing the 'mashiach cult religion'.
"Besides, when did they ever farher them that they could just make such assumptions?!"
A. Please! One has to only try to speak to you average shliach or Lubavitcher Bochur in learning for 3 minutes to know what type lokshin "Tayre" they learn in Chabad.
B. Bnei torah know that being a "Ben Torah" is not only how much torah one has learned . There are many other componants involved. The fact that you as a Lubavitcher dont know this and was never taught this, proofs that Lubavitchers are far from being Bnei Torah.
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteI'm a Lutvak,(albeit with some chasidish and Lubavitch blood)reading this and other posts it seems that you were taught in Lubavitch that people like myself and rabbonim I deeply respect are terrible reshoim.It's good to know what and who I'm dealing with.
The last question I want an answer for is if this is also in the name of "ahavas yisroel".If it is merely for some kind of "political gain", nu meilah, if you truly believe this is in the name of "ahavas yisroel" I'll have to write you off and truly brainwashed.
(Agav, when you allowed the wicked piece against Harry Maryles, an honest man, who unlike yourself is not anonymous, and a person who apparently was somewhat friendly with your father,I started to have real suspicions about you.People who put political fights ahead of family and basic decency are usually victims of brainwashing)
Menashe
ReplyDeletehow do I know you're lying to me? One word. Lutvak. There's no such word. No self-respecting Litvishe Yid would write that.
Look at what kind of comments Harry allows about me. They're much worse.
I never said they were terrible Reshoyim, just that they did some terrible things.
Yankel
ReplyDeleteyou're a total newbie boor. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Now, leave.
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteCalm down,I'm not lying to you I am indeed a Litvack and I use the chasidish vernacular Lutvack, because of my daily interactions which are mostly with chasidim.(I am proud to daven nusach Ashkenaz, though I don't think what nusach you daven is very important)
In any case what I am is totally irrelevant to the case I was making.
Regarding Harry:He actually did not allow any terrible comments AND even than was after you,totally out of the blue, allowed a beneath the belt attack (by a silly fellow, btw)which seemed to me at least to be a cultish act. (If I was Harry I would demand an apology or immediately post your name.There is nothing worse that anonymous back stabbers.Sunlight has an amazing ability to make bloggers think before they post)
Hopefully you''ll prove me wrong
Menashe
ReplyDeletego back and check last year or two years ago. There were even attempts to reveal my identity which he allowed!!!
I have followed his blog and don't know your name, so he must have done a good job of blocking it.
ReplyDeleteI would actually advise you to drop your anonymity, especially if you really believe in what you are doing.
Shoulson would be proud of you !
ReplyDelete(Hey, maybe someone will give you a quarter of a mill dmei lo yechratz like they gave to Shoulson.Blackmailing people is a good living)
I guess Maybe was on the fence. I just rolled over into the ohel and my shoves fell off.
ReplyDeleteThe letter mentioned Amshinov and other chasidic groups.
The Mirrer's that got along with the Chasidim and Chabadtzkers over there-and devoloped lifelong relationships with them- disdains the more recent evolvement of Chabad
(They also were not influenced by R'Yankev and R' Ruderman, kiyaduah and they also openly fayfed un Maran, relatively recently)
There was practically no open resistence to Maran's loychem milchems Hashem by all the so-called 'Bob admirerers.
All the E'Ydiker groups that are still fatayned on Maran for what he did to them personally (and no nothing about R' Yankev and even less about R' Ruderman) all unanimously agree that he was right that in Chabad it shtinks.
I know many Beleh Batim who learned by very moderate people and they all agree that there is something terribly wrong the kaht hayeduah.
Yankee
ReplyDeleteCan you help us out here and name some of the bachurim pictured here?
"that had the unbelievable forsight to see Chabad for what they really were way back then"
ReplyDeleteThank you, Yankel, Thank you for bringing the truth to light. You are exactly right.
This has nothing to do with Mashiach, nothing to do with Tefillan in the streets, nothing to do with Mivtzoim or Bais Chabad or learning Chassidus. Excellant, we've finally gotten to the point.
This has to do with a couple of Columbus', vus hut antplekt Amerika and decided they knew better then R' Chaim Ozer, better then the Minchas Eluzer, better then the Belzer Rebbe, better then all the Kedosihe Elyon that had fine relationships with the FR, some cordial, some Yedidas Nafshis, some on a working level but respectful and curteous, and all these did not see some dark, existential threat posed by Chabad to Torah and Judaism.
What exactly was the tremendous insight the "gedolim with foresight" that you allude to posses that these "Gedoilim" that I listed were not privy to.
I will not step back another Dor to the Rashab and R' Chaim, or perhaps the "Gaonim" of the Vaad zenen geven sharfer and possesed more insight then the Brisker Rov?
Maybe... said:
"I know many Beleh Batim who learned by very moderate people and they all agree that there is something terribly wrong the kaht hayeduah"
Wow, you really get around, don't you. How many is many?
I know many Sorotzkins and they think your Maran is....sorry this a family blog, I'll have to leave that to your imagination.
I'm sure you can fill in the blank, you are so well informed, after all.
Oh, and sorry, I'm not anon3, but if it makes you feel better, I may be Lkwdguy in disguise.
"I'm sure you can fill in the blank, you are so well informed, after all."
ReplyDeleteThank you for the compliment. I think that is the first time I was ever complimented by a Lubab sympathizer.
You proved my point. Even the people who where vehemently against Maran, agreed that there is a bad smell comming from Chabad.
(The Rov couldn't smell, so guess it was his 'kook')
You can refer to him as 'your Maran' bikoved godel. You have no idea if he caused pain to people that I am close with or not. At least they were respectful enough to even show up to the his kevureh and respected him besides the hurt. Talk about hisbatlus
>>I know many Sorotzkins and they think your Maran is....sorry this a family blog, I'll have to leave that to your imagination.
ReplyDeleteKindly name which Sorotzkin. I am very close to some of them. And I think it would be beneficial for others on this thread to see you for the lying dying you are. You are dishonest. This kind of lying only destroys your credibility.
I have learned by one Sorotzkin, and he quotes the gadol in his shiurim and his seforim. So, again, which Sorotzkin? When did he make that comment? And would you mind if I ask if he knows you? I would be more than willing to this with you on the phone.
EDITED THROUGHOUT FOR VILE AND VULGAR LANGUAGE MOST UNBECOMING FOR A SUPPOSED "BEN TORAH..."
Kalman,
ReplyDeleteJust curious if you really and truly see nothing wrong with a huge bunch of people in Crown Heights and Tzfas and Chicago (like our Friend Eli Turen)and....well and everywhere else that continue the charade of "chai vekayom" "neshomo b'guf" yellow flags etc,etc....(not to mention Milchtain from Milwaukee with his boreinu shul...).
Nothing wrong?
C'mon you can't be serious?
Was there, did it, outgrew it!
A WORD TO THE WISE HERE:
ReplyDeleteIf you liked BM Rigg surely you love Efraim Zuroff and his scolding attack Vaad Hatzoloh, right? after all, if you'd believe a goy surely you'd believe a frum Jew, right?
Oh, I forget. He doesn't suit your cause.
My bad.
Yeruchem,
ReplyDeleteSo tell us in your eyes are Snags better or worse than Nazis?
Also, why were you Lubabs tripping all over yourself to kiss Riggs behind, when he discovered some Jewish blood and when he wrote the story about the Nazi officer who saved the R'Yosef Yitzchok of Lubavitch??
I guess it served your cause, right?
What Zuroff probably wrote was that Vaad Hatzola tried primarily to save frum Jews, right?
Well, it's not PC, but that is what the halocha says, aying bemishnah b'sof Horeyois.
Snags are better than Nazis. I'll grant you that.
ReplyDeletewe kissed Rigg's beh--d? where did you see that? It's called trying to balance the story a bit so that he doesn't get the hate from the Kalmanovich people, but rather gets the full story.
Zuroff wrote that they basically tried to save their own, mainly Yeshivah bachurim, and their families of course, the Rosh Yeshiva's families that is, not the bachurim's. Basically they looked out for their own, just as DBG and the Jewish Agency did...
Yeruchem,
ReplyDeleteYou must be young, there was a whole glowing article about Rigg in Beis Moshiach and Lubab inc set up for interviews in the Jewish media Zev Brenners show for example.
Oh, btw, how was the Frierdigeh Rebbe saved? Who was in the small party of people that Rabbi Jacobson worked so tirelessly to save?Ok, so THE Frierdigeh Rebbe, his wife, his daughter and son in law, the eyneekel, R'Chaim Leiberman,Chodakov.....All fremdeh,eh???
Hey,
Lets stop and count how many yidden were saved during the war by Mike Tress and his young Agudah chevra,R'aHRON kOTLER who worked tirelessly, R'Leizer Silver etc, quite a few.
How many were saved by Lubavitch?
Maybe I should stop now?
Oh, Lubavitch sent boat tickets to the Rebbe who was stuck in France.
So, Yeruchem, shayfaleh, you "blame" other groups for saving their "own" while Lubavitch did the same?
Hey, btw, what family member did R'Ahron Kotler have in Shanchai?
(R'Shneurs wife, the rebbitzen shlit'a was in Shangchai, they had made the shidduch but had not gotten married before the European world was turned over,only years later were they able to meet and marry.R'Schneur was in Eretz Yisroel by his Zedeh R;Isser Zalman.This is just written to add some historical knowledge to the clueless out there)
v'ose kulam
ReplyDeleteRishel needed to be married on the visa so it said that she was legally married to one of the bachorim over there. I guess the marrying two people was an issue in the family even then
ועשו כולם, בובעלע טייערער
ReplyDeleteLack of knowledge in Beis Moshiach does not equal young age, please understand that. I don't read BM because it gives me a stomachache among other things.
Is "quite a few" a lot? Like how many? more or less than Schindler?
Now tell me, לעכטיגע נשמה'לע, how many people the holy of holies, the Chazon Ish, saved?
How about the Satmar Rov? was he active in Hatzolah or was he enjoying the view of the Swiss Alps?
We can go on all night here, if you like....
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteI'll get back to u later with a list of names for this picture.
Thanks, Yankee.
ReplyDeleteFR was saved by Vaad Hatzaloh. Hence the sinah. Similar to the chabad view on the Satmar-Kastner, right?
ReplyDeleteירוחם ,טיירע ברודער
ReplyDeleteקודם וויל איך וויסען ווער האט געבוירען בית משיח ,דער חזון איש ,איך אדער ענקער רעבע ,?ענטפער מיט אן אמת וועמענס שולד עס איז.
Ner
ReplyDeleteThe word "stupid" comes to mind now.
>>EDITED THROUGHOUT FOR VILE AND VULGAR LANGUAGE MOST UNBECOMING FOR A SUPPOSED "BEN TORAH..."
ReplyDeleteNot a bad word was written. You must mean the fact that I did not write about the gadol hador in the most glowing of terms. That is all you took out. The balance is there.
You let someone on this blog call the Gadol hador worse than Hitler, but you could not let that in.
You are a partisan hack and without a soul/ .
anonymous
ReplyDeletenobody likes a whiner
צווייטענס ,ווער זאגט אז דער חזון אי"ש האט געקענט עפעס פועל"ן ווער עס וויסט וויסט אז יידען אין א"י זענען געווען אין געפערלכען געפאר
ReplyDeleteראמעל מיט זיין ריזיקען ארמיי איז געווען ממש אויפען שוועל פון א"י און כמעט קיינער האט געהאט געלט
ליובאוויטש האבען שוין געוויזען אז ווען עס איז נוגע פאר זיי קענען זיי איבער קערען א וועלט צו ראטעווען וועמען עס איז זיי נוגע
קיינער דינגט זיך נישט אז ר' אהרון קאטלער האט געטאן אין הצלת נפשות אן אפהער ביז מסירות נפש ממש ספצייאל פאר א "מתנגד" וואס פאר עם איז "ביטול תיירע" כמעט פון די דריי חמורות
האסט טענות. נו גוט, טענות איז אייביג דא אויף ווער עס טוט. ער האט געקענט דאס און יענץ טאן. אפשר.
דער פראגע איז אויב ליובאוויטער ווילען קומען מיט טענות לאמיר קודם זען וואס זיי האבען געטאן פארן כלל אין די טונקעלע יארן פון די האלעקאסט
פארשטייט זיך אז איך זאג גארנישט וועגען ר"ייצ וואס איז זעלבסט געווען אין א שווערען געזונט צושטאנד און האט גארנישט געקענט טאן
ועשו, ברודער'ל קרוין
ReplyDeleteראמעל איז שוין געווען דערנאך אין 1942, מ'האט געקאנט ראטעווען דאס גאנצע אונגארישע אידענטום
און וואס איז מיט'ן אמרי אמת זצ"ל? מ'האט אים ארויסגעשלעפט מתחת אפם של הרשע, וואס האט ער געטוהן
???
איך מיין גארנישט
Yeruchem,
ReplyDeleteThe Jews in Eretz Yisroel could do very little ,only in America was it possible to raise funds and try and force the Allies to care about the Jewish plight.
To come betaynos to people when you have done nothing does not sound like yoisher to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong
"What Kalmanovich had against Lubavitch is beyond me, but it seems to be a dispute over מי בראש, which one can understand based on the fact that he took the Mirrer Yeshivah for himself when it was re-established here in New York after WW2 and much of the faculty that would work for him was Mishpooche."
ReplyDeleteWow. Mr Historian. Tell me, please, which family members had shtelers bichayav? Can you name the other appointee? Ever heard of R' Efrayim Mordechah?
R' Chaim and R' Chatzkel went to E'Y and R' Leib, R' Shmuel Charkaver, R' Chaim Visoker, etc, broke off on their own (and Barry)
MAL
ReplyDeleteהיא הנותנת
They all arrived here yet they all left..
hmmmmm
'So they were like Goyim who were to be ignored and not feed?'
ReplyDeleteI
f one of the Mirrers would have succombed to starvation because R' Chaim Shtutziner gave away the money, what would R' Chaim have to say? Was there a guarantee that there was an unlimited supply of funds from the source?
"Besides, when did they ever farher them that they could just make such assumptions?!"
They had to do with them. It doesn't take more than a minute or two to know where someone is holding in learning.
"Even the great Reb Baruch Ber Leibovitch was surprised to see that they were either bachurim from Poland or in Poland that could learn like the Litvishe!"
First of all, half the Mir was Polishe, so your quote is taken out of context. Secondly, by R' Baruch Ber, lehren vey zayn Rebbe hut gelehrnet was almost the exclusive baramoter for kenin lehrnen. He would have been shocked to meet a bachor from Chachmey Lublin that said those type of Sevaros. (Saying a sevarah in learning, bay uhnz, is a greyser sach; the Rov juggled a severa in his heads for months. Maran went back and forth from the Chazon Ish to the Rav re that famous shtickle on Shalmey Chagigah. It is a serious matter)
If you were previously unaware of this phenomenon, than you are like a heyntekeh litvikeh teenager that boys oys yesoydes from the first Rashi in the meshechtah. V'dal
"So it should come as no surprise that men with lesser Ahavas Yisroel should think along those lines too."
True, R' Baruch Ber's Ahavas Yisroel was legendary. He said, in his humility-kidarkoy bakoydesh, that he doesn't know if he will be zoyche to a cheleck in Gan Eyden for his lehren/seforim/shiurim or his davenin and gemilas chasadim. However, he will get a cheleck because when he sees a Yid in Gahs, he thinks in his mind that there should be a brachoh on his head.
Similarly, Maran made a very similar comment, re what he will get a cheleck for, where his Ahavas Yisroel was for the rest of the Klal when he protected us from the influences of the kat hayeduah via a preemptive strike. Those that knew him personally, knew that that was shlowy kifey tivoy, and he was an extremely sensitive person. A certain Adom Godel, ehr zuhl lang leben, doesn't agree on any of Maran's policies, but he is deeply impressed by the qualatative and quantative sensitivity that was manifested in Maran's interpersonal relationships.
Tzig, you don't know why they left? Look at Beis Hatalmud and look at Mir Yeshiva; much different. For starters, those chevrah couldn't be soyvel the colledge allowance.
ReplyDeleteReb Chatzkel and Reb Chaim weren't around long enough for college allowances
ReplyDeleteTzig
ReplyDeleteIt had nothing to do with R' Kalmanovitz. Ask anybody in Bensonhurst, this is a milsah that was alreay guley
great story about the Rashag and RAK. one small problem, AARTS was founded in 1971 (that is the smallest problem with the story, but the only one you will understand).
ReplyDeleteסיפור ידוע כבר שנים והדבר הכי גרוע בכל הסיפור הוא שכשתלמידי ישיבת מיר ברחו לשנחאי וכן תלמידים נוספים מישיבות ליטאיות ברחו לשנחאי מי שפגש אותם בנמל ודאג להם לכל מחסורם ולהקמת ישיבה ומקומות לינה ואוכל וכו' וכו' היה לא אחר מאשר הרב מאיר אשכנזי אשר שימש כרב הקהילה.
ReplyDeleteועוד יותר מכך, הכספים והאוכל שנשלחו לשנחאי נשלחו ליידי הרב אשכנזי אך עם הוראה שלא לתת לתלמידי ישיבת חב"ד
כמובן שהרב אשכנזי לא שעה להוראה זו ושנים לאחר מכן בהגיעו לניו יורק הוא נתבע לדין תורה על ידי קוטלר בדרישה שיחזיר את הכספים והאוכל שחילק לתלמידי ישיבת חב"ד
What is the explanation for this from the Non-Chabad/Mirrer/Yeshiva side?
ReplyDeleteThis document is very incriminating in my opinion.
יש מכתב חריף מהרבי הריי"צ באגרות קודש שלו (כרגע לא זכור לי הררך אך נדמה לי שזה בכרך ח') המכתב מיועד להרה"ג ר' יוסף דוב סולובצ'יק מבוסטון שהיה בידידות רבה עם חב"ד והרבי הקודם סוקר בפניו שתמיד הוא - הרבי -דאג לכלל הישיבות והרבי מתבטא במכתב שאם יתבע את המגיע לו מהמתנגדים הנה גם האבנטים אינם שלהם. הרקע למכתב הוא שגם בארה"ב לא רצו לתת לחב"ד וע"ז באה התגובה
ReplyDeleteChabad loves quoting from JB. Besides for the fact that he was a 'shoytheh binyaney dialmah' and was easily upginahred, they feel a spitzelya chavershaft mit ehm, vay's ehr iz oych achroy ahf dey hispashtus fuhn dayoays koyzvosys
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteDon't know about that one, but as mentioned on a previous thread, Chelek vav daf 196 is ballistic, written bshas ma'asah Teves 1942...stinging!
FR enumerates the yeshivas he held out in the 20's..first on the list (coincidentaly) was Slutsk! Ouch!
"Saying a sevarah in learning, bay uhnz, is a greyser sach....It is a serious matter"
ReplyDeleteVery illuminating, thank you for that.
BTW, Maybe, since you appear to be a bit of a Mavin in this area, any truth to that story with R' Chaim Ozer and R' Boruch Ber oif dacha and the newspaper.
Kalman.
ReplyDeleteI hoped that for 'Bobs, the things I wrote about the severity of saying a sevara is not as foreign to you as the concept of hiskashrus is to me. To you, personally it obviously is, nebach. No wonder why you are impressed with long rambling drashos
There is a photo with R' Chaim Oyzer reading a newspaper. He was oysek binyuhney klal.
Not the photo, silly boy.
ReplyDeleteThe story I heard goes:
R' Chaim Ozer is sitting with R' Shimon, they're Bi'nois Dasha, and their perusing a newspaper, Cmuvan, as you said, Inyonei HaKlal.
Well, he sudenly sees RBB coming towards them...he quickly turns to R' Shimon and tells him, "Shnel, Bahalt 'is, Ut Kumt Der Frumer". Cute. You've heard it?
Anyhow, re: your first comment, relax, don't get all worked up. You've got to switch gears once in a while. I just thought your comment was illuminating, that's all.
BTW, why would Hiskashrus be so foreign to you..U'Ledovka Boi?!
Efraim Zuroff's latest attack on the Charedim and the Holocaust
ReplyDeleteKalman. Don't remember if R' Elchonon was involved in the story.
ReplyDeleteThe datcha stories are the best and we can go on and on about it.
The Alter of Kelm rights that it is normall for a normall person to be interested in the nayes. The Mirrers all used to read the paper. In the old days of Torah V'daas one of them, maybe R' Zelig, walked around with it in the hall.
Someone used to speak with R' Elya Chazan re the nayas, on a daily basis. (Some held that R' Elya was the biggest bukiy the Mir; he was a buveste elyuy. Agav, he only spoke to the Rov in learning once in his life, in Vilna, and he was scared to approach him again, even though the Rov was impressed with him)
When R' Elya was in a comma-like state for a while before his petirah (later had a somewhat full recovery and shortly afterwords was niftar). An individual who used to discuss the news with him on a daily basis, when R' Elya was in teh comma, spoke to him about the news. R' Shmuel Birnbaum (who tzig likes for some reason) walked in and told that person that he should speak to R' Ela in learning, he doesn't care about the nayas in his comma-like state. That person, listened and told him over his won Teyreh.
When R' Elya recovered, that person repeated to him the same Teyrah he told him when he was out, to which R' Elya responded' 'ehr hut shoym gezugt dem shtickle'. Needles to say, he didn't remember any of the nayus.
The term 'hiskashrus' is not used in my circles and the Chabad connotations of the word re a Rebbe, is beyond my hasagus.
But, hey, I am a simple person, I care about the nayus
Nu, Nu Hiskashrus-Dibuk Talmidei Chachamin....'siz Ein Zach...let's not quible.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, er is takeh geven a frumer, R' BB? I had heard when he visited America, he insisted on going to Mikvah every day, az der avir in Amerika iz Metameh. Takeh azoi?
Can I add a קנייטש to this story?
ReplyDeleteRebbitzen Rishel Kotler תליט"א ,
אשת חבר צו ר"שניאור זצ"ל, was in Shangchai during the war, (the shidduch between R'Schneur had been made but there had been no time for the wedding)If I'm not mistaken she stayed by Horav Ashkenazi (hopefully someone can corroborate the story)
Also, Rav Ashkenazi himself was apparently not Chabad, he had been on his way from Russia to Eretz Yisroel and was offered the job in Shanchai, which had quite a large Russian Jewish community in the 20's already (an interesting note is that Ehud Olmerts father was a Russian Jew in Harbin,China)He sent his son R'Moshe on to Eretz Yisroel where he joined the Toras Emes Chabad yeshiva.Apparently the mother RAV aSHKENAZI of Shanghais wife was from a Chabad backround.Interesting to note that R'Moshe Ashkenazi was born in Vladivostok a port city in The Russian far east (Vladivostok=far east in Russian)I don't know what his father was doing there, maybe he was rov?
If anybody can ad details I'd be thankful
Yoel
ReplyDeleteI doubt you're right about Reb Meir.
His father's name was Schneur Zalman
he came to New York in the 50s and was פון די יושבים ראשונה במלכות by the rebbe.
Kalman
ReplyDeleteNo. The mikva story was a fabrication.
I heard that he was worried that in America there was a safek about two days Shabbos, because R' Chaim said that there is a place far away where there is a safek; but it is not coroberated by the other stories
In America, he would sing zmiros with the buchorim on Shabbos for hours on end
He obviously was makpid on Chalev Yisroel over here. He was by a Hungarian who told him that he has to rely on Kulos because in America it is hard to get CY. R' Burech Ber reprlied, that der elyekeh Chasam Sofer held it was a problem (a) speak that guys lingo and b) R' Chaim had a tremendous respect for the Chasam Sofer, that's for another time)
R' Burech Ber famously had to regurgitate when they gave him kovod at a dinner. Other times, he covered his ears in public and said,repeatedely, s'iz nisht rightig'
"Nu, Nu Hiskashrus-Dibuk Talmidei Chachamin....'siz Ein Zach...let's not quible."
ReplyDeleteHuh? The applications are obviously much different. When were you born?
Curiosity
ReplyDeleteAll you guys referrin to Rischel as the Rebbetzin: do you get double kollel checks from yeshiva even though you live in Israel, do your wives have cushy jobs in yeshiva, did you get a rent reducted apartment, are you promised a chaburah with an even higher paycheck raise, are your family simchos covered by yeshiva?
Phoo
NOBODY CALLS HER THE REBETZIN, SHE IS UNIVERSALY KNOWN SIMPLY AS RISCHEL
ReplyDeleteTzig,
ReplyDeleteLet me understand your logic.
I posted that I believed that R'Meir Ashkenazi was not Chabad, something I had heard but am not sure about.You claim that you don't think I'm right because his fathers name was Schneur Zalman.Ok.How about that his name was Meir and his sons Moshe, both not classical Lubavitch names.If a persons fathers name was Schneour Zalman he does not necessarily need to be Chabad.He may have been, but I don't see the "proof"
so what? Moshe's son's names are
ReplyDeleteמרדכי שמואל
חיים
נתן
does that make his too not a Lubavitcher?!
R'Ashenazi was rov in Shangchai from '28 to '49 and apparently did not see his son Moshe who had gone to eretz yisroel alone for many years
ReplyDelete"R' Burech Ber famously had to regurgitate when they gave him kovod at a dinner. Other times, he covered his ears in public and said,repeatedely, s'iz nisht rightig'"
ReplyDeleteEizen...Nit tzu Gloiben!
I suppose it was from such tzidkus he was zoiche tzu an einakel a Chassid.
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteAll I was trying to say that names prove very little, unless its a menachem mendel ben dov ber ben schneour zalman, type of thing.By women the names are a bit more of a proof,Nechama dina,Chaya moushka etc are not common in other circles
MAL
ReplyDeleteidiotic comments like your last one will get you in trouble.
Besides, there's more than one. You probably only know the one in Lakewood.
ReplyDeleteNu, Hirshel, maybe Maybe was put off by my last comment, eh?
ReplyDeleteMaybe you can give us a sanitized version of what Maybe said, maybe?
Hirshel,
ReplyDeleteIf R'Meir Ashkenazi was a card carrying Lubavitcher, how does it fit with Yankel Raichiks claim that Lubavitcher boys died of starvation because of being cut out of the vaads funds? Wouldn't the rabbi of quite a large community be able to help out a few fellow Lubavitchers?
I counted the guys in your pic and its a grand total of 27, if 25 thousand refugees could have survived Shangchai I find it difficult to believe that the chief rabbi would not be able to get them the very basic needs.I don't think they expected caviar.
Kalman
ReplyDeleteit was a nasty comment, followed by another, about the eynikel you mentioned.
R'BB has a Chabadsker eyneekel in Yerusholayim
ReplyDeleteThere were 36 boys there.
ReplyDelete9 left to Canada in 1942, 29 stayed behind.
I understand you have questions, but that doesn't change the fact.
If you look at most survivors of the camps they looked pretty nourished too! (Not that I'm c"v comparing.)
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteI thought you were a cpa. 36minus 9 doesn't equal 29, unless a few died.
"If you look at most survivors of the camps they looked pretty nourished too!"
ReplyDeleteSimply not true.
I see 28 in picture in the picture in this thread. 1 died. 9 left. That makes 36.
ReplyDeleteI do creative math in my line of work....
ווי האט דזשיגאן געזאגט? פינף יאר פאר דעם און פינף יאר דעם, פינף און פינף איז צוועלף
I beg to differ about the survivors.
ReplyDeleteI can show you pictures. Tons of them.
Hmmmm. I'm beginning to have my doubts about Maybe. Like maybe he's really an Hungarian, justing playing at being a Litvak.
ReplyDeleteWhy would he cast aspersions on someone sitting Al Hatorah Val Havodah in the "largest Talmudic academy in the United States", an einekel of der Birkas Shmuel.... and 'Mekushor' tzum Rebbe'n, to boot.
Makes you wonder, don't it!
I know the Leibowitz in Gush Shmonim personally. He is a warm person, humble and very normal. I never would besmirch him, because I have a chiyum hakorus hakoyv to him.
ReplyDeleteyou can call me what ever you want, but don't you dare call me a Hunk
ReplyDeleteI see how "personally" you know him...
ReplyDeleteHow should I prove it? Should I describe his apartment to you? Should I show you a photo we have together? Should I describe his looks like?
ReplyDeleteI am sorry that my relationship with him doesn't comport with your racial profiling and stereotyping.
Well, you can try and get his NAME right!
ReplyDeleteTzig,
ReplyDeleteYour only possible goal was to promote hatred. Stop it with your holier than thou, self rightous crap.
OK, Dovy. Since you asked so nicely I will.
ReplyDeleteHe lives right near amulah shel Tora in the apartment building from the corner on the ground floor. He is short and squat and speaks in a low and soft voice. He mainly has daughters (we were almost mishadech) and his oldest son is in his upper teens. He is a machnis orach par exclelance. (He has a physical resemelbance to his brother who is Rosh Yeshiva in Kamenitz; the one who is still upset that he got farchaped)
ReplyDeleteHe has sechel and tact and avoids discussing his REBBE when Litvaks are in his house in order to make them comfortable.
I was in his apratment when a 'Bob teenager from America started mentioning R' Nuchem's relationship with The Rebbey. He just smiled and when the kid asked him, ehr hut gehalten fuhn der Rebbe'? he changed the topic and smiled
I hope his son ends up like him
You were "almost Meshadech," yrt you still don't know his NAME!!Last name!He has married children, my friend!
ReplyDelete"you can call me what ever you want, but don't you dare call me a Hunk"
ReplyDeleteAh, Ahavas Yisroel is a beautiful thing to see.
Listen Maybe, calm down, I really don't understand why you flew off the handle like that. Z'is azoi upgefreigt az RBB zal huben an einekel a chassid?
I forgot his name, ok, he is probably an eynekel of the eydem. I haven't spoken to him in ten years. My point, which I proved, was that I knew about the farchaped eynekel.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I was takkeh mishadech with him; I can't remember.
"He lives right near amulah shel Tora in the apartment building from the corner on the ground floor...."
ReplyDeleteOhhhh, your talking about THAT einekel. Oichet a feina' Yid.
Ya see, Maybe, if your lucky, maybe you'll have einekel'ach, Kleina Maybe'lach, that will be just like them...Yirei Shomayim, Lamdonim...Un Chassidim!
If it's good enough for RBB....
Well....
ReplyDeleteWho is right, the Tzig or MAL?
Anyone with FACTS?
well, we can all agree on this much:
ReplyDeleteIT'S GOOD TO THE LAST DROP!!!!
יהדות אירופה עוברת שואה נוראית. הניצולים - בחורים מסכנים שרובם איבדו את כל היקר להם, אודים מוצלים מאש. ולמרות הכל - עדין מפעפעת השנאה נגד חב"ד, זה בלתי נתפש!
ReplyDeleteזו הפעם הראשונה שמובאת לידיעתי פרשה זו - אני בהלם...
LOL
ReplyDeleteOber doch?
I know see that Naplea and Hitler was not stopped by the Russian winter, but by the Russian's persistence and Akshunes.
ReplyDeleteRemember that geyrus makes a shinuy in the guf, not only the neshamh, hence the givurehner also get the akshunis and the high aldohal tolerance. V'dal
BTW, I spend considerable time learning pnimius. Much more than I should
Kalman,
ReplyDeleteComing from the Litvishe perspective, it's quite easy to see how R'BB could have a Lubavitcher eynikel(oor aynikel,actually,no?)
In der(proverbial) Litta a persons chashivus had a lot to do with their intellect as The Litvishe worshipped intellect of any kind, memeilah, somebody who is a scion of greatness sans the intellect is set up to disappoint his family and feel like a failure, especially when coming from shpitz kep.Lubavitch, of today at least, the Peylishe CHAG'AS version, is much more accepting.No need to be a baal nigleh to feel accomplished, no need to be a big mayven in chassidus to feel accepted, no need to have shmoineh begudem, like Ger for example.So it's an easy choice.The only problem is Lubavitch in "Der velt" is viewed in a negative light (to say the least)
Now all you Lubavitchers out there, don't start attacking me,please! I'm trying to give you a Litvishers perspective, that's all.
Not enough
ReplyDeleteMaxwell,
ReplyDeleteA fayna Pipul...problem iz az dee eineklach kenen lernen un ze'in ois gantz shain bechitzoinis oic...therefore, why would they need to "runaway and hide' in Chabad? Unless...
Maxwell,
ReplyDeleteWhat exactley is the 'poylishe chagas version', of Chabad?
Maybe A Litvak,
ReplyDeleteIt's fun to see the perspective of a guy who has a "feel" for history and knows a wee bit.It's tiring to read the musings of the ignorant Chabad bashers or the ravings of Lubavitcher hagiographers.
First a grip on some of the "facts" than the commentary.
I'm an old time style Litvack, keeps an open mind .
Btw, I was reading the book about R'JB Soloveichik "thinking aloud" and got a nice perspective of his personality, actually I warmed up to him.I never knew to much about him coming out of "aylem hayeshivos" Anyway, I liked a quote he had there about The Shulchan Oruch Harav something like: "I'm very far from Lubavitch, but I feel a closeness with Baal Hatanya" I think he says there that he saw in him thinking of a "misnaged".Not that I'm even comparing myself to R'Yoshe Ber, but I too feel a pull to the Baal Hatanyas way of thinking.It's very similar to the old syle Litvishe derech.
Kalman
ReplyDeleteYou don't understand the degree of kenin lehren that the Litvaks are michayev. From your perspective, the could learn, but from the perspective of a Kamentizer Rosh Yeshiva....
It is nothing new that people got farchapedd to chasidus; even with chushuva zeydes and fathers. R' Leibele Eiger comes to mind.
Kalman,
ReplyDeleteThe Chabad of yesteryear was kop, deep study of chassidus, the Harvard of Chasides if you will.The Rebbe was not seen as a person you go to to ask for gashmiyus, like the letter of the Baal Hatanya.True the later Rebbes changed that a bit, but if you ever see how difficult it was to get in to Tomchei Temimim in the Reshabs time you''ll see what I mean.
Maxwell
ReplyDeleteDid you find my remarks about Der Bostnere disconcerting?
I studied him a lot and have a picture, albeit an aspa.. sheyneh mieerah, about his maylis and the churbon he was responsible for.
BTW, in Beis Hatalmud, they said about a certain RY, 'az ehr iz nisht kein adom godel, uhber ehr hut gadlus in zich'. That statement can be applied, in a certain way, to the Bostoner.
MAL
ReplyDeletemaybe stop while you're ahead?
Kalman
ReplyDeleteI don't know R'BB eynikelach personally, so I would have no idea if they "lived up to expectations"I was giving you a general upclose perspective of a the "Litviseh"
Stam azoi R'BB was very far from your average Litvack, his reverence for his Rebbe R'Chaim was more than a chosid has for his rebbe and interestingly enough, there were chasidim with chasidic levush in his yeshiva .Maybe Tzig will post some pictures of the chaseedishe boys in his yeshiva, which appeared in a book that came out a few years ago about R'BB
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know what you are talking about. Which line did I cross, what did I say wrong?
I missed your comment on the Bostoner, where was it?
ReplyDeleteNu, Ovadia, Un Du Kenst zain Eineklach un vu zei halten in lernen?
ReplyDeleteMaxwell
ReplyDeleteThursday, April 23, 2009 11:53:00 AM
Kalman
ReplyDeleteefsher, uber eyn zach is kluhr, ehr hut nit kein hasuguh in fus dus meynt kenin lehrnen bay RBB uhn zayn mishpachoh
Maybe a Litvack
ReplyDeleteAh!
You meant R'JB when you refer to the "Bostoner".
Saw the comment but can't find it now, you wrote that in "inyonei dealma' he was a "shoiteh".No, I don't agree, you probably meant that he was no a Varshaver soicher when it came to anything outside the realm of learning or teaching, probably that I agree with .
Btw, Lubavitch spin his "relationship" with them in a certain way, which is not very true.He had misgivings about some things but also said that The Lubavitcher is one of the few who understand what the world outside of the daled amos is like.
Did you read the book?
MAL,
ReplyDeleteSorry, I wrote my post before I saw you posting me to your earlier post.
Well...
Your vort is a bit sharf I probably would have worded it a bit differently (lol)So as I said don't think he was a "shoiteh beinyonei alma" but was no match for intrigue.The "deyos kaizvois" bit:Well, I'm long out of yeshiva so I'm starting to question who was actually right! But yeah, Lubavitch probably felt a certain affinity since they were also seen as "outsiders".Also, I think Lubavitch latched on shtarck to the "Brisk" label with it's cache.It's funny, many times I've heard or read Lubavitchers referring to "Brisk" either because of naivete or a spin, as being close to Lubavitch or other stories regarding Brisker roshei yeshiva, and have to scratch my head and think "what in heaven are they talking about, this is so not Brisk" only to realize that they mean (or with very Lubavitch or younger kids, do not know better)R'JB or R'Ahron Soloveichik.So yes the relationship is a back door entrance to the cache of "Brisk"
Regarding the FR Activities from his youth, is ludicrous to say that he was selfish,
ReplyDeleteWas the Mikvoas he built for his chasidim
The Chadorim in russia
The Matzohs for Jewish soldiers by the Japaneese Russian war
The release time program
just pass thru the igrois kodesh and see that his life was Mesiras nefesh for Klal Yisroel
Maxwell
ReplyDeleteNobody is saying in Chabad that he was on the same page with the Rebbe 100%. Buts ironic that on learning Likutie torah and chassidus he was 100%on the same page.
Tzig
ReplyDeleteI remember seeing a letter of RAK thanking the FR for his donation for his Yeshiva on the day of Shaindels wedding. So were was RAH haskafa tehora?kofer or non kofer?
Anon
ReplyDeleteWho said the FR was selfish?
" anon3 said...
ReplyDeleteAnon
Who said the FR was selfish?"
Somebody must like my "name"
בפטירת ר' קוטלר השתתפו כל יהדות החרדית דארה"ב,ויהו טענות נגד הרבי מדוע לא השתתף ,ר' חיים גוטניק בהיותו ביחידות הביא לרבי הרבה טענות של המתנגדים על הרבי וחב"ד,ובין הדברים הטענה ,למה לא השתתפו בהלוייתו של ר' קוטלר,וע"ז ענה הרבי ...שהוא הי' מי שגרם לרבי הריי"צ להוריד דמעות, ...ןזה הי' על הסיפור הזה של אי הקצבת כסף לךישיבת ותלמידי חב"ד שגרם למות כמה בחורים מרעב, וביודעם זאת זה מה שהי' להם בראש לא לתת לחב"ד,,אע"פ שהרבי הרייצ הי' פעיל בוועד ההצלה והכספים נאספו מיהודים חסידים ג"כ,
ReplyDeleteיש ע"ז מכתב חריף וכואב של הרבי הריי"צ,
עוד סיפור שקרה בהלויה של אהרן קוטלר
כשיצא ר' יואל מסטמר מהרכב שהביאו להלויה הוא שאל מיד "דער ליובאוויטשער איז דא?" וכשענו לו שלא אמר "ער האט ברייטע אקסלען"
רק להראות קצת את הלחץ שהיה אז על החסידים להשתתף בהלויה, ורק הרבי לא הגיע בדוקא! כדי לא לחלוק כבוד למי שגרם צער לאדמו"ר הריי"ץ!
כמה כבוד היה להרבי להרבי הריי"ץ!
ר' חיים גוטניק בהיותו ביחידות הביא לרבי הרבה טענות של המתנגדים על הרבי וחב"ד,ובין הדברים הטענה ,למה לא השתתפו בהלוייתו של ר' קוטלר,וע"ז ענה הרבי ...שהוא הי' מי שגרם לרבי הריי"צ להוריד דמעות", ר' חיים גוטניק בהיותו ביחידות הביא לרבי הרבה טענות של המתנגדים על הרבי וחב"ד,ובין הדברים הטענה ,למה לא השתתפו בהלוייתו של ר' קוטלר,וע"ז ענה הרבי ...שהוא הי' מי שגרם לרבי הריי"צ להוריד דמעות, .
ReplyDeleteAnother reason for the Rebbe not attending the Rav Kutlers levayeh was simply because Reb Ahron did not attend the the levayeh of the RAYA"TZ.
This time it's "me"
Maxwell
ReplyDeleteInteresting take on the cache. I was subtly, or overtly, saying that it was easy to nahr him up, so the kat shoudln't get excided by their version of him having an affinity for the Rebbey.
not to convince
ReplyDeletebut to make wince
for those not sure
this post was for
this hard bigotry
has a long history
nisht fuhn haynt
commenced this fight
The Lubavitch fight
not overnight
The actions of some
especially Reb Avrum
What indeed was done?
with that lump sum
they alledge favortism'
In midst the activisim'
the later actions
justify the reactions
the later nepotism'
sheds light like a prism
on actions in the war
that chabad abhors
The anonymous poster of Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:59:00 PM would perhaps be a little believable if not for the fact that the Satmar gave a fiery Hesped. Doubtlessly because of pressure!! And that the Satmar Rebbe was not nispoel from anyone, certainly not the (Much younger) Lubavitcher Rebbe. And just which Levaya did the Rebbe go to, from those gedolim who weren’t Metzare the Rayat, Rav Moshe, Rav Henkin, the Satmar Rebbe, Kapichnitur Rebbe. If the Shanghai story is as true as this one, it’s a bunch of lies!!
ReplyDeleteMaybe
ReplyDeleteis it a known fact that he was gullible?
Nu what happened to the chassidim of Reb Zalmen the Litvak?
ReplyDelete"The anonymous poster of Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:59:00 PM would perhaps be a little believable if not for the fact that the Satmar gave a fiery Hesped."
ReplyDeleteSince when do people really mean what they say at a hesped?
Ovadia said:
ReplyDelete"efsher, uber eyn zach is kluhr, ehr hut nit kein hasuguh in fus dus meynt kenin lehrnen bay RBB uhn zayn mishpachoh"
Un Du, tzuzamen mit der hayntiga 'teefer kep' hubun yah a hasagah? Dream on!
Mir alah esen der zelbeh broit mit kasha, to paraphrase der heilege rebbe reb yoilish
out of the inferno pg 265 266 Mentions already then some people where more worried about a library then rescue..
ReplyDeletepage 317 states specificly that the jdc gave the rayatz direct suppport...
Satmar gave a fiery Hesped."
ReplyDeleteNot true! All he said basically "shvocho shel Aaron shelo shino!"
In fact he did not want to go to levayo for a number of reasons (for one the big opposition of RAK against him, t the point of onc suggesting to put him in c..., because of the virulent stance of SR re Israel etc.). A lot of pressure was put by Lakewood (on everybody in fact) as will be confirmed by Satmarer wo know the inside story. That's why he kept his hesped short.
As for Chabad, R. Gurary did attend (it would seem with consent of LR).
'Un Du, tzuzamen mit der hayntiga 'teefer kep' hubun yah a hasagah? Dream on!'
ReplyDeleteIt was a reference to his brother who is RY in Kamenitz and the other Leibowitz over there (maybe R'CS) that some think is from the world's greatest lamdanim. It was a comparison to his mishpachah
Kalman, just out of curiousity, how many cholokim are there in Birkas Shmuel?
ReplyDeleteTwistleton
ReplyDeleteUntil the 6 day war the Satmar Rebbe felt a certain commonality with the Lubavithcher Rebbe regarding Zionism. There is old DER YIDS where you can see Birchas Hashonas printed Side by side on a annual basis. Obviously things changed after the war where there shitios departed extremely but he fell ill shortly afterward.
Satmar views diverge sharply on the Chabd Rebbe's view that Zionistic controll of land trumps the lives of non Lubavitchers
ReplyDeleteKalman
ReplyDeleteBefor you say meyniger to Ovadia, kindly please tell us how many chalokim are in Birkas Shmuel?
Maybe:
ReplyDeleteHalf the time I have no idea what you're saying, but the poems are אייזן!!!!
They bring a smile to face.
Thanks for that.
Ner Yisroel said...
ReplyDeleteSatmar views diverge sharply on the Chabd Rebbe's view that Zionistic controll of land trumps the lives of non Lubavitchers
Friday, April 24, 2009 6:00:00 PM
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sounds like you must have been zoche to a bit too much 'kiruv' in the dorm at Ner Yisroel...Baltimore, wasn't it ?
See what too much kiruv does to the brain....
m.reicher
ReplyDeleteYou are lacking class and tact. You should learn the shmuezhen from the late Mashgicach ztz with regards to Teshuva
The reactions here are oh-so-predictable, but as someone with much experience in both the Litvishe and Chassidishe kreizen, as well as being privy to much historical data of both, a few things bear remembering:
ReplyDeleteNeither Rabbonim Kotler nor Kalmanovitch were any great beacons of ahavas-yisroel. Loving your own yeshivaleit while constantly mocking all others has never been the way of Chaza"l, nor is it the way of real Torah today. Yes, RAK was a tremendous gaon, and could give a better shiur than perhaps any RY since, but this hardly excuses his way of 'lo nohagu kovod ze bazeh'. (It is brought in sforim, that this is the reason why 'Beis medrosho shel R' Akiva' did not last - to have kiyum, torah must be al yesod shel ahavas yisroel'. There are many other places in shas where this same fact is demonstrated in different ways {chagiga 22b, vechulhi}). Rather than admit that certain behaviour by certain Roshei Yeshiva may have been wrong, the self-appointed 'defenders of the litvishe way' here have chosen to shoot the messenger instead. Guess what- it doesn't work, never has, and certainly not in the age of the information superhighway. The truths of history will not disappear by being whitewashed, though Artscroll keeps trying...
The sad result is a vast number of yeshivaleit who can learn a decent 'por blett gemorro', are familiar with the key 'ktzos / nesivos machlokessen', and are happy to let anyone who cares (and many who don't) know. What is quite disturbing however, is that even though so many of these bnei-teyreh are ignorant of most of Shulkhan Arukh, they have no problem branding anybody but their own clones 'kofrim, shgotzim' and worse. This is not todays generations fault. This is their yerusha from RAK, Kalmanovitch, Ruderman et al. and brought to prominence recently by Rav Schach, whose hateful verbal and written diatribes remain a prime example. This is NOT the derech (nor was it ever) championed by leaders such as RMF, SZA, RSF, Rabbis Shmuelevitz, Berenbaum, Bakst, or many others.
To be continued in Part 2.
Mike Mandel, self proclaimed historian and defender of Chabad. Ignorant of age old machlokisin and even the way they viewed many Litvishe Bale Batim.
ReplyDeleteIgnorantly intersperses R' Kalmanovitz and R' Ruderman is responisble for the current way of thinking.
Ignorantly quotes the list of 'good Litvaks' without firsthand knowledge about what they fealt about chasidim and Chabad in general. (Enough to keep you busy till the next video showing of REBBEY's sicha)
Who is RSF?
Mike Mandel
ReplyDeleteRAK shiurim were not his forte since they were old school pre brisk, his FIL the Even Haozel was more in vogue with the new derech halimud in yeshivahs, but he was a charif. By the NY Eiruv story he was also very agressively claiming Chilul Shabos and Reb Moshe had to calm him down as told by reb Tovia Goldstien
To MAL (9:29) --
ReplyDeleteI presume it's r' Shlomo Freifeld. Correct me if wrong.
No anonymous please!
ReplyDeleteHirshel
I beg you not to allow anonymous comments.A guy who can't even choose a name usually has nothing of value to say and causes the whole thread flow to get mixed up
"I presume it's r' Shlomo Freifeld. Correct me if wrong."
ReplyDeleteI also think so. That proves that person's ignorance.
Wait For Part Two
"Ignorantly quotes the list of 'good Litvaks' without firsthand knowledge about what they fealt about chasidim and Chabad in general. (Enough to keep you busy till the next video showing of REBBEY's sicha)"
ReplyDeleteMAL
Being that you presume yourself to be the resident "self proclaimed expert" on all matters Chasiddish and Litvish (as opposed to your constant belittling of others on this blog site who disagree with you, as being "ignorant")please enlighten all us "ignoramuses" about what the above named "good Litvaks" thought and felt about Chassidim and Chabad.
anon 3
ReplyDeleteIf it is really you this time
Never claimed to be an expert on Chasidisim.
Anyways, for starters, R' Leib Bakst has a long shtickle comparing the eigel with chabad- how they were living on mofsim with out a life of Torah. Forty years later, when Moshe really was niftar, they would have never have went for an eigel; after learning bihasmadah.... I could go on. Enough for now
Someone stole my name.Again
ReplyDeleteBakst was a loser.
ReplyDeleteanon3 said...
ReplyDeleteSomeone stole my name.Again'
I should have known; there was no substanse in those comments
Detroiter, R' Leib was a big oyved
Hirshel, let's go for a beer, I am two minutes away
I have some beer in my house.
ReplyDeleteHey, I want beer!
ReplyDeleteOhr Sameyach in ten?
ReplyDeleteNever been to OS, although I do have boys from there at my Shabbos table often.
ReplyDeleteForget it. you lost your zechus to meet me
ReplyDeletea two minute window was all I got?
ReplyDeleteHow about Tzemach Tzedek in 10?
will you keep my identity a secret?
ReplyDeleteWill I know you once I meet you?
ReplyDeleteno; but you will figure it out.
ReplyDeleteDo I have your word on keeping identity?
You absolutely have my word. So it's Tzemach Tzedek in 10?
ReplyDeletedeal
ReplyDeleteTo MAL and all the other experts: My point was never that the other ‘litvishe gedeilim’ had any great love for Chabad or chassidus at all. Rather, that notwithstanding their sometimes stark differences of opinion, they didn’t need to stoop to the snide and meanspirited style that were trademarks of the first bunch I mentioned. I meant the many brilliant attributions like Rudermans “derech avi avrohom”, RAKs “sheker ein lo raglayim” etc. How typical of (some of) you to totally miss the point. Frankly, I’m sure nobody in Chabad gives a hoot what RLB or any of the others thought about them, and vice-versa. But the derech hamachlokes of Chazal didn’t include the type of vicious snipes that seem to have been a staple of some self-appointed leaders of the teyreh-velt. Do you think R’S Kamenetzky (whom I’ve discussed this with many times) is any great lover of Chabad ?! Yet he hasn’t felt the need to filthy himself up over the years by throwing mud all around. Any real leader recognizes that other shittos also have al-ma v’al-mi lismoch. Especially, when any objective observer recognizes that the most learned of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opponents were not exactly his superiors in Torah knowledge, put mildly.
ReplyDeleteNow, if you’ll allow me the privilege….
Part 2:
This is all not to say c"v that there is anything wrong with being a takif-deah, nor with believing ones own derech to be superior to any other. The mistake of Talmidei R'Akiva was not that they were resolute in their own derochim rather that they refused to acknowledge the validity of their peers’ derochim as well. The gemorro in Chagiga that I quoted earlier (22b- “boshni midivreichem b’s”) was merely a typical illustration of this point. When trying to assemble a composite of what RAK, RAKa’s, and their ilk’s shittos were regarding chabad and many other groups, one is forced to rely heavily on 2nd and 3rd hand quotes, as they were smart enough to not publish their hate in print. (Not so the late REMS, whose ‘michtavim umamarim’ serve as a good primer for ignorant mudslinging based on (as he himself often admits in the letters) loshon-hora and rechillus. So the leaking of this letter, with the promise of many more to come is of some historical value. If what emerges are examples of vicious and underhanded acts of spite against fellow frumme yidden, then so be it. The truths of history will make their own mark regardless. How sad that the Artscroll fabrication machine wasn’t in operation forty years ago – had it been, we’d now be reading about RAK’s great love for all Jews, and his ‘mesirus nefesh’ for klal yisroel. Oh, and how he actually said tehillim for the previous LR when he was ill….as if!
Obviously, the LR had his own derech and shittos, which were often (mostly?) at odds with the Brisker / Litvishe / Yeshivish or whatever other agendas. So what ? Was he then not entitled to his own shittos ?! Remind me again which of the 13’ middos shehatorah nidreshes bahem’ mandates that ‘Daas Teyreh’ is decided exclusively by the moetzes, or at the agudah convention. Was Elya Svei leading by example with his halbonas-ponim-borabim at the Torah uMesorah convention fiasco a few years back? Or were the real examples the hundreds of other ‘gedeilim’ who sat by and watched a senile old man vent his vicious frustrations (likely forfeiting his eilem-habo in the process, as per B’M 58b) – Kamtza & barKamtza had nothing on him, “hoyil vehavi yasbi rabonon veloi mochu bei, shma mina ko nicha lehu!!”
The LR somehow managed to pen well over thirty volumes of correspondence, and as yet, nobody has discovered any pages of vicious diatribes against his opponents, nor his branding them ‘kofrim / apikursim / reshoim ‘etc… No wonder he wouldn’t have made ‘godol’ in certain circles. There is a huge difference between prioritizing one’s own community or constituents, and attaching a condition to a general disbursement excluding ONE particular group that just happened to have different shittos – especially when we’re talking about basic survival money.
Eilu elokecha yisroel….
Next, Part 3.
Mike Mandel
ReplyDeleteLook at Mishnas Reb Ahron on sefirah re: talmidey Reb Akiva; a lot of pertinent quotes that can help your cause
You wrote a very long shtickle. Remember that you are speaking to an audience whose brain capacity can't hold more than a few bletter.
You can't come up with a quote that is more viscious than 'mir luzt ehm nisht areyn'. Come on
I see Tzig and Maybe a Litvak are Back. How was the meeting at Tzemach Tzedek? and did anybody else show up there?
ReplyDelete"Yet he hasn’t felt the need to filthy himself up over the years by throwing mud all around."
ReplyDeleteHe must have learnt from his mentors that were careful to have three levels of seperation from any negative comments. Maybe his consgilerie will give you some juicy quotes.
Is he not intellent enough to hide his hate like the others? Don't be fooled
"If what emerges are examples of vicious and underhanded acts of spite against fellow frumme yidden,"
ReplyDeleteUNDERHANDED?
"(as he himself often admits in the letters) loshon-hora and rechillus."
I thought they were smart enough not to print it
"If what emerges are examples of vicious and underhanded acts of spite against fellow frumme yidden, then so be it."
Did Goren's 'psak' benefit you personally?
"How sad that the Artscroll fabrication machine wasn’t in operation forty years ago – had it been, we’d now be reading about RAK’s great love for all Jews, and his ‘mesirus nefesh’ for klal yisroel."
ReplyDeleteThe new book on the Gaon Hador does the great service to the tzibur, by doing exactly what you say it should
"Oh, and how he actually said tehillim for the previous LR when he was ill….as if!"
He actually said Tehilim for the Rebbe who came after that one
"Or were the real examples the hundreds of other ‘gedeilim’ who sat by and watched a senile old man vent his vicious frustrations (likely forfeiting his eilem-habo in the process, as per B’M 58b)"
ReplyDeleteInteresting. A senile person is responsible for what he does. My limad zechos for you just evaperated
I am happy that you respect true Gadlos by mentioning that the 'nelav' was shoymeh cherpusoy and didn't answer. That is true Gadlos Haadom that was demonstrated by the Chaim Berlin Rosh Yeshiva Shlita; who prevented goons from ending the speach.
"Especially, when any objective observer recognizes that the most learned of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opponents were not exactly his superiors in Torah knowledge, put mildly"
ReplyDeleteOBJECTIVE?
The objective person on this issue doesn't exist. Kinda like the 'reasonable person' in the legal world.
"Frankly, I’m sure nobody in Chabad gives a hoot what RLB or any of the others thought about them,"
Your brain seems to have the capacity to retain a lot of info re: anti chabad statements made by Litwaks. Yet you claim you don't give a hoot. Hey, wasn't it Chazal who said, milss dloy... loy mishackey'
"The LR somehow managed to pen well over thirty volumes of correspondence, and as yet, nobody has discovered any pages of vicious diatribes against his opponents"
ReplyDeleteMaybe he was smart enough not to print it, just like his opponents. 'Moyvey Dachkmeney'
"Eilu elokecha yisroel…."
ReplyDeletewhat' with the K in kecha? Is that a subliminal admission or a Freadion slip?
V'oyd: It is loshon yachid. The Moetzes is a Rabbim. Your leadership is comprised of how many people?
One leader and a bunch of yes-men does not a Moetzes make.
ReplyDeleteActually it does, but you get my point, it's still one man's opinion that wins.
Johny is working on a bio for that 'one man' whose opinion won. It is called 'They called him Rabbi'
ReplyDeleteAgain with the cryptic talk?
ReplyDeleteSherer
ReplyDeleteThe Tress book was called
'they called him Mike'.
I had a hard time remembering which book your title was a play on words on.
ReplyDeleteBy the way: I didn't mean Sherer.
"Maybe he was smart enough not to print it, just like his opponents. 'Moyvey Dachkmeney'"
ReplyDeleteHows about Rav Shachs Michtovim umaimorim?It's not exactly an ode to peace, contrary to some posters on this blog who can't read or never read it to begin with.
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteYou have a knack for the dishonest picking and choosing of comments to maintain the sonei yisroel tone of your threads. You allow for the most nonsensical bashing of non chabad jews. But you don't allow them to rebut these obnoxious, factually incorrect accusations.
Now don't get me wrong. It is not as though anyone is under the illusion that you, as part of the Chabad cabal, love anyone outside the limited, narrow world of chabad. חסר קצת But you should not pat yourself on the back for being a cutting edge, honest blogger, either.
"Tzig,
ReplyDelete"You have a knack for the dishonest picking and choosing of comments to maintain the sonei yisroel tone of your threads. You allow for the most nonsensical bashing of non chabad jews. But you don't allow them to rebut these obnoxious, factually incorrect accusations."
Have you been following this entire thread of posts? I doubt it.The posts of Maybe A Litvak (just one example of many),who has been hogging this blog with his "peons of praise" for Lubavitch and the vulgarities he uses to describe the Rebbe,Chabad and Chassidus in general belie your above statement.
"The posts of Maybe A Litvak (just one example of many),who has been hogging this blog with his "peons of praise" for Lubavitch and the vulgarities he uses to describe the Rebbe,Chabad and Chassidus in general belie your above ."
ReplyDeleteYou will not find a quote from Maybe that makes fun of 'Chassidus in general.
"It is not as though anyone is under the illusion that you, as part of the Chabad cabal, love anyone outside the limited, narrow world of chabad"
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Tzig allows this type of post on his site again contradicts your previous assertion.
"It is not as though anyone is under the illusion that you, as part of the Chabad cabal, love anyone outside the limited, narrow world of chabad".
Come on now.
Are we to assume that that your ilk goes beyond the "limited narrow world" of self aggrandizement and gases haruach of Flatbush or Fakewood?
"You will not find a quote from Maybe that makes fun of 'Chassidus in general."
ReplyDeleteSo let me understand this.Are you saying that that your usage of the word "kat" applies only to Lubavitch and what of your innuendos about both the RAYAT"Z and the lest Rebbe?
>>Are we to assume that that your ilk goes beyond the "limited narrow world" of self aggrandizement and gases haruach of Flatbush or Fakewood?
ReplyDeleteThank you for demonstrating my point. Tzig refuses to put up posts which conclusively rebut the fabrications of all the sonei yisroel on this thread. That's a fact.
That's NOT a fact. I refuse to put up comments that say things like 'Your Rebbe hated all non-Chabad Jews," or "Your Rebbe taught you to hate all Jews." Other than that anything goes.
ReplyDeleteNow go and think of something else to lie about.
Chollent
ReplyDeleteYou will not find a deragatory quote about a (recent)non Chabad Chasidic Rebbe
The kat, was shorthand for the 'kat hayeduah'/aka Lubavitch/aka. the biggest bikeyem in mechtuvim ummamourim. For that, I am mikaneh them
'Your Rebbe hated all non-Chabad Jews," or "Your Rebbe taught you to hate all Jews." Other than that anything goes.
ReplyDeleteHow come you allowed this quote
Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:33:00 PM on the buses poste
Because I thought it harmless, most people would not understand it anyway.
ReplyDeleteTzig
ReplyDeleteDon't underestimate the kishron of the bloggers
MAL:
ReplyDeleteYou remain, typically if unsurprisingly, fixated on your petty little parochialisms, and refuse (or are simply unable?) to see outside your blinders. So for the last time, my point here was (and is) not whether there were always machlokessen between Chabad/Litvish/MO/etc. Anybody who can read already knows that. My issue was with the despicably crass, meanspirited, and un-Torahdik attitudes fostered by some of those you call 'gedeylim' towards other Jews including (though certainly not limited to) Chabad. Against this historical backdrop, understanding how one or more such 'gedeylim' could direct $$$ be withheld from one particular group of frum Jews who they hated, becomes much easier. There wasn't simply a chilukkei-deios, this was an active program (it would seem) to deny aid to yidden in a state of real pikuach-nefesh. Should the allegations in that letter be substantiated, then whoever did this is a dog, and it doesn't matter whether you call the dog Kotler, Kalmanovitch, or any other name - retzicha is retzicha is retzicha just like a dog is a dog is a dog... As I said earlier, facing the truths of history is a prerequisite for learning from it - revisionism never really succeeds, as even Artscroll will learn one day.
You silly aspersions as to my alleigances, affiliations, or motives don't really mean much, even as most litvaks couldn't care less what chassidim think of them, Chabad and otherwise. Ditto the MO.
The man you subjectively call Gaon Hador may have been so in your opinion, though the various other groups claiming similar status for RYBS, RMF, the LR, the SR, and others probably have much stronger evidentiary claims. The fact that your parents, or for that matter REMS' own daughter may have been beneficiaries of R'Gorens controversial psak is of absolutely no relevance to me - I don't know why you brough it up?! The fact is that REMS had more than enough sinas-chinom to spread around for everybody- sfardim, tziyonim, chabadnikim,chilonim....you name them, he had something nasty to say. And yes, as I mentioned earlier, the contrast between what he produced to the writings of the LR are in stark contrast. So you advance the stupid argument that perhaps the LR was a similar hater to REMS, and the hate simply never made it into print ?!!! How stupid and desparate can one get! The LR is clearly the most published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century. Don't you think if he was running some type of hate-factory like the Ponovezh-of-late, that it'd be better known than just your fantasies ?
And yes, some slack should be cut a senile old man who gets up at a convention and sputters hate. Yet to imply that all the hate arrived out of thin air makes your other arguments look smart. Maybe it was just all the Hershey-bars from his college days being regurgitated, or maybe he was possesed by a dybuk of Avigdor, or maybe- just maybe, a senile old man sputters whats been cooking inside, but kept under (some) wraps for some years- similar to a drunk old man...you think ?
And yes, MAL, to look at the bright side, the late RY did indeed afford R'Fishman (and others) to reach the level of "veohavov k'tzes hashemes...", but that is hardly an excuse.
ReplyDeleteMike Mandel
ReplyDeletetu a yid a toyveh- the suspense is killing us- mir vart oph der driter cheleck
If only I could bring Mashiach with my bakushes
ReplyDelete"So for the last time, my point here was"
Last time? I bet you are comming back with part 4 and other regurgitations of part 1
"The LR is clearly the most published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century"
is 'clearly' a substitute for objectivity? Please explain
"The man you subjectively call Gaon Hador may have been so in your opinion,"
He was 'clearly' the Gaon Hador
ok, people. Moveon.org to the next thread. Today's if you don't mind.
ReplyDeleteHere's what I mean by 'objective'.
ReplyDeleteThe LR spoke and taught torah in front of (on average) several thousand people at a time, with no texts open in front of him. The cumulative number of hours he did this for, while quoting from hundreds of seforim/sources, is more than 10,000. Yes, over ten thousand hours of torah including mikra, mishne, shas, poskim, midrash, kabbala, chassidus, etc. One may of-course disagree with his teachings / conclucions / analyses, whatever, but the fact remains: He exhibited an unparalleled mastery of torah. The tape doesn't lie, neither the audio, nor the video, nor the many varied testimonies asserting the same.
Now remind me again, MAL....WHY didn't your 'Gaon Hador' get around to printing any of his chiddushim (ki rabim heim) while he was still breathing....?
Now, sit tight for Parts 3 & 4.
"One may of-course disagree with his teachings / conclucions / analyses, whatever, but the fact remains: He exhibited an unparalleled mastery of torah."
ReplyDeleteBy mastery, you mean havunuh?
"MAL....WHY didn't your 'Gaon Hador' get around to printing any of his chiddushim (ki rabim heim) while he was still breathing....?"
Good point. Your Rebbe was greater than R' Chaim Brisker; just compare the published stuff?
I will give a msahal that even you can understand
Animal Farm, which was a pretty short book, had more chuchmuh than Des. Crime and Punishment. V'dal
(Animal Farm wasn't a 'rip off' of Sdey Chemed, either)
Mandel
ReplyDeleteYou think he wouldn't of said it if Wolfson was present?
What ARE you on about now, you moron ? Can't you please address the issue cogently.
ReplyDelete"The LR is clearly the most published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century"
ReplyDeleteMaybe a Litvack,
I can't believe you let Mike Mandel get away with his other "Freudian slip" of the Lubavitcher Rebbe being the "most promoted" torah leader!I really got a chuckle out of it.
Mandel, do you really think that mass publishing of a leaders works, especially when your group owns the publishing house means ZERO?I've never heard more circular logic!
You are allowed your opinion of the Rebbe, but try not to prove it with such stupidity, please!
The point of my " ...published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century" statement was simply to point out that there aren't really any secrets about the LR - his torah / shittos/ hashkofos are all well known and on full display. Unlike the supposedly superior 'gedeylim' whom we're expected to follow blindly on somebody's say-so.
ReplyDeleteRead my comments in-full, before quoting out of context.
Thanks.
"What ARE you on about now, you moron ? Can't you please address the issue cogently."
ReplyDeleteThank you for the compliment and for keeping the discussion on a high level.
When the reasonable people can't disagree that there are two sides to an issue, as a result, the verbal exchange can no longer be 'debate' and- to be precise- it must be coined a 'discussion'.
Hence, your incorporation of ad hominems are appropo.
I referred to Wolfson, because, HaRav Svey, in that famous speach, made savory comments regarding the former.
REBW gave thousands of shiurim and many of them are on tape. Now, if we print them and fill up a couple of shelves, did he suddenly become the biggest Marbitz Torah/Talmid Chchom/'Yegeh BITeyreh kiDovid?
Another point. Would it be a terrible inconvenience to you if we discuss 'quality'? Do you would like to pretend that it doesn't exist, or, you are unaware of objective* standards to gauge quality?
*'objective'- objectivity, by defniition, is the use of objective standards
Sit Tight for 3 & 4.
I know that you are not mafris parsah. You defnitiely have the other siman taharah of 'shoy.. shesah- by your constant regurgitation. Therefore, you must lack the other siman taharah. *V'dal
*V'dal- means that only if one is a Chuchum, he can understand the 'rimizah.
Mike Mandel,
ReplyDeleteSad to inform you that The Lubavitcher Rebbbes teachings are hardly known where they would count most, namely the Yeshiva World.
I don't know how long you've been religious and in which Jewish circles you travel, but if you want to try a small experiment, try and see how many black hat yeshivas actually stock Lubavitch books.If you do locate any check the prominence of their location.For example,Lakewood Yeshiva aka Beth Medrash Govoha has a few Sichos books tucked away in the reference Library, which are not very accesible, you have to go downstairs, search the index etc (of course you may claim that its "only one Yeshiva"!True, but they have about 5 thousand boys and married men studying there)If you for example are studying in any of the other studying halls which can be up to half a mile away you are out of luck.
I never "merited" to study in Lakewood, but did get my rear end booted from quite a number of black hat yeshivas here and in Israel and can state that Likutei Sichos were nowhere to be found, maybe a lone Tanya, left off by a fervent Lubavitcher.You can also do another experiment and check your local black hat synagogue.See how many Lekutei Sichos books you''ll find.I can assure you that you won't be very succesful.Yes, you may find some of the thin weekly parsha sheets.I've seen few takers and these are furtively given out by Lubavitchers, similar to the Chinese resteraunt menus.
In summary Lubavitch prints and tries to disseminate many Chabad books and publications but I have not seen to many takers.Maybe the Gutnick chumash will break down this barrier,I don't know.I'm just reporting the facts as I see them.
N.B You may wonder how I would know about the doings in Lakewood NJ when I never studied there and when I'm not friend of the Mad Hatters.Well, my sons have taken yiddishkait very seriously so on a visit to see them I decided to check out the Otsar reference library and have reported back to you
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteYou could put up my posts. It just might add to your credibility.
Mike Mandel said...
ReplyDelete"The point of my " ...published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century" statement was simply to point out that there aren't really any secrets about the LR - his torah / shittos/ hashkofos are all well known and on full display. Unlike the supposedly superior 'gedeylim' whom we're expected to follow blindly on somebody's say-so."
Mike. Ever heard of the word ambiguity? There is more confusion about the intent of many statements of Rebbe, fundamenatl ones I might add, than anything the Gedoylem said. Unless, you are referring to shticklach in Avi Ezri. You have to be more clear
MAL:
ReplyDeleteIt'd be nice if you could actually address the question at hand, or at least say you don't have an answer. On what basis do you (subjectively) decide that RAK was THE gaon hador ?
And does this lend his opinion any type of binding authority?
Clearly please, in English :-)