When it comes to RSFM it's no secret that he was more "noyteh" to Chassidim, yet he's seen as a very universal, unifying figure to all sides - if they are sides at all. We see him as a figure that was only interested in building Torah and those who will live by it. Scratching a bit beneath the surface will tell you that he tried to fuse the Litvishe learning and the Chassidishe derech when it came to Avodas Hashem - that too was pretty much common knowledge. We saw it in how he pushed his talmidim to visit and learn from the Chassidishe Rebbes of that time, like the Modzitzer Rebbe and the Klausenberger, Satmarer and Lubavitcher Rabbeyim. And of course, how can we forget? his Tanya shiurim and lebedige tentz and vareme nigunim. But this reshimoh seems to go a bit further, making distinctions not unlike what we would see from the Frierdige Rebbe, where clear distinctions are made between Chassidus and contemporary mussar and that derech. And what may surprise you the most is that words came from a talmid of the Arugas HaBosem and Unsdorf, not some sharfe chossid who was raised on knocking misnagdim and mussar.
Yaser keyach for this important post, exposing Mr. Mendlowitz's true thinking for what it was.
ReplyDeleteJust like what is stated in the introduction, where he is called meyased YTV, is sheker (the Yeshive existed before him, he only was involved with creating the mesivta some years later), so too are certain things in the reshima sheker and slanderous.
I have on very good authority a story that was told by a Litvak who is now in the aylem hoemes, that he went to YTV at one time (I guess it may have been in the late 1920's - early 30's) and was interested in attending YTV. Mr. Mendlowitz made some remark to him along the lines of you are a Litvak and this is not the place for you (he learned by R. Mayshe Feinstein, Yeshive R. Yitzchok Elchonon and elsewhere).
Mr. Mendlowitz did come from Hassidishe opshtam by the way.
Another thought is that YTV was facing competition from arch-Litvish Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, whose meyased RDL zt"l had clashed with Mr. Mendlowitz at YTV. So maybe he was looking to put down snags when he wrote it.
YTV is a shatnez, a so-called combination of Litvish and Hassidish. But the fact is that daven Hassidishe nusach, so that shows what they really are.
The Arugas Habosem was a fierdige chosid, he had the chasidic heat more then old timer chasidim since he did the switch from A Real Ashkenazic heritage to a semi Rebbe, As the Rokeach writes "Ein Chasidus Kechasadus Bitcholuso"
ReplyDeleteSnag
ReplyDeletePlease don"t start degrading a gentleman like Mr.Mendlowitz(it is the way he liked to be addressed) because of your fardrekkte Snag views.
Sheesh. It looks like he was exposed to some mussor by somebody. It wasn't some mashpiyah spouting drivel and soundbites. BTW, even by RSFM, there is no evidence (at least from this) that he understood mussor; he admitted himself that he didn't understand Reb Yeruchem's shmuezen.
ReplyDeleteright
ReplyDeletenot like so 90 year old Rosh Yeshiva spouting soundbites is what you mean
so RSF understood Tanya enough to give shiurim, but not Reb Yeruchem?! Huh???
Maybe he had a Rebbe in Tanya or maybe he was exposed to it in his youth so it was easier to inculcate. Also, maybe his Tanya shiurim were on an elementary level, only given to buchorim with little background - who knows.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, it is always easier to understand the older and classical seforim, (at least on a superficial level) than to understand current shmuezen/seforim, that go directly to the pniymiyus.
Anon,
ReplyDelete"he admitted himself that he didn't understand Reb Yeruchem's shmuezen."
I dont think that a guy with a half a brain has a hardship to understand Reb Yeruchem
RSFM was referring to DC'M.
ReplyDeleteWhich shmuez did you ever learn in DCM, if any?
“When it comes to RSFM it's no secret that he was more "noyteh" to Chassidim”
ReplyDeleteMy grandfather was from the VERY early Talmidim of TV Mesivta. When he came back from learning Europe, he returned to TV until he got a Shtela somewhere else. He was VERY surprised at the new RSFM of his return, pushing (at least partially) Chassidus. Said in his days it didn’t exist. Not a word of Chassidus was heard in his days in TV!BTW, this grandfather himself was from a Galicanier upbringing, (and Rebbish Enikel to boot) although he became a 100% Litvak in Europe. But before we make RSFM into so super Chosid, remember that he threw the early Malochim out of TV for being TV. Truthfully, RSFM probably wanted a syntaisis closer to Rav Hutner
Funny that "snag" calls Reb Shraga Feivel "Mr. Mendelowitz" in an seeming attempt to deride him, whereas Rab Shraga Feivel actually insisted on being called "Mr."
ReplyDeleteIt's funny that "snag" attempts to deride someone with something that is actually to his praise; his humility in insisting that he not be called Rabbi, when everyone who has to do with a Yeshiva is generally addressed "Rabbi."
Snag said:
ReplyDelete"(he learned by R. Mayshe Feinstein, Yeshive R. Yitzchok Elchonon and elsewhere)."
Do you mean Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary aka RIETS aka YU?
I find it funny how YUers who are Chareidi wannabes try to hide their YUness by saying they learned in "Yeshivas Rabbeinu Yitzchak Elchanan," hoping no one Chareidi will be aware that that's YU!
For those who didn't get it when I posted earlier, I took the liberty of writing Mr. Mendlowitz, precisely because I was aware that he requested to be called that way.
ReplyDeleteMr. Mendlowitz was more choshuv then people who give themselves ongeblozene titlen on websites, וד"ל.
For the YTV 'Chassidim' out there, here is an interesting video with some historical footage, including images of Mr. Mendlowitz, promoting YTV.
http://www.vimeo.com/2522080
Snag said:
ReplyDelete"he is called meyased YTV, is sheker (the Yeshive existed before him, he only was involved with creating the mesivta some years later)"
You had better do some more fact-checking. Reb Shraga Feivel was definitely not "only... involved with creating the mesivta some years later"
He lead and was involved with the Yeshiva from its early years. If you want to argue that the term "meyasid" means the people who actually opened YTV, you are correct, but meyasid is often loosely used to mean the person who built-up the moisid, which Reb Shraga Feivel definitely and undisputedly did.
http://www.vimeo.com/2522080
ReplyDeleteSnag, thanks for the video.
I love how Rav Quinn quotes the exact date he joined Torah Vodaath!
I'm not done watching.
"You had better do some more fact-checking. Reb Shraga Feivel was definitely not "only... involved with creating the mesivta some years later"
ReplyDeleteדער רעב -
A grayse yaser keyach for twisting my words again. How much do I owe you for the pretzels?
Un a grayse yaser keyach for your 'pshetl' on the meaning of the word meyased. So I guess we can now say that the seventh Rebbe was the meyased of Lubavitch. Gevaldig!
R'Shraga Feivel was and individualist who sought to take the good things from wherever he could find them.I remember reading that he refused by his wedding beshum oifen to wear a shtreimel.
ReplyDeleteFwiw, unfortunately, Torah Vodaas has not been succesful for many years.
Apparently this synthesis, chasidus, college and Litvish/yeshvish does not work.Lakewood BMG, with over 5 thousand talmidim bli ayin horah, makes themselves very clear:Learning is bderech Litvish, peoples personal minhogim, levish etc interests nobody and it's against college etc.The path is clear.Torah Vodaas cannot make their minds up, therefore they are not doing very well
Twistleton,
ReplyDeleteSo all that is written in the Shlucha Derabonan is false? or from later years?
the people that are quoted their are of the age of 85, was your grandpa older?
Shimon,
ReplyDeletewhy did Telz Cleveland close down? they couldnt decide on hashkafa? or which sandwiches to serve?
why did Reb moshe never make it with his Yeshiva in the Lower East Side?
your theory is full of holes,Maybe the fight of Ungarischer,Schor, Kametzky, had some thing to do with its downfall, think about it, look what is happening to Ponovezh.
דער רעב
ReplyDelete"I find it funny how YUers who are Chareidi wannabes try to hide their YUness by saying they learned in "Yeshivas Rabbeinu Yitzchak Elchanan," hoping no one Chareidi will be aware that that's YU!"
Those who know the facts know the facts.
Those who know history know that Yeshivas Rabbeinu Yitzchok Elchonon preceded Yeshiva University and Yeshiva College.
When Rav Avigdor Miller, Rav Mayshe Bick, Rav Mordechai Gifter, and the man in the above story learned there, there was no Yeshiva University as it is today in existence.
Tzveitens, there are different divisions there. Yeshivas Rabbeinu Yitzchok Elchonon (RYE's father was a Hassid by the way, as discussed here in the past, the present Rosh Hayshiva there, R. Dr. Lamm, is a Chassidishe Yid, and Hassidism is taught there, FYI) is connected to YU, a division, but is not exactly the same as it.
Snag
ReplyDeleteI am no YUnik, but there is a nice crowd there learning toras hashen with real intensity,probably no different then the era of Reb Moshe Bick,
BTW, Did Rav Gifter learn by Reb Moshe Soloviechig? or by the son? or even earlier?
Snag said:
ReplyDelete"RYE's father was a Hassid by the way, as discussed here in the past"
RIETS had nothing to do with R' Yitchok Elchanan other than that it was named in honor of him.
"R. Dr. Lamm, is a Chassidishe Yid"
Is that supposed to be a joke?!
"is connected to YU, a division, but is not exactly the same as it."
The division was made purely for economical reasons, i.e. funding and so forth. Look at YU's (traditional) logo/shield.
דער רעב
ReplyDeleteRabbi Dr. Lamm is a Chassidishe Yid, not a joke (as an aside, he is a graduate of YTV, by the way, as is Rabbi Dr. Jacob J. Schachter). He is a descendant of Belzer on his father's side, and on his mother's side from a Rabbinic family close to Sanz. He has written and spoken extensively about Hassidism.
In YU today there is also a Rosh Yeshiva by name of R. Hershel Reichman who preaches Hassidism. Every Thursday he has a haburah in Hassidism followed by music and rikud. He is also of Hassidic descent.
Prominent Hassidic leaders have spoken there in recent years as well.
Snag
ReplyDeletehe printed a sefer from some Baumel, was that his ziede ? was he chassidic?
Yes, his zeide, R. Yeshoshua Baumel z"l, was a Galicianer talmid chochom, who came to America after WWI and was a Rav in Williamsburg, Cong. Adas Yeshurun I think it was. There is historical info in that sefer, ayen shom. There is even a teshuvah there, (perhaps several), to a young Nachum Lamm related to fingerprints, as I recall.
ReplyDeleteHebrewbooks has the sefer.
Rabbi Dr. Lamm is a Chassidishe Yid, not a joke (as an aside, he is a graduate of YTV, by the way, as is Rabbi Dr. Jacob J. Schachter). He is a descendant of Belzer on his father's side, and on his mother's side from a Rabbinic family close to Sanz. He has written and spoken extensively about Hassidism."
ReplyDeleteI'm not quite sure what chassidishe yid means to you, but as far as what most normal people would consider a chassidishe yid, R' Dr. vechulu Lamm is far from it. Chassidishe yichus and "speaking extensively about Hassidism" does not a chossid make!
Snag, Rav Avigdor Miller received a bachelors degree in history from YU. I don't know what the other two rabbonim majored in.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSnag, Rav Avigdor Miller received a bachelors degree in history from YU. I don't know what the other two rabbonim majored in."
Are you sure about that re R. Miller?
It was different in those days. Nireh li that at that time one could just learn Tayreh there without limudei chayl.
דער רב
ReplyDelete"I'm not quite sure what chassidishe yid means to you, but as far as what most normal people would consider a chassidishe yid, R' Dr. vechulu Lamm is far from it. Chassidishe yichus and "speaking extensively about Hassidism" does not a chossid make!"
ער קאכט זיך אין חסידות. ער איז א שטאלצער חסידישער איד
"your theory is full of holes,Maybe the fight of Ungarischer,Schor, Kametzky, had some thing to do with its downfall, think about it, look what is happening to Ponovezh."
ReplyDeletePonovitch is actually doing very well.Both yeshivas.Machloikes is terrible and maybe it had something to do with Tora Vodaas's matzav.But , remember it was years ago, and TV is still not doing very well.
Btw , a lot of the machloikes was also because TV could not decide what they wanted to be.
Telz,Cleveland became outdated as the Roshei Yeshiva became older and could not understand andrelate to the younger generation.Despite having world class magidei shiur, like R'Pesach Stein z"l, what a wonderful magid shiur he was!.
Additionally,Cleveland is far....
Lakewood has really blossomed, despite what naysayers may say,Lakewood is the Ihr Hatorah, for all walks of Jewish life
Where was this shtikel printed
ReplyDeleteHatzlocha
Der Ruv
ReplyDeleteU don"t know rav lamms avodas hatefila, U don"t know his eating habits, He has no beard, by a lot of chassidim it was not a pillar of their chasidic cutom , In breslov you had alot chosheve chasidim that were shaved. I am not talking about his Hashkofa of running Yu when he was the president there.
Shimon
ReplyDelete"Ponovitch is actually doing very well"
this is not the venue to discuss the litvish yeshiva world, but Ponovich is not doing well it does not attract the finest of the yeshiva world as it did for the 4 decades, the chairs are full but different stock.
the staff of Lakewood or Philly are not more sophisticated then the Telzer staff, It is the Gifter son pushing out a guy like a talmid chochem as Rav Sorotzkin that Killed the Yeshiva, he won the property with no souls
Shimon
ReplyDelete",Lakewood is the Ihr Hatorah, for all walks of Jewish life"
please don" forget to give a plug for its fine eateries, I am impressed by them
anon 12:10, he does have a beard. haven't u ever even seen him?
ReplyDelete"Der Ruv
ReplyDeleteU don"t know rav lamms avodas hatefila, U don"t know his eating habits, He has no beard, by a lot of chassidim it was not a pillar of their chasidic cutom , In breslov you had alot chosheve chasidim that were shaved. I am not talking about his Hashkofa of running Yu when he was the president there."
Okay, you have convinced me, I now see the error of my thinking. Lamm is the epitome of a chassidishe yid. I'm going to immediately adopt his dress, customs, and way of life. In fact I'll even go out and get myself a PHD in something so i can emulate this perfect chossid.
As a matter of fact from now on consider me a "Lammer Chussid."
Sheesh! Happy now?!
dovy in jersey said...
ReplyDeleteanon 12:10, he does have a beard. haven't u ever even seen him?
Yes, He has a thick goatee; further proof that the people talking about him don't even know who he is, and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Seems to be very common here, people arguing when they have no clue what they are talking about.
Anon 12:16
ReplyDeleteTelz Cleveland has not being doing well for many years, even when R'Pesach Stein and Rav Gifter where alive.
Telzs' heyday was the fifties and sixties.
The current machloikeh was a fight over a dead yeshiva unfortunately.
Ponovitch still has top boys in both yeshivas and it's packed
Lakewood does not need to be plugged
נלע"ד that the decline of Telshe Cleveland is related to the growth in people going to Eretz Yisroel to learn instead, esp. after milchemes sheishes hayomim, and the growth of cheap and easy travel by jet in recent decades.
ReplyDeleteNot to say that there isn't more to it, but lichayreh that is a significant factor.
Cleveland (the place/city) itself declined greatly around the same period as well.