A Brisker Nafka Mineh...
So Reb Aron found a new derech - at least as far as Avodas Hashem goes. It seems like amongst the Chevroner bachurim Reb Ahrele became quite popular, which is surprising. I cannot think of two more extreme shittos in Judaism. The Chevroner were very much into their looks, and in a way still have that reputation. The Chavrei Shomrei Emunim were the extreme opposite. They wore the old Kaftans, and had takanos that were quite foreign in the Chevroner circles. Yet, the serious ones in Chevron saw this tremendous burst of new Chassidishe energy and wanted in. Reb Chatzkel Sarna, RAC's brother-in-law and fellow Rosh Yeshivah, would not have it. He was to have entered the Beis Medrash and banged on the bimah saying: "Those who cannot get Yiras Shomayim from this Yeshivah cannot get Teyreh neither!" It was an ultimatum to the bochurim, all or nothing! They say that RAC would go to Shomrei Emunim for Tefillos as well as Tishen, until he realized that it wasn't "Lefi Kvodo", but we can argue that point. Maybe it was at the request of his choshuv'e shvogger....
It seems like Chevroner Yeshivah in Geula was losing boys to lots of other kreizen, with defection to Chassidus being the most common. The Bais Yisroel of Ger seemed to derive great pleasure if he could shlep a boy out of Chevron and make him into a Gerrer Chnyok. I'll go out on a limb here and say that had that happened with any other Rebbe there would've been really bad blood between the two groups. But since Reb Chatzkel Sarna sat with the BY on the Moetzes, as well as on other boards like Chinuch Atzma'i, he couldn't say anything to him, he needed to accept it! The whole Parsha here goes against what Maller himself taught us in HoRav MiBrisk, where he tries to dispel a "myth" that HoRav S"Y Zevin brings in Ishim VeShittos regarding Reb Chaim Brisker and the educational of the young Solovejcyks. Zevin brings a story where Reb Chaim was to have sent his sons to the Karliner shtiebel in Brisk to "learn how to daven." He shlogs op the story - maybe in the name of Reb Dovid Soloveycyk - that there was nothing lacking in the education of Reb Chaim's children, everything he needed to teach they could learn from him. They definitely didn't any screaming Chassidim to teach them! Yet here he taynes that the CI himself (!) told RAC to go to the Chassidim - and Reb Ahrele took his style of davening from Karlin - to learn how to daven!
UPDATE Monday 12 Nissan
I distinctly remember getting a lot of flak from guys here for using the term "KeVeYochol" when referring to the Rebbe. Yet the great Maller has no problem using here when speaking of Reb Aron and his turn to Chassidus later in life. Why is it ok with him? Why no outcry from the self-righteous ones here? Look at line 3 of the clipping I bring at the top of the thread. I even remember some Lubavitchers giving me a hard time about it! I think I've been vindicated.
You jump decades from the thirties to the Beis Yisroel pretty quick.
ReplyDeleteBeis Yisroel used to hang around Brisk and try to get the best bachorim. He influenced a couple
Are you looking for quotes from Litvak's that you can get a varmkeit from davenin by the chasidim? there is much more
R' Yeruchem used to say that he doesn't know what was cheshuver, the Simchas Teyreh-hakofos or der Yom Kippur in Der Mir.
MAL:
ReplyDeletetell me the story
who, what, where?
No way. It is Lason Hora. Anyways, you don't post my pro Shangachay version
ReplyDeleteI posted 98% of your comments
ReplyDeleteBe nice now.
Hirshel.
ReplyDeleteMaybe's Shnangchay comments: they are the truth; at least the version of many Gedoylim. You will have to ask them michelah when you go to the Bes Din Shel Mayleh.
ask whom mechileh?
ReplyDeleteand why are you using the third person when referring to yourself???
ReplyDeleteThe Mirers in Shangchay; for allowing the lahz on them without the counter
ReplyDeletewhaaaat?
ReplyDeletethe counter was posted about 20 times. The last time I didn't let it through because of what was attached to it.
Ok. you should be gebentched
ReplyDeleteEven Maybe, was freaked out by the looking into the eyes stories. oy vey, I can only krechtz mey umkuh dehlibiy, ufn emes
I have no idea what you're saying...
ReplyDeleteand why are you using the third person when referring to yourself???
ReplyDeleteIt is not me; it is my blog name- a seperate entity. Limashal, if I would refer to KC, I would also use the third person
The lefi kvodo is a sheker gas,took from a lebler in the yated. Rac continued to come the hatan raykahn.
ReplyDeleteTzig :
ReplyDeleteYou are completely missing the context and background. In the 1940's Jerusalem became a real melting pot. Many frum Jews even charedim became non religious joining Azel, Hagannah and lechi and even more attended the Hebrew University. See the wonderful books by Haim Beer where he writes about this trend in his youth. Steinsaltz himself is a product of this period.Many perushim joined the yeshiva world and went to learn under the new master talmudists from Der Lita, a new derech that the chachmei Jerusalem had no idea about. Many porushim became chasidim joing the newly arrived Belzer ( ithink Eichler is an example of this) and Gerer zaddikim.Thus Reb Chanaya Schiff the loyal gabbe of the rebbe was a Galicianer Hungarian an eynikel of the Rebbe Reb Elimelech, he joined Ger not his expected satnze ! On the other hand Reb Sholom Noach of Slonim had to revive the Slonim group in the 4 ImhohosHoly cities as that group was falling apart due to defections like Noah Weinberg and his brother and probably their father too. As you write some yeshiva people were attracted to chassidim . New immigrants were arriving from Germany ,(some went to Kol Tore but most Orthodox yekkes became yeshiva people , a few joined Chabad) and later Poland and Hungary and they sought misgorot that suited them not their parents.Rav Amital a Hungarian went to Merkoz harav and Litvishe yeshivas not to Dushinsky.
I just finished reading the new bio of Reb Ezriel Zelig Slonim and you can see that in the 1940's and 50's many Chabad people in Jslm lost their bearings and their Chabad mahus and some joined other misgeros (even a good part of the Havlin family) and many became non religious(like some member of the Slonim family itself). In an interview with the late Rav Halperin of Bays Israel in Kfar Chabad magazine many years ago, he explicity stated this trend that the minhogim and Limud Dach and even hiskashrus were being lost in thsoe years.And that in the 1950's they had to begin basically from scratch.
These were heady years just before the creation of a Jewish state the firast such state in 2000 years.and many fascinating people worked in Jslm like the rav Kuk school (Rabbi Charlap,Reb Zvi Yehuda the Nazir) the Gerer rebbes, Rabbi Ashlag, Rav Arele Roth, the Belzer ruv and of course the Brisker rav and Chazon Ish in Bnai Brak who gathered about him people of all kreisen including many chassidm. Shidduchim between kreisen were not at all unusual Men of the Degel like the late Rav Ravitz and YIBlach Reb Gaffni all hailed from Gerer homes as many shvache Gerer defected to the yeshiva world.Many children of the Polish chassdim who came to israel in the 1930's either became Mizrachi (like Dr. Yitzhak Alfasi or yeshivish) On the other hand men like Rav Shiloh Refael a great gaon and grandson of Rabbi Fishman-Maimon defected from the Mafdal and became a Gerer.
halevai we had that same freedom and spiritual searching today, where the Torah that fits YOUR soul was sought not somehting that made a grandfather in olem haemes happy. (or that made a sahdchan rich and happy).
By the early 1960 things became more institutionalized, money and kavod became much more important, israel itself became more routine , many of the gedolim were gone or old and a new stage was reached -institutionalization. By the 1990's we were at the 3rd stage - decline.Thats why at this point we need a new Reb Arele to give chassidus a new chiyus a new meaning beyond family affiliation or royal weddings or yes let me say it clothing.
In fact there was a certain commonality between Slobodka -Chevron and Reb Arele both were makpid on their clothing and chitzoniyuth.I will let the reader draw conclusions about the eternal validity of either group...
Sorry for repeating myself, but I'm still wondering does anyone know the background of the current Chevron Rosh Yeshiva, Rov Dovid Cohen. Who is his father and shver?
ReplyDeleteanswers- reb dovid cohen of chevron is a son of reb yosef cohen dayan rabbanut all the years and son in law of reb tzvi pesach frank , he is a tzaddik and gaon and not related to hebron family.
ReplyDelete>Anonymous said...I'm still wondering does anyone know the background of the current Chevron Rosh Yeshiva, Rov Dovid Cohen. Who is his father and shver?<
ReplyDeleteSee here:
http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5761/beshalach/arcohen.htm
Thank you, Jay!
ReplyDeleteSchneur
ReplyDeletea lange Teyreh, ober nit dos hub ich gemeint....
Tzig
ReplyDeleteI hope you are joking about the update. Your tzu shtel is not even kaviyochel a tzu shtel.
of course not!
ReplyDeletethis is the Heilige Brisker historian we're talking about!
There is an important nafka mina in the use of 'Kavayochol'.
ReplyDeleteNo-one ever, under any circumstances, would have considered using the language of divinity on RAC.
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to wish you Ah kosher'en un freilachen Peysach. I have not left but have been posting under a variety of names.
please assist me...i have seen the term 'chnyok' used several times on this blog. my limited knowledge of yiddish is of course an impairment; but when i asked my hungarian born wife and shver, they both did not recognize the word. anyone...?
ReplyDeleteAmhooretz
You know who:
ReplyDeletecan you email me?
neveler at gmail dot com
Thanks.
For the record; the Briskers sent their kids to a Chasidic cheder. Der Bostner has many stories how his Rebeyem used to chepper him, because he came from the Bais Harav.
ReplyDeleteThere was a a Chasidic Dayan on the Beis Din with R'Simcha Zelig.
There are a few chasidic vertlach that R'Chaym used to say over, most famously the one about Avrohom Avinu and the being mashbiah Eleyezer and mey mirevah.
Schneour,
ReplyDelete"Rav Amital a Hungarian went to Merkoz harav and Litvishe yeshivas not to Dushinsky." I think you are mistaken about R'Amital learning in Merkaz Harav, he learned in Chevron after arriving in Eretz Yisroel after the war.
Also Rabbi Halperins father was not Lubavitch if I'm not mistaken, he was from the Ruzhiner line, his mother or grandmother were descended from the Alter Rebbe.
Tzig
ReplyDeleteThe guys name is Shimy MELLER, not Maller.
Stam azoi, the Chevroner yeshiva was not "losing boys" to chasidim,even the chevra who became close to the Beis Yisroel such as R'Shilo Refael z'l, R'Yakov Weil, and one of the Roshei yeshiva R'Moshe Chevroini's own son who was later on a magid shiur in Chevron, and died young,never left Chevron a=nd did not don chasidishe levush.
For those of you who missed today's Shiur:
ReplyDeleteאבל תורה שלא לשמה ממש כגון להיות ת"ח וכה"ג אינה עולה כלל למעלה אפי' להיכלו' ומדור המלאכים דקדושה אלא נשארת למטה בעוה"ז הגשמי שהוא מדור הקליפות
וכמ"ש בזהר על פסוק מה יתרון לאדם בכל עמלו שיעמול תחת השמש דאפילו עמלא דאורייתא אי עביד בגין יקריה כו' וז"ש אשרי מי שבא לכאן ותלמודו בידו פי' שלא נשאר למטה בעוה"ז.
Beis Yisroel used to hang around Brisk and try to get the best bachorim.
ReplyDeleteOne of the boys that he "chapped" was r' avromie schorr !!
Chasidim Ger included would be better off with Avremel Shoir staying a misnaged, his ego is beyond beyond chassidus
ReplyDeleteSchor learned in Brisk?
ReplyDeleteHis father was very much influenced by Gerer Torah
I talk the kinderlach to Schorr's pravereray, for a few minutes, and after he finished, Abish Sang. They asked me who is singing.
I said that it is someone who is almost as famous as Lipa. People around me actually thought it was funny; they must have been tourists
Maybe
ReplyDeletehe was more into Reb Tzodek/ Izhbitza
Wasn't R Avrohom Mordechai Cohen the shver of R Shlomo Freifeld? His shver had the same name and was a big Koidenover.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the Beis haLevi's shver was a Lechovitcher chasid.