Rabbi Shlomo Riskin
I'm waiting for the outcry that will never come. For him to be ostracized and for him to lose his Rabbinical license. For his shechitah, geyrus, hashgochoh and anything else he supervises to be annulled. How do I know it won't? it's simple. Not only is there no outcry, they're rushing to his defense! Shlomo Riskin is a nice guy. He even likes Chabad... That's not the point. The point is that we're learning now that the MO have agendas just like everybody else, and they act and react based on those agendas. That makes them like every other group in the Charedi world that protects its own. I could forgive them for not speaking out and condemning their own, since we're all guilty of that, but why give the impression that you're some bunch of frummies who are so bothered by 'treifene hashkofes' when you could really care less? Why delve into this shochet's supposed treif beliefs if you have no standards yourself, if abominations are to be accepted based on "the times that are a'changin," and if all barriers have no value since Science has evolved?
Yeah, I know, Riskin says he was misquoted, that his words were taken out of context. And the YU symposium was condemned by others in the YU faculty. But I dare say that were not Rabbi Meir Twersky a "Twersky" there would be no condemnation forthcoming. And still does not answer for the defenders like Gil Student who came to his defense. So while we wait let me remind you that guys like David Berger have yet to be heard of when it comes to either Riskin or the MZ forum. Maybe he's too busy lecturing about the dangers of Chabad... To their credit, The presidium of YU/RIETS has informed us that such relationships are forbidden, which is good to know. I also see ahead, and see that the comments to this thread will be "there's no comparison," "you're a kool-aid drinker," and "you have no seichel when it comes to Chabad." Then so be it. I'm tired of the bickering anyway, and I wish y'all would be too, and I wish y'all would recognize that Chabad is not your biggest problem anymore.
I guess the tzeilem in the heart is a little transparent.
ReplyDeletewell, he is very "pluralistic" and "open minded".
ReplyDeleteRav Gifter (he might of been a misnaged, but he had a "moil of shroifen" :)) said that middle stream orthodoxy is what the horse leaves in the middle of the road :))
Next step of Riskin- being mesdader kidushin together with a galach (smicha from Rav Jesus)
You people are nuts, he was talking to the goyim and was polite, that's all. He is not at all an enemy of Chabad, why attack him?
ReplyDeleteWatch the video. There's no apikorsus, just fluffy ecumenism.
ReplyDelete(Vee zugtmen 'ecumenism' auf yiddish?)
"Rav Gifter (he might of been a misnaged, but he had a "moil of shroifen" :)) said that middle stream orthodoxy is what the horse leaves in the middle of the road :))"
ReplyDeletesounds like a slight misquote. the old road, pre-automobile days, there was a ditch along the center of the road, the would animals (horses, donkeys etc.) walk along it, and deposited their tzoyeh in that ditch. that's what rav gifter referred to as the path in middle of the road.
chabad has been relatively dormant for the past 18 years. chabad, when they are in their hole aren't a problem for klal yisroel, it's the few times they pop out and make noise that they are a problem. those days are long over, chabad is merely a shadow of what it once was. people like berger need to find problems like chabad, and the silent agudah, to distract from their constituencies' own severe problems. sadly, there are many more rabbonim, whose wine you cannot drink in the circles of the rca, than in chabad.
nobody is attacking riskin, he's a nebach, he's been like that even as a boy in yeshiva of flatbush, the problem is with his student-like defenders.
after the mashgiach arayos blau screaming about the alleged "rampant" molestation in our circles, the galgal hachozer has thrown it back in his face, with the chillul hashem of the year. (yes a bigger chillul hashem then the ejf story, which his circles were gloating about just a week before)
"chabad is merely a shadow of what it once was"
ReplyDeletecute, אשרי המאמין
"chabad is merely a shadow of what it once was"
ReplyDeletecute, אשרי המאמין
------------------------------
Berl, so the Meshichisten who control 770 and Tzfas and its many branches do not make Chabad a shadow of what it once was?
Ashrey hamaamin.
Btw I am a Lubavitcher.
ReplyDeleteTwenty some years ago I used to be a very proud Lubavitcher, now I"m just Lubavitch and some of the things I see make me squirm
I don't even know what he said but given Riskin and what I've heard from him, I'm having a hard time even withholding judgment until I see the video.
ReplyDeleteMinkatcher: Yiddish for ecumenicism is "pogrom"
Tzig: we have our problems too, and while we often cover our dirty laundry too, at least by us it isn't yeharog v'al yavor not to.
Russian chosid,
ReplyDelete"(he might of been a misnaged, but he had a "moil of shroifen" :)"
The correct way to write the above is "He might have" not "might of" maybe that is how it sounds to some people
What happened to my comment about the War between Ger and Lubavitch??
ReplyDeleteI guess you did not like it hence it did not happen.Typical for a guy on kool-aid
What happened to my comment about the War between Ger and Lubavitch??
ReplyDeleteI guess you did not like it hence it did not happen.Typical for a guy on kool-aid
no, you shm__k, we're talking about Shlomo Riskin, where does Arad come into the picture?!
Some people...
Zev
ReplyDeleteI f you enjoy being not proud then keep it up,
Twersky is the Shomer Habris of YU, eventough he is more Brisk then Tolne but some Chernobil root's are still sprouting in his mind, he should have them fast on the Shovovim fridays as the Chrrnobeler custom goes, he shouldn't dare let them go cheap with a little 10 pesukim of Tikkun Hakloli.His Ziedes will not forgive him.
ReplyDeleteWhat does the mussarnik Rav Blau think about the Shomer Negia phenomenon? is it also part of the YU tolerance club?is he feeling their pain too?
shelo asani charedi, no it is עכו'םניזם
ReplyDeleteHirshel,
ReplyDeleteI don't think you should be attacking R'Riskin, first and foremost he was close to the Rebbe and is a friend of Chabad.Friends don't bash friends, ewpecially since we need to hold on to the few yedidim we have in an otherwise jealous world, that can't fargin how special Lubavitch is and how we have quietly had many successes in taking on more and more communal shteles.
Secondly if the Misnagdim don't like him it's probably because he is a good guy.Kyodua, that any good person who won't go along with their insidious agenda "iz achas dosoi"
Shelo Asani Chareidy,
ReplyDeleteI"m curious to where you place yourself on the Orthodox map.You are not a black-hatter for sure.But what are you? Not MO, cuz you don't seem to like Rabbi Riskin.Are you Lubavitch or non denominational?
Seems that Riskin would find a lot of literature in the Chabad library
ReplyDeleteBerel Wein said; Stevie Riskin claims that in Lincoln Square, he had a mechitza of twelve feet. I was there. If the mechitza was twelve feet, then ten of them were underground.
ReplyDeleteHirshel
ReplyDeleteA yedid Lubavitch and an admirer of The Rebbe deserves a lot better than opening up your forum for denigrating posts.I personally think that a yedid Chabad is on a much higher level than all the so calleds.
Can we stop focusing on the exact size of mechitzos and all the minor technical details that the so calleds like so much?
We have a job and it's called 'Hafotzas Hamaayonos'!.Supporting our supporters helps us spread the "maayonos".Vesu loh midy!!
He might be a friend of Chabad, but he is placing many Chabadsters in the same group with the goym asking the same question
ReplyDeleteMaybe they should switch rabbinical positions for a while with RLT
all of the simpletons who are crying that we mustn't insult steve since he "liked the Rebbe and Lubavitch" are merely proving tzig's point about the problem of people willing to ignore any wrongdoing in order to protect their own.
ReplyDeleteAll this chabad friendship talk is relevant, the Chabad dogma is to love every Jew in Any shape or form even if he misspoke.But the question is on the Kosher Chazer Fissel that these guys like Berger and Gil Student like to portray, that they became the new Kanoim of our generation on the back of Chabad, that in my eyes do one Aviera, they don't believe in the neo religious that student and Slifkin wants to shove down our throats,
ReplyDeleteCertain Chabad Chasidim believe that Yakov Ovini Loi Mess Kipshito and the world was created in 6 days, and this Menuvulim will stop at noting to hurt them at their livelihoods.
I know the belief that Paul distorted yeizel's words isn't a know one . . .
ReplyDeleteAs to the video apologetics. There are better things to get worked up about.
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteI know Rabbi Riskin and his family very well on a personal level.He is a firm believer that the Rebbe was the Godol Hador as he once told me.Whether this adds or subtracts to or from the Rebbe's gadlus is of course of no consequence. Neither does it add or subtract to or from my admiration of the man.
However his recent gaff puzzles me.I haven't heard it,only having heard about it from others but I wouldn't judge him by this episode alone.After all we're all only human.
my friends
ReplyDeletethe point is not Riskin, it's the silence by his contemporaries. Forget the fact that he likes Chabad, that's irrelevant, and neither am I calling for him to be strung up!
siyag l'chochma shtika
ReplyDeleteoh i get it there is no out rage people just thought riskin is a lubab
ReplyDeletechabad has been relatively dormant for the past 18 years.
ReplyDeleteLOL!
as for riskin he may be friend with Rebbe but he is against the rebbe's stand on mihu yehudi and many other things so who needs him. not chabad, not litvish, no one except lefties and of course xtians
On Rabbi Riskin and Chabad:
ReplyDeleteWhen Rabbi Riskin was on a recent visit to Melbourne, he visibly squirmed when he noticed the "Yechi sign" at the back of the main shule (Rabbi Groner z"l's shule). He could not believe that it was still up there and felt uncomfortable davening there.
He immediately went to see Rabbi Groner and complained directly to him. Rabbi Groner was quite ill and bed ridden
As I recall, Rabbi Groner told him in not so delicate tones "If you don't like it .... "
Clearly then, Rabbi Riskin holds that Yoshke can't be Moshiach, so why would Rabbi Berger now attack him!
Isaac,
ReplyDeleteI do not understand how the Melbourne episode you recall is in any way a reflection "on Rabbi Riskin and Chabad". I am sure you know that many people who love and admire the Rebbe cringe at the sight of "yechi" paraphernalia.
Both the posting and the comments prove a point that I have been saying for years, in the NEW Orthodoxy , your party , sect etc is much more impt than Torath Moshe or Klal Israel, if a problem in your sect conflicts with Toras Moshe or the welfare of Klala Israel, your group gets precedence.
ReplyDeleteIn other words to a lets say Lakewood person no one there should be criticized , in their minds they know their compatriots are only human , but you need to circle your wagon, the same is true for all groups. If people in the nuclear family behaved the same way, we would have no family to speak of as the son would defend his behavior the father his, the mother hers and so on, no one would ever act for the good of the WHOLE FAMILY. And that is whats going on in orthodoxy today, everyone acts according to their own interests.
So a theoretical discussion of homosexual issues in a MO yeshiva is criticized , but a series of cases of child molestation bePOEL MAMASH in the Aguda-Yeshiva world is hardly noted by that group. Riskins sermon is blasted, but the same Chabad nikim put on blinders to more than a few of their cohorts who clearly believe the Rebbe (lehavdil) is more than human.They are both wrong
My call , lets put Klal israel before the interests of our small sects, groups etc, most of which if we examine our selves seriously (not superficially) we pay lip service to for purely selfish reasons....
Shneur
ReplyDelete" but a series of cases of child molestation bePOEL MAMASH in the Aguda-Yeshiva world is hardly noted by that group"
your point is pure hyperbole, did the 700 charadie perverts make a meeting in Ateres chinka in brooklyn to pour out their pain of being perverts in the closet,and let the Rabonim make it legitimate,
Give me a break, this is a new low...
I was just reading an interview with the new Lubavitcher rebbe in the Sept-Oct 1951 issue of Jewish Life. The interview was conducted by Dr. Gershon Kranzler. On p. 57 the rebbe says " The only way American jewry can live up to its historic task is by self scarifycing self effacing messirath nefesh for the Jewish klal. Everyone must subordinate his own selfish interests and become an ish klloli a Jewish social being instead of a an ish perati a self centered individual" end of Rebbe's statement.
ReplyDeleteIndeed when will we all subordinate all our private groups and relationships to the great klal israel. That is the horooh of this for ourselves in 2010!
Shneur
ReplyDelete"but the same Chabad nikim put on blinders to more than a few of their cohorts who clearly believe the Rebbe (lehavdil) is more than human"
1)Chabad is not in the business of excluding people, RCA was also not in that trade, but they decided its good for parnosa to be on the otherside of the barricades.
2)I dont think that their is a real legitimate Rov or shaliach that had this hashkofa,and the lunatics that are left were already ostracised along time ago, I don't think that every Erev Rosh chodesh, chabad has to produce a new proclamation that gives them the status of sickos
-Shneur: Amazing quote. Is there a pdf or print up of the full interview?
ReplyDeleteSchneur,
ReplyDelete"in the NEW Orthodoxy , your party , sect etc is much more impt than Torath Moshe or Klal Israel"
this is not new, its as old as human nature, please don't be so naive
Berl
ReplyDeleteI was trying to imply that I could not see what the fuss was all about ... In Context ... and that I consider the ongoing use of signs in Chabad Shules as a much bigger story as it is not only a halachically dubious statement but signs BICHLAL have no place in a Shule
I thought that relating the Rabbi Riskin story on such signs was more newsworthy ... But clearly Hirshel disagrees
Where is the Mesora for this cheap sloganeering in a mokom kodosh that only serves to alienate at best or gross out at worst those who happen to find themselves there for davening
I find it divisive and inciteful ... It incites the extreme elements and incites anyone with a semblance of goodwill to Chabad to cast this good will away
It is a much more profound development than Rabbi Riskins clever allegorical device to a xtian audience
Isaac Balbim
ReplyDeleteThere are two groups of people that like Meshichist paraphernalia:Meshichists and Lubavitcher haters.The haters love the signs because its puts Lubavitch in a negative light.Since you claim that Rabbi Riskin was very turned off by the signs I guess you were trying to prove how close he is to The Rebbe and Lubavitch he is and how bothered he was by people who in essence mock the Lubavitcher legacy.
(Ok, maybe you were trying to say something else, something not very smart, but actually tripped up and PROVED how much Rabbi Riskin cares about the Rebbe and Lubavitch.I, for one know that he is a big "ohev Lubavitch")
Additionally, what were you trying to prove by saying that r'Gronmer was not agreeable to getting rid of the Meshichist propoganda.Are you saying he was a Meshichist?Hope not, because its disrespectful to call a deceased non nice names.I"m not bahavent in what is happening in Melbourne now but I heard that Telsner,Groners son in law has his hands full with the meshichist issue and I'm not sure where Telsner himself stands on the issue.Bottom line, Balbim you should be strengthening the pro Lubavitch forces instead of helping the misguided Meshichists.
Last but not least we in New York are in a deep,deep freeze I wish we could exchange places for the Melbourne summer taking place right now!I have sweet memories from shlichus there many years ago during the Ausralian summer.
Issac
ReplyDeleteRabbi Groner was not a Meshchist, but he wasn't ready to fight into a fullblown outright war with the Meshichisten and splinter a city,
the same is in CH with the big shul,it is owned by Aguch that are all adamant anti mescisten, but they are not ready to go thru a ruthless fight with multi arrests and a grand chilul hashem
Anon
ReplyDeleteI can't speak for Melbourne but can speak for Crown Heights.In Crown Heights the Meshichisten are in charge,fully in charge and they have the Israeli Taliban to back them up.It's a useless war because in C.H the meshichists rule big time.
Normal people hardly go to 770 anymore, but actually it is a blessing in disguise.The "LITTLE" shuls are doing very well because of it.,
I make it my business to go to 770 at least once a week as a token protest against the bully Talibaners
A "parevist" is a poseach al shney hase'ifim and way worse than a Meshichist.
ReplyDeleteJust my opinion
What was groner , does anybosy know or it's all boich sevores?
ReplyDeleteyoshe kalb: hah! good pun.
ReplyDeleteharry fan: MO. Saying that you can't be MO if you don't like Riskin is like saying you can't be chassidish if you don't like rebbele X. MO is pretty broad.
Quote of the day: i don't remember from the last time I davened in LS main shul but in the small beis medrash the mechitza is quite respectable.
The issue is keeping the women on their side. Last time I was there for mincha there were a couple women learning on the men's side, they just move over to the ezras nashim for ashrei
Shelo Asani
ReplyDeleteYou and the guy who calls himself Fakewood seem very similar.You guys one?
Guys lets not discuss Lubavitch politics for all to see,k?
ReplyDeleteThis is private stuff, no non Lubavitcher need know what's going on by us.What they need to know we"ll tell them!
yechiel,
ReplyDeleteso we should discuss MO politics, but hide our garbage from them?
It doesn't matter what Rabbi Groner was. It's hardly relevant. What matter is that the sign is still there now. But this is NOT about the Melbourne sign per se. Such signs are everywhere.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that such signs remaining in any mokom kodosh today are a much bigger story in my view than cute allegorical devices used by Rabbi Riskin.
Menachem, the point was precisely that people who admire Chabad, like Rabbi Riskin, absolutely abhor the continued sloganeering pasted over the walls of a shule.
As to your advice that I should be "strengthening the pro Lubavitch forces instead of helping the misguided Meshichists" ... you must have some magical formula that works? I don't know what it is. If you condemn the extremists you aren't helping, if you stay silent you are acquiescing. No Menachem, the extremists are no going away anytime soon. Young kids who never met the Rebbe go to 770 for hiskashrus. What do they see? They see Tzfatim, Elokisten, Boristen and all manner of chanting throughout the day. They come back and they chant. They wear yellow yarmulkas and they call anyone who objects to this extremism "a misnaged" or worse. Once upon a time, you could wear a kneytch in your hat and copy mannerisms. Now, the "real" McCoy who chances upon 770 sees a strange and different world and thinks that this is how they have to act.
Menachem, silence cannot be the answer, can it?
anon 6:42, no.
ReplyDelete"It doesn't matter what Rabbi Groner was. It's hardly relevant. What matter is that the sign is still there now. But this is NOT about the Melbourne sign per se. Such signs are everywhere."
ReplyDeleteWhy isn't it relevant what Groner was?His son in law is still allowing it either because he is a believer or because he is using maaseh rav of the father in law, something the father in law actually had no right to allow.
We need to blast them to pieces.Bimkom chilul Hashem and cholkin kovod lerav!
Pinny, I agree that people who are concerned with their shule should take up the issue directly with that shule's (current) moro d'asro.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, the issue surely is a global one. Would the central Beis Din in Crown Heights and/or Kfar Chabad ever recommend that it is not appropriate to paste slogans in a Shule?
It is ironic. You have people who were even against having sections of the Aseres Hadibros put up, or a Magen David, and others don't like the (non kosher) animals used for the flags of the Shvatim appearing in Shule, but contentious slogans ... yes, they are fine ... even without a mesora
We do have Mesora for "Kodesh Lashem" on the Tzitz but the same people who smirk at those who have their names imprinted on Yarmulkas, now have bright slogans imprinted on their own Yarmulkas (or in many cases they express this only through their children's yarmulkas ... )
Again, my point is, surely this issue is more significant than Rabbi Riskin's phraseology.
Hirshel called for MO and others to condemn Rabbi Riskin's language. I say, that on this basis, would it not be acceptable for MO/RCA/Others to protest the continued divisive sloganeering? Yet, when the RCA or others do protest they are almost always condemned for protesting!
Can you have it both ways?
How he feels about Chabad is irrelevent. This is not about trading referrals and blog roll listings. So 80% of the comments here show a lack of metsius to the question, did he err. Go to Harry Maryles blog, Emet Ve-Emunah and you will see a discussion about the facts on the tape. I happen to think he is not guilty of either meshichism or any apikorsus. But for goodness sake don't take the route of lazy criticism.
ReplyDeleteusing Rabbi Riskin as the excuse to attack MO rabbis Sof Kol ridicules a prominent and important Gavra who held the Rebbe in the highest esteem.
ReplyDeleteNext time find a different venue.
http://www.vimeo.com/5483001
לדאבוני ולצערי הרב
ReplyDeleteThis is precisely what happens when SILENCE is invoked and Meshichism takes over.
On Shabbos, Rabbi Telsner put these people into Cherem.
Watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ZAslYEyCQ
All I can say is עד מתי מאנת לענות
None of these honkers for joy can learn a pasuk Chumash without Rashi on their own. They read Sichos and Ma'amorim in English and were inculcated with their extreme "Dveykus" by Meshichisten who do know how to learn and thought that getting them wound up was the path to Hiskashrus. It was, but Hiskashrus to what.
The text of Rabbi Telsner's Cherem is reproduced below.
It has been brought to my attention that on the 10th of Teves (Sunday December 27th) this year, a day on which our Rabbis decreed that we are obligated to fast, as stated in Shulchan Oruch (Code of Jewish Law Ch. 121), a small group of individuals organised a festive meal at which they ate, drank and rejoiced. They subsequently publicised their actions by posting a film of the festivities on international websites, together with the message and implication that such behaviour is highly commendable and is connected with the coming of the Moshiach.
I therefore wish to state unequivocally and to emphasise in the strongest manner that the above actions, being as they are contrary to the explicit rulings of Chazal and Shulchan Oruch, are totally unacceptable at any time or in any place. That the perpetrators of such misguided deeds should then endeavour to make their behaviour known all over the world, constitutes a massive and reckless Chillul Hashem which can have no justification. In addition, these actions do not represent that philosophy and way of life taught by Chabad Chassidus, in any way or form. They are totally contrary to the wishes and directives of the Rebbe and those who carry on his holy work. To present such conduct as being in accordance with the Rebbe's teachings and message is a complete fabrication, and can only serve to destroy the good name of Chabad in the general community.
In light of the above, I find it necessary to rule that until the perpetrators of these deeds stand before a Beis Din of three Rabbonim, and seek forgiveness and correction of that which they have done, they are to be ostracized by all members of the community. They cannot be counted as part of a minyan (for davening) or mezuman (for bentsching), and one may not answer Amen after their Brochos. They cannot be given a Aliyah to the Torah or honoured with any other Mitzvah (see Shulchan Oruch, Yoreh Deah Ch. 334 Para 2). Similarly, one should not speak to them or have any business dealings with them.
May the Al-mighty restore His broken fences, and put into the hearts of those who have gone astray, a spirit of true Teshuvah.
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner
Yeshivah Centre
This is precisely the type of antinomianism that the original misnagdim thought would infuse chassidism.
This is no time for anyone to feel good. Action is needed and it's not a Melbourne thing. There must be a stance taken against signs, chanting and all that goes with it. If someone really wants to think that the Moshiach will be the last Rebbe, internalise it. The only external manifestation should be an expansion of Torah and Mitzvos and Mivtzoim. These slogans will destroy a generation of kids. We have 13 Ani Ma'amins. We don't need or want a 14th.
Isaac ,
ReplyDeleteThere is a big "but" to this letter.
The "but" is that Telsner allows those yellow signs in the back of the shule,right?
I.o.w, "He that sleeps with Dogs, must rise with Fleas."
Telsner is a Meshichist,right? Correct me if I"m wrong.(maybe he is a pragmatist, parevist or whatever, but still he won't taken the right stand about the Meshichists)
And if we"ll be honest the problem started with Groner allowing this nonsense.Ideology or pragmatism?
Don't know.
Just know that until we start behaving in a normal fashion, calling a spade a spade (and not using euphemisms like "gimmel Tammuz)we have a problem.Here and on the other side of the globe.
Melbourne Yid, I don't like it when you drop the title Rabbi from respected Rabonim. It's hard to take you at all seriously
ReplyDeleteFurthermore my comment says it all.
Isaac,
ReplyDeleteSorry for dropping the titles.I have to ask you, though why you are focusing on the titles which are not the issue???Is it just an easy way to get out of handling and taking on the issue????
I for one no longer step into Yeshiva until R Telsner repudiates a twisted belief.
What are you doing besides kissing up and demanding titles????
Do you think the real problem is that five idiots decided not to fast?Do they have sway over our community?
The real problem is that R'Groner allowed and did not take a stand and it's compounded with the current office holder having sympathies that are closer to the yellow flags.
Isaac, you have to be brave and call a spade a spade.Unless you don't actually care about the future of Lubavitch in Australia and worldwide eventually.
I do
Hirshel,
ReplyDeleteAny take on the Youtube video and cheirem?
I think this may backfire because the are getting a lot of free p.r because of the chirem.
Btw, the shliach in Ibiza,Spain, is he for real???He says shem Hashem like its written (not adnus)and was eating already on shiva ossor betamuz.
What a sick video.
I hope this is just a loose meshichist cannon
Mordy,
ReplyDeleteHirshel does not discuss internal Chabad Lubavitch disagreements on this site.
This site is about finding fault in anyone but chabad
Melbourne Yid: I posted the comment and the video link! I am not sure why you are accusing me of not being "brave". I clearly am not in favour of this behaviour. I wrote that action is required. You seem to have assumed that my action is limited to a blog comment post. I can assure you, as can people at Yeshivah, that I bring this issue up constantly. In fact my children say I am obsessed with trying to stop the sloganeering. I don't need to answer to you, of course.
ReplyDeleteMy comment about dropping the titles was that despite the fact that I disagree with certain people, I would not call them by their surnames. That is disrespectful. Believe it or not, I actually talk to them about the issues. Last night, for example, I spoke with a relative of one of the people put into Cherem. It's a very difficult situation. These Jews are brainwashed and experience cultic behaviour. Their poor children will become victims of excommunication.
Another person suffering from the Meshichist form of "Jerusalem Syndrome" is seen here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0C9JqLJGPY
Don't rejoice. Don't run away from Chabad Shules. Go there. Speak quietly and firmly and respectfully and register your protest directly with those who matter.
Isaac
ReplyDeleteI"m not rejoicing.I'm not running away from Yiddishkait.I am running away from shules that allow twisted rubbish, be they Chabad or others.
What I meant by taking a stand is not posting a youtube video link about five morons.It means taking a firm stand against Meshichisten and or their backers who are the reason for this craziness.They are just one step behind.If Telsner hasen't realized this until now my telling him will not help.
_________________________
"I don't need to answer to you, of course."
Isaac ,
Of course you don't need to answer to me, but I just realized that I don't need to answer to you either, hence I dropped the undeserved honorific.M's or there sympathisers don't get titles from yours truly
Melbourne Yid: You seem to be misinformed. There have been ongoing efforts for some time now. Those efforts are not enough. Running away means you cease to express your views directly. I do. I don't suffer from delusions to the extent that I think that my opinion alone will have much if any influence but I continue to agitate, and I agitate to their faces. I even have a swap campaign :-) where I am happy to give someone my Yarmulka in exchange for their yechi Yarmulke. I am not successful some of the time, but I want to put it in their minds that Yidden are not happy with this. Not Yidden who carp from behind their backs but Yidden who sit next to them in Shule,
ReplyDeleteMake no mistake, the link was posted in order to highlight the gravity of the situation. I didn't do it for kicks nor did I do it without some thought,
How can you drop the title of people with whom you don't interact and who are recognised Talmidei Chachomim? Can you name the Rabbi who agrees with you to the extent that he feels you should post their names on blogs without calling them HoRav or Rabbi? I concede there will be Rabonim who say you shouldn't daven there, but I can't envisage a single Rabbi, be it from the Charedim in Melbourne, the Mizrachi, or the Misnagdim from Lakewood or their splintered breakaway who would advocate you dropping the title.
Most importantly, do you really think that simply posting comments against me as opposed to confronting them directly in their habitat is going to make an iota of difference?
I have only a very very very slim chance of making a difference. You have none.
Isaac
ReplyDeleteThere is no question that you mean well,however there is also no question that you have failed and will fail in your mission to try and beat any sense into the yellow plague guys and their sympathisers.
Despite all the talk of the demise of the Yellows for the last 15 going on 16 years nothing is further from the truth.From a small group of grief stricken or mostly mentally imbalanced youngsters on Gimmel Tammuz they have grown into a powerful group who's sympathy most of the future of Chabad have i.e the youth.Even the Mumbai Chabad as wonderful as they were were sympathisers.
The way to try and rebalance what will ultimately be a sinking ship based on historical precedent is not by being nice and saying puchinyuh and playing kippa swapping games.
Additionally, you give way to much credence to titles.In the outside frum world sympathisers of the Yellows do not get any considerations and they don't deserve it.Not only because backing a dangerous movement is more than sinful but really someone who actually thinks they have a case is in the best of cases a talmid chochochom she'ein bo daas.I'm sure you know what the Medrash says about such .
Be well, nothing here is meant as a personal affront
I don't take any personal affront, but I am saddened by your defeatist and cold approach.
ReplyDeleteIsaac and melbourne yid - do you realize that you agree with each other 99% and I think it is a shame to waste your energy and time on the other 1%.
ReplyDeleteI must agree that the sign will probably never come down, nor the Yechi chanting, yarmulkas, flags, signs, etc stop. Things don't change easily at Yeshivah.
Recently I saw a police mug shot of Rabbi David Kramer, who got 7 years, and I was not happy Jan. Maybe some of your energies can go into asking Rabbi Telsner or RCA what should be done with these people if ch"vsh it happens again.
Anonymous: I have been speaking not only to R' Telsner but also to the Va'ad Ruchni and also to the Rabbinical Council of Victoria about the likes of Kramer and Adass's Mrs Laufer. I have been doing so for months.
ReplyDeleteThe 1% that we disagree on is significant. It is the difference between interacting with Chabad versus ostracising them, Vedal.
Isaac Balbin - Thank you for your efforts to bring normality back and to 'keep the bastards honest'. Also for your 3 part comments on other thread - all correct and eloquent - and I sincerely hope you are successful in ALL that you are trying to change.
ReplyDeleteMaybe RCV or whoever can come out with a statement / policy re; Kramer etc so that the correct action can be implemented automatically ch'vsh next time. I think in the US, the procedure is to call the police, as it should be.
(PS I personally cannot doven there with the sign and the chanting, and have blissfully not heard a Yechi for years. Sorry.)
Isaac,
ReplyDeleteYou have written a very well written post, the one in 3 pieces.
I totally disagree with you, however and honestly would rather you be right this time, since if I"m right it's tzores for Lubavitch and mekurovim
"R' Telsner is also a Meshichist. He is a theologically based Meshichist."
The above are your words and they scare me, because maybe you don't realize yet that the much larger problem is when a learned individual sympathises with a twisted ideology.I"m quite sure that the misguided individuals have not convinced anybody and actually have done major damage to their cause.A ROV who agrees with a dangerous theology can be very,very dangerous.
I want to add that we don't know each other at all and I only vent on the web about my inner beliefs and challenges so nobody besides the missus really knows where I stand.You also hit it on the nail when you correctly assesed that the 1% between us is actually a huge gap and very divergent opinions.
There would be a lot I could add addressing mistakes that chasidim made when they got caught up in a fanatical fervour etc but here is not the place.Also if I may add, a very brave lady from Crown Heights that moved here was one of the lone voices of sanity, a bt, who suffered from voicing her truth, a truth that Chabad rabbonim were and still are blind to see.
Be well, continue your unique style of voicing your opinion, even though we disagree
Have a great shabbos.