I have to say that my appreciation of this day and its significance grew exponentially over the last few years as I got to read on various blogs what the supporters of the other side have to say on this subject.
Interesting note. Judge Charles Sifton recently died aged 74.He was the judge presiding over the seforim court case.No mention in his obituary was made about this case so I guess it was no seen as very important in his more than 30 years on the Federal bench. Chabad.org did make mention of his passing.
I personally felt horrible at the unabashed rejoicing of Lubavitch inc on their "victory" against a Jew and the last scion of the the Frierdiger Rebbe .Especially in a secular court .Accepting that they had a heter for a very public trial in a secular court it is still very troubling that instead of privately savoring the victory they have made this into a yom tov of "binfoil oyvecho".Many people I spoke to shared this sentiment. The truth is that Lubavitch were rightfully fearful that they could lose the case, something that there was a good chance of happening in a Beis Din.
(the "heter" was unconvincingly written up at the behest of...by R'Ayzik Schvei.Not very convincing because he was not exactly unbiased, but let us not dwell on these minute details)
"also was the Stoliner Rebbe's heter to dance at his child's wedding during shivah ok in your eyes???"
I must have the wrong blog.Weren't you the guy complaining about comparing Rubashkins case to the Spinker, as in apples and oranges...? So, you are just grasping for straws...vi kimt der Stoliner Chasunah arayn du? Vi a katz in zauer milech
the comparison is simple; here we have a Rebbe in the middle of SHIVAH who dances publicly at his son's wedding, and publishes a pamphlet of heterim. Do you think those heterim were also shvach and biased?
Smart response. Typical answer to try and drag another rebbe in when there is absoloutely no shaychus."See that rebbe did something ,also"
Without knowing all the details the Stoliner had many hetterim written before he was born, including,if I'm not mistaken a teshuva by R'Moshe Feinstein being mattir.These cases have been extensively discussed pre Stolin and are noiteh to kuleh9genearl klal in aveilus).The reason you never heard of it is min hastam, because it's not mentioned in Sichos or Hayom Yom .
Whatever the case this has nothing to do with the seforim case. Ess hot zech arois gelost a boydem
I did not read the Teshuva.I squirmed at the thought that a teshuva from a chosid, the biggest nogea badovor would even be considerd a fig leaf by the "thinking Chassidus"
R'Ayzik, had he not gotten stuck in Chabad would have been migdolei haroshyeshivas and a leader in am yisroel. Yeah, I think a beis din gave a heter, but really that was not the point.It's just disgusting to make a "yom tov" out of the downfall of another yid.We all know that actually, Barry had a very good case and could have easily worked out a monetary agreement with him.He needed the funds not the seforim, he was down on his luck and it was especially hard on someone from such a princely background
Yekkishe, Don't fall for this Lubavitchers trap. Stolins chasena has zero to do with this "yom tov" of binfol oyvecho. He is just setting you up for a straw mans argument. Let him deal with the ugliness of the facts .
Guys try not to argue with the bal hablog.He is never wrong or more accurately never admits to being wrong. Small example was when he screws up the name of a street in Yerusholayim.A street that every American yeshiva bochur has heard of and knows,yet this bal hablog who claims knowledge of all things going on in the frum kehillos is clueless about.No bigee.If he would admit to making a mistake. Than the "other" post mocking a Jews Peyos.After getting over the head, he actually claims to be on "our side"!Again he never admits that mocking a yids peyos,ANY YIDS PEYOS IS A NO-NO!! So anyway trying to explain to this fellow how tasteless and crass it is to make a big yom tov out of beating the eynikel is , is apparently a waste of time. Lubavitch always get it right (even when they don't)
Avremel, "against a Jew and the last scion of the the Frierdiger Rebbe ."
The Miteler Rebbe was celebrating a Chag Hageula on a victory for a court case he had with his Nephew.. so don't pity the Beis Horav, you would anyway hate if he would be Rebbe Material,
"He needed the funds not the seforim, he was down on his luck and it was especially hard on someone from such a princely background"
AVREMEL, Seems to me that you would justify a robbery for those who are 'down on their luck'. What is the connection. He could have been starving and homeless and it would still no justify his gneivas.
"they should of asked, Belsky and Reb Shlomo Miller, the truly non biased against Chabad people,what a idiot you are."
Tell me, chaver, even basic English they did not teach you, wherever it is that you went to school? Actually, if you are the same nasty anonymous , you are a Sakmoiry turned Lubavitcher, so I"ll give you a pass on this
And, btw, haguen hagudel, the idea of asking someone biased is what I pointed out.R'Aizik was a Lubavitcher, to ask him to write a teshuva is wrong.Get it? Nothing to with the actual psak. Hirshel
Grow up and stop censoring my comments,ok? Did not write anything wrong there
I know I am also a nogeia b'davar since I like Chabad, but I understand Hey Teves.
The idea of the Rebbe as "public entity", belonging to his Chassidim, vs. Rebbe as private man trying to recoop some private belongings by hook and crook, lying to the government and correspondents in order to achieve that end.
The court victory was seen as a vindication in the way Chassidim perceive their relationship to their rebbe. As Sifton's ruling made clear, the US Law mechanism of Public-Trust was the Civil-Law equivalent of Rn Chaya Mushka's claim. I never saw this as being about BG losing.
I never understood the it-was-only-about-money angle. I have read that the Rashag was quite wealthy.
Interesting tidbit from the NYT: R'Lieberman "also confessed to burning some papers pertinent to the case,"!!!
Didn't he and his wife work, plus he had no children, his father had alot of money,just in case he needed a new Sub Zero Refrigerator or for a pair of Shimusha Raba Tefilin.
This is a commonsense issue that his grand father wanted a Libray for Chabad, thousands of people are enjoying now thru Hebrewbooks.org but when it gets to Chabad people lose their balance.The Gerer Rebbe spent lately alot of Money to get back his grandfathers Library.
"He needed the funds not the seforim, he was down on his luck and it was especially hard on someone from such a princely background" "
The point I was making was that Barry would have agreed to be paid for his part of the yerusha.He had no problem giving back the seforim. And.....Since we never had a din toiroh , he may have had a real Toiredigeh tayna.So who knows maybe this library of Lubavitch is actually, not theirs...
Avremel, "even basic English they did not teach you" proud Oholie Torahnik with no secular studies, the more Griezen the better, you have a bechira not to answer
"I never understood the it-was-only-about-money angle. I have read that the Rashag was quite wealthy."
Barry apparently was not wealthy and I"m not sure where you know what Rashag had.
Barry sold the seforim, so it seems that it was about money.
Btw,I applaud you about your honesty in admitting that you are biased.It's clear you are not a full fledged Lubavitcher because they never admit to being "biased" they are always "objectively" right.
Avremel, Reb Eizik was not a Dayan in this case , he just wrote a Teshuva, you think the Chasam Sofer didn't pasken for Pressburgh when they had a monetary problem, what a idiotic argument.
I said requesting a teshuva to go to erko'os from a chosid who knows what his rebbe wants is wrong.Difficult to understand? And please don't slander the Chasam Sofer sitting bedin where he was a noge'ah.
Anonymous, Happy to hear you are not a Satmar grad.The only thing worse than going to Oholei Torah would be going to Satmar.It can't help that this "frum" group is named after a goyishe saint
Avremel writes:"Since we never had a din toiroh , he may have had a real Toiredigeh tayna"
why do you show off your ignorance?You obviously have no clue about hilchot yerushoh. By Torah-law, the 2 daughters would have inherited the private belongings of the previous Rebbe. The same Torah-law also states that their husbands have full rights and benefits of what their wives inherit (as well as other possessions). NOTHING, nada, absolutely zero, for wife (except full support) and grandchildren. When the wife dies - husband inherits everything. This leaves the Rebbe and his brother-in-law in charge, and his b-i-l sided fully with the Rebbe, thus leaving everything to Rebbe [if he - as you like to see it] had looked at it as private possessions. Thus in halachah the grandson had no claim whatsoever.
Avremel, it's time to quiet down and learn the story well, who the people involved were, what they did with their lives before the case happened, whom they consulted with, what was being done with the seforim before the issue went to court, and what the ruling of the judge was, before you mention any more facts about a story you clearly know very little about.
A thought. There is something very strange about the whole celebration. In no other Chassidus or group of like-minded Jews is there a precedent of such a public celebration about a victory that concerns only them. There are many groups that have cause to celebrate, and yet we don't hear it or read about it. Any celebrating (not getting involved whether the celebration is warranted) is done privately and in a very toned down way, as befits the nation of Vehatzneah Leches Im Elokecha. Get your vodka out of my face.
Now you just sound stupid. You know, sometimes you write such sensible things, and other times you just sound like another whiny lubab. You feel my pain? Which pain might that be? Write tzum zach, not like a loser.
Voice of truth, "group of like-minded Jews is there a precedent of such a public celebration about a victory that concerns only them" Every old kehila in Yiddishen Folk had days that they celebrated as a Purim, in the famous 2 teshuvahs of the Chasam Sofer he wants to make them as a Semi Deoiraisa, so put your true foot in your true mouth before you utter the truth. BTW, did you ever hear of a Kehila as Satmar? they are celebrating the 21st of Kislev for the Hatzola of Rabbi Joel with the help of the Zionists... they celebrated it for the last 40 to 50 years in every corner that a Satmar chosid ever put his foot down,eventough that outside of Reb Yoel we left their behind in the gas chambers 6 million Jews.
A friend of mine asked me, how come it their is no outcry, that Zalmen Lieb stole from his brother the Yerusha,with no din torah or court even? or Abish Horowitz of Spinka,stole from all his brothers,etc... what is this heart bleeding crocodile tears every year on 5th of teveth on a semi orthodox person that is dead with no kids ? is it maybe because its the Rebbe? and certain people love to hate him???? is their some answers for the $64000 question ?
Voice of Truth ". Any celebrating is done privately and in a very toned down way " I don't think if you celebrate for a Nes from Hashem and you give him blessings it should be done in the darkness of the Night, is Halel being said in your Shul in the same quiet tone as the tefilas hoamida?
התשובה שהבאתי לעיל הי' תשובת הרב הרשקוביץ מצאנז מיד בתחילת הסיפור
הרבי שלח את הרב משה בוגמילסקי לשאול את דעתו של רב לא חב"די בענין
הרב הרשקוביץ ענה, שאת פרטי הדברים שכתב הרבי ריי"צ שזה שייך לציבור אין הוא יודע והוא צריך לקראות הדברים ומה גם שלא שמע הצד כשכנגד
אבל גם בלי לשמוע הצד שכנגד ברור שאין לו שום רשות למכור הספרים- אפילו לשיטתו שזה ירושה מפני שהרבי וגם גיסו הרש"ג היו בחיים חיותם בעלמא דין ושניהם התנגדו למכירה כך ברור כשמש שאסור לו למכור את זה ובכל דין תורה הי' מפסיד גם בלי להכנס למה שכתב הרבי ריי"צ שזה נכס של אגודת חסיד חב"ד
גם בענין ההליכה לבית משפט שאל הרבי את דעתו של הרב ישראל יצחק פיקארסקי שהי'חסיד סוכוטשוב תלמיד ישיבת חכמי לובלין וראש ישיבת 770
בתחילה הי' הרב שהרבי הי' שואל את שאלותיו בהלכה הי' החסיד הרב שמואל לעוויטין, מלפנים רב העיר ראקשיק לאחר פטירתו באלול תשל"ד שאל הרבי את אב"ד קראון הייטס הרב זלמן שמעון דבארקין לאחר פטירתו באדר תשמ"ה שאל הרבי את שאלותיו את הרב פיקארסקי גם בנידון זה לפני שנגשו לבית משפט הלכו אליו ושטחו לפניו כל פרטי הסיפור ותשובתו הי' שלא רק שמותר אלא מוכרחץ
Anon, you will never satisfy the haters, Reb Fishele is a chasidisher yid with non Nemonas
Rav Pikarsky is on the Rebbes Payroll (eventough technically he was on the payroll of the Reshag,Horav Hatzadik Reb Barry's father)with no Nemonas. the Rebbe had one option left to ask Horav Nati Grossman of the Yesed, the one only non biased person on earth.
I obviously have more than a little to say about Heh Teves, and most of it was said on other places. I see no sense in re hashing the subject, let all the 6 principles rest in peace. There are no yorshim on either side vechuli vechuli. Lets move on. I will add that The Rashag headed ULY for over 50 years and left a estate of about 1 million, can any other menahel/ fund raiser of such a mosad say the same. Imagine if he were from BP he would have left over 8 million... I am certain that 1 day in the future both sides case will be seen by both sides in a more objective manner. Meanwhile people should make use of the library at 770 and carry out th epurpose of the victory.
I challenge you to find where I 'made fun' of Stolin
to compare the court cases of Stolin, I assume you mean with the Alte Karliner, to what happened in the period prior to 5 Teves is ridiculous. I CANNOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH!!!
The $ that Rashag left behind wasn't from the money he raised for the Yeshivah. He made his money over the years as a legitimate investor; and not by fleecing the Yeshivah with outrageous fund-raising commission rates (like other have). He was an extraordinary fundraiser totally devoted to the institution he so capably administrated.
His role in the 'didan notzach' saga was extraordinary as well.
Btw, if my memory serves me correctly, after Rashag's petiroh, the Rebbe said something to the effect of Rashag still being the Yeshivah's "מנהל פועל".
Why did the good grandson have to sneak the seforim out if the law was on his side? At any rate, Here is what Rabbi M. Bogomilsky writes re: going to court: "Rabbi Yehudah Krinsky consulted with Poskei Halachah, who ruled that, since Barry was selling the books, it was permissible Halachically to go to the Federal Court to get a restraining order, in order to prevent any monetary losses until a Din Torah could be arranged. [He refers to Igros Moshe Ch"M vol. 2 Siman 11 - I did not look it up.] "Rabbi Krinsky and Mr. Nathan Lewin went to the Brooklyn Federal Court to seek a restraining order. At that time, Mr. Lewin told the court, "We are here because the defendant is actually selling the books. If the judge would give an order that the books be placed in a safe location and he would be prevented from selling them, we are prepared to carry on the rest of the court case before a rabbinic court". "Mr. Hellerstein, Barry's lawyer, reacted, "Oh, no, your honor. The case is now in court, and we would like the court to decide who owns the entire library - we claim that it all belongs to the family, not the community." Ad kan. Anyone who knows the events of that period is aware how much physical and emotional pain the Rebbe suffered on account if this whole story. When the Rebbe won, and his pain was alleviated, Chassidim rejoiced because they love the Rebbe. In general, there's an easy barometer to use to understand why Chabad dislike certain people: someone who causes the Rebbe agmas nefesh is disliked, and someone who cause the Rebbe nachas is admired. I don't think there is a yotzei min haklal.
"to compare the court cases of Stolin, I assume you mean with the Alte Karliner, to what happened in the period prior to 5 Teves is ridiculous. I CANNOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH!!!"
I"m getting sick of you, you are such a fool! So blinded by the kool-aid you have been given.
The Lubavitch make it sound like an unbelievable miracle happened on Hey Teves.Nothing of the sort actually. A private monetary dispute between a feuding Jewish family went to a secular court and one side won.The side that had the resources and money, mind you. Nothing changed for the Jewish people.Nothing.What would have happened is that some musty seforim, rarely or never used would have changed hands. Big deal! For this a shrill hater like Hirshel screams his head off,Berl CH becomes apocalyptic and Yehupitz shows how much he wants to be accepted by the Lubavitch crowd even at the cost of losing any remaining credibility. Sad.
הרבי הביא ראיה לזה מהעובדה שבספריה היו לא רק ספרי חסידות, אלא גם ספרים סתם ואפי' ספרי אפיקורסות, שהסיבה היחידה לזה היא מפני שהספריה שייכת לאגודת חסידי חב"ד, ולכן טיפחו את הספריה ושמו בה גם ספרים כאלו, כדי שהיא תהיה אור לא רק לחסידים או ליהודים אלא אפי' לגויים.
"ולכן נמצאים בספרי' של הרבי, לא רק ספרי חב"ד אע"פ שכל ענינו של הרבי היה חסידות, אלא גם ספרים חסידיים אחרים וגם ספרי נגלה, ויותר מזה גם ספרים לא תורניים, אלא "וועלטישע" ספרים (סתמיים), עד גם ספרי אפיקורסות, וזהו מכיון שכאמור הרבי רצה שהספריה שלו תהיה פתוחה בשביל כולם, לא רק בשביל חסידי חב"ד, או לחסידים ויהודים בכלל, אלא גם בשביל לא יהודים. לכן הוא השתדל לאסוף לספריה שלו כל מיני ספרים, לא רק ספרים יהודיים, אלא גם ספרים אחרים.
הטעם בפשטות מדוע כ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר רצה שהספריה תהיה פתוחה לכולם ולכן הוא החזיק שם גם ספרי גויים וספרי אפיקורסות, כיון שליובאוויטש היא אור לגוים!
In an unbelievable example of what the challenge of the library did to the people running Chabad, they were prepared to admit that the Rayatz collected even "sifrei apikorsus" so that "goyim" could also visit the library. I mean how strange is this??
I wonder what the apologists are going to say now? The Hebrew was taken from Shturem.net and are the words of the rebbe. Amazing. Yehupitz,any thing to explain? extra hiskashres points
IN Yiddish there is a saying "Baym Ganef brent dos hittel". Barry Gourary had no kitrug on the nesius neither did Channa Gourary, Although they both thought someone else was more "raui" to the job ,but by 1986 they had made peace with reality , which in the human sense was sad for all the remaining 6 members of the Royal family. Only in the mind of someone who perhaps in the deepest recesses of his heart and mind felt that he really was not the right person for the position did this public need for approval suddenly arise. Perhaps that person knew what the Rayaatz stated in his will or felt that in fact the sole eynikel was closer to the Rayaatz than he was while in West Europe. The Rebbe knew Bere wanted money and that nesius was not the issue, but to blur the issues he raised the issueof a kitrug on his nesius . And pray tell me did a Besdin rule on the legitimacy of the Nesius, no it was an "orel" who did according to Chukei Akum. How is this of any importance for a heimishe Yid. Perhaps Rabbi Schick could get an American or British judge to rule that he is the Admor of Bratzlav and the heir of Rav Nachman , i am sure that reb Michoel Dorfman Z"L would have chapped a hispaylus from such a ruling and immediately called Reb Schick and coronated him as the new rav Nachman !!! I am also interested what the taitsch is of the whole parsha of "asher Nasi yechte"??? Is this refering to a hedyot or a gadol be Israel ? Finally to remove materials one feels is his according to rules of yerushah is not an improper act, it may be disputable but not improper, To use the logic of Lubavitch if it was so clearly improper why did it take the gaon Judge Sifton almost a year to rule on something our correspondent rules clearly improper ? Friends, for all the years until 1986 the Chabad communtiy thought of these books as the proerty of the Schneersohn family that had not been divided. So i was told in the 1970's by every Lubavitcher I talked to (of course in those days these people were mostly geza). Rebbetzin Nechama Dina wrote a will indicating clearly that thats what she believed. the libraian who built the collection the RACHAL thought so, the Rashag who never left his shvers side thought so too. Only 1 person thought differently. I recall when the case first started a zaken Anash told me "ich mish zich nit" and this was a man dedicated to the 7th rebbe. So things were not that clear.
I notice you will not touch the claim that the library even had "sifrei apikorsus" so that gentiles could enjoy "Lubavitch ohr lagoyim". Never seen such twisted stuff
Reading the Lubavitch "account" of this law suit is an eye opener into understanding latter day Chabad.A must read.The best way is to read Lubavitcher sources
IMHO, 5 Teves was the beginning of the takeover of Lubavitch by the PR machine. The Rebbe's death, the unravelling of Chabad, the paralysis of modern Israel and the tsunami of nihilism, apathy and despair tell us we haven't found the way of golus yet.
Keep up smoke screen. Again the rebbe made a claim that the Rayatz collected sifrei apikorsus. Got anything to answer? I've never seen such a twisted notion that it was so "gentiles would visit".Are you allowed to give gentiles "sifrei apikorsus"? Astounding.
you're claiming that the Rebbe lied (afrah LePumaych) when he said that the FR had sifrei apikorsus in the Library, right? do you know that NOT to be the fact?!
do you havea list of all books committed to memory, perhaps?
Shafaleh, I see I have to be careful with you. Hungarians are not known for their sense of humour or ability to pick up nuance. So... I was going easy on him, so I said "claimed" of course I thought it was true AND THAT WAS THE POINT!! That Lubavitch were prepared to admit that in this library were "sifrei minnus"! Hello?!!.Sifrei minnus in a library belonging to a Chabad rebbe?? You don't see something "interesant" (and please don't be so dense as not to pick up the nuance of "interesant")
Anon 4;42 "Barry Gourary had no kitrug on the nesius neither did Channa Gourary" are you realy sure that they had no problem with the Rebbes Nesius? their are a lot of documents circulating in Chabad that show the facts to be differently, from your writing I see that the facts doesnt matter much since your mind is made up already.
Anon 4;42 " in the deepest recesses of his heart and mind felt that he really was not the right person for the position "
Were you maybe the Rebbes shrink? did he ever come to lay on the couch of your office? or did your friend the shrink(since it seems you belong to that community) release the Rebbes diagnosis. I can help you on bit maybe, to be a little more factual, not only hotair, the Rebbe answered all his life Azkir Al hatzion, and realy took all the Panim to the Shver.
"did a Besdin rule on the legitimacy of the Nesius, no it was an "orel" who did according to Chukei Akum"
Nesius of a rebbe is certified according to halacha by one simple thing, where the majority of chasidim feel they have to go(famous statement of the Divrei Chaim)there was no need to get legitimacy by no beis din, especially after the Reshag had full bitul for the Rebbe, so what the hell are you talking..
Anon4;42 "almost a year to rule on something our correspondent rules clearly improper ? " as a new yorker I can vouch you that a year in court is very fast even for a parking ticket.
This 'Jaim' really is daft and you're wasting your time with him.
The library has all sorts of books, science , math , astrology, medicine from all sorts of people who sent in their publications over the years.
Otzar hachochma has hundreds of books that are not for bnei teyre, but for research purposes.
I dont hear this little pesky chihuahua barking elsewhere, but when it comes to Lubavitch he begins to show his idiodicy. He should start a one man campaign with a billboard and picket signs against them.
He is such an idiot he thinks he chapped a nail here to hang something on. Only himself...only himself.
LW The Rebbe claimed the sifrei minnus were for goyim. See what was copied earlier from Shturem.Nothing strange about that?
"All our greats were knowledgable in Sifrei Minus."
That was certainly not derech hachasidus.In fact even Moreh Nevuchim was out of bounds.
Look, this really touches on earlier history with the Malochim, if you've heard of them.R'Avrohom Levin aka Der Malech had a fall out with RASH"B over this, he was a tutor for Rayztz
Hey Teves has become a day of personal teshuvoh for me. For what? For having some compassion for Barry during those dark days. I thought, "so sad", "der einikel", bla, bla, bla... I have simply failed to realize that Barry was a soineh who cared not at all for the mission of the Royal Family – to serve the Jewish Nation – and hence deserved ZERO allegiance from chasidei Chabad. I am indebted to Schneur for helping me come to this realization now.
I will say nothing about the retarded comment on the length of the legal process as proof of propriety of Barry's gezeloh.
What chasidim thought in the 1970's about the library means quite close to absolute zero. The FR letters where not yet published, hence no one has seen his 1940 letters to US trying to save the library. Beside that, those people had no idea what the Rebbe's opinion on the subject was. Which is really the only thing that matters anyways...
Anyone who said, "ich mish zach nit" was a nifrod and a menuvol.
מגוחך לראות אנשים שאין להם טיפת הבנה בענין ואין להם שום שייכות למדובר חוץ משנאתם לחב"ד שינקו בחלב אימם מוצאים כמה מילים ומביישים את עצמם ברבים
וכי מאסר הרבי האמצעי שנגרם ע"י שמחה קאסין שרצה להתנקם בהרבי האמצעי מפני שלא עשה שידוך עם משפחתו לא הי' קטרוג על נשיאות אדמו"ר האמצעי וכי אתה חושב ששמחה קאסין המלשין רצה להיות אדמו"ר,
וכי העובדא שכשאדמו"ר האמצעי אמר חסידות לפני פטירתו וכובע נפל עליו והפסיק שראה בזה קטרוג על גילוי החסידות, האם החסיד שהכובע שלו נפל רצה להפסיק אמירת החסידות
אלא נשיאי חב"ד חושבים מיד על כל העלם והסתר על גילוי החסידות כהוראה שיש למעלה קטרוג
האם מישהו חושב כמו שעלה במוחכם הטיפשי שבארי רוצה (דוקא כן רצה ולכך הי' מרוגז עם ליובאוויטש) ויכול להיות אדמו"ר
אלא הכל הוא הוראה על למעלה
אבל אתם שהענין היחיד שאתם מגיעים לכאן היא רק לנגח ולהראות השנאה הארסית שינקתם בחלב איממכם, ואין לכם שום הבנה בנושא תעשו טובה לעצמכם ואל תכניסו האף שלכם
Tzig. The long comment by Annonymous dibbur hamaschil Bayn ganev brennt dos hittel is plagerized word for word from coments I wrote several years ago on a different blog .Please I am not interested in rehashing this stuff. Whoever used these comments never asked my permission. They may be in the public domain, but bifnei am veda I declare I had nothing to do with this posting ! As I wrote I do wish to invovle myself in this case which is now history.
Shortly after Hey Teves, a prominent Chabad Rabbi from England wished the Rebetzein "Gut Yom tov" , She replied in Yiddish "by unz es iz nit kein yom tov" by us (the family) it's not a yom tov.
So please Hershel its not so black and white.
Another point
Aguch at the time followed the advice of their attorney's. The arguments used in court regarding the rebbe belonging to the chassidim and the Seforim being owned by Aguch, a public entity, seems to be more of a legal argument then a fact.
It was argued in court that the Farbraingens were the public meeting needed for a public Corporation.
An argument could be made that if the above mentioned argument was a true argument and not just a legal loophole and all Chasidim are members of Aguch then the Rebbe had no right (or legal power) in 91 to restructure Aguch as a private corporation. it should have been done by a public farbraingen.
Schneur said. Ich mish zich mer nisht are you an x nifrod or an x menuvel you helped Barry! the Reyatz will be machzik toive for helping his einikel,don't be a mischaret on a mitsvah
If it was so very obvious that the library belonged to the chassidim, how come one (two?) of the daughters of the Friedeker Rebbe and his chief librarian weren't aware of that?
Also, concerning the library belonging to all chassidim... Really? When is the last time anyone stepped into that library. Most chassidim have no idea where it is (specifically, as opposed to knowing it's somewhere in the building next to 770) and have never been inside.
Finally, why did the Rebbe have to make it a public fight? Why did he have to have all Lubavitch hate his sister-in-law and nephew? Even if he was totally convinced that he was right, couldn't he have solved it privately? Couldn't he have told chassidim it's none of your business; it's a private matter?
Anonymous. Are you saying that talking about this matter is going to change anything. Perhaps we can repeal Social Security, maybe by talking about it, we can make the US part of England again ? What happened , happened my views are clear and wee made public many times , but whats the maayle of rehashing things. It would be different if there were de facto yorshim from the Gourary side , but there are not As I wrote time and circumstances will change the way this matter is viewed even by Chabad community.
ראשית כל תשובתי אליך היא רק עם אתה חפץ לדעת האמת אך אם לא תעשה טובה דלג על הדברים 1) העובדא שהספרי' היא נכס של "אגודת חסידי חב"ד" הי' ברור מכתבי הרבי ריי"צ והמודעות וכו' של הספרי' במשך השנים
זה שהבת והספרן לא (רצו) לדעת, היא בגלל רצונם שזה יהי' פרטי
2)הרבי כן ניסה לטפל בבעי' בפרטיות , הרבי באמצעות גיסו הרש"ג אביו של בערי ניסה לדבר על ליבו להחזיר הספרים, והוא סירב.
באותו זמן כבר מכר הרבה ספרים, ורצה למכור עוד לא הי' ברירה כי אם לעצור את זה ע"י הכרזת הסיפור בפומבי, שכולם שקנו או רצו לקנות שידעו שזה גניבה, והי' מוכרח ללכת לבית משפט שהם יקחו הספרים מביתו בטרם הוא ימכור עוד ספרים.
3) העובדא שכל החסידים אין להם גישה חפשית לספרי' אינו משנה העובדא שזה נכס החסידים. רק מכיון שזה נועד ל"חוקרים" כל אחד שחוקר ענין מלא טופס ויכול לראות הספרים שרוצה בספרי'. חוץ מזה שישנו תערוכות לעיתים קרובות בו מייצגים ענינים מהספרי'
העובדא שכל החסידים אין להם גישה חפשית לספרי' אינו משנה העובדא שזה נכס החסידים. רק מכיון שזה נועד ל"חוקרים" כל אחד שחוקר ענין מלא טופס ויכול לראות הספרים שרוצה בספרי'. חוץ מזה שישנו תערוכות לעיתים קרובות בו מייצגים ענינים מהספרי=== ========================================= Unbelievable apologetics! Absolute nonsense!
How come no Lubavitchers are answering my questions?? I asked what are "sifrei minnus" doing in a Orthodox Jewish library?? What kid of an answer is the claim that it's for gentiles??Are you allowed to give a gentile "sifrei minnus"???Is it not "lifnei iver"
It would be interesting to know the last time any gentile asked for these "sifrei apikorsus".Probably never and I"m sure no yid ever did either.Besides for this library not being exactly an "open library" contrary to the Lubavitch claim that it"s "owned" by the chasidim. So it seems that somebody had a hobby collecting "books" any books, seforim, sifrei minim, whatever just like a stamp collection.Somehow Orthodox Jews are supposed to believe that winning over this library in court is a big victory for all Jews.Even a guy like Yehupitz thinks so. Sorry, most Jews will not allow this wool to be passed over their eyes!
btw לא הבנתי מה אתה מכחיש 1) הספרי' היא ספרי' ציבורית זו עובדא שהודגש הרבה פעמים במשך השנים למשל ב1949 קיבלה הספרי' ספרים מחברה בשם "jewish cultural reconstruction inc." שהי' מיועד רק לספריות ציבוריות והודגש בטופס שהספרי' חתם שאסור למכור הספרים ומכיון שהספרי' מיועדת לחוקרים לכך הספרי' היתה זכאי לקבל הספרים.
אתה מכחיש את זה???
2) הספרי' היא נכס חסידי חב"ד כך הבהיר הרבי ריי"צ במכתבו לד"ר מרקס בו כתב במפורש "הספרי' היא נכס אגודת חסידי חב"ד" דהיינו חסידי חב"ד
ועוד הרבה ראיות מודעות שפרסם הרבי ריי"צ בחוברות שונות ואיזה קופה שילם לכל ההוצאות
ואדמו"ר הריי"צ הי' שו"ע איד וידע טוב מה מותר ומה אסור, ואם אסף גם ספרי מינות בשביל מטרה מסוימת אני בטוח שהוא ידע שזה מותר ע"פ שו"ע ==================================== You ever heard "bimkom chilul Hashen ein cholkim kovod leruv"??? I don't see that you answered my question about the rebbe saying that sifrei apikorsus was for "goyim". Are you allowed to offer goyim "sifrei minehs"? Answer, please.
What I meant with the books in Poland (i saw that berel levin said it was 117 boxes of which 100 were retrieved,i think he is referring to this library)was that precious resources of goowill and money were wasted,yes wasted to get these books out of Poland while Jews were suffering there terribly.I wonder also whether there were "sifrei apikorsus" saved bemesiras nefesh in this shipment in case some Jamaican neighbor needs to look up some "apikorsus".It's just so twisted
Also,Yehuda, let's agree that somehow collecting sifrei minnehs is appropriate for a rebbe,but why did the rebbe have to announce this to everyone, bepharhesyah?And I do think you realize that the reason given why sifrei minehs were collected, was that also goyim could be neheneh is ridiculous.
You know that if Lubavitch found these seforim in Lakewoods Oitser they'd be making huge protests. Twisted. The Lubavitchers don't even realize what you want from them.I don't have any real opinion to whom the library belonged.Don't know.The issue was making this victory in goyishe court into a yom tov.Making the challenge against the library as a challenge against Yiddishkait.Silly,twisted.
You have a library with tours and displays, and librarians. How can you say that nobody knows about it,I understand that the guy that smears the bagels on Kingston ave doesn't know about that library, but whoever has some regard for seforim knows about that place for the 25 years.
One of the interesting issues that even Lubavitchers are asking questions about is that this library is basically a white elephant.It is not used by anyone, hardly.It is not an open library is is the "toy" of a couple of bibliophiles. The one big miracle is that HebrewBooks.org, powered by two non Lubavitcher nedivim Frieberg and Tzvi Rayzman and founded by a Lubavitcher guy convince Chabad to allow many seforim, about 20 thousand so far to be scanned.So this is an actual to'eles very late in this hey teves "miracle didon notzach" game. I thing this is almost the only saving grace for the library
Jaim The answer is simple that the Frierdiger Rebbe was the Tzadik Hador decided to have it in his library, then it his Daas Toireh and you are Apikores if your are skeptic on Daas Torah
Anon, I realize that you may be making fun and just posting a cynical response to what a Lubavitcher would answer. Truth be told however,I"m less surprised by collecting these seforim and can accept that there was a legitimate reason for them.What really surprised me was the reason given that it was for "goyim"!And the attempt to prove that this library was meant as community property because it was "even meant for goyim because Lubavitch is a light for the nations". How ridiculous can you get?I don't for one second think that the Raytz was thinking of "goyim" when he collected books.With his tzores through the years from them he was not exactly inclined to favouring them with books.Additionally, how could you offer a goy an apikorshishe sefer?Clear lifnei iver. This reason given was pure apologetics
There is a cute video from "dallars"(when the rebbe would give out dollars)where a meshumed waited in line to give the rebbe some apikorsishe book.The rebbe took it and said to him "I"m only taking it so you"ll have one less book to give to others" once the meshumed passes on the rebbe throws the book on the floor. Interesting contrast to the apologetics offered here
Jaim "How ridiculous can you get? " Who said this words, the Rebbe
are you saying that the Rebbe is kevyochel .... Rachmona Litzlan
"don't for one second think that the Raytz was thinking of "goyim" when he collected books" do you claim to have a hasoga in A Rebbe A tzadik Hadoir, How far is holy machsovas were grasping?
Btw, I can tell you bederch efsher a other reason for the Lien Material in the Library, just in case RAK of BMG needed to refresh his Pushkin( Making of a Godal)Course he shouldn't have Bitul torah and get easy access
Jaim, I know personally many Mechabrim that were using the Library for decades before this Hebrewbooks.org started, what a Ignorant Hedyot Kofetz Beroish
Jaim, "You ever heard "bimkom chilul Hashen ein cholkim kovod leruv"???" according to you nobody ever set foot in that Library then how is a Aveira Betzina a Chilul Hashem? he didn't put these books on Hebrewbooks, for the public
Jaim What exactly is the Issur? their were books put out against Missionaries, or against Yiddishisten, is their a way to answer without knowing what they are talking about.
Jaim, Did the Rambam write the Morah without knowing the kefira hashkofas of his generation, or the Ramban wrote the Sefer vikuach with out knowing the deep annals of Christianity.The Chabad Rebiem were the Lamplighters of Haskofa Tehora and fought all kind of kefira with their body and soul, in the belly of the beast of the Communist atheist regime, to the shores of the Ungefresene USA were our Jaim is having his dose of chicken cutlets with non concentrated orange juice, obviously there was a need for certain raw material
1) sifrei minus was rightfully banned for chassidim (and all simple jews) and is why The Malach was at odds with the establishment. (Chabad obviously claiming that The Malach asked Kashes) And is also why the Rasha"b slapped a bocher who learnt Moreh Nevoichim.
However 'intern tisch' Manhigei Chabad (And all potent gedolei Yisrael)knew much sifrei minus.
But there was no way they could announce it to the public!
A Rationalist such as yourself should know that There is a concept Of Docheh Bekash. When the Rebbe was confronted with the sifrei Minnus issue he said the only viable excuse possible that would satisfy the public and remain true to the general ban on the Masses. That it was intended for goyim...
Jaim, if ur a rational guy then stick by the rules.
And this my friend Jaims is one terrible aspect of The Blogosphere.
You learnt in a 7 blatt a zman yeshiva with an extra 15 inpirational minutes Musser seder in Ellul.
You also attended 3 shiurim from R Yoil and leafed thru the index from the Volpo's yechi propaganda. Spice it up with some leters from Rav Shach about Sukkah, Atzmus Umehus, and Rambam. And for dessert some kfar chabads and weird sichos from 51-52. And... PRESTO! Your a complete deah zugger.
Every Zov and his brother can question whoever and whatever they want and if the teritz doesn't gefel him becouse of yesterdays fight with his Lubab boss or his preloaded Haskafa then all that is sacred to 1000's of jews goes right down the tubes.
I never said 5 Teves was for all Jews. I said "I understand" it. i.e. I understand why Lubavitcher Chassidim celebrate.
What I do not understand is the repetitive nagging about "Sifrei Minnes". First of all, the anon hebrew writer explained it just fine: Full service Jewish libraries have all sorts of books for research purposes. I own some myself. (gasp) I am not able to appreciate the indignation. But that's not because I'm Chabad-sympathetic. It's because I have some MO tendencies.
the comment ( original stolen from shneur) was a very low cheapshot, it look like he had a bad hair day, to theorize on the Rebbes insecurity,VeShneur Shepikach Hoyou Ma Rouo Leshtis Zeh.??
Yehupitz, You did not read the excerpt from Shurem I posted earlier.In it The Rebbe said that the library was meant for everyone, even goyim and the proof was that there were "sifrei minnus", which were meant for goyim. So I asked, how can one give sifrei minnehs to goyim?? Chabad has never allowed any introspectcition ala Slifkin, and now we have sifrei apikorsus? Strange.
גם שיחות שלא הוגהו ע"י הרבי נרשמו ונבדקו ע"י חוזרים וכו' אבל שיחה זו מעולם לא נדפס בספרי ההתועדיות מפני שהרבי רק אמרו אז לצורך השעה שכולם ידעו לעצור המכירות וכו' ורק נרשם ע"י יחיד ולשנים ארוכות לא נדפס לאחרונה הדפיסו את רשימה זו
כך 1) השיחה אינו מוגהת, ולאידך בשיחה מוגה כותב הרבי במפורש שהטעם היא מפני "דע מה שתשיב" 2) השיחה הלא מוגהת לא נרשם ע"י חוזרים כי אם רשימה פרטית
כך אי אפשר לדייק בהמילים של השיחה שהובאה באתר שטורעם
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteDidon notzach vegam rotzach.feh
Gut yom tov,gut yom tov
ReplyDeleteDidon notzach!!!
Lubavitch won a war against its own existence. Had we lost Lubavitch may have ceased to exist.
גוט יום טוב!
ReplyDeleteדידן נצח!
I have to say that my appreciation of this day and its significance grew exponentially over the last few years as I got to read on various blogs what the supporters of the other side have to say on this subject.
Interesting note.
ReplyDeleteJudge Charles Sifton recently died aged 74.He was the judge presiding over the seforim court case.No mention in his obituary was made about this case so I guess it was no seen as very important in his more than 30 years on the Federal bench.
Chabad.org did make mention of his passing.
I personally felt horrible at the unabashed rejoicing of Lubavitch inc on their "victory" against a Jew and the last scion of the the Frierdiger Rebbe .Especially in a secular court .Accepting that they had a heter for a very public trial in a secular court it is still very troubling that instead of privately savoring the victory they have made this into a yom tov of "binfoil oyvecho".Many people I spoke to shared this sentiment.
The truth is that Lubavitch were rightfully fearful that they could lose the case, something that there was a good chance of happening in a Beis Din.
(the "heter" was unconvincingly written up at the behest of...by R'Ayzik Schvei.Not very convincing because he was not exactly unbiased, but let us not dwell on these minute details)
avremel
ReplyDeleteyou soooo miss the point of the rejoicing. It was not that BG was beaten, is that so hard to get?
also was the Stoliner Rebbe's heter to dance at his child's wedding during shivah ok in your eyes???
"also was the Stoliner Rebbe's heter to dance at his child's wedding during shivah ok in your eyes???"
ReplyDeleteI must have the wrong blog.Weren't you the guy complaining about comparing Rubashkins case to the Spinker, as in apples and oranges...?
So, you are just grasping for straws...vi kimt der Stoliner Chasunah arayn du?
Vi a katz in zauer milech
no, you have the correct blog
ReplyDeletethe comparison is simple; here we have a Rebbe in the middle of SHIVAH who dances publicly at his son's wedding, and publishes a pamphlet of heterim. Do you think those heterim were also shvach and biased?
Maybe.So?
ReplyDeleteso? a button.
ReplyDeleteAs an “outsider”, this is by far the least understood and most confusing “Yoma Dipagra” that Lubavich celebrates.
ReplyDeleteSmart response.
ReplyDeleteTypical answer to try and drag another rebbe in when there is absoloutely no shaychus."See that rebbe did something ,also"
Without knowing all the details the Stoliner had many hetterim written before he was born, including,if I'm not mistaken a teshuva by R'Moshe Feinstein being mattir.These cases have been extensively discussed pre Stolin and are noiteh to kuleh9genearl klal in aveilus).The reason you never heard of it is min hastam, because it's not mentioned in Sichos or Hayom Yom .
Whatever the case this has nothing to do with the seforim case.
Ess hot zech arois gelost a boydem
Btw, I trying to read the article in Mishpacha about R'Hershel Schachter.
ReplyDeleteWhat did u think?
avremel
ReplyDeletedid you read Reb I Shvei's Tshuveh? is it halachically incorrect?
I did not read the Teshuva.I squirmed at the thought that a teshuva from a chosid, the biggest nogea badovor would even be considerd a fig leaf by the "thinking Chassidus"
ReplyDeleteR'Ayzik, had he not gotten stuck in Chabad would have been migdolei haroshyeshivas and a leader in am yisroel.
Yeah, I think a beis din gave a heter, but really that was not the point.It's just disgusting to make a "yom tov" out of the downfall of another yid.We all know that actually, Barry had a very good case and could have easily worked out a monetary agreement with him.He needed the funds not the seforim, he was down on his luck and it was especially hard on someone from such a princely background
The major difference is that Stolin didn't use any of its own Rabbonim or Poskim to find a Heter.
ReplyDeleteum, tell me, who are their Rabbonim or Poskim.....
ReplyDeleteum, tell me, who are their Rabbonim or Poskim.....
ReplyDeleteYekkishe,
ReplyDeleteDon't fall for this Lubavitchers trap.
Stolins chasena has zero to do with this "yom tov" of binfol oyvecho.
He is just setting you up for a straw mans argument.
Let him deal with the ugliness of the facts .
avremel,
ReplyDeleteThe yom tov is about the Rebbe's victory, not Barry's loss.
Avremel,
ReplyDelete" Chabad.org did make mention of his passing. "
The great Schneur decried already the disgrace of Chabad, on the day of Siftons Histalkes.
Guys try not to argue with the bal hablog.He is never wrong or more accurately never admits to being wrong.
ReplyDeleteSmall example was when he screws up the name of a street in Yerusholayim.A street that every American yeshiva bochur has heard of and knows,yet this bal hablog who claims knowledge of all things going on in the frum kehillos is clueless about.No bigee.If he would admit to making a mistake.
Than the "other" post mocking a Jews Peyos.After getting over the head, he actually claims to be on "our side"!Again he never admits that mocking a yids peyos,ANY YIDS PEYOS IS A NO-NO!!
So anyway trying to explain to this fellow how tasteless and crass it is to make a big yom tov out of beating the eynikel is , is apparently a waste of time.
Lubavitch always get it right (even when they don't)
Avremel,
ReplyDelete"against a Jew and the last scion of the the Frierdiger Rebbe ."
The Miteler Rebbe was celebrating a Chag Hageula on a victory for a court case he had with his Nephew.. so don't pity the Beis Horav, you would anyway hate if he would be Rebbe Material,
Avremel,
ReplyDelete"unconvincingly written up at the behest of...by R'Ayzik Schvei.Not very convincing because he was not exactly unbiased"
FYI, they asked Reb Fishelle and Reb Menashe Klien,
they should of asked, Belsky and Reb Shlomo Miller, the truly non biased against Chabad people,what a idiot you are.
"He needed the funds not the seforim, he was down on his luck and it was especially hard on someone from such a princely background"
ReplyDeleteAVREMEL,
Seems to me that you would justify a robbery for those who are 'down on their luck'. What is the connection. He could have been starving and homeless and it would still no justify his gneivas.
Anyhow, im sure hes paying for it l'maalo.
Never, ever mess with a Rebbe a true godol hador.
"they should of asked, Belsky and Reb Shlomo Miller, the truly non biased against Chabad people,what a idiot you are."
ReplyDeleteTell me, chaver, even basic English they did not teach you, wherever it is that you went to school?
Actually, if you are the same nasty anonymous , you are a Sakmoiry turned Lubavitcher, so I"ll give you a pass on this
And, btw, haguen hagudel, the idea of asking someone biased is what I pointed out.R'Aizik was a Lubavitcher, to ask him to write a teshuva is wrong.Get it? Nothing to with the actual psak.
Hirshel
Grow up and stop censoring my comments,ok? Did not write anything wrong there
I know I am also a nogeia b'davar since I like Chabad, but I understand Hey Teves.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of the Rebbe as "public entity", belonging to his Chassidim, vs. Rebbe as private man trying to recoop some private belongings by hook and crook, lying to the government and correspondents in order to achieve that end.
The court victory was seen as a vindication in the way Chassidim perceive their relationship to their rebbe. As Sifton's ruling made clear, the US Law mechanism of Public-Trust was the Civil-Law equivalent of Rn Chaya Mushka's claim. I never saw this as being about BG losing.
I never understood the it-was-only-about-money angle. I have read that the Rashag was quite wealthy.
Interesting tidbit from the NYT: R'Lieberman "also confessed to burning some papers pertinent to the case,"!!!
Didn't he and his wife work, plus he had no children,
ReplyDeletehis father had alot of money,just in case he needed a new Sub Zero Refrigerator or for a pair of Shimusha Raba Tefilin.
This is a commonsense issue that his grand father wanted a Libray for Chabad, thousands of people are enjoying now thru Hebrewbooks.org but when it gets to Chabad people lose their balance.The Gerer Rebbe spent lately alot of Money to get back his grandfathers Library.
"He needed the funds not the seforim, he was down on his luck and it was especially hard on someone from such a princely background" "
ReplyDeleteThe point I was making was that Barry would have agreed to be paid for his part of the yerusha.He had no problem giving back the seforim.
And.....Since we never had a din toiroh , he may have had a real Toiredigeh tayna.So who knows maybe this library of Lubavitch is actually, not theirs...
avremel
ReplyDeleteno comment of yours was censored or rejected. You have my word on that. stop accusing me.
Avremel,
ReplyDelete"even basic English they did not teach you"
proud Oholie Torahnik with no secular studies, the more Griezen the better, you have a bechira not to answer
"I never understood the it-was-only-about-money angle. I have read that the Rashag was quite wealthy."
ReplyDeleteBarry apparently was not wealthy and I"m not sure where you know what Rashag had.
Barry sold the seforim, so it seems that it was about money.
Btw,I applaud you about your honesty in admitting that you are biased.It's clear you are not a full fledged Lubavitcher because they never admit to being "biased" they are always "objectively" right.
Avremel,
ReplyDeleteReb Eizik was not a Dayan in this case , he just wrote a Teshuva, you think the Chasam Sofer didn't pasken for Pressburgh when they had a monetary problem, what a idiotic argument.
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteI wrote one about your not admitting to making mistakes.What happened to it?
"Reb Eizik was not a Dayan in this case"
ReplyDeleteDid I say he was?
I said requesting a teshuva to go to erko'os from a chosid who knows what his rebbe wants is wrong.Difficult to understand? And please don't slander the Chasam Sofer sitting bedin where he was a noge'ah.
Avremel,
ReplyDelete"he may have had a real Toiredigeh tayna"
but you agree that he had a argument for one half only, since his aunt his also a Yoresh,
Avremel
ReplyDelete"a chosid who knows what his rebbe wants is wrong"
Did you know Reb Eizik personally that he would be a chosid of a Rebbe that does a Sin against toras moshe? when did he lose his cheskas kashrus,
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteHappy to hear you are not a Satmar grad.The only thing worse than going to Oholei Torah would be going to Satmar.It can't help that this "frum" group is named after a goyishe saint
"but you agree that he had a argument for one half only, since his aunt his also a Yoresh,"
ReplyDeleteYes
Hirshel,
ReplyDeleteI thought you wouldn't open this can of worms,all the haters are coming out of the woodworks on that day,
I guess you enjoy them
Avremel writes:"Since we never had a din toiroh , he may have had a real Toiredigeh tayna"
ReplyDeletewhy do you show off your ignorance?You obviously have no clue about hilchot yerushoh. By Torah-law, the 2 daughters would have inherited the private belongings of the previous Rebbe. The same Torah-law also states that their husbands have full rights and benefits of what their wives inherit (as well as other possessions). NOTHING, nada, absolutely zero, for wife (except full support) and grandchildren. When the wife dies - husband inherits everything. This leaves the Rebbe and his brother-in-law in charge, and his b-i-l sided fully with the Rebbe, thus leaving everything to Rebbe [if he - as you like to see it] had looked at it as private possessions.
Thus in halachah the grandson had no claim whatsoever.
its sew a button and they should at least print a new sefer every year if they understood what it was about
ReplyDelete"you soooo miss the point of the rejoicing. It was not that BG was beaten, is that so hard to get?"
ReplyDeleteWith that logic klal yisrael would've had a good answer for מעשה ידי טובעים בים ואתם אומרים שירה
Beaten? Please. He had to return books he took. Hardly comparable to drowning in a sea.
ReplyDeleteAnd anon1's halachic point is solid.
"Beaten? Please. He had to return books he took. Hardly comparable to drowning in a sea"
ReplyDeleteחשוב כמת
איך מיין אז מ'קען אפטייטשען גאנץ חב"ד פון "דידן נצח"
ReplyDeleteס'ליקט אין דעם די גאנצע דמיון
וד"ל
Avremel, it's time to quiet down and learn the story well, who the people involved were, what they did with their lives before the case happened, whom they consulted with, what was being done with the seforim before the issue went to court, and what the ruling of the judge was, before you mention any more facts about a story you clearly know very little about.
ReplyDeleteA thought. There is something very strange about the whole celebration. In no other Chassidus or group of like-minded Jews is there a precedent of such a public celebration about a victory that concerns only them. There are many groups that have cause to celebrate, and yet we don't hear it or read about it. Any celebrating (not getting involved whether the celebration is warranted) is done privately and in a very toned down way, as befits the nation of Vehatzneah Leches Im Elokecha. Get your vodka out of my face.
ReplyDeleteMr. Truth, I feel your pain, really I do.
ReplyDeleteNow you just sound stupid. You know, sometimes you write such sensible things, and other times you just sound like another whiny lubab. You feel my pain? Which pain might that be? Write tzum zach, not like a loser.
ReplyDeleteit is not uncommon for the self proclaimed seekers of truth to be the furthest away from the truth that is being sought, ala the UN...
ReplyDelete"And anon1's halachic point is solid."
ReplyDeleteSo solid that Chabad were scared to go to a din torah.
Yup.
Can we at least be maskim that Rama"sh was the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe, or are we going to rehash that machlokes too?
ReplyDeleteVoice of truth,
ReplyDelete"group of like-minded Jews is there a precedent of such a public celebration about a victory that concerns only them"
Every old kehila in Yiddishen Folk had days that they celebrated as a Purim, in the famous 2 teshuvahs of the Chasam Sofer he wants to make them as a Semi Deoiraisa, so put your true foot in your true mouth before you utter the truth.
BTW, did you ever hear of a Kehila as Satmar? they are celebrating the 21st of Kislev for the Hatzola of Rabbi Joel with the help of the Zionists... they celebrated it for the last 40 to 50 years in every corner that a Satmar chosid ever put his foot down,eventough that outside of Reb Yoel we left their behind in the gas chambers 6 million Jews.
לאונומיס
ReplyDeleteאיזה תשובה גאונית
הדין שהבנות שירשו אסור למכור בלי רשות הבעלים היא הלכה ברורה.
מה יש לך לענות?
אם הוא הי' ניגש לדין תורה הי' מפסיד
מפני שאסור לו או לאמו לקחת בלי רשות בעלה שהתנגדה בגלוי למכירת הספרים
יש לך לענות, כן או לא?
מה גם שאת הסיפור אינך מכיר,
A friend of mine asked me, how come it their is no outcry, that Zalmen Lieb stole from his brother the Yerusha,with no din torah or court even? or Abish Horowitz of Spinka,stole from all his brothers,etc... what is this heart bleeding crocodile tears every year on 5th of teveth on a semi orthodox person that is dead with no kids ?
ReplyDeleteis it maybe because its the Rebbe? and certain people love to hate him???? is their some answers for the $64000 question ?
Voice of Truth
ReplyDelete". Any celebrating is done privately and in a very toned down way "
I don't think if you celebrate for a Nes from Hashem and you give him blessings it should be done in the darkness of the Night, is Halel being said in your Shul in the same quiet tone as the tefilas hoamida?
התשובה שהבאתי לעיל הי' תשובת הרב הרשקוביץ מצאנז מיד בתחילת הסיפור
ReplyDeleteהרבי שלח את הרב משה בוגמילסקי לשאול את דעתו של רב לא חב"די בענין
הרב הרשקוביץ ענה, שאת פרטי הדברים שכתב הרבי ריי"צ שזה שייך לציבור אין הוא יודע והוא צריך לקראות הדברים ומה גם שלא שמע הצד כשכנגד
אבל גם בלי לשמוע הצד שכנגד
ברור שאין לו שום רשות למכור הספרים- אפילו לשיטתו שזה ירושה
מפני שהרבי וגם גיסו הרש"ג היו בחיים חיותם בעלמא דין
ושניהם התנגדו למכירה כך ברור כשמש שאסור לו למכור את זה
ובכל דין תורה הי' מפסיד
גם בלי להכנס למה שכתב הרבי ריי"צ שזה נכס של אגודת חסיד חב"ד
" berl, crown heights said...
ReplyDeleteavremel,
The yom tov is about the Rebbe's victory, not Barry's loss."
Well done, You just undermined the whole phoney tayno that won the court case.
גם בענין ההליכה לבית משפט שאל הרבי את דעתו של הרב ישראל יצחק פיקארסקי שהי'חסיד סוכוטשוב תלמיד ישיבת חכמי לובלין וראש ישיבת 770
ReplyDeleteבתחילה הי' הרב שהרבי הי' שואל את שאלותיו בהלכה הי' החסיד הרב שמואל לעוויטין, מלפנים רב העיר ראקשיק
לאחר פטירתו באלול תשל"ד שאל הרבי את אב"ד קראון הייטס הרב זלמן שמעון דבארקין לאחר פטירתו באדר תשמ"ה שאל הרבי את שאלותיו את הרב פיקארסקי גם בנידון זה לפני שנגשו לבית משפט הלכו אליו ושטחו לפניו כל פרטי הסיפור ותשובתו הי' שלא רק שמותר אלא מוכרחץ
Anon,
ReplyDeleteyou will never satisfy the haters,
Reb Fishele is a chasidisher yid with non Nemonas
Rav Pikarsky is on the Rebbes Payroll (eventough technically he was on the payroll of the Reshag,Horav Hatzadik Reb Barry's father)with no Nemonas.
the Rebbe had one option left to ask Horav Nati Grossman of the Yesed, the one only non biased person on earth.
"Well done, You just undermined the whole phoney tayno that won the court case."
ReplyDeletecome again?
btw, Rabbi Bogomilsky's book on the eventa of 5 Teves is excellent.
ReplyDeleteTzig, if Rabbi Bogomilsky would give you permission to post it, it would be great. (I am willing to scan it).
I obviously have more than a little to say about Heh Teves, and most of it was said on other places. I see no sense in re hashing the subject, let all the 6 principles rest in peace. There are no yorshim on either side vechuli vechuli. Lets move on.
ReplyDeleteI will add that The Rashag headed ULY for over 50 years and left a estate of about 1 million, can any other menahel/ fund raiser of such a mosad say the same. Imagine if he were from BP he would have left over 8 million...
I am certain that 1 day in the future both sides case will be seen by both sides in a more objective manner. Meanwhile people should make use of the library at 770 and carry out th epurpose of the victory.
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteSo much for making fun of stolin
Stolin won a court against his enemies in new york and didn't make a yom tov
He won a din torah against pinsk and didn't make a hey teves
Even zalman lieb when he won a court case against aron didn't make a yom tov
This yom tov story needs more clarification
Yochi
ReplyDeleteI challenge you to find where I 'made fun' of Stolin
to compare the court cases of Stolin, I assume you mean with the Alte Karliner, to what happened in the period prior to 5 Teves is ridiculous. I CANNOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH!!!
The $ that Rashag left behind wasn't from the money he raised for the Yeshivah. He made his money over the years as a legitimate investor; and not by fleecing the Yeshivah with outrageous fund-raising commission rates (like other have). He was an extraordinary fundraiser totally devoted to the institution he so capably administrated.
ReplyDeleteHis role in the 'didan notzach' saga was extraordinary as well.
Btw, if my memory serves me correctly, after Rashag's petiroh, the Rebbe said something to the effect of Rashag still being the Yeshivah's "מנהל פועל".
Why did the good grandson have to sneak the seforim out if the law was on his side?
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, Here is what Rabbi M. Bogomilsky writes re: going to court:
"Rabbi Yehudah Krinsky consulted with Poskei Halachah, who ruled that, since Barry was selling the books, it was permissible Halachically to go to the Federal Court to get a restraining order, in order to prevent any monetary losses until a Din Torah could be arranged. [He refers to Igros Moshe Ch"M vol. 2 Siman 11 - I did not look it up.]
"Rabbi Krinsky and Mr. Nathan Lewin went to the Brooklyn Federal Court to seek a restraining order. At that time, Mr. Lewin told the court, "We are here because the defendant is actually selling the books. If the judge would give an order that the books be placed in a safe location and he would be prevented from selling them, we are prepared to carry on the rest of the court case before a rabbinic court".
"Mr. Hellerstein, Barry's lawyer, reacted, "Oh, no, your honor. The case is now in court, and we would like the court to decide who owns the entire library - we claim that it all belongs to the family, not the community." Ad kan.
Anyone who knows the events of that period is aware how much physical and emotional pain the Rebbe suffered on account if this whole story. When the Rebbe won, and his pain was alleviated, Chassidim rejoiced because they love the Rebbe. In general, there's an easy barometer to use to understand why Chabad dislike certain people: someone who causes the Rebbe agmas nefesh is disliked, and someone who cause the Rebbe nachas is admired. I don't think there is a yotzei min haklal.
"to compare the court cases of Stolin, I assume you mean with the Alte Karliner, to what happened in the period prior to 5 Teves is ridiculous. I CANNOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH!!!"
ReplyDeleteI"m getting sick of you, you are such a fool! So blinded by the kool-aid you have been given.
Hey teyves is a busha to Chjabad.
querido Jaim
ReplyDeletesi tenes algo casi inteligente a agragar, entonces siga!
pero, no dejiste nada
The Lubavitch make it sound like an unbelievable miracle happened on Hey Teves.Nothing of the sort actually.
ReplyDeleteA private monetary dispute between a feuding Jewish family went to a secular court and one side won.The side that had the resources and money, mind you.
Nothing changed for the Jewish people.Nothing.What would have happened is that some musty seforim, rarely or never used would have changed hands.
Big deal!
For this a shrill hater like Hirshel screams his head off,Berl CH becomes apocalyptic and Yehupitz shows how much he wants to be accepted by the Lubavitch crowd even at the cost of losing any remaining credibility.
Sad.
what's sad is that know-nothings like Jaim think they know what they're talking about...
ReplyDeleteYou talking to me...while looking at the mirror
ReplyDeleteהרבי הביא ראיה לזה מהעובדה שבספריה היו לא רק ספרי חסידות, אלא גם ספרים סתם ואפי' ספרי אפיקורסות, שהסיבה היחידה לזה היא מפני שהספריה שייכת לאגודת חסידי חב"ד, ולכן טיפחו את הספריה ושמו בה גם ספרים כאלו, כדי שהיא תהיה אור לא רק לחסידים או ליהודים אלא אפי' לגויים.
ReplyDelete"ולכן נמצאים בספרי' של הרבי, לא רק ספרי חב"ד אע"פ שכל ענינו של הרבי היה חסידות, אלא גם ספרים חסידיים אחרים וגם ספרי נגלה, ויותר מזה גם ספרים לא תורניים, אלא "וועלטישע" ספרים (סתמיים), עד גם ספרי אפיקורסות, וזהו מכיון שכאמור הרבי רצה שהספריה שלו תהיה פתוחה בשביל כולם, לא רק בשביל חסידי חב"ד, או לחסידים ויהודים בכלל, אלא גם בשביל לא יהודים. לכן הוא השתדל לאסוף לספריה שלו כל מיני ספרים, לא רק ספרים יהודיים, אלא גם ספרים אחרים.
הטעם בפשטות מדוע כ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר רצה שהספריה תהיה פתוחה לכולם ולכן הוא החזיק שם גם ספרי גויים וספרי אפיקורסות, כיון שליובאוויטש היא אור לגוים!
In an unbelievable example of what the challenge of the library did to the people running Chabad, they were prepared to admit that the Rayatz collected even "sifrei apikorsus" so that "goyim" could also visit the library.
ReplyDeleteI mean how strange is this??
I wonder what the apologists are going to say now?
ReplyDeleteThe Hebrew was taken from Shturem.net and are the words of the rebbe.
Amazing.
Yehupitz,any thing to explain?
extra hiskashres points
IN Yiddish there is a saying "Baym Ganef brent dos hittel".
ReplyDeleteBarry Gourary had no kitrug on the nesius neither did Channa Gourary, Although they both thought someone else was more "raui" to the job ,but by 1986 they had made peace with reality , which in the human sense was sad for all the remaining 6 members of the Royal family.
Only in the mind of someone who perhaps in the deepest recesses of his heart and mind felt that he really was not the right person for the position did this public need for approval suddenly arise. Perhaps that person knew what the Rayaatz stated in his will or felt that in fact the sole eynikel was closer to the Rayaatz than he was while in West Europe.
The Rebbe knew Bere wanted money and that nesius was not the issue, but to blur the issues he raised the issueof a kitrug on his nesius .
And pray tell me did a Besdin rule on the legitimacy of the Nesius, no it was an "orel" who did according to Chukei Akum. How is this of any importance for a heimishe Yid. Perhaps Rabbi Schick could get an American or British judge to rule that he is the Admor of Bratzlav and the heir of Rav Nachman , i am sure that reb Michoel Dorfman Z"L would have chapped a hispaylus from such a ruling and immediately called Reb Schick and coronated him as the new rav Nachman !!!
I am also interested what the taitsch is of the whole parsha of "asher Nasi yechte"??? Is this refering to a hedyot or a gadol be Israel ?
Finally to remove materials one feels is his according to rules of yerushah is not an improper act, it may be disputable but not improper, To use the logic of Lubavitch if it was so clearly improper why did it take the gaon Judge Sifton almost a year to rule on something our correspondent rules clearly improper ?
Friends, for all the years until 1986 the Chabad communtiy thought of these books as the proerty of the Schneersohn family that had not been divided. So i was told in the 1970's by every Lubavitcher I talked to (of course in those days these people were mostly geza).
Rebbetzin Nechama Dina wrote a will indicating clearly that thats what she believed. the libraian who built the collection the RACHAL thought so, the Rashag who never left his shvers side thought so too.
Only 1 person thought differently. I recall when the case first started a zaken Anash told me "ich mish zich nit" and this was a man dedicated to the 7th rebbe. So things were not that clear.
anonymous
ReplyDeletethe only ganef here was the one who went when nobody saw and stuffed shopping bags full of antique seforim
עפרא לפומיך
I notice you will not touch the claim that the library even had "sifrei apikorsus" so that gentiles could enjoy "Lubavitch ohr lagoyim".
ReplyDeleteNever seen such twisted stuff
Reading the Lubavitch "account" of this law suit is an eye opener into understanding latter day Chabad.A must read.The best way is to read Lubavitcher sources
ReplyDeleteclaim? it's no claim.
ReplyDeleteIMHO, 5 Teves was the beginning of the takeover of Lubavitch by the PR machine. The Rebbe's death, the unravelling of Chabad, the paralysis of modern Israel and the tsunami of nihilism, apathy and despair tell us we haven't found the way of golus yet.
ReplyDeleteYochonon,
ReplyDelete" Stolin won a court against his enemies in new york and didn't make a yom tov "
I don't think that they ever won, the Pinsker and the Lelover are big Rebbes, and carrying on strong the Karliner Derech
"claim? it's no claim."
ReplyDeleteNot quite sure what you mean.
In any case the rebbe himself said that there were sifrei apikorsus in the library.Aren't you astounded?
Guess you are not.You are automatic brainless pilot anyway.
stop with your fake "astounded" baloney.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it "fake"?
ReplyDeleteThe rebbe to win the case was prepared to accuse his shver of collecting apikorsus!
What don't you get , shefaleh?
*You are on automatic brainless pilot anyway.
ReplyDelete*correction.
accuse? go away, you ignoramus.
ReplyDelete"accuse? go away, you ignoramus."
ReplyDeleteThat is all you can say?
Don't be pathetic
yes, that's all. you're clueless. You think this is your wife going to be certified for food stamps. This wasn't just talk.
ReplyDeletemoron.
Keep up smoke screen.
ReplyDeleteAgain the rebbe made a claim that the Rayatz collected sifrei apikorsus.
Got anything to answer?
I've never seen such a twisted notion that it was so "gentiles would visit".Are you allowed to give gentiles "sifrei apikorsus"?
Astounding.
again, the only one in the dark here is you. you know nothing. It's not a "claim."
ReplyDeletenow go away.
You know it's no fair of me putting you on the spot without all your handlers to help bail you out.
ReplyDeleteNext time they should prepare you more thoroughly.
Btw,I choose to be nice by calling it a "claim".I don't think its bakovodig to actually accept it as true
listen, moron, do you know all the contents of the library?
ReplyDelete"listen, moron, do you know all the contents of the library?"
ReplyDeleteWhat is the point?
Go ahead with your point.I don't know all the contents of the library.
ReplyDelete"WHAT IS THE POINT???" ARE YOU DAFT???
ReplyDeleteyou're claiming that the Rebbe lied (afrah LePumaych) when he said that the FR had sifrei apikorsus in the Library, right? do you know that NOT to be the fact?!
do you havea list of all books committed to memory, perhaps?
Shafaleh,
ReplyDeleteI see I have to be careful with you.
Hungarians are not known for their sense of humour or ability to pick up nuance.
So...
I was going easy on him, so I said "claimed" of course I thought it was true AND THAT WAS THE POINT!!
That Lubavitch were prepared to admit that in this library were "sifrei minnus"! Hello?!!.Sifrei minnus in a library belonging to a Chabad rebbe?? You don't see something "interesant" (and please don't be so dense as not to pick up the nuance of "interesant")
Kalmen
ReplyDeleteI am unfortunately not too bright, can you rephrase your statement in laymans english
Anon 4;42
ReplyDelete"Barry Gourary had no kitrug on the nesius neither did Channa Gourary"
are you realy sure that they had no problem with the Rebbes Nesius? their are a lot of documents circulating in Chabad that show the facts to be differently, from your writing I see that the facts doesnt matter much since your mind is made up already.
Anon 4;42
ReplyDelete" in the deepest recesses of his heart and mind felt that he really was not the right person for the position "
Were you maybe the Rebbes shrink? did he ever come to lay on the couch of your office? or did your friend the shrink(since it seems you belong to that community) release the Rebbes diagnosis. I can help you on bit maybe, to be a little more factual, not only hotair, the Rebbe answered all his life Azkir Al hatzion, and realy took all the Panim to the Shver.
Anon 4;42
ReplyDelete"did a Besdin rule on the legitimacy of the Nesius, no it was an "orel" who did according to Chukei Akum"
Nesius of a rebbe is certified according to halacha by one simple thing, where the majority of chasidim feel they have to go(famous statement of the Divrei Chaim)there was no need to get legitimacy by no beis din, especially after the Reshag had full bitul for the Rebbe, so what the hell are you talking..
Anon4;42
ReplyDelete"almost a year to rule on something our correspondent rules clearly improper ? "
as a new yorker I can vouch you that a year in court is very fast even for a parking ticket.
Jaim. Sifrei Minus is basic knowledge needed for Da MaShetushiv. All our greats were knowledgable in Sifrei Minus.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the problem for a library to have Sifrei Minus?
Jaim
ReplyDeleteA Library isn't a Beis Yaakov school with Blacked-out Texts.
Its a L I B R A R Y that belongs to Lubavich
This 'Jaim' really is daft and you're wasting your time with him.
ReplyDeleteThe library has all sorts of books, science , math , astrology, medicine from all sorts of people who sent in their publications over the years.
Otzar hachochma has hundreds of books that are not for bnei teyre, but for research purposes.
I dont hear this little pesky chihuahua barking elsewhere, but when it comes to Lubavitch he begins to show his idiodicy. He should start a one man campaign with a billboard and picket signs against them.
He is such an idiot he thinks he chapped a nail here to hang something on. Only himself...only himself.
Jaim
ReplyDeleteLike C'mon. Even Rav Shach Had Sifrei Minus (Likutei Sichos, Steinzaltz, and Maimon) at home in order to know what to attack...
LW
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe claimed the sifrei minnus were for goyim. See what was copied earlier from Shturem.Nothing strange about that?
"All our greats were knowledgable in Sifrei Minus."
That was certainly not derech hachasidus.In fact even Moreh Nevuchim was out of bounds.
Look, this really touches on earlier history with the Malochim, if you've heard of them.R'Avrohom Levin aka Der Malech had a fall out with RASH"B over this, he was a tutor for Rayztz
ית סרחני אנא מדכר יומא דֵין
ReplyDeleteHey Teves has become a day of personal teshuvoh for me. For what? For having some compassion for Barry during those dark days. I thought, "so sad", "der einikel", bla, bla, bla... I have simply failed to realize that Barry was a soineh who cared not at all for the mission of the Royal Family – to serve the Jewish Nation – and hence deserved ZERO allegiance from chasidei Chabad. I am indebted to Schneur for helping me come to this realization now.
I will say nothing about the retarded comment on the length of the legal process as proof of propriety of Barry's gezeloh.
What chasidim thought in the 1970's about the library means quite close to absolute zero. The FR letters where not yet published, hence no one has seen his 1940 letters to US trying to save the library. Beside that, those people had no idea what the Rebbe's opinion on the subject was. Which is really the only thing that matters anyways...
Anyone who said, "ich mish zach nit" was a nifrod and a menuvol.
Our good friend Jaims is no where to be found. Er hut zich oisgeret zein farveitugte hartz in gegangen shluffen.
ReplyDeletePeace. Peace unto you.
מגוחך לראות אנשים שאין להם טיפת הבנה בענין ואין להם שום שייכות למדובר חוץ משנאתם לחב"ד שינקו בחלב אימם
ReplyDeleteמוצאים כמה מילים ומביישים את עצמם ברבים
וכי מאסר הרבי האמצעי שנגרם ע"י שמחה קאסין שרצה להתנקם בהרבי האמצעי מפני שלא עשה שידוך עם משפחתו לא הי' קטרוג על נשיאות אדמו"ר האמצעי
וכי אתה חושב ששמחה קאסין המלשין רצה להיות אדמו"ר,
וכי העובדא שכשאדמו"ר האמצעי אמר חסידות לפני פטירתו וכובע נפל עליו והפסיק שראה בזה קטרוג על גילוי החסידות, האם החסיד שהכובע שלו נפל רצה להפסיק אמירת החסידות
אלא נשיאי חב"ד חושבים מיד על כל העלם והסתר על גילוי החסידות כהוראה שיש למעלה קטרוג
האם מישהו חושב כמו שעלה במוחכם הטיפשי שבארי רוצה (דוקא כן רצה ולכך הי' מרוגז עם ליובאוויטש) ויכול להיות אדמו"ר
אלא הכל הוא הוראה על למעלה
אבל אתם שהענין היחיד שאתם מגיעים לכאן היא רק לנגח ולהראות השנאה הארסית שינקתם בחלב איממכם,
ואין לכם שום הבנה בנושא
תעשו טובה לעצמכם ואל תכניסו האף שלכם
Tzig. The long comment by Annonymous dibbur hamaschil Bayn ganev brennt dos hittel is plagerized word for word from coments I wrote several years ago on a different blog .Please I am not interested in rehashing this stuff. Whoever used these comments never asked my permission. They may be in the public domain, but bifnei am veda I declare I had nothing to do with this posting ! As I wrote I do wish to invovle myself in this case which is now history.
ReplyDeleteShortly after Hey Teves, a prominent Chabad Rabbi from England wished the Rebetzein "Gut Yom tov" , She replied in Yiddish "by unz es iz nit kein yom tov" by us (the family) it's not a yom tov.
ReplyDeleteSo please Hershel its not so black and white.
Another point
Aguch at the time followed the advice of their attorney's. The arguments used in court regarding the rebbe belonging to the chassidim and the Seforim being owned by Aguch, a public entity, seems to be more of a legal argument then a fact.
It was argued in court that the Farbraingens were the public meeting needed for a public Corporation.
An argument could be made that if the above mentioned argument was a true argument and not just a legal loophole and all Chasidim are members of Aguch then the Rebbe had no right (or legal power) in 91 to restructure Aguch as a private corporation. it should have been done by a public farbraingen.
Schneur said. Ich mish zich mer nisht
ReplyDeleteare you an x nifrod or an x menuvel
you helped Barry! the Reyatz will be machzik toive for helping his einikel,don't be a mischaret on a mitsvah
If it was so very obvious that the library belonged to the chassidim, how come one (two?) of the daughters of the Friedeker Rebbe and his chief librarian weren't aware of that?
ReplyDeleteShouldn't that make anyone pause for a moment?
Also, concerning the library belonging to all chassidim... Really? When is the last time anyone stepped into that library. Most chassidim have no idea where it is (specifically, as opposed to knowing it's somewhere in the building next to 770) and have never been inside.
ReplyDeleteFinally, why did the Rebbe have to make it a public fight? Why did he have to have all Lubavitch hate his sister-in-law and nephew? Even if he was totally convinced that he was right, couldn't he have solved it privately? Couldn't he have told chassidim it's none of your business; it's a private matter?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous. Are you saying that talking about this matter is going to change anything. Perhaps we can repeal Social Security, maybe by talking about it, we can make the US part of England again ?
ReplyDeleteWhat happened , happened my views are clear and wee made public many times , but whats the maayle of rehashing things.
It would be different if there were de facto yorshim from the Gourary side , but there are not
As I wrote time and circumstances will change the way this matter is viewed even by Chabad community.
ליהודה
ReplyDeleteראשית כל תשובתי אליך היא רק עם אתה חפץ לדעת האמת
אך אם לא תעשה טובה דלג על הדברים
1) העובדא שהספרי' היא נכס של "אגודת חסידי חב"ד" הי' ברור מכתבי הרבי ריי"צ והמודעות וכו' של הספרי' במשך השנים
זה שהבת והספרן לא (רצו) לדעת,
היא בגלל רצונם שזה יהי' פרטי
2)הרבי כן ניסה לטפל בבעי' בפרטיות , הרבי באמצעות גיסו הרש"ג אביו של בערי ניסה לדבר על ליבו להחזיר הספרים, והוא סירב.
באותו זמן כבר מכר הרבה ספרים, ורצה למכור עוד
לא הי' ברירה כי אם לעצור את זה ע"י הכרזת הסיפור בפומבי,
שכולם שקנו או רצו לקנות שידעו שזה גניבה,
והי' מוכרח ללכת לבית משפט שהם יקחו הספרים מביתו בטרם הוא ימכור עוד ספרים.
3) העובדא שכל החסידים אין להם גישה חפשית לספרי' אינו משנה העובדא שזה נכס החסידים.
רק מכיון שזה נועד ל"חוקרים" כל אחד שחוקר ענין מלא טופס ויכול לראות הספרים שרוצה בספרי'.
חוץ מזה שישנו תערוכות לעיתים קרובות בו מייצגים ענינים מהספרי'
העובדא שכל החסידים אין להם גישה חפשית לספרי' אינו משנה העובדא שזה נכס החסידים.
ReplyDeleteרק מכיון שזה נועד ל"חוקרים" כל אחד שחוקר ענין מלא טופס ויכול לראות הספרים שרוצה בספרי'.
חוץ מזה שישנו תערוכות לעיתים קרובות בו מייצגים ענינים מהספרי===
=========================================
Unbelievable apologetics!
Absolute nonsense!
טוב אני רואה שיש לך תשובות ולא שאלות
ReplyDeleteהעובדא שהרבי ריי"צ הקים ספרי' לצורך חקירות לא מעניין אותך
אל תבלבל אותו עם עובדות
זיי מיר געזונט
How come no Lubavitchers are answering my questions??
ReplyDeleteI asked what are "sifrei minnus" doing in a Orthodox Jewish library??
What kid of an answer is the claim that it's for gentiles??Are you allowed to give a gentile "sifrei minnus"???Is it not "lifnei iver"
It would be interesting to know the last time any gentile asked for these "sifrei apikorsus".Probably never and I"m sure no yid ever did either.Besides for this library not being exactly an "open library" contrary to the Lubavitch claim that it"s "owned" by the chasidim.
So it seems that somebody had a hobby collecting "books" any books, seforim, sifrei minim, whatever just like a stamp collection.Somehow Orthodox Jews are supposed to believe that winning over this library in court is a big victory for all Jews.Even a guy like Yehupitz thinks so.
Sorry, most Jews will not allow this wool to be passed over their eyes!
btw
ReplyDeleteלא הבנתי מה אתה מכחיש
1) הספרי' היא ספרי' ציבורית
זו עובדא שהודגש הרבה פעמים במשך השנים
למשל ב1949 קיבלה הספרי' ספרים מחברה בשם "jewish cultural reconstruction inc." שהי' מיועד רק לספריות ציבוריות והודגש בטופס שהספרי' חתם שאסור למכור הספרים
ומכיון שהספרי' מיועדת לחוקרים לכך הספרי' היתה זכאי לקבל הספרים.
אתה מכחיש את זה???
2) הספרי' היא נכס חסידי חב"ד
כך הבהיר הרבי ריי"צ במכתבו לד"ר מרקס בו כתב במפורש "הספרי' היא נכס אגודת חסידי חב"ד" דהיינו חסידי חב"ד
ועוד הרבה ראיות מודעות שפרסם הרבי ריי"צ בחוברות שונות
ואיזה קופה שילם לכל ההוצאות
זה עובדא
אתה מכחיש את זה???
אבל כבר כתבתי אתה מגיע עם תשובות לא שאלות
Yehuda Motek,
ReplyDeleteTaaneh li lama yesh etselchem besireiyeh "siffrei minnes"
Yehuda,
ReplyDeleteEini makchis veiny modeh lmee balus al hasifriyah.Eyny yodea.Zeh shpusak shoifet Akim lo oimer li kleem.
השואל שאינו מבקש תשובות
ReplyDeleteכבר ענו שזה בשביל מחקר
הספרי' מיועדת לחוקרים.
אך כמובן אתה לא מבקש תשובות
שוב אתה חוזר על הקביעה הטיפשית מכיון שאין הספרי' פתוחה לכל ילד לכן אין היא יכולה להיות נכס הציבור?
אין שום הגיון בדברך
אי אפשר לתנועה שיהי' לו נכס
שמיועד לענין מסוים ולא לקהל הרחב??
Yehuda
ReplyDeleteOid hapa'am oimar luch she'eni dan v'einy yodea lmi ha'baylus.Veha'amen li oid shei zeh nogea lkima'at af echad.
Aval, ani roitseh ludaas lama rebbe oisef sifrei minnes?Ukvar heveisy fin shturem.net az haRabi hot gezugt az zeh bishvil goyim, hasifrei minnes, biglal she'hsifriyah hee avur kilom.Ve'al zeh ani shoi'el ma lesifrei minnes bebet rebbi???I'mah yesh teritz az zeh legoyim, ha'im mitter lehachshil goyim im sifrei minnes??
Koil haparsheh hazee zeh nir'eh mayse tipshes gudol mizad lubavitch la'asos yomtov, vel'asos mi hasiruyah kima'at getshkeh.Kayadiah, shemumoim harbe nishpach, beh soif 1939 lehatzil hasifriyah mePoilen, ve kamivom shezah buh al cheshbon hatzula nafshois yisruel, so bichlal einee mechabed ess hasifriyah hazois, klal.Kameevon shebeshuoh shehishtadly lehatzil hasifriyah loi yod'ee bediyuk kamuh hatzav iz geferlech leyidden acheirim, veyn lehashim oisom kol kach, ober fort , eiyn zeh lemalyusah
אין לך מקלדת לשון הקודש?
ReplyDeleteוגם הנני מבין אנגלית, רק אינני יכול לכתוב באנגלית
רביניו אף אחד לא צריך הכיבוד שלך לספרי' נסתדר בלעדיך,
וגם אף אחד לא ביקש מך לחגוג ה' טבת
אין מבצע חב"דית שכלל ישראל יחגוג ה' טבת
זה יום טוב לחסידים, כך אם אין אתה חסיד חב"ד אתה לא מבין הלב של חסידים ואינך מבין איך דבר שהי' קרוב לליבו של אדמו"ר יצא מן מהמיצר אל המרחב.
אז למה לך לדחוף את האף שלך אם אתה לא מבין ההרגשה הזאת?
זה עושה לך טוב להתערב בדבר שאינך מבין?
חוץ מהשטות שהספרי' הי' על חשבון כניסה לבני אדם לארצות הברית, בו בשעה שהי' חוק נוקשה כמה בני אדם להכניס,
ואדמו"ר הריי"צ הי' שו"ע איד וידע טוב מה מותר ומה אסור, ואם אסף גם ספרי מינות בשביל מטרה מסוימת
אני בטוח שהוא ידע שזה מותר ע"פ שו"ע.
ואדמו"ר הריי"צ הי' שו"ע איד וידע טוב מה מותר ומה אסור, ואם אסף גם ספרי מינות בשביל מטרה מסוימת
ReplyDeleteאני בטוח שהוא ידע שזה מותר ע"פ שו"ע
====================================
You ever heard "bimkom chilul Hashen ein cholkim kovod leruv"???
I don't see that you answered my question about the rebbe saying that sifrei apikorsus was for "goyim".
Are you allowed to offer goyim "sifrei minehs"? Answer, please.
What I meant with the books in
Poland (i saw that berel levin said it was 117 boxes of which 100 were retrieved,i think he is referring to this library)was that precious resources of goowill and money were wasted,yes wasted to get these books out of Poland while Jews were suffering there terribly.I wonder also whether there were "sifrei apikorsus" saved bemesiras nefesh in this shipment in case some Jamaican neighbor needs to look up some "apikorsus".It's just so twisted
search in hebrew on the librarys website for "bris hachadosho" aka the new testament, NINE copies....
ReplyDeleteAlso,Yehuda, let's agree that somehow collecting sifrei minnehs is appropriate for a rebbe,but why did the rebbe have to announce this to everyone, bepharhesyah?And I do think you realize that the reason given why sifrei minehs were collected, was that also goyim could be neheneh is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteWhat else did you see there?
You know that if Lubavitch found these seforim in Lakewoods Oitser they'd be making huge protests.
ReplyDeleteTwisted.
The Lubavitchers don't even realize what you want from them.I don't have any real opinion to whom the library belonged.Don't know.The issue was making this victory in goyishe court into a yom tov.Making the challenge against the library as a challenge against Yiddishkait.Silly,twisted.
Yehuda,
ReplyDeleteYou have a library with tours and displays, and librarians. How can you say that nobody knows about it,I understand that the guy that smears the bagels on Kingston ave doesn't know about that library, but whoever has some regard for seforim knows about that place for the 25 years.
One of the interesting issues that even Lubavitchers are asking questions about is that this library is basically a white elephant.It is not used by anyone, hardly.It is not an open library is is the "toy" of a couple of bibliophiles.
ReplyDeleteThe one big miracle is that HebrewBooks.org, powered by two non Lubavitcher nedivim Frieberg and Tzvi Rayzman and founded by a Lubavitcher guy convince Chabad to allow many seforim, about 20 thousand so far to be scanned.So this is an actual to'eles very late in this hey teves "miracle didon notzach" game.
I thing this is almost the only saving grace for the library
Jaim
ReplyDeleteThe answer is simple that the Frierdiger Rebbe was the Tzadik Hador decided to have it in his library, then it his Daas Toireh and you are Apikores if your are skeptic on Daas Torah
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI realize that you may be making fun and just posting a cynical response to what a Lubavitcher would answer.
Truth be told however,I"m less surprised by collecting these seforim and can accept that there was a legitimate reason for them.What really surprised me was the reason given that it was for "goyim"!And the attempt to prove that this library was meant as community property because it was "even meant for goyim because Lubavitch is a light for the nations".
How ridiculous can you get?I don't for one second think that the Raytz was thinking of "goyim" when he collected books.With his tzores through the years from them he was not exactly inclined to favouring them with books.Additionally, how could you offer a goy an apikorshishe sefer?Clear lifnei iver.
This reason given was pure apologetics
There is a cute video from "dallars"(when the rebbe would give out dollars)where a meshumed waited in line to give the rebbe some apikorsishe book.The rebbe took it and said to him "I"m only taking it so you"ll have one less book to give to others" once the meshumed passes on the rebbe throws the book on the floor.
ReplyDeleteInteresting contrast to the apologetics offered here
Jaim
ReplyDelete"How ridiculous can you get? "
Who said this words, the Rebbe
are you saying that the Rebbe is kevyochel .... Rachmona Litzlan
"don't for one second think that the Raytz was thinking of "goyim" when he collected books"
do you claim to have a hasoga in A Rebbe A tzadik Hadoir, How far is holy machsovas were grasping?
what a Ungfresener Menuval
Jaim,
ReplyDeleteBtw, I can tell you bederch efsher a other reason for the Lien Material in the Library, just in case RAK of BMG needed to refresh his Pushkin( Making of a Godal)Course he shouldn't have Bitul torah and get easy access
Jaim,
ReplyDeleteI know personally many Mechabrim that were using the Library for decades before this Hebrewbooks.org started, what a Ignorant Hedyot Kofetz Beroish
Jaim,
ReplyDelete"You ever heard "bimkom chilul Hashen ein cholkim kovod leruv"???"
according to you nobody ever set foot in that Library then how is a Aveira Betzina a Chilul Hashem? he didn't put these books on Hebrewbooks, for the public
Have the transcripts of the trial ever been published? It would make very interesting reading.
ReplyDelete"what a Ignorant Hedyot Kofetz Beroish"
ReplyDeleteDoes insulting make you feel better?
If so I was chotsch mehaneh a Yid
"what a Ungfresener Menuval"
ReplyDeleteThis they taught you in Oholei Torah??
"what a Ungfresener Menuval"
ReplyDeleteHow about a terutz for siffrei minnim in a Yudishe library??
An Ailemesher
ReplyDeletethe transcript was printed immediately after the case was won, I own one.
Jaim
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly is the Issur? their were books put out against Missionaries, or against Yiddishisten, is their a way to answer without knowing what they are talking about.
Jaim,
ReplyDeleteDid the Rambam write the Morah without knowing the kefira hashkofas of his generation, or the Ramban wrote the Sefer vikuach with out knowing the deep annals of Christianity.The Chabad Rebiem were the Lamplighters of Haskofa Tehora and fought all kind of kefira with their body and soul, in the belly of the beast of the Communist atheist regime, to the shores of the Ungefresene USA were our Jaim is having his dose of chicken cutlets with non concentrated orange juice, obviously there was a need for certain raw material
Anonymous Thursday, December 24, 2009 7:17:00 PM
ReplyDeleteIs it possible to get a copy today? Perhaps u should post it on the web.
Jaim
ReplyDeleteI am not a talmud of oholie torah,
the title you got after the sensical reply
כמ טיפשי להשוות הסיפרי' שהיא רק לחוקרים ל"אוצר" בלייקוואוד"
ReplyDeleteאך דשיים אינו מחפש תשובות כי אם שאלות
כמו שכבר ענו לו התגובות הקודמות מצד דע מה שתשיב
אך כל מה שרק תענה יבוא בעוד בלבולים
Jaims reappeared!
ReplyDelete1) sifrei minus was rightfully banned for chassidim (and all simple jews) and is why The Malach was at odds with the establishment. (Chabad obviously claiming that The Malach asked Kashes) And is also why the Rasha"b slapped a bocher who learnt Moreh Nevoichim.
However 'intern tisch' Manhigei Chabad (And all potent gedolei Yisrael)knew much sifrei minus.
But there was no way they could announce it to the public!
A Rationalist such as yourself should know that There is a concept Of Docheh Bekash. When the Rebbe was confronted with the sifrei Minnus issue he said the only viable excuse possible that would satisfy the public and remain true to the general ban on the Masses. That it was intended for goyim...
Jaim, if ur a rational guy then stick by the rules.
And this my friend Jaims is one terrible aspect of The Blogosphere.
ReplyDeleteYou learnt in a 7 blatt a zman yeshiva with an extra 15 inpirational minutes Musser seder in Ellul.
You also attended 3 shiurim from R Yoil and leafed thru the index from the Volpo's yechi propaganda. Spice it up with some leters from Rav Shach about Sukkah, Atzmus Umehus, and Rambam. And for dessert some kfar chabads and weird sichos from 51-52. And... PRESTO! Your a complete deah zugger.
Every Zov and his brother can question whoever and whatever they want and if the teritz doesn't gefel him becouse of yesterdays fight with his Lubab boss or his preloaded Haskafa then all that is sacred to 1000's of jews goes right down the tubes.
Like Whatever
I never said 5 Teves was for all Jews. I said "I understand" it. i.e. I understand why Lubavitcher Chassidim celebrate.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do not understand is the repetitive nagging about "Sifrei Minnes". First of all, the anon hebrew writer explained it just fine: Full service Jewish libraries have all sorts of books for research purposes. I own some myself. (gasp) I am not able to appreciate the indignation. But that's not because I'm Chabad-sympathetic. It's because I have some MO tendencies.
the comment ( original stolen from shneur) was a very low cheapshot, it look like he had a bad hair day, to theorize on the Rebbes insecurity,VeShneur Shepikach Hoyou Ma Rouo Leshtis Zeh.??
ReplyDeleteYehupitz,
ReplyDeleteYou did not read the excerpt from Shurem I posted earlier.In it The Rebbe said that the library was meant for everyone, even goyim and the proof was that there were "sifrei minnus", which were meant for goyim.
So I asked, how can one give sifrei minnehs to goyim??
Chabad has never allowed any introspectcition ala Slifkin, and now we have sifrei apikorsus?
Strange.
Yehupitz,
ReplyDeleteWhat has your owning secular books got to do with anything,I don't believe anybody asked you the contents of your library.
השיחה שהובאה שאתר שטורעם הי' בשבת פנחס תשמ"ה
ReplyDeleteוהוא שיחה שלא הוגהה ע"י הרבי
,
ונרשם ע"י זכרון השומעים ולא יכולים לדייק בכל מילה
ראה שיחה מוגהת מהרבי בספר השיחות תשנ"ב עמוד 226 הערה 84
הרבי כותב שהטעם הוא מצד "דע מה שתשב""
בהמשך לתגובתי הקודמת
ReplyDeleteגם שיחות שלא הוגהו ע"י הרבי נרשמו ונבדקו ע"י חוזרים וכו'
אבל שיחה זו מעולם לא נדפס
בספרי ההתועדיות מפני שהרבי רק אמרו אז לצורך השעה שכולם ידעו לעצור המכירות וכו'
ורק נרשם ע"י יחיד ולשנים ארוכות לא נדפס
לאחרונה הדפיסו את רשימה זו
כך 1) השיחה אינו מוגהת, ולאידך בשיחה מוגה כותב הרבי במפורש שהטעם היא מפני "דע מה שתשיב"
2) השיחה הלא מוגהת לא נרשם ע"י חוזרים כי אם רשימה פרטית
כך אי אפשר לדייק בהמילים של השיחה שהובאה באתר שטורעם
אלא בשיה שעברה ההגהה של הרבי שהבאתי בתגובה הקודמת
as any astrolog knows mazel sartan -tamuz are collecters and the rayatz was this mazel.
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