A ho-hum shmuess between Rav Sterbuch of Antwerpen, brother of Rav Moshe Sternbuch of Jerusalem and the Satmar Rebbe of Kiryas Joel. The last shtikkel on the page is where the smeteneh ligt behalten. Here's what he says (for the benefit of those who don't read or understand Mamehloshen:
"In Dzhikov one did NOT sleep in the Sukkah. If somebody happened to DOZE OFF in the Sukkah he would be awakened, so that he not transgress... They would wake him by saying: "Nu, Sukkah..."
This is obviously not some Lubavitch propaganda piece, but a matter-of-fact discussion between two Rabbonim, one ah Satmarer and one a SIL of the Seret Vizhnitzer Rebbe, but an eynikel of the Gro. (Sternbuch, obviously) The problem is that in their eyes and in the eyes of many of their readers this is comparable to two people talking about - say, the Amshinover Rebbe and when he lights Chanukah licht. In other words it's cute. It has no real meaning to them, and definitely is not something that either they or those who claim to represent Dzikov today should follow. Which is where Lubavitch comes into the picture; had Lubavitch just said that "In Lubavitch we didn't sleep in the Sukkah," there would be no issue. People would either smile, roll their eyes, or maybe life a fist מתוך התרגשות, but that would be it. But once you follow that minhag, no matter what the source, that's when they lose it and start calling you all kinds of names. Which is fine if you don't believe in anything outside of mainstream Halochoh and don't have any such minhogim - in other words kalte Litvakes. But if you consider yourself the true followers of chassidic greats like Sanz and Dzikov and Ujhel and Belz (and the list goes on) then we have a problem if you condemn others who do like the Dzikover Zeide. If you do all the geshmake things like yud beis challos and fancy clothes and large scale Mitzvah tantzen, why not try something that might get you into a little hot water with G-d's lawyers?
In Nitei Gavriel (Sukkos), he brings a whole list of the Kreizen which do and don't sleep SHMINI ATZERES in the Sukkah. I don't have the sefer in front of me now, but IIRC that there were others (besides Dzhikov and Lubavitch) who wouldn't sleep there all Sukkos..
ReplyDeleteCan anyone share [from there or elswhere] others with the same minhag?
besides not sleeping in the succah, they also don't learn gemoro in the succah. a minhag.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why this is so difficult for so many in chabad to understand.
ReplyDeleteThe issue is NOT that there is ample halachic reasons to be Patur from the mitzva. It is mentioned in RAMOH. based on Hamitztaar Poter. We don't know if the Dzikover was awakened was not a frummie who dozed off in chilly wheather... and as a frummie he was awakened not to be so frum. Its a simple story.
My father olav Hashalom told me that the Rosh Hakuel from his Hungarian town a rich belzer chasid traveled to Belz and slept in the succah and the Yoshvim climbed on top and parted the schach and poured the contents of the נאכט געשיר over his head.
(how do you translate this? for those who have no sewer plumbing they had 'night utensils') Och in vey!
But the issue is and was that the Chabad Rebbe of blessed memory nishmosey eden! claimed that there is a postive command not to sleep according to kabalalistic reasons.
That is a far cry from what we are speaking. If its cold in Belz and the Halacha says not to sleep and the Rebbe doesn't, one should not be more frum than the Rebbe.
But to say in a warm night or in Eretz Yisroel there is some sort of "אורות מקיפין" and all the fancy words that completely are עוקר the mitzva, is in the eyes of so many talmiday chachamim a thing that borders on kefirah. If you don't see the difference its your problem. I am sure that the Rebbe could defend himself its not my business. But don't distort what the Taanos are.
BTW The Ari zal slept in the sucah and most kabalists say there can be no inyan in Kabala whatsoever neged HaARi Hachai! (מנחת אלעזר)
Yosef 718
everybody knows chabad never slept - the Rebbe wanted to make it mainstream, that no one should sleap in the succah and those that to are being controlled by the same forces that stirred the fight of Reb Chaim Volozhiner, chas vesholom. that's where the dog is buried
ReplyDeleteTo Yosef718 -
ReplyDeleteAs is famous, the Rebbe zy"a's father (HaRav Levi Yitzchak Schneersohn zt"l) would lean more towards the Kabbala.
His hanhagos etc was sometimes expressed by his son the Rebbe (who would bichlalus fihr as his Shver, the Rayatz, as Chassidus or mainstream-halacha would hold (vs Kabala)- and sometimes as his father, mitzad Kibud Av l'choira), and then again sometimes as a compromise. [B'inyan acheir ktzas {Minhag Chabad vs. the Rebbe's minhag), the Rebbe's hanhago of holding the Eitz HaChaim with the talis on Simchas Torah vs a gantz yohr].
Regarding Leilei Sukkos, m'zogt that the Rebbe wouldn't sleep AT ALL (at least b'kviyus; To Note: in general the Rebbe would sleep for short shifts, as his Rebbetzin once expressed that a 4(!) hour sleep b'retzifus was shelo b'erech long fahr mein mahn..).
THIS, in accordance with the Rebbeim's point of makifin d'bina in the Sukkah. And his father's point (I don't have the sources here with me) to not sleep AT ALL on Leilei Sukkos, even in the house, seemingly al pi Kabbala (See the mayse brought further down).
SEEMINGLY, then, the Ari's hanhoga which was referenced by Yosef718 may possibly not be ALL d'rachim in Kabbala (which itself צע"ק , as R. L"Y would l'choira follow the Ari's derech before that of other shvilim in Kabbala).
And there is a mayse which l'choira attests to this hanhoga:
From a talmid's "yoman" from Leil Shmini Atzeres 5738 (After the Rebbe suffered the heart attack):
גיסתו של כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א ירדה מביתה לג"ע התחתון, והריל"ג הודיע לכ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א מבואה. כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א נתן לה רשות להיכנס, והיא שאלה: "וואָס הערט זיך?" כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א אמר לה שהשבוע לא ישן וכל היום עמד וחילק לעקאַח, "איך האָב ניט געגעסן אַ גאַנצן טאָג און ניט געשלאָפן", אבל הלילה ינוח ובע"ה מחר יהי' סדר רגיל. הנ"ל יצאה מחדרו הק' ובראותה את הריל"ג אמרה לו שייכנס וישתדל שרופא יבקר את כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א.
(Although I'd heard it previously that the whole week he didn't sleep - the Yiddish quotes in this yoman seem to imply only that day. BUT, as it MUST be emphasized - yomanim were not edited by the Rebbe, and it's totally on the writer's achrayus. AND, more likely that the talmid only "caught" the Rebbe's last phrase, u'lchoira poshut..)
I said over at harry's
ReplyDelete""Good point. I guess I meant more accepted than they are now."
I was not asking about Chabad and the full spectrum.
What about Modern O.......Satmar, yeSHIVISH, bRESLOV.... ETC...
How much more is each group accepted by the full spectrum compared with Chabad?
Will the Belzer Rebbe? Will Rabbi Weismandel eat At Rabbi Berger's house?"
Harry is less accepted in the spectrum than you are Tzigster with your furry hat.
How can they claim you daven in a church c"v? The one guy who shouted Yechi while visiting was catcalled quiet while you stood by.
Voos hut men zich yetzt in miten Nisson dermant fun Sukkos?!
ReplyDeleteItzter in di Sfireh Teg iz efsher gleicher tzu reiden vegen shneiden di Peyos.
Yosef 718
ReplyDeleteDoes the bitul torah (a Mitzvas Eseh )of all chassidim on Nittel Nacht border with Kefira? mass scale bittul torah with no heter of the Remo.
Did the Brissen of Reb Mottele nadvorner after the Night fall border with Kefira? etc....
Did reb Arele Belzer davenen after Chatzois with 1000's of chasidim on Rosh hashana with a big part of the chasidim not hearing the Tekias border with Kefira? My father was in Budapest when it happened,saying that the Rosha (Hitler)doesn"t let him daven is no halachic heter not for him and for sure not for the Chasidim
what a stupid biased statement to say on a Goan Alokai Ish Halacha as the Lubavicher Rebbe ZY"A that it borders with Kefrah, most of the rebbes didn"t even cringe when they had Minhogim against Shulchan Oruch, but the Rebbe that tried to match the Minhag with the shulchan Oruch you have the audacity to question his validity, the irony of this argument can only be answered with a certain anti chabad bias.
I read the Rebbe's conversation about the issue with Rav Tzvi Kahana in Siach Sarfei Kodesh (p. 209) and do not understand why the Rebbe did just explain the reasoning as opposed to lashing out.
ReplyDeleteTo Yosef:
ReplyDelete"But to say in a warm night or in Eretz Yisroel there is some sort of "אורות מקיפין" and all the fancy words that completely are עוקר the mitzva, is in the eyes of so many talmiday chachamim a thing that borders on kefirah...
Don't distort what the Taanos are."
Your statements themselves are a clear distortion of the Taanos. The Sichah is clear and printed for everyone to see, and the Rebbe Zatza"l himself asks, "how can one part of Torah (Kabbalah) conflict with another part of Torah (Halacha) being that they are one entity 'Torah Achas Hi'?!" He then goes on to explain how and why there is in fact no conflict whatsoever.
Mordechai,
ReplyDeleteFirst the rebbe explained it already, and he wasn't ready to be put on the stand by some Mecharcher Riv, put up by a Tzoirer Hayehudim of Benai Berak, that even after he will hypothetical see the Rebbe is correct on that issue he will go on with his professional hate mongering, a Chabad rebbe feels enough secure with his emuna vedaios not to be lectured by some litvak or Yosef 718
Once again I must comment on the Yiddish "smetena ligt behalten " never heard my parents ever use such a phrase.Never heard anyone who speaks Yiddish use such a phrase.Never saw this phrase in any Yiddish books by Grade, IJ Singer, IB Singer, Opatoshau, etc. perhaps its an example where a regional dialect from Marmorash is now becoming "normative" Yiddish. In Litvishe -White Russia Yiddish one says "dorten ligt der hunt behalten "
ReplyDeleteR Schneur:
ReplyDeletelooking back at it now I'm not sure why I used that phrase, the smeteneh being behalten, but I will say that the hunt being behalten is definitely inappropriate in the case, since we're talking about the good part, the smeteneh, not c"v a thing like a dog!
Yosef 718
ReplyDelete"no inyan in Kabala whatsoever neged HaARi Hachai! (מנחת אלעזר)"
the holy Munkatchers teshuva on the heter of Avoiseni Verabosanie going against a explicit Chazal that you have to eat in the Sukah on Shemini Atzeret,also borders with Kefira, we Orthodox Jews don"t differentiate between a Chazal and a Deoraisa, His teshuvah on that subject is full of holes.Their is no Rema that writes that we should be Maikel on Shemini Atzeres, or no tura zohav that writes a Heter even for warm towns that you can not have your wife in the Sukka is 1 of the Hetierim even for warm places.according to you between the Rema and the Taz you have lo alieni a akiras hadas.
Schneur,
ReplyDeleteMaramoresh has no legitimacy to go universal with their Yiddish phrases? is Yiddish owned by "Grade, IJ Singer, IB Singer, Opatoshau, etc"
In Lita we would say dorten iz die richtike smetana .
ReplyDeleteI did not mean to say that "hunt " would be apropriate here rather smetana is correct but not behalten.
"I read the Rebbe's conversation about the issue with Rav Tzvi Kahana in Siach Sarfei Kodesh (p. 209) and do not understand why the Rebbe did just explain the reasoning as opposed to lashing out.
ReplyDeleteBecause the Rosh Yeshiva's question wasn't about the reasoning for the minhag but rather what to answer to those who criticize it. The Rebbe's answer was that there is no point in answering because those who pose the question aren't interested. Their sole purpose is to stir up machlokes where none is justified. Accordingly, the Rebbe's "lashing out" as you call it was directed at them, not at Rav Kahana.
schneur, would you say der hunt behalten or dorten (or ut duh) ligt der hunt bagroben
ReplyDelete"Dort ligt der hunt bagroben" rather then "bahalten"
ReplyDelete"Does the bitul torah (a Mitzvas Eseh )of all chassidim on Nittel Nacht border with Kefira? mass scale bittul torah with no heter of the Remo.
ReplyDeleteDid the Brissen of Reb Mottele nadvorner after the Night fall border with Kefira? etc....
Did reb Arele Belzer davenen after Chatzois with 1000's of chasidim on Rosh hashana with a big part of the chasidim not hearing the Tekias border with Kefira? My father was in Budapest when it happened,saying that the Rosha (Hitler)doesn"t let him daven is no halachic heter not for him and for sure not for the Chasidim"
But no Rebbe got up and said that al pi kabala limud hatorah is botol m'kol ve'chol!. It is one thing to say that one should postpone all secular matters (like tearing toilet paper for year round shabbos) for nital night or as the NON-CHASID the Chasam Sofer says one should go to sleep early on nital - as is done is most chasidic yeshivas in order not to be mevatel torah.
As far as late davening just proves my point no Rebbe got up and said that according to kabala there is no zman tefilah. Or did Reb Mottele say al pi kabala we must make brisen at night. (the fact that the Tzanzer was ready to put him in Cherem proves that it never was a free for all bitul of Halacha and a clear mitzva.)
Its very typical of the lub chasidim response - which is never to the point raised. It all reverts to the famous video we see the Rebbe speaking to the issue.. "its just sinah" "everybody does it" "you have your own sins" ...
But never do we get from anybody a a response to a serious question. Is it possible to completely be mevatel a clear mitzva מכל וכל for all Jews under a claim of kabala?
Or to be more specific can a claim of not wanting offend מקיפין דבינה of chasid of a Rebbe sufficient to be called המצטער פטור.
Its OK to be a מאמין in the Rebbe נ"ע. But why and how does klal yisroel accept that as valid.
I have done this test numerous times of so many defenders of the Rebbe position (all say based on "everybody does it), I always ask have you seen the text of the Rebbe?
When I show it, most Viznitzers Belzers Satmars and regular chasidishe people are shocked. You are entitled to say that the Rebbe was a Gaon Eloki fine! I agree!
But you not entitled to claim that those who question this, that its about Rav Shach's hate, Yosef's hate..It just doesn't wash.
As for the Kabala again and again. Over many generations all true kabalists including the Ari himself have warned that there is NO such thing as Kabala that can be contrary to kabolas HaAri. And the Ari has kavanos for sleeping in the succa as the מנחת אלעזר points out.
It is perfectly legit for Kabalist to cry out that it is wrong to say that there can be kabala reason for being mevatel this mitzvah ENTIRELY for ALL Jews in all places.
As for Shmini Atzeres there are many achoronim non chasidic who hold so. עיין קרבן נתנאל על הרא"ש הלכות סוכה
Yosef 718
There is an inherent fallacy and dishonesty in the Lubavitcher position "explaining" the sukka and other problematic Lubavitcher issues.The issue is that,like in the parable of the Dubner Magid, you first shoot the arrow, than you draw the bulls eye.
ReplyDeleteThe Lubavitcher are always right, because, they/he just are (of course there are deeper psychological reasons why The Lubavitcher had to be infallible...)
If the halachik reasoning had to stand on it's own it would be without any merit as anybody who has read the Sicha knows.It is a somewhat interesting collection of a nice "chap" of the Rogatchover who is medayek the Rambam that sheina besukka is not an inherent part of mitvas sukka, rather a technical detail that one may not sleep outside of the sukka without a heter.This allows him to claim that one can be mekayem mitvas sukka to perfection even if one does not sleep there.This answers how the Rebbeim who did not sleep in the sukka but were careful to be mekayem every mitva to perfection were still yotsei mitvas sukka behiddur.The rest of the Sicha degenerates slowly till it reaches the very dubious claim that chasidim who do not have the "petur" of "miztaer" from the "oros demakifin" since they do not feel them, can still claim "mitstaer" because they want to copy their rebbe who does not sleep in the sukka but cannot, cuz they don't feel "tsa'ar" from sleeping in "oros demakifin",however this alone causes them so much distress, i.e that they cannot follow their rebbes minhag, that they cannot sleep, therefore,eureka! they are once again "mitsta'arim"!
I have been through a few yeshivos and can assure you that any rosh yeshiva or rebbi making such an illogical statement would be shouted down from his podium.
Also the whole claim that Lubavitcher Rebbeim did not sleep in the sukka or even more so thought one was not permitted to is a very circular one.How did the whole thing start:Around 1930 the Frierdiger Rebbe repeated a story from the Mitteler Rebbe that upon seeing some chasidim dozing in a sukka asked incredulously "how can one sleep beoros demakifin".Needless to say that there was no minhag known to chasidim not to sleep in the sukka till then.Rabbi Moondshine in Otsar Minhogei Chabad brings that even in the town of Lubavitch some people slept in the sukka and others did not.No different than the rest of klal yisroel, where cold,insecurity and for other reasons people were meikel.The Rebbe in the Sicha writes that if the Frierdiger Rebbe did not sleep in the sukka, he must've seen so by his father the Rasha"b, who saw the same by the Mahara"sh, who saw the same by the Tzemach Tzedek etc.and memeileh that is "obviously" an iron clad minhog yoshon.I think anybody can realize that the logic is circular and it can very well be that the some of the Rebbeim slept in the sukka while others did not not.Since the Baal Hatanya very clearly rules that there is a chiyuv gommur medoraysa to sleep in the sukka even "sheinas aray" a catnap and nowhere was there a minhag Chabad noted NOT to sleep in the sukka, this whole practice is quite questionable.
P.S
ReplyDeleteAs the Rebbe notes in the Sicha in the he'oros, "sheinas aray" a catnap cutz lesukka may be only ossur medrabonnon
There is another Lubavitcher minhag, that to me is of the same circular school of thought.It is the minhag of eating before davening.The reasoning for this, given by the Rebbe is the clear psak in Shulchon Oruch that "horoev vehatsomeh bichlal choilim", someone who is hungry has the din of a sick person who may eat before davening.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the "problem" with this claim? Well, it is a bit of a stretch to give a whole community, every day of the year a "din" of "choleh" isn't it?
The reason Lubavitchers are more hungry than other Jews is quite simple, they daven much later!
So, why not daven at a regular time and not have to use a dubious heter that everyone is a "choleh"?
The reason for that is that Lubavitcher chasidim are expected to learn Chassidus for quite long before davening to get the correct frame of mind to be able to daven before Hashem.Fine.Why not get up a bit earlier so you can learn a n hour before davening and not be so terribly hungry??I don't know.
Bear in mind that Lubavitcher yeshivos daven at about 9:30 in the morning, weekdays and 10 or 10:30 (shabes mevorchim)shabes.
I would like to be corrected, but believe that I know of no other group of healthy able bodied men who eat before davening on a wholesale scale.
Boruch,
ReplyDeleteIn my eyes if the Rebbe said that today everybody has a din Choleh 6 o'clock in the morning then I am fine. Its as fine as if the Pischei teshuva would bring it from any Achron, eventough a Mechutzaf like you will call it degenerate,the same degenerate halachas is being used in the world of pesak. By most chasidim women don"t fast on tanasim outside of TB and Yom Kippur, because they have a din choleh, eventough every doctor will tell you different In the world of Yerushaliemer pesak pregnant women don"t fast on Tisha Beav , according to reb YY Fischer and others since they have a din choleh, eventough every Doctor will tell you differently. In Brisk they don"t fast no Tanaisim outside of Yom Kippur and T B, because of the degenerate pesak of Choleh for eveyone.
Boruch,
ReplyDeletewho exactly invented the Minhag? the FR? the Reshab? were they Kalim Veraikim? did they have a geshmak in oiker zein a halocha in shulchan Orech? you think the FR that gave his life many times for Hashem Vetorosai was out to change from his fathers Minhag that was so holy in his eyes,In my eyes I would not accuse a Kedoish Elokai with your fargrebte thoughts.
Well I must say while I agree with many of Boruch's observations I cannot go along with many things he says.
ReplyDeleteThis is why he is off the mark.
"nowhere was there a minhag Chabad noted NOT to sleep in the sukka, this whole practice is quite questionable."
The issue was never and should not be "practice" because almost all practice can be explained away for any particular situation or circumstance.
The issue about the Succah was always about the Rebbe's JUSTIFICATION of a general bitul mitzvah.
Of course the Rebbe and the chasidim have since published again and again apologetics and endless references to "everybody does/did it", as is the original reason for this posting by our tzig.
And it is "always" a שלא ממין הטענה response. The criticism is not why in chabad they don't sleep in the succah, and yes like the women in a taanis they "all" are maybe sick or weak. who knows.
But that is a far cry from claiming a kabalistic "justification" for eliminating a specific command, an entire perek in a mesichta from the Torah.
In short its about what is being "said" not what is being "done"
ועי' ברמב"ן פ' תבא שזה שבא בתורה ארור אשר לא יקום את כל דברי התורה הזאת, הכוונה שיודה במצות בלבו ויהיה בעיניו אמת, ואם יכפור באחת מהם או תהיה בעיניו בטלה, הוא בכלל ארור, אבל אם עבר על אחת מהן לתאותו, או שלא עשה סוכה ולולב לעצלה, אינו בכלל זה כי לא נאמר ארור אשר לא יעשה את דברי התורה הזאת, רק נאמר ארור אשר לא יקום כטעם קיימו וקבלו היהודים עיי"ש
So Boruch, the Ranban is speaking directly to you, and as long as they hold true that a healthy person should fast then they are included in מודה בלבו שזה אמת
BTW: This Ranban is something that I personally used to convince a Jewish man who used to eat pork on Yom Kippur to become a BT, because he told me that he knows that its a sin but he can't be religious.... But when I showed him this Ranban he was flabbergasted and slowly came back to yiddishkiet and now he lives a full frum life with a family.
I am not the one who has the chutzpa to challenge the Rebbe. He was a "Gaon Eloki" and could defend himself. All I am doing is to show that this is/was never about "hate" and that the taanos were never ever dealt with in a serious way.
Yosef 718
As a Lubavitcher I find it quite interesting to find that there is a "Chabad Minhag" which i've never heard of, namely to eat before davening!
ReplyDeleteלא היו דברים מעולם!
The only thing I can imagine is that this is some gross distortion of the Hayom Yom for the 10th of Shvat, these are the words of the Friefike Rebbe:
"When my grandmother, Rebbetzin Rivka, was eighteen (in 5611, 1851) she fell ill and the physician ordered her to eat immediately upon awakening. She, however, did not wish to eat before davening; so she davened very early, then ate breakfast. When her father-in-law, the Tzemach Tzedek, learned of this he said to her: "A Jew must be healthy and strong. The Torah says about mitzvot, 'Live in them,' meaning bring vitality into the mitzvot. To be able to infuse mitzvot with vitality, one must be strong and joyful." Then he concluded: "You should not be without food. Better to eat for the sake of davening rather than to daven for the sake of eating;" he then blessed her with long life. [She was born in 5593 (1833) and passed away on Sh'vat 10, 5674 (1914)].
My father told this teaching of the Tzemach Tzedek to someone at yechidus, adding: "And this must be done with joy."
In other words if someone is a Choleh, he is instructed to eat in order to serve Hashem better, and because it is being done as part of one's service of Hashem it must be done with joy. Although it is not the ideal situation, in this situation this is actually what Hashem demands of you.
Agav, this reminds of the famous story of Reb Meilich of Lizensk and his brother Reb Zushe of Anipoli related here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/619475/jewish/The-Joy-of-a-Mitzvah.htm
Oh, and with regard to this whole issue of Sukka and being Oiker a mitzvah Chabad-Revisited already pointed out that this point itself is adressed by the Rebbe in the Sichah. Yet people continue to repeat the same shtusim again and again, do they think that if they say that moon is green enough times it will actually come true?!
ReplyDeleteTo me this whole discussion seems like pure unadulterated bigotry directed against Chabad and their Rebbe Zatza"l. Anyone convincing themselves otherwise is simply deluded...
ReplyDeleteYosef 718
ReplyDelete"for nital night or as the NON-CHASID the Chasam Sofer says one should go to sleep early on nital - as is done is most chasidic yeshivas in order not to be mevatel torah."
it is a lie, in all yeshivas life goes on the other morning as usual, no Yeshiva starts Seder earlier, being that a yeshiva is closing its doors in a green 25th of Dec by most Chasidim as Visnitz by Chatzois in midday, it is bitul a Mitzvas Esse, being that a non chosid like the CS did it too doesn"t change it one iota, all gedolim tried to explain the massive Bittul Torah that is being perpetrated on a big scale, I don"t see no difference between these weak explanation of Sutra Achra even it was brought down in the Benai Yisoscher with the Rebbes getting up and explaining a minhag that he saw by his great FIL, that it should match with the poskim,
According to your twisted logic if the Kozhiglover Rov or the Nizniver rov explain the reason that Rebbes davened late, are they in your eyes begeder Kefira since they come up with the heter like the Rebbe did.But the Rebbes that are the transgressor themselves with no stomach ache for the halacha are squeaky clean I love your twisted logic.
Yosef 718
ReplyDelete"that the Tzanzer was ready to put him in Cherem"
How could the Sanzer put him in cherem another Rebbe when he davened shacris after Chatzois from time to time(I heard it from Klausenburger rov),or said by the Megila Vahi Bimei Amrufel and wouldn"t fix it(heard from reb Liebish) is it against the Shulchan Orech? or not?
Yosef 718
ReplyDeleteif a Jew builds a Suka and eats and drinks in the sukka with all the chumrahs but doesn't sleep in the Sukkah is in my eyes not considered a oiker, the Ramban means a oiker of the Mitzvah completley, you know and I know it. since you will not go down the hate band wagon you can argue that Kaviyochel the Rebbes chidush is not Oisgehalten, so he is a Toieh Bidvar Haloche, this doesn"t mean a oiker mitzva
Yosef 718
ReplyDeleteIts my assumption that your outlandish statement of kefira that you label Kedoishe Elyon, thru a Ramban that u are not getting,(eventough u made a baal teshuva with that ramban it was the kedushas haramban that did the peula not your logic)was probably the deterent for the Holy rebbes of Belz,Zhikov,Stitchin and Shendishev not to give a biur for their custom of not sleeping in Sukka,since it will fall into hands of Talmidim Sheloi Shimshi Kol Tzorchom, Truth has to be said that every body knows that their reason was not the cold weather ( which in matter of fact wasn't so cold in those times of the year in galicia)since the Belzer rov had a heated sukka and he didn"t sleep in Eretz Yiosroel neither, and the chasidim that were in the know disapproved the once thst dared to sleep in the sukka. the same is the ropshitzer family that Sukka was the shpitz mitzvah in Ropshitz. this was not made up by chabad apolegitics(BTW, would u label the Rebini Monoach,Rema and the Taz apolgetics too/)
Reb Yossef since you are in to ramban, how would you look on the Megilas Esther on the sefer hamitzvoth that is saying that Mitvas Yishuv Eretz is not valid today because of some fancy midrash in Shir Hashirim of the 3 shevouth, can we completely be mevatel a Deoraisa(according the Ramban)because of some midrash, Does it border with kefira?
or Reb Chaim Choen thst because of the danger the Mitzva is obselete,or even worse the Satmar Rov's claim that the Mechalei shabos are eliminating the mitzva, its even worse it gets even a swatch of Chu"l, is it all border with kefira according to the Ramban ? mmm
Perhaps, quite the contrary.. he's saying... "Oh, Dzikov, forget about what they do there!"
ReplyDeleteI am scratching my head to understand what Yosef and the others here want. Or according to Schneur I am trying to find vu di hunt iz bagruben.
ReplyDeleteBelz not sleeping in the Sukkah in Galicia is fine.
Belzer Yoshvim spilling the nach geshir on somebody who slleps in the Sukkah is fine.
Ropshitz and Tzhikov not sleeping in the Sukka is fine. Note: the reason for not sleeping was not because it was cold, but because: "Nu, sukkah"...!
Many many chassidim not eating in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, against Gemore and Halacha, is fine.
Chassidim not putting on Tfilin on Chol hamoed is fine.
Everything is fine, besides...
If the Lubavitcher Rebbe tries to explain the Minhag for those that are anyways not sleeping in the Sukka, that's a problem...
Are you nuts or what?
What was the Rebbe mevatel for all those chassidim (Chabad, Belz, Rophsitz, Dzihkov, and many more)? All he did was to say some lomdos. Still better then just eating kugel, not so?
Yosef 718
ReplyDeleteבית יוסף אורח חיים סימן לא אות ב ד"ה וחולו של
ועכשיו נהגו כל בני ספרד שלא להניחם בחול המועד ושמעתי שמקודם היו מניחים אותם בחול המועד כדברי הרא"ש ואח"כ מצאו שכתב רבי שמעון בר יוחי במאמר אחד שאסור להניחם בחול המועד ועל כן נמנעו מלהניחם בחול המועד
Does this border with Kefira to be oiker a Mitzvas Esseh for a "Fancy Zohar" even if the Rishonim tell you different,and u tell for all Klal Yisroel to stop doing the Mitzvah, Ribon Shel Olum I showed it to many to many talmidie chachomim they were awed from such a massive Akiras hamitzva, eventough they admire the Beis Yosef, I hope you don"t follow this Beis Yosef.
Read again what I wrote. I said others say that saying this is kefirah, and my observation is that that saying that a chasid is מצטער because he can't be like his Rebbe in מקיפין דבינה is at least not sufficient for me, or as others have pointed out it makes a mockery of this mitzvah.
ReplyDeleteI don't need to repeat again and again for me any limud zchus on minhag ha'olam even when weak is sufficient for me. So it is not about being lax on a mitzvah for reasons that some might not believe are not sincere, that is not the issue.
If the Shinover Rav (who was a stickler for halacha, and BTW was greatly respected by the Brisker Rav as a gaon) visited every shmini atzeres night his succah and no matter the weather - smelled the air and said; ahh si'iz kalt yoh? and everybody agreed; yes yes and returned home to make kiddush. Was it cold cold cold bone crunching cold?? I hardly believe so.
But the main point is that if he did say makifim de'binah says go home to make kiddush! all would be saying the same things on him too. Again, in my opinion, it was the actual 'justification' text of the Rebbe that created this continuing storm.
My own theory is, that we say things in half jest בגדר מילתא דבדוחתא and it should have been accepted in this way, and if the Rebbe added to the shmues, the Chasid's המצטער in the spirit of שמחה and a flourish of בדוחתא of course nothing would have come of it. But once it was published without the proper 'wink wink' it was impossible to back-track or put into context, and now the lubs feel he had/has to be defended to the death.
Just a story: I had a friend who 35 years ago learned in Amshinov in Yerushalayim by the present Rebbe's father. He is today a Rosh Yeshiva.
One night one litvish misnaged was railing against Satmar Rav for coming to Yerushalayim and davening late. For a sample of leshoines just read the comments here. The Amshenover Rebbe came out of his room opened up a Rambam and stunned the bocherim.
At the moment I don't have to time to get the exact quote. But the Ramban says if a leader or a navi gets up and is mevatel one mitzva then he is a navi sheker. But if he is oiver on a mitzva לפי שעה or he does so privately without declaring that the mitzva is batel. We must be dan the person lekav zchus; that he must have his reasons for doing so. So the Amshinover Rebbe said that as long as the Satmar Rebbe doesn't get up and say zman tefilah is botel, we are obligated to assume that he has his reasons for it!
This is very close to what the Ranban says. And I don't know what else to add to you guys who refuse to absorb this point.
To prove my point; The sofer of Satmar Rav told a story; that he once fixed his tefilin and then asked the Rebbe what time should he return the tefilin for the next morning. The Rebbe said; 7am! He looked puzzled and asked "but the Rebbe won't daven till late after noon"
The Rebbe responded in agitation: "Every morning I get up with the intention to daven by zman tefilah, if for whatever reasons I can't get ready that doesn't mean that I give up trying every day! so I need my tefilin at the crack of morning."
Another aside:
Satmar Rebbe was surrounded with "no-people" who always argued and cautioned him not to publish things. It happened during the publication of both Va'Yoel Moshe, and "al hageula" The edition of R. Yosef Ashkenazi clearly records a few of these arguments.
This of course was not the case in Chabad and as a result, many of the rough edges a person who spoke for 1000s of hours are there for all to see.
Yosef 718
Is Bitul Tefilin of the Beis yosef on Chol Hamoed לפי שעה? Is making the same excuse for Shemini Atzeres on a annual basis for the last 200 years לפי שעה? well I don"t think so.The Lubavicher Rebbe doesn"t need Brisker Rov to vouch for his being the Ish Halocha,Bottomline Its all your hangover,in my eyes and in the eyes of many Talmidie Chachomim Chasishe Yidden that are boki in Arba Chelkai Shulchan orech that eat and breathe toras hashem knoe all the Pri Megodims and all the Ketzoisen, a rebbe that gives a lomdishe answer that tries to match the shulchan orech is on a higer standing, then Rebbes that ignored it completely, despite your fancy Ramban.As an aside,I would off bring the Chasam Sofer in end of Yoreh Deia that every word in Chazal is as cardinal as the 13 principles.
ReplyDeleteYosef 718
ReplyDelete"This of course was not the case in Chabad and as a result, many of the rough edges a person who spoke for 1000s of hours are there for all to see"
I know that you and your ilk would like to create label of Cult figure on the Rebbe.
But the fact is that the Rebbe was challenged on all of his sichos in hundreds of letters that he received personally, and even created a official channel for that with all the inner Chabad Kovtzim, that he was answering many times on the shailos that people were asking, its all documented with no need for a Badchan that has to create lies on a annual basis.How many letters did you see from Satmar Rov to respond for people that asked him on his works? Whenever he was challenged he blew up beyond control with epithets of Kofer etc.. who wanted to go thru that wrath. I saw lately that Satmar in Benai Berak printed a Shmuess he had with Reb Yakov Kamenitzky that no body answered him on his sefer, Reb Yankev answered him that nobody wants to start since you are a apikores only for asking.
Yosef 718
ReplyDelete"But the main point is that if he did say makifim de'binah says go home to make kiddush! all would be saying the same things on him too"
Didn't your other Rebbe the Ish Halacha the holy Munkatcher Rov quote and rely in his teshuvah on not eating in Suka on Shemini Atzeres a fancy Kabala Sefer Mikroe Kodesh? Maybe I am mistaking, I am not near seforim now
So it seems that when one learns the Rebbe's sicha, there is a "litvishe pirush rashi" to understand its true meaning that goes along. Unfortunately, this pirush is not printed in my edition, and I did not hear about from my teachers, so I must have misunderstood. Nowhere in the sicha does it say "minhag Chabad" is not to sleep in the sukkah, and nowhere does it suggest that klal yisroel should stop doing so. But the Litvishe velt was mekabel the Rebbe's explanation together with the Torah Shebaal Peh that there are yesodos of "akirah" and "bitul" going on here, although not apparent to the naked eye. (Some, it seems, don't even know the sicha exists, and think the only time the Rebbe ever addressed the issue was with Rabbi Kahana at dollars.)
ReplyDeleteSo: 1) Makifin DeBinah was the loshon of the Mitteler Rebbe, not the Rebbe. The MR heard that people were sleeping in the Sukkah, and wanted to stop them from doing so, using this reason. 2) The question the sicha addresses is why, although he was machmir and even went lifnim mishuras hadin in other matters, the Frierdiker Rebbe did not sleep in the Sukkah, and what is the justification of those Chassidim who follow suit. This is the same issue the poskim address. Nobody said "You don't have to/shouldn't for this reason". There are many areas of halachah where poskim try to be MELAMED ZECHUS on those who customarily don't follow the apparent halachah. 3) The Rebbe wrote in a letter to someone (printed in Igros Kodesh) that those who don't feel that way certainly should sleep in the sukkah. 4) "Makifin DeBinah" wasn't the halachic justification; aderabeh, that was the question - how does it shtim with halachah? The Rebbe's answer was mitztaer. The difference between what the Rebbe said and what the poskim say is only in the source of the tzaar, but the justification is the same. Tzaar being a subjective matter, I don't see how someone could say "you don't have tzaar, stay in the sukkah". 5) The post under discussion actually illustrates just this point: that (other) Chassidim were opposed to sleeping in the sukka because of its kedushah, not due to cold, loneliness, etc. Evidently those who went to sleep were comfortable enough to fall asleep.
How this was misconstrued into the Rebbe announcing that it is wrong to sleep in a Sukkah is beyond me, probably because I don't have the Litvishe kabbalah on the matter.
As far as the practice of the Rebbes of Chabad, the Rebbe told Rabbi Kahana that going back to the Alter Rebbe, none of them slept in the Sukkah. Knowing the reverence the Rebbes had for their predecessors, it is hard to imagine that the Tzemach Tzedek, for example, would sleep in the sukkah, and his son the Rebbe Maharash would not bend over backwards to do the same, and so on.
When Rabbi Kahana came to the Rebbe, it was clear to everyone that the source of the question was not innocent. It didn't take a Rebbe to figure it out. Having already addressed the question years before at a Farbrengen, having a team of writers rework the sicha and add footnotes, looking over the newly-formatted sicha and adding his own marei-mekomos and heoros, and having it printed up and widely distributed (including outside Lubavitch), the question was clearly antagonistic. The Rebbe apologized to Rabbi Kahana several times over the course of the conversation, assuring him that he was not upset at him, but rather at those who put him up to it, who instead of focusing on the crises in modern Jewish life, were instead trying to get the Rebbe's goat. Does anybody think that at this point the Rebbe should have taken the question seriously? Can you really fault the Rebbe for blaming the question on sinas chinam, and for chewing out the questioners? I think the biggest disrespect here was shown to Rabbi Kahana, who apparently innocently was put up to asking a loaded question. Way to treat an old rabbi.
Chabadnik,
ReplyDeleteRabbi Kahane's visit to the rebbe came after years that the sukka sicha was chewed over by the misnagdim many times in every shape or form in Kuntreisim, Yated, in Maran's infamous speech in binyoinie heuma by the creation the "Kat Degel Hatorah" where he made Chabad in to Menaschei Yain. It wasn"t a innocent question on a crispy sunday morning.
Yosef 718
ReplyDeleteYou have made your point very well and we don't really disagree.You just pointed out that no other group even if they did not sleep in the Sukka came up with some kind of kabbalistic justification
I don't have enough time but I brought out the nekideh of "mitstaer" that the Rebbe said in the Sicha and unfortunately it makes no sense.
So to repeat for the well intentioned Lubavitcher on this blog:The reason the sukka issue and the Sicha about it does not become quiet is not because Chabad don't sleep in the sukka, for which there are halachik grounds, ve'ayin bemeforshei Hashulchon Oruch for the reasons.It's because never before did anyone try and be oiker a mitva with kuf nun taamim and was not called on it.
"If the Lubavitcher Rebbe tries to explain the Minhag for those that are anyways not sleeping in the Sukka, that's a problem..."
ReplyDeleteBS, now, since the Rebbe said it, no one ever sleeps in the Succah.
Regarding Kahane: best part of the video is when he taps the Rebbe to get his attention. that was already after they stopped touching the Rebbe - cool.
Rebbe said it was from the Mittile Rebbe, whatever.
One thing about the clip bothered me: why did the Rebbe ramble about the money in the bank in NY and conspiracy theories?
Do non-Lubabs also think that the __ controlled the fight of Reb Chaim Volozhiner?
Why does the Rebbe go back and forth from calling him Reb "Itzleh" Vol. to Reb "Yitzchok"?
The Rebbe said that there are thousands of kids who don't know from Shema Yisroel but a yid in CH doesn't sleep in the succah and that bothers them! NO, not the Rebbbe, he didn't sleep on Sucath, it was cuz he propogated and promulgated this practice amongst his followers. Guy just starting to keep Shabbos has all the Chabad parepehinlia shoved in his face- how the Rebbe's grave is the Western wall and on one's birthdy he/she should "envision" the Rebbe's face from a yechidus (not if you met Rebbe in street)and told beware of sleeping in the Succah before he knows how to read Hebrew!
Anon 6:03, I was being dan lekaf zechus. I don't know the good rabbi, and he may have been out of politics. boruch, to paraphrase you, "I brought out the nekudah of being oiker a mitzvah makes no sense". I still don't get it. (Maybe I'm dense from too much Tanya.) When poskim defend not sleeping in the Sukkah, that's a limud zechus; when the Rebbe does it, it's an akira? The Rebbe gave a KABBALISTIC justification? You may not agree with his sevoro, but it wasn't kabbalistic, it was based on nigleh. Why did the Rebbe discuss sleeping in the Sukkah in the first place? I wasn't around, but it makes sense that misnagdim were already reitzen un about it before the Rebbe said anything.
ReplyDeleteYosef 718 -
ReplyDeleteCan you please tell me where you saw the Shumussen between the Satmar Rebbe and Ha-Rav Kamenitsky about no one answering his sefer?
thanks in advance.
Boruch.
ReplyDeleteare you the certified lamdan that can disapprove a shtikel lmodus of the Rebbe? what are your credential exactly? if you think you are then your are Schmo just for thinking that way,the subject will not stop until the Kelipa of hastoras elokus will go on, Rav Shach had his mind made up before the sicha of Sukka. He is a misnaged for all chasidim as Eliach is great Talmud will testify.
Mottel,
ReplyDelete"why did the Rebbe ramble about the money in the bank in NY and conspiracy theories?"
are you really definite its a conspiracy ?did you have all info on every dealing that happened on funds for Jewish schools in Israel,Morrocco, Toronto Mexico etc.. did you get a detailed update on a daily basis,Maybe you were connected with Sherer? I didn"t know that Hirshel has the real prestigious universal askonim on hid blog.
This sukka discussion is hilarious esp the comments by poeple who don't get it. Kahana was set up by the Belzer who wanted to know how the Rebbe would respond if asked directly this question. Since belz doesn't sleep in the sukka, and 2 yrs earlier he signed up with degel bec of his fallout with ger, he set up kahana to be his fall guy. The Belzer is a master tactitian and he found someone who would be brainless enough to actually ask the Rebbe this. The next day the video arrived in EY, and he watched it carefully. I heard from a belzer insider that he found it very amusing. At the end the Belzer's question remained unanswered that Sunday.
ReplyDeleteI've verified these facts with some people who know the inside scoop in belz.
For one who sits on the sidelines in this great Sukkah debate, I am very tzi'friden about the wide range of estoerica this uncovered. On the one hand, its all קרוב הדבר ליהות נערישקייט , and on the other, with this kind of intensity, and devotion to the most minute minuteia (sp?) , I am heartened to think "זאת התורה לא תשתכח"
ReplyDeleteKeep the cards and letters coming, folks, and Tzig, keep up the פראוואקאציא, it seems to bring out the most chi'kav in everybody, stuff you don't get anywhere else on the Net.
Tzig, you know why I'm being חונף you, now deliver the goods.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteyour skill in fiction is not bad, go spend it on writing a good novel, maybe simon &schuster will buy it from you, if not them, then artscroll will give you a few shekels.
hayaim yaim
ReplyDeletelamed nisan
hisvaadus disuda shlishis ......tzrichim lehiskayem bibeis hakneses.....
did you?
"How this was misconstrued into the Rebbe announcing that it is wrong to sleep in a Sukkah is beyond me"
ReplyDeleteSo we can assume that the average Shliach tells his (ignorant) followers to sleep in the Sukkah. Becuase the Rebbe never said not to. BTW, do you want to buy a bridge I have to sell?
The shluchim in my neighborhood never said not to sleep in the sukkah...
ReplyDelete"So we can assume that the average Shliach tells his (ignorant) followers to sleep in the Sukkah."
ReplyDeleteYew Betcha! Just after insisting that they immediately start using at least 2 sets of tefillin because one may be "just straps".
Yosef 718
ReplyDeleteJust saw in Rav Harfeness sefer Mikdash yisroel that its famous that in Pelonch the Sarmar Rovs inlaws didn"t give a bed to sleep in the sukka so he slept on a bench and the in laws ridiculed him , How come he didn"t divorce a Rebbetzin that comes from a family of Oikrie Mitzvahs, that is absolute heresy according the Ramban?
So for the proper answer we need your lomdus that the Peloncer in laws didn"t write a teshuva about it as the oiker from 770, they were stam Lietzim
Yosef 718
ReplyDeleteI think you will not see this post since its long outdated with no traffic, but its important to note a Mitzvas Esse that is being sidelined because of Kabala with no nNigla undertones as the Biur of Hagoan Eloki Milubavich., that is the Reshash(sharabi)saying that on Sefira and from Rosh Hashana to Shemini Atzeres no Shiluach Hakan should be done even tough according to many Achronim its a mitzva Chiuvis, look in Shut CS OC regarding the Chavas Yair that every Shabbos is not the time for Shiluach Hakan because of a Zohar.
I guess you will have to fit it in with your finding of the Ramban al hatorah,it is even worse then the sukka issue since the whole mitzva is eliminated for months and months.
From reading the brawl, I really think a lot of you would benefit from stepping out of your isolated world of books.
ReplyDeleteThe planet has evolved quiet a bit over the past three years and today we humans tend to treat each other with respect. In today's age we don't put down other people and their beliefs, no matter what they are.
I couldn't care less if somebody does or doesn't sleep in a suka or weather or not he wears pajamas. Evolve, people.