I read it last night. It shows much research and leg work. While it lacks a sense of order it has many interesting facts and details.I think if it was rewritten in an orderly fashion and with a bit of analysis it would be an impt contribution to the subject. Some of the photos are also interesting. Note the details of an interview that the Rayaatz gave in Detroit in 1929 and compare what he says with the state of Lubavitch today. The story about the so called Koshnitzer rebbe Reb Twwrski halevi, I heard mipi REb Dovid of Skver=BP years ago. Wow ! old time phonies were also great men, look at this man's sefer its male vegdush in Sisre teyre.
Shneur as the Maagid Mieshorim of modern day Chabad, you don't forget to put in your 2 cents of Divrie Kivushuin for Chabad. Its about time that all the Mashpiem, Mazkirem and the cursed out fund raisers, from the US and abroad should take the Subway from Crown Heights to the alte chosid of Washington Heights and get a lecture on the Hanoge for more Penimius and less of the cursed out PR, and stop ignoring the FR.
to bring history facts from skver write a novel instead, skver has no history, they have zero printed information from prior WW1, all there stuff was fabricated here in america, please point out how many of the skver chassidim have their roots to skver or ussr.
a skver to write about the rayatz is a joke, its so biased, they hated lubavitch because of the bal shem tov's siddur, vd"l.
on the other side of the coin you got belz, this tiny swampy muddy road village did indeed have a glory history, but belz of today is twisting and rewriting their own past, therefor read only the published material prior 1960 or pre WW2 to be on the safeside.
bobov never touched any history the way it was thats the way it was printed, the bobov rebbi is/was very makpid on it. bobov (many might not know)helped to build a lot of yiddishkeit in america before WW2.
Oy Bobov; you never fail to crack me up. I think you should save all your wisdom all year long, and tell it all after the conclusion of the Seder on Pesach, לקיים מנהג ראפשיץ which was adopted in Bobov. והמ"י.
Come to think of it, it seems you imbibe on Harbeh Cases Ya"SH (צ"ו) a/o a lilkeh full o hash, before you spew your 'knowledge' לחיים!
Bobov In the article they almost dont talk about Skver, I see the power of Reb Yakov Yossef Skverer by being able to create a foreign Russian chassidus with total new blood of Hungarian Jews. That is a plus to his personality, not the opposite. He built up Skver to stronger that it was ever.All the Minhogim were never the minhogim of the flock that belonged to skver in the ukraine,I saw the Skverer Rebbe himself admitting to it. Besides Tehilim Shabos Morning. Today you have a couple of thousand people breathing this Minhogim.
Bobov Chusid "because of the bal shem tov's siddur, vd"l." the Rachmistrivker Rebbe of BP, told to many people that his FIL had no grudge on the Rayatz about the Siddur, it was in the hand of one of their chasidim and he sold it to the Rayatz, and we had no money.He would like to have it but he could not get the funds.
No one ever answered this question from anonymous. I too would be interested to find out what everyone thinks of this article? who is the Makova Rav by the way? Russian Chusid whats your view on the Makever Ruvs interview in Hamodia on Chasidus? Did you have a opurtunity to read it?
Anonymous. Did I write the article ? Did I put it on this site ? Did I give the interview in Detroit in 1929 about the nature of American Jews ? Do I want to meet your chashuve fund raisers ? (I don't have enough money for these people) Do I demand that anyone meet me , do I run around the streets asking latinos if they are Chaabd chassidm and they need to accept the 6th Rebbe ? and wishing them a good day if they are not As far as mazkirim maybe , I"ll let Aleksei do my driving.Would I ask anyone to travel on the subway from CH to WH ? It may not be as safe as CH is these days... But Sir this is a free country and when your 6th Rebbe from whom the 7th rebbe's power flowed says something, and I just point it out, all you can do is atack me in your letzonos , I think this is what Chazal meant by Rabbam dakru.... Don't you think that if the 6th rebbe said something it is at least worth thinking about ? It seems to me that outside of Cuba , North korea and Outer Mongolia the only place the thought police are still fast at work in CH and the many in the movement although I am gratified to have met many many young Anash in the last 5 years who have brains and are using them to think about the events of the last 50 years and the future without being in complete denial. The only discussion some in CH understand is personal name calling , I thought Chabad was the intellectual Chassiduth , a movement of ideas and thought. All that said perhaps the hardcore in CH should think of a merger with the big shots in New Square , you share much except CH has a much much more effective PR machine... I keep on trying to like and support Lubavitch , but I also keep on meeting closed minded people who seem to dominate this movemetn.
Schneur "Do I want to meet your chashuve fund raisers ? (I don't have enough money for these people)" You are not getting it, the fund raisers would like to get back to the good old days of Old Chabad and stop fundraising. It is the opposite, they will pay you to inspire them
Schneur "the only place the thought police are still fast at work in CH " you forgot to list New square. Do the CH revolutionary guards burn down houses in CH too?
Schneur "you share much except CH has a much much more effective PR machine..." So you admit that the image of CH is in good hands with a fine PR firm? Yesterday there was a meeting in the smoke filled 770 basement that maybe we should drop the PR firm, but on your word I will tell them not to change. Obviously the PR group could not influence you, since the Alte Chosid knows well the real "Intellectual open Minded Chabad" from the early days of reb Borech of Selish
Anonymous. I am not on the war path with Chabad and refuse to compare Lubavitch a community of serious middle class well educated people with the situation in New Square. All I am saying is that Ch people take any criticism as it was meant to destroy ad charmah ,, in fact its meant to draw attention ansd stimulate discussion.Thus while we may disagree on specifics and even larger concepts lets keep the response civil.
there are 18 comments and only one person "Shneur" is talking מענין לענין באותו ענין that shows that he's the real חבד'סקער a person that his מוח is pure and רעדט צו דערזאך.
He has read the article and said his opinion. Bobov for some reason has a stupid agenda he hasn't read it but saw that it has something with skver so he's already pissed off.
I printed it out and I can tell you that this guy did a master piece, a true historian without trying to convince anyone.
Drop the PR firm - That is atzmus and mehus of Lubavitch of today if you drop the PR , whats left of Lubavitch, Basil, tamborines, and a ten dozen law suits. ? With unemployment these days at sky high rates , why would Aguch want to add to the rolls ? In order to win me over , you have to hire someone more serious like perhaps Howard Rubinstein , wait he probably already works for Shabad. Baruch hashem I have met many Chabad bachurim and yungeleit who want to hear an objective assesment of their movement and its history. I am sure there are hundreds more who are tired of Pravda and Izveztsia and Radio Moscow and want to hear the truth. they are not ready to abandon Chabad, but realize they live in the 21st century and want to see things from an objective manner and make their choices accordingly , rather than get their information in Beth Pravda. Both Skver and Lubavitch will not be able to withstand the Internet, and modern technology in delivering an objective portrayal of their movements and leaders. In days of yore a trip to a library in Manhatan was necessary to read a different view , today a click of the mouse takes you there. If I had $25 for every Lubavitcher who has contacted me about BSG and a different view of things, I would be a wealthy man. These people are chassidim of the Rebbe and have no interest in leaving , but their brains are working and they wish to hear and understand different opinions and views. Such people will only grow in numbers in CH in the future.
I would love to talk about the article about Chassiidm in America before 1939, about the Rabbayeim here their life style , did they accomplish anything , what they left us, the chassidic rabbonim Rav Feder mentions, the Jews in Denver, the Nusach Ari shullen throughout the uSA, the Mlochim , the chashuve shtiblech Nine un Ninziger, cannon St. Peylishe shtibel in Williamsburg the problems , visiting rebbes (Vishever rav etc) but no one is interested in such a discussion here .
I would love to hear what you have to say about the Malochim , the chashuve shtiblech, Nine un Ninziger, Cannon St. Polishe shtibel in Williamsburg and the LES. The malochim were discussed on the internet years ago and the broad facts are understood,it's the details, the color that is missing. The Nein un Ninziger had I believe unemployed rebbishe eyniklech davening there. The only one I remember was the Gorlitzer,and he was unfortunately not destinied for greatness.
I should add that I learn from all your comments, and don't let the kibbitzers here or elsewhere intimidate you. There is a loyal following out there of ordinary people with an almost unlimited appetite for the material you are offering.
Who is Reb Duvid Mordechai of Tolne that used to write in Morgen Journal? How is he related to the old Tolner of Yerushaliem? Who is the other writer that Feder is not mentioning by name? maybe Menashe Unger? is he Trief in square? did he also daven in the Friedwald home?
Schneur "Both Skver and Lubavitch will not be able to withstand the Internet, and modern technology in delivering an objective portrayal of their movements and leaders" how about Satmar and Belz?
There was a Shendishever Rebbe in the lower east side, that was runing his life as if he is in the alter Hiem. I think that Senator Libermans family were his chasidim.
hirshel Re Tolne, the old Tolner of Jerusalem( grandfather of Reb Itche)is American born? Prof. Twersky of Brookline was also a Tolner Rebbe, all his kids are Frum and Misnagdic oriented. Who is the Rav today in Tolne Boston?
Tzig...You ask who I was talking about? I was referring to what Schneur wrote three comments before mine, but it would also be applicable to your posts as well. There is going to come a time when those who remember or know about Ortrhodoxy before and after the war will be gone. Descriptions and details left on the internet will become increasingly valuable.
R Mayer is the Tolner Rebbe in Boston. He has a brother in E"Y who is a magid shiur in Toras Moshe. His sister is married to Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblatt of Riverdale. don't know if there are other siblings
Shneur, As a Lubavitcher yungerman and shliach, I'd like to tell you that Iam very much interested in what you have to say about the history of Chassidus in America (SBG not withstanding) Your mnetion of Denver brought back fond memoires to my days in Yeshivas toras Chaim in in the late 80's. The Yeshiva is situated in the West side of denver which was once called' The yerushalayim of the West'. starting in the late 1800's and continuing through into the 50' and 60's many fayner yidden called it their home. It seems especially from Volhin and Russia. The ocal yidden i met living around the yeshiva were ost elderly but very geshmake yidden. Many spoke warmly of R'Sloimele Twersky who many remembered as an extremely kind and comassionate person. The story goes he requested to be buried in the 'paupers' cemetary where many of the poor and TB victims were buried. I don't know if he was reburied or is still buried there. The local shuls were filled wih old chassidishe seforim. I tried finding traces of this once glorius past but the are where the shtiblach and mikvaos was located, was razed to make way for highways etc. Please hare what you know, I'd be fascinated to find out more.
This article leaves out the history of the uniquely American Chassidus called Creedmoorer. This great and storied Chassidus owes its existence strictly to the ease with which its Rebbe, a descendant of the Szarkonosvary-Arsvary Roov of rural Hungary, obtains Federal entitlement payments.
Then again, New Square also owes its continued existence to the ease with which its Rebbe's hangers-on obtain Federal entitlement payments.
Could someone quickly tell me where the info on the Frierdiger Rebbe is? I can read Yiddish but not perfectly and it will take me forever to find it :).
R Shloime Twersky is buried in Milwaukee. Tzig- did you see the haModia article about Chassidus which interviewed the Makover Rav and a mashpia named Deutsch. Maybe you could post it. I would like to hear what people think about it.
Rabbosai, Hopefully tomorrow I will try to the best of my knowledge to deal with the article . i think it appeared in Oroth #3 published by Skwera. I have been in communication with it's author Rabbi AF and he is maleh vegadush and a fine person. I think I certainly can learn much from his knowledge and menthchlikeit Lets all try to refrain from streotyping Skver and the people devoted to Skverer life style. Perhaps I ahve been guilty myself.Objectivity is important and lets not rush to judgement.
I think I recall reading an article by Reb Shloime Twerski and he reported that by the time he arrived in Denvr the real chasidic Jews from the Trisker etc were all gone. Now he himself was a special man wow never met anyone like him ! There were 3 talner rebbes in america in NYC, Phil, and Boston. Reb Yochonon bucked his parents and went to israel to study with kanoim and thus remained frum and Chassidic , none of his siblings did. The Talner of Boston stated that with him Chassidius is over.I doubt any of Dr. Isaac's brothers were Chassidic . Yet history played a trick and Dr. Twerski became a sort of rebbe . But what he really was is a giant in Chachmas Israel His son is a big lamdan and fine man , but I really doubt he is a Rebbe the way we think of it(perhaps that makes him gadol me Rebbe shmo !) The Phil Tolner had no spiritual yerusha as far as I know. perhaps he too had some frum eyniklech. I have yet to meet a talner chasid whose family is from Ukriane. There were many rebebs here and some contrary to popular opinion did preserve their traditions, and others remained Orthodox if not Chassidic. In the unpublished yomon of 1929-1930 the Rayaatz is not nispoel from them and of course I think he was correct. But I am also not objective.It is reportd that Rayaatz told Anash in Boston to consult the Tolner Rebbe there when he left America. I find that hard to blieve for many reasons.The story about the Bezler and america is certainly fanciful and a put down of litvishe Rabbonim. But there were chashuve rebebs here : Monoshtritzer who was the greatest, Novominsker another giant, Boyaner another giant , Stoliner in Willaimsburg (Detroiter) and others I can not think of ike rav Moshele Schneersohn-Twersky of Kuidenov-Tomoshpol. Of course there was the Malach himself who made a Revoltion here on the backs of other Anash who also planted seeds here.The malach though must have been a special person. But contemporary chassidus in America starts with the arrival of the Zehelemer rav and then the Rayaatz who started a yeshiva a educational dept and brought the teachings of Chassiidm tot he attention of the Americaner Yidden
Hirshel now that you have chosen to blog exclusively in Yiddish the mine of information that was your blog has basicaly been closed to those of us (and I speculate that they are many) for whom yiddish is not our first language. It has got to the point where I only check your blog now to see Shneur's comments. Chaval Al DOvdin
He may have become a Gerrorist chosid when he made aliyah. He wasn't a gerrer when he learned there as a Lower East Side teenager. Did he learn in Sfas Emes? Was it even established?
Reb Yochonon studied in Israel in the 1920's witht rav Sonnenfeld and if I am not mistaken rav Diskin the son.and others of the same ilk. When he made aliya in the 1950's he moved close to Ger.
Schneur "Yet history played a trick and Dr. Twerski became a sort of rebbe " In the coffee table picture book, put out by the Kew Garden Chernobler Einikel.Their is a very friendly picture of DR Issac with Reb Mottel Rachmistrivker Z"l, I am very curious to know Dr Issacs relationship with RYY of New Square, I once heard from a Skverer Einikel a little negative vibes on the old Tolner father of of the professor.On the other hand there is a nice Hesped from his mechutan RJBS,
Reb Yochonon also organized a study group of Banshak in NY to study together and farbreng together. I believe my friend rabbi Twersky of Queens son of the Chotimer and nephew of rabbi SZ Gurary ZL showed me a picture of the group. As the Divre Yoel said "amol zaynene da geven shenere Yiden vi haynt ober zey hoben nit apgehit chinuch habanim." A bit of a guzma, but there were soem real frum Yidden here but there was no hamshacha.
Schneur "and a put down of litvishe Rabbonim." I don't look at it as a putdown, it just is not in the Belzer style, to sent to Lita etc... It does not ring true
History is not always what it seems to be. Maimonidies School existed in Boston since the 1930's yet the Talner rebbe sent his son Isidore to Boston Latin School. He clearly wanted him to have only the best secualr education.Unlike the bostoner rebbe rav LYH he was not sent to Tore Vedaas. I know my friends here in WH will kill me for writing this , but let me do it anyway, the rav was not very happy about the shidduch with his daughter and IT. He was not a lamdan but a student at Hebrew University. It then became a reality and the Rav compelled IT to study with him - Shaas and Poskim and IT was awarded a semicha from RIETS without him ever spending much time here. He clearly knew his RAMBAM. From what I heard Rav JBS was not excited about his mechuttan either. A hesped of course ! why not deliver a quality hesped(could the rav give a different type of hesped) to the other granfather of his grandchildren ? But contrary to many of the yolden here , the shidduch was not an obvious thing. there were other more chashuve rabbonim in greater Boston than Rav Twersky.Kvodo bemkmo munach. Again my eylem does not wish to hear it , but BG told me several times that Grandfather ZTL (Rayaatz) wanted him to marry the rav's daughter and so he BSG went to Riets "zu bakennen zich mit derech halimmud" and the cheftza and gavra to try to use the Brisker dictionary.. But BSG was already in "love" with Berel Haskind's daughter Minna and the rest is or is not history. Perhaps Anash hailing from Boston can tell us about the relationship of the Talner Rebbe there with the Rebbe and Anash. I know of no interaction.
Schneur "Of course there was the Malach himself who made a Revoltion here on the backs of other Anash who also planted seeds here" on how many families did he have influence? 50? 40? 15?
There was also a Tolner Rebbe in Montreal who ended up in Yerushalayim.
I have heard claims that he fled to E"Y to escape prosecution for financial shenanigans. This I doubt unless it was a case of just not knowing how to account for legitimate collections that went to legitimate chessed or upkeep of a shul (like Rav Shaul Kassin who got entangled with Solomon Drek).
What I do suspect is that he was unable to find his place in Montreal, felt redundant or irrelevant there, and just moved on.
BG told me several times that Grandfather ZTL (Rayaatz) wanted him to marry the rav's daughter and so he BSG went to Riets "zu bakennen zich mit derech halimmud" --
LOL. I think Bere Moicher Sforim had a very exaggerated opinion of himself and his place in the world. Kind of like his 2 remaining Chassidim, Schneur and Shmarya (the Failed One). The only thing I do accept is that no one wanted him to marry Minna and she may have been the one behind all the rishus.
The Malach;s followers were the first young bachurim and yungeleit in America as a group to dress Chassidic speak Yiddish and behave in a real chassiidc derech in regards one's family. They were also the 1st Americans under old age to study chassidic doctrines and its texts as a group. Yes this was a Revolution.Before 1940 Chassiduth in America was for Rebbes who made their living from it and old men and women who believed in their kochos.The Malach took American born young men and inspired them in a Chasidic life. This may not suit the writers of history by CH people , but it is the truth.
I met the Chotiner several times . He was such an erliche yid without ginunei malchus without shtick , without ego dressed like a simple Yid from the Lower east side , he did not seek mind control, he did not seek other peoples money to do things most rebbes today know they can not do, in many ways tht is the way the Besht was in my imagination. Do you guys imagine the BESHT sitting on a throne with Gold begadim and ahuge shtreimel and and a gold tipped walking stick ? I guess he was good enough for the Holy Kopishnitzner to take him as an eidem along with Rabbi Zalman Gurary and he raised nice kids who honor their family. The Chotiner worked with Yidden from the Shearis hapleita and later on Russian Jews .
Regardless, the Malochim had no hemshech. They were a footnote in Jewish history and the Malach himself sounded like a combination of Berland and Helbrans. The Malach's own brother's family are as mainstream Chabad as you can get. They are the Levy's of OK Kashrus.
The sane Malochim like Gertner of Yossele Schichmacher fame went over to Satmar as soon as Reb Yoilish established himself. A few even went over to Chabad (Zirkind, Blesovsky??)
The lone meshuggener Moloch left today is Weberman of the Neturei Karta, whose father was also zeyr shtark tzu dreyt. His cousin is on trial for molestation. A gitte mishpuche.
Do you guys imagine the BESHT sitting on a throne with Gold begadim and ahuge shtreimel and and a gold tipped walking stick ?
--
Nope. I imagine him giving dollars to Yidden every Sunday rather than taking dollars from Yidden for himself. And I imagine him saying that you don't get tired when you count diamonds.
Even the great tzaddik who said that the derech of the Besh't is forgotten was actually closer to much of what the Besht stood for (minus the kanois) than today's rebbelach are.
Also, the Malochim were kanoim, not Chassidim of the type either the Besht or the Alter Rebbe envisioned.
Even though der Malach was not from any place even remotely near Maramures or however you spell it, or even from Karpatia for that matter, that was his style.
The story as his followers tell it between the Malach and the Rebbe Rashab shows nothing other than the foresight of the Rebbe Rashab. The Malach supposedly caught the Rayatz, whom he tutored, reading an innocuous secular book along the lines of Sherlock Holmes, and he moisered to the Rashab. The Rashab ignored the Malach, more than perhaps knowing that his successor, and even more so his successor's successor, would need to be able to reach those who spent their entire youth reading Sherlock Holmes (as well as Howl, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Stephen Jay Gould's books full of lies and kefira, Graetz's so-called Jewish history series, etc, etc).
The Rebbe Rashab also knew that his son was on a level sufficient to be able to handle a little beis kisse reading outside the beis kisse without ending up in the beis kisse beruchnius.
The Malach then became a kanoi who attracted a handful of kanoim. His contribution compared to that of the Rayatz is like a feather versus a ton of gold.
Wasn't there a Tanya shiur in Torah voDaas of "Mr Mendlowitz"'s days until he stopped it because of the Malochim? Many if not all of the Malochim came from the original Torah voDaas of R' Shraga Feivel Mendelowitz.
I have also heard that R' Yaakov Yosef Herman was a Malach at some time during his life. His kanois was understandable, and he really was a kanoi, because he was surrounded by Jews who were falling one by one and he wanted to make sure he and his family were as different from their surroundings as possible.
R' Herman's descendants are not kanoim by any means; Rebbetzin Shain is certainly not a kanois and I doubt Rebbetzin Scheinberger was either. They are also not Chassidim and neither was he originally even if he did go over to the Malochim (which may or may not be correct).
Fact check the Levy's being desc of the brother of the Malach. Please check this fact. I recall that the relationship was of a different kind. I would be interested in hearing from Knowledgeable people out there. The fact is , it does not matter who or how many people followed the Malach(who had no intention of satrting a chavraya or of playing the role of rebbe) and his teachings but the Mlochim were the first young people in America to foster a Chassidic life style. Rabbi Weberman etc. There is still a Mlochim community today IN Williamsburg and names like Weberman , Flohr , and Dershowitz are still involved in Jewish life. they have a shul Nesivos Olam. I do not agree with their political shitah and have expressed my views on their take of Chabad years ago (viseyn geredt kamah peomim bearichus), but no one can take away their importance in the hsitory of orthodoxy in America. they were also the first to advocate Torah only as even RSFM had a excellent Englsih dept at TVD the same is true of RJJ,MTJ RCB vechuli. Even Bedford and Dean had a secular studies dept. So for thsoe of us who think that the Old Tyme Religion excludes secular studies the Malach and his boyes were the first to create a community around this idea. The Rayaatz only came to America after the Malach died, and obviously men like the Malach, I. Jacobson and others(the Kramer family on an organizational level) laid the groundwork fort he Rayaatz's work, but the Malach and his followers created the first community of young Chassidim in America.
It seems anyone who disagrees with the Lubavitcher viewpoint is a Baal gayva, I have been obviously correctly called that, BG who is in eylem hemes has now been called that. I wonder why you Anonymous ( by being so you are TAKKE a richtike anav) know so much about baale gaave. May I take a guess in some of the circles around you anyone who reads a book is called a baal gayve,( an anv reads the NY Post or Daily News) let alone a man - BSG_who studied at Johns Hopkins , Columbia and was the grandson of the Rayaatz and a friend of the Nasi hador.
Fact check the Levy's being desc of the brother of the Malach. Please check this fact. I recall that the relationship was of a different kind. I would be interested in hearing from Knowledgeable people out there.
R' Don Yoel Levy's son-in-law, (Hanoka) who is very knowledgeable in general, told me this. I also thought the relationship was a different one. IIRC R' Berel Levy's father AH was the "Malach's" brother. It makes sense because both families emigrated to the US before the Rayatz did and it was a time when names were mangled so that one becoming Levin and one Levy makes sense for that era.
They are Cohanim and not Leviim. I never asked Yitzchok how a Cohen ended up with the name Levin/Levy, but they aren't the only ones. There is a Chabad family Lewin (German spelling of Levin) in France who are Cohanim - maybe it was a way of escaping the Czarist army by confusing the authorities. I don't know if the family in France are also related to OK/Malach.
The Malochim shul in Willy is as insignificant as the NK shul in Monsey would be if no one gave the NK any attention. It is a curiosity, nothing more. The Malochim don't have a pool of people for shidduchim within the community so it cannot survive in any real form for much longer.
I read books, the NYTimes, the JPost, Der Blatt, Maariv and Yediot when in EY, the Economist when time permits - in the beis kisse (or online).
Have you ever been mekarev a single Jew, Schneur? You sit in an ivory tower where everyone is Shomer Shabbos, and you have no idea how to reach a Yid of today any more than you knew how to reach the disaffected youth of the 1960's. No, the PR and glitz are not what Chabad should be about. But Chabad always lived in the real world, and the real world today is PR, glitz and the Internet. Chabad tries to uplift all that for Yiddishkeit, and 90% of the shluchim do just that. A few fall and a few fail - such is golus.
The Rebbe always looked out for Bere and Bere Moicher Sforim stabbed him in the back. Bere thought the nesius should have been in his family and he was wrong. What would Yiddishkeit in America have looked like if the Rashag had become Rebbe? Maybe you would be the equivalent of Yudel Krinsky today - except that you would be sitting in an empty office giving an occasional interview to the Forward.
Is it the beard or gartel that makes you a chasid or a donation to your local Chabad rep ? Kanoim and Chassidim so Uriel Zimmer was not a chasid , how about Rav Chaim Noe of Jslm after all he was a farbrente Edanik, and the secy of Chief rabbi Chaim Sonnenfeld of the eda , how about the Malach himslef , he too was not a chasid ? Levine was not the Malachs real name. The shul is still large enough to have a yat Kislev gathering.
An ehrlicher Rav in Florida who may be connected with Chabad.
A meshuggener who burns the flag every Peerim in Willy as he dances to the Chabad "Vekol Karnei Reshoim."
A pervert in the dock for molestation.
Dershowitz:
What happened to Yitzchok Dershowitz's children in EY? He was quite an adventurer. He ended up working for Peeylim which is now an unofficial Chabad organization called Yad leAchim. The Rebbe did much for Peeylim behind the scenes as he wanted it to remain outside Lubavitch.
We all know who Alan Dershowitz is. A showman who reminds me of Boteach - whichever way the wind blows toward the bank, he blows.
Other Dershowitz descendants are modern-Zionist - I know them personally.
Flohr:
Brings to mind a Judaica store in BP and not much else.
R' Don Yoel Levy's son-in-law, (Hanoka) who is very knowledgeable in general, told me this. I also thought the relationship was a different one. IIRC R' Berel Levy's father AH was the "Malach's" brother. It makes sense because both families emigrated to the US before the Rayatz did and it was a time when names were mangled so that one becoming Levin and one Levy makes sense for that era.
-- I must say though that when he told me this he sounded a little unsure of himself. Maybe it is not correct but the Levys are related to the Malach in some way. I'd like to know as well; I lost my contact info for any of the Levys and I'm nowhere near them right now. I have one person I can ask to ask his Levy relative by marriage but I know I won't remember.
Uriel Zimmer was a chossid of the Rebbe, not a member of the Chabad community. There were many Chassidim of the Rebbe who were not Chabad Chassidim per se. Such was the Rebbe's influence.
R' Chaim Noeh - did he live to see the Dor haShvii? The Rebbe Rashab was firmly in the anti-Zionist camp.
But the Malochim were not Chassidim. They were cultists with a cult leader who happened to learn Chassidus. Comparing the Malach to Berland or Schick would be very accurate (Helbrans would be pushing it) - those 2 may claim they are following Breslov but they are just using the name and a bit of the Torah of Breslov to control and manipulate their followers.
I still don't see a reason for this site to go on, All we have is Schneur mevaze the Rebbe, sandwiched with a little info on russian Jewry . The chabad bashing on this site is terrible. The Baal Hablog is not refuting them what is the purpose of this blog
Hirshel "Is it the beard or gartel that makes you a chasid or a donation to your local Chabad rep ?" one day you have to read Schneurs rant that Chabad is modern dressed and today Schneur makes fun of the chasidic garb,he is a obsessive hater What is the purpose of the blog?
Rabbi Noe died after the death of the Rayaatz. So was he a chasid ? I thought the Rebbe told some NK people that we in Lubavitch are the richtike Neturei Karta (did he tell this to rav Cohen the rosh kollel of Kfar chabad ? I think so)Sp in that case all of luabvitch are Kanoim ! You guys out there have no idea who the Malach was, the man had no interest in being a cult leader. He was an alte White Russian Yid living in the bronx as a rav in a Nusach Ari shul and wasa memebr of the board of Aguch at that time. He was a gor opgehitener yid by all accounts. RSFM discovered him and brought his boys to meet him and study Dach with him. Rav Levine was probably never even in TVD or Williamsburg. He was an alte Chassiidc jew who had undergone lots of personal zaros. A cult leader ? By the way if he was a cult leader do you guys think reb Baruch baer and Reb Chaim Brisker would give him kavod MLochim 9excuse the pun)? Did he try to control anyone's life . Was he a REbbe ? Did he have a shul for his talmidim. After he died another zubrochene Yid led the group as a rav but not as a rebbe. Todays rav is another Yid who learns all day and has no pretensions of being able to act lemaale miderech hateva. I have little symapthy for their politics and have little regard for them as Chabad people, but they were mekabel something from the Malach. And the Mlochim and their leader were never in the geder of a cult --- a sect yes but a cult with mind control and charasmatic leadership as the rabbonim you mention, shows you know nothing about the Malach. I just don;t understand why you guys can't fargin him a place in the history of orthodox judaism in America ?
Anonymous says. I am happy that you finally got all of that off your chest. Now you must feel much better and my only suggestion is to say the Tikkun Haklloli a few times. You may feel even better. When you finish that say the Rebbe Reb Elimelechs zetel katan , do baruigt di Nerven - baduk umenuse As Reb Nachman said "Kain Yisyush is gor not farhanden" ,so there is hope for you and me.
The Malach was a footnote, an interesting footnote, nothing more and nothing less. Yes, he tried to control his talmidim - why would they have adopted the levush otherwise? He may have inspired Gertner to start Golden Flow, but I don't think they were the first brand of CY in the US - only that they used underhanded tactics to control the price (though that may have been after Gertner sold the firm).
He was a cult leader, and your portrayal of him has more holes than Swiss cheese. He was a zero until he came to TVD and then he took talmidim of TVD into his cult. RSFM threw him out. When Rav Wechter did far less than that, you and your ilk excused his having been beaten up.
Did anyone at the time understand cults? The Moonies made people aware of cults and they came far later. Were Reb Chaim Brisker and Reb Boruch Ber infallible? Many gave kovod to Berland in the old days too, and it is only now that we know who he really is and how far off center he is. He is tzubrochen in the same way the Malach was and he also had tzoris.
The Rebbe gave kovod to people he disagreed with as well; the only time he didn't was with the baiter from Bnei Brak. (Ed Koch also has a nice bubbamaise about the Rebbe in his book, but Koch is a fruit and a nut who was disappointed to find out that Crown Heights could not bring him very many votes because it isn't half as big as outsiders think it is).
Reliable askonim even supported Helbrans until they knew better.
the interesting thing about the malach that he was niftar more then seventy years ago and he still wakes up mix feelings or you like him or you hate him him there is no middle way with the malach
his letters have been probably been printed quiet a few times probably at this moment out of print hundreds of yidden revere his name learn his letters want to know more about him these yidden do not descend from white Russia they descend from topolshan serdehel tokay pest miskolcz
this is the strength of emess who at all forces these people to learn his letters i remember in my yeshiva in bnei brak a litvishe yeshiva a boucur a grandson from a malach came to learn from the states his grandfather gave him a present the letters of the malach to look in while he is in eretz yisroel after a half year there was not one bocur in shiur (it was a shiur of around 30 litivisher bocurim )who had not looked in the malach letters and made copies of the sefer
by all these people the malach is not just a footnote of history but a rebbe whose letters are relevant today as they were seventy years ago
The only people who can truly appreciate the "Malech" are very old school Lubavitchers whose minds have not been brainwashed by the hishkasrus nonsense.I don't know if such people still exist. He was an old White Russian Jew who lived and breathed learning and Hassidus Habad.So he wasn't mekusher,big deal!He clearly was a heiliker yid.
I actually do not hate the Malach or the Malochim at all. If I did I would call him "Levine" and not the Malach. Chabad even mentions him in a positive light on the Chabad.org somewhere and no one has any problem with Rav Zirkind in CH who is said to be a semi-Malach.
They belonged to a short blip of time on the radar screen of history. Today they would be a Berland or Schick type cult, and the proof is in the Golden Flow pudding - the normal folk went elsewhere and the only chugim where a tzudrayter like Weberman has a place are Ku Klux Karta and the rump Malochim.
Except that Reb Amram ZYA was a tremendous baal chesed who never tried to control anyone and more of an askan than a rebbe, you could call the Malach the Reb Amram of America. Reb Amram was a daas yochid and his kanois was very real. I think the Malach was motivated a bit by jealousy of the Rayatz and evening scores but he did pave the way for Satmar, and I consider Satmar a very positive development.
What I hate is our amateur historian trying to use the Malochim to beat Chabad. The Malochim were infintesimal and very temporary. Chabad is not what it was 30 years ago, but neither is the world. And Chabad dor hashvii was not the previous Chabad because it was transplanted to a different world. Yet, it survives and thrives no matter where it is planted.
Hirshel-You compare hishkasrus of a chosid who saw his Rebbe once every three years,heard a maymer,[maybe] and then went home for another three years to the flood of information overload coming out of 770 in the last 60 years.That this was the case before the war I know from talking to old chassidim and from the Freirdiker Rebbe's memoirs. In dor shevii there were farbrengens and updates every montik and donershtik transmitted by telephone,radio,and video. How do you compare the two? Even before the war how often did a chosid see or hear the Rayatz or Rashab? You answer me.The word hishkasrus is the same but it meant something completely different.Reb Yankev Landau wasn't a chabad chosid? How often did he see the Rebbe and how close was he to the Rebbe.He wasn't the only one.Sorry,the new 24/7 hishkasrus is an invention of dor shevii.You can call me "ignorant" but you risk beginning to sound like some of your bloggers.You weren't disqualified from being a chosid chabad in the alter heim if you didn't "write" to the Rebbe on a regular basis. Many never wrote at all and remained chassidishe yidn in every sense of the word.The Malach's lack of hishkasrus didn't make him ois chosid. That's hard for dor shevii to understand.
the fact stays fact that seventy years after his petirah the malach still leave a impression with his letters in the heads and hearts of hundred of yidden so you cannot call him to quote "They belonged to a short blip of time on the radar screen of history"
all the people you mention berland or shick i wonder seventy years after their demise will anybody be interested in them or their letters?
where i come from the rebbe the ryat"z is held as a tzadik hador as my rebbe hashem should give him arichas yomim v shonim says the holy eyes of the ryat"z were like two spotlights and when you went ion to yechidus you felt they were going thru and thre your head
Just to show you how "chassidish" the "malach" was:עם גניזת ארון הקודש של הצמח צדק גם חכמת חב''ד נגנזה עמו These are his own words cited in Sichroin Divre HaRav. You can see the outcome of his twisted mind in his nochshleppers whose understanding of Chassidishkayt consists of tearing out the frontpages of Kehos seforim
The Malach himself made it clear he was ois chossid. He may have followed Chabad, but so did Kopust, Staroshelye etc. He was just a short-lived and small breakaway leader or teacher.
The Malach's letters are similar to Schick's books. A bit of momentary inspiration to some, but largely fringe material. Since there will always be marginal people who are inspired by marginal leaders, there is always room for the Malach, Schick, Berland, Helbrans and the Na Nachs, and yes, the yellow flags. Kanois is another story. I think it is an explosive reaction to the new technologically connected world in which we live, and it will soon detonate itself out of existence. Chabad uplifts the Internet, oisvorfen use it to ramble, and the kanoim ban it while their followers use the worst of it when no one is looking.
And there will always be the malcontents, the Schneurs, the Shmaryas, the Bergers etc, tilting at windmills out of jealousy.
do you belive that in seventy years time there will be yidden whose fathers and grand father had no kesher with Schick, Berland, Helbrans and the Na Nachs,and will be intrsestd in what they said and did like there is today with the malach
again the interesting thing about the malach that he was niftar more then seventy years ago and he still wakes up mix feelings or you like him or you hate him him there is no middle way with the malach
Who besides you is interested in the Malach's writings? He had a handful of followers and now only a fingerful claim any connection to him. Even Schneur is only interested in him as a (minor) historical figure.
Considering Schick's books are available everywhere, someone who is either searching or who is obsessed with the chet of Onan will pick one up three generations from now, probably online.
On the other hand, how many people learn the Rebbe's sichas even in some abridged form and have no connection to Chabad? In three generations, there will be even more because people will be more and more fed up with these chometz ben yayin dynastic rebbes and those who find Breslov too radical or simplistic will flock to Chabad in places like Monsey and Heichal Menachem in BP (and BB).
Simple question: Was the Malach a hassidishe yid a'p toras hasidus habad? Simple answer:Absolutely Yes. By the way,why do you think he was called the" Malech?"And for your information he was called the "Malech" in der Alter Heim ven di velt iz noch geven a velt.
Anon "Simple answer:Absolutely Yes." I am just coming in late in this Malech/Malach discussion, But I will ask you a simpler question, How much chabad chasidus did you see in the holy sefer of his(that is very popular in Salbodka Israel), Igros Kodesh ? It his basically a anti Mishgal manifesto, with almost no refrence to chabad seforim.
Anon "and now only a fingerful claim any connection to him. Even Schneur is only interested in him as a (minor) " this whole fascination with the Malach comes ,from his stance that he took against Chabad. The Malochim claim that Reb Chaim, Reb Mayer Simcha and many misnagdim gedolim were enamored of his gadlus in Torah and sifrie chakira. There are no letters or hard facts on the above, it is all half baked stories. Even the brisker family are believing this. There is 1 reason, that they are buying anything, he was anti Chabad from inside. I am not here to diminish his personality, it is just a observation.
What Chabad would have looked like had Schneur had his way:
September 30, 2012:
Today might be the last day on which Schneur Zalman A., former secretary to the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Sholom DovBer "Barry" Gurary, can call the practically abandoned hulk of 770 Eastern Parkway his home.
The building, which once belonged to the Lubavitch organization and served as its headquarters, had been mysteriously signed over to Gurary himself, and mortgaged, before Gurary's death in 2005.
Bank of America has been trying to foreclose on the mortgage for over three years now, and only A's status as a senior citizen and his use of various stalling tactics has allowed him to remain there rent-free.
Today it has become clear that A's has no legal right to remain in the building, as he has no legal proof that Gurary ever gave him the right to reside there. Bank of America has also applied to have the building condemned due to water damage and other hazardous conditions.
A, who is considered an amateur historian and harmless neighborhood character by the mixture of modern Orthodox former Chassidim, urban professionals and middle-class blacks who live in the area, has no heat or electricity ever since the home next to him was knocked down to prepare for the building of condominiums by its owner.
Gurary had presided over a dwindling following of Chassidim, as the already small, insular sect had lost much membership when his father, Rabbi Shmaryahu Gurary, passed away in 1989.....
In other words, it is the story of Saba NaNach. The NaNach crew found a senile old man in a nursing home and made a fool of him.
The Malochim found a shamash and made a rebbe of him.
Then again, Chabad also is now run by the Rebbe's baal agule but it hardly matters because it is far bigger than any administrator and if the baal agule disappeared tomorrow, it would be as if nothing happened.
Anon8:52There are so many problems in Lubavitch today many of which are not even touched upon in this blog because of respect for the Baal Hoachsanyah,that I must say Lubavitch under a Rashag-Bere administration would not have been the end of life on planet Earth. There certainly would not be mentally ill "Hassidics" offering "toasts" to an upholstered red chair and there probably would not be a group of mekusharim trying to put their neighbors in the penitentiary.And maybe,just maybe,there'd be an educational system in place where people could actually learn enough mentchiskeit to conduct a normal conversation without resorting to viscious,personal insults.But then again what would we do without an army of 15 year olds in untucked Arrow shirts[no tails,please]and super-sized Borsalinos with those tell-tale kneitches in all"the right places?"I don't know about you but I'd be pretty darn depressed.
Even the secular researchers who would do anything to prove Bere Moicher Sforim's father should have been rebbe admit that Bere had no regard for halacha. He would have had a small neo-Chassidic group on the fringes of modern Orthodoxy, in a little shul in the back of 770. The rest of 770 would have been used only for an occasional wedding or more likely levaya.
There would have been no Chabad under the other option, and either most of the Chassidim, especially the ones who left Russia after the war would have gone somewhere else and compelled the Rebbe to be Rebbe there or they would have fallen apart.
In fact had the other scenario taken place some of the Chassidim who did not leave until the 60's and 70's might well never have left and who knows where they would have ended up.
The real question is what Lubavitch would have been without all the New Age,macrobiotically induced, Esalen inspired,magic mushroomed,advanced astral projection, higher chassidic, BT consciousness?Would the eltere chassidim who came in the 60's and 70's have been "bakvem"without the likes of Carlos Castaneda and the chavraye kadisha from Berkeley to be mekabel ponim them?Me thinks not.Thankfully,these people who had suffered so much"in yene medineh" were not subject to culture shock and just "fit right in."The tofu latkes tasted just like the "yuzhke" they had in Sibir.
The question is how many frum children alive today would not even have been born had Rashag, who was just not Rebbe material, been followed by Bere Moicher Sforim who was not shomer Torah uMitzvos.
Those eltere Chassidim and their children were the ones who were mekarev people away from Esalen and other nonsense in the 70's.
And I guess you would rather have fewer frum Yidden. Jews being involved in New Age dreck is a symptom of golus. Only the Rebbe and his true Chassidim could turn that around and direct people to real Yiddishkeit and Chassidus.
I happen to mix in both the world of old Russian chassidim and of New Age BT's and I have never had a single tofu latke or anything else remotely weird. If anything, gezhe families are avoiding unhealthy food like cane sugar and white flour now because of the BT influence. There are many health food stores and alternative medical practitioners in BP and Willy too - in fact there is only one small health food supplier in CH and it is just a couple of aisles in a typical NY sized pharmacy. (I happen to agree with Rav Avrohom Blumenkranz AH who called alternative medicine kishuf - sadly he was ill all his life and he knew all too well how these quacks prey on people. Healthy eating, as opposed to macrobiotics and other food fetishes, is another story.)
I think you regularly eat a species of mushroom that induces sinas chinam and jealousy.
Anon.3:06 At least 50% and perhaps a whole lot more of chasidei chabad are vilde meshichistn. They get kos shel brochoh from a red upholstered chair and give aliyes and kibudim to someone who is in olem haemes. They have taken over the main beis medrash and openly spout their combination of mental illness and kefirah to the whole world through a wide array of publications and web sites. This is something that is unheard of in any other Chassidus or yeshivishe group.While you can be proud of some things that have been accomplished under the name of Habad,this Meshichist insanity is without prescedent in the Jewish world in the past 300 years. Who laid the groundwork for this? The Rashag and his son Bere?Messichism is the direct result of events and conditions that existed before gimmel Tamuz.Were the Guraries running Lubavitch then? The moshiach frenzy that overtook Lubavitch was the the fault of the Rashag and Bere Gurarie?I am writing very diplomatically mipnei kevod achsanyeh.You figure the rest out yourself and reach your own conclusions.If you want credit for 3000 Habad houses all over the world then you have to take the blame for the same ideaology that also created the monster that is called Meshichism.And please don't tell me what the ziknei haHassidim thought about the Bts.Save that discussion for a BT who doesn't know any better.
20-70 nuts a week get the kos shel brocho or dollars for real. A few go to enjoy some fun. Many is the enterprising fellow who has wanted to go through the line 100 times to bankrupt the nutters, but that is a good way of risking real trouble.
The Gurarys would have made all of Chabad irrelevant and a historical footnote. Instead you have a huge successful movement that breathes life back into Judaism in places where it died decades ago - and these somewhat interesting Na Nach types with the flags who can't last more than a generation anyway.
What's more, with the way Chabad spread throughout the world, that beis medrash is almost irrelevant except as a symbol. I haven't been there in years and I have no reason to go.
The sons of the old Russians are the ones who were mekarev many of the first BT's. Now it is their grandsons who are at the forefront of shlichus.
Take some Prozac or Zoloft if you can't control your hatred and jealousy.
What's more, even the nuts and the relatively small amount of damage they cause compared to the damage caused by a Spitzer or a Kolko is a tribute to the open-tent policy of Chabad.
Those like myself who can't take what's going on in 770 have enough to do and enough places to go that we don't bemoan the circus there.
Glogover Gabai ".And maybe,just maybe,there'd be an educational system in place where people could actually learn enough mentchiskeit to conduct a normal conversation without resorting to viscious,personal insults.But then again what would we do without an army of 15 year olds in untucked Arrow shirts[no tails,please]and super-sized Borsalinos with those tell-tale kneitches in all"the right places?"I don't know about you but I'd be pretty darn depressed." you realy thing that a Lubacvicher has to answer you with respect.Just because you dont go for that Kniech? is their some Rational in your words, I don't see a reason why a guy like Hirshel the Baal Hablog, puts up with a such a bowl of vomit. He still thinks he does a service for chabad.
I guess I thought that somehow him getting his hateful thoughts off his chest and you responding to him would help Chabad. But I see now that it will do no good.
Glogover Gabai "They get kos shel brochoh from a red upholstered chair and give aliyes and kibudim to someone who is in olem haemes. They have taken over the main beis medrash and openly spout their combination of me" I don't see no difference in the level of Meshugaz, between saying Lechaim to a empty chair in 770, then saying lechaim to a spiritual death person on 48th st in BP?
Grogover gabai, "Messichism is the direct result of events and conditions that existed before gimmel Tamuz.Were the Guraries running Lubavitch then? The moshiach frenzy that overtook Lubavitch was the the fault of the Rashag and Bere Gurarie?" the Rebbe does not have to apologize for talking , crying, nudging on Moshiach,. It is a yesoid of emunah and the apologies has to come from gedolim that did not emphasize on it. 16 years have passed since Gimmel Tamuz, and all you have is, Kraus from Argentina and some idiots from Australia. Imagine crying on all orthodoxy because a Rav a menuval like Lieb Troper.
Hirshel This idiot thinks now that since nobody in Chabad is smart enough to explain the difference between the Rebbe and the dislexic Bere, then he won on the PR war, and he sees fault in Chabad educational system. Let him check in by some doctor and get off your blog. You are extremely naive to think that this venom has to go on your blog. For gods sake just delete them....
I think the Tzig does do a service here. When you see the haters come out of the woodwork, whether with pseudo-history, rambling hatred or just plain old sinas chinam, it can only reinforce your confidence that Chabad is on the right track and the haters are as passe as 8-track.
Anon "the Malach was Shamash in the Beis Kneses Ari in the Bronx and someone discovered him" it is not true, the Malach was the Rav in that shul I know some people that used to daven by him.
Thank you for calling me a "bowl of vomit." That's completely appropriate for my comment about a "kneitch"on a hat? Are Lubavitchers so beyond reproach that any criticism requires management with Zoloft and Prozac?By the way last acharon shel Pesach hundreds passed for imaginary kos shel bracha. There is a You Tube video to prove it.Anyone can watch it,even a so called Lubavitcher.The real hate is that which is saved for the Rashag,Bere,Reb Chaim Lieberman,Reb.Chana G. and anyone else who questioned the authority of dor shevii.I argue on facts and you call me a "bowl of vomit." I rest my case.
Yawn. Many people pass through the line as a joke. I happen to have kos shel bracha myself from before gimmel tammuz and I give plenty of it out for kiddush Shabbos morning in shul.
Could be that some people think the wine being given out is also prepared from authentic kos shel brocho so they put up with the nonsense to get what they want.
I read it last night. It shows much research and leg work. While it lacks a sense of order it has many interesting facts and details.I think if it was rewritten in an orderly fashion and with a bit of analysis it would be an impt contribution to the subject.
ReplyDeleteSome of the photos are also interesting.
Note the details of an interview that the Rayaatz gave in Detroit in 1929 and compare what he says with the state of Lubavitch today.
The story about the so called Koshnitzer rebbe Reb Twwrski halevi, I heard mipi REb Dovid of Skver=BP years ago. Wow ! old time phonies were also great men, look at this man's sefer its male vegdush in Sisre teyre.
Shneur
ReplyDeleteas the Maagid Mieshorim of modern day Chabad, you don't forget to put in your 2 cents of Divrie Kivushuin for Chabad.
Its about time that all the Mashpiem, Mazkirem and the cursed out fund raisers, from the US and abroad should take the Subway from Crown Heights to the alte chosid of Washington Heights and get a lecture on the Hanoge for more Penimius and less of the cursed out PR, and stop ignoring the FR.
וגם אני מצטרף לזה
ReplyDeleteמצטרף למה?
ReplyDeleteHirshel
ReplyDeleteare the words Leksheufutzo in the original article? or your paste job?
since I only see in the article the death of chasidus.
Russian,
ReplyDeleteCall yourself a different name, i copyrighted "Russian" on this blog.
The pitty is on all this Rebbes who came to US in 1900 is that most of their kids turned away... Haval al d'avdin. Very few were strong enough.
Russian chusid-I can't figure out if you're serious or not.Anyway,I'd never want to be a chUsid...where I come from it's pronounced" chosid."
ReplyDeleteRussian Chusid
ReplyDeletewhats your view on the Makever Ruvs interview in Hamodia on Chasidus? Did you have a opurtunity to read it?
to bring history facts from skver write a novel instead, skver has no history, they have zero printed information from prior WW1, all there stuff was fabricated here in america, please point out how many of the skver chassidim have their roots to skver or ussr.
ReplyDeletea skver to write about the rayatz is a joke, its so biased, they hated lubavitch because of the bal shem tov's siddur, vd"l.
on the other side of the coin you got belz, this tiny swampy muddy road village did indeed have a glory history, but belz of today is twisting and rewriting their own past, therefor read only the published material prior 1960 or pre WW2 to be on the safeside.
bobov never touched any history the way it was thats the way it was printed, the bobov rebbi is/was very makpid on it. bobov (many might not know)helped to build a lot of yiddishkeit in america before WW2.
Oy Bobov; you never fail to crack me up. I think you should save all your wisdom all year long, and tell it all after the conclusion of the Seder on Pesach, לקיים מנהג ראפשיץ which was adopted in Bobov. והמ"י.
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, it seems you imbibe on Harbeh Cases Ya"SH (צ"ו) a/o a lilkeh full o hash, before you spew your 'knowledge' לחיים!
Bobov
ReplyDeleteIn the article they almost dont talk about Skver, I see the power of Reb Yakov Yossef Skverer by being able to create a foreign Russian chassidus with total new blood of Hungarian Jews. That is a plus to his personality, not the opposite. He built up Skver to stronger that it was ever.All the Minhogim were never the minhogim of the flock that belonged to skver in the ukraine,I saw the Skverer Rebbe himself admitting to it. Besides Tehilim Shabos Morning. Today you have a couple of thousand people breathing this Minhogim.
Bobov Chusid
ReplyDelete"because of the bal shem tov's siddur, vd"l."
the Rachmistrivker Rebbe of BP, told to many people that his FIL had no grudge on the Rayatz about the Siddur, it was in the hand of one of their chasidim and he sold it to the Rayatz, and we had no money.He would like to have it but he could not get the funds.
No one ever answered this question from anonymous. I too would be interested to find out what everyone thinks of this article? who is the Makova Rav by the way?
ReplyDeleteRussian Chusid
whats your view on the Makever Ruvs interview in Hamodia on Chasidus? Did you have a opurtunity to read it?
Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteDid I write the article ?
Did I put it on this site ?
Did I give the interview in Detroit in 1929 about the nature of American Jews ?
Do I want to meet your chashuve fund raisers ? (I don't have enough money for these people)
Do I demand that anyone meet me , do I run around the streets asking latinos if they are Chaabd chassidm and they need to accept the 6th Rebbe ? and wishing them a good day if they are not
As far as mazkirim maybe , I"ll let Aleksei do my driving.Would I ask anyone to travel on the subway from CH to WH ? It may not be as safe as CH is these days...
But Sir this is a free country and when your 6th Rebbe from whom the 7th rebbe's power flowed says something, and I just point it out, all you can do is atack me in your letzonos , I think this is what Chazal meant by Rabbam dakru....
Don't you think that if the 6th rebbe said something it is at least worth thinking about ?
It seems to me that outside of Cuba , North korea and Outer Mongolia the only place the thought police are still fast at work in CH and the many in the movement although I am gratified to have met many many young Anash in the last 5 years who have brains and are using them to think about the events of the last 50 years and the future without being in complete denial.
The only discussion some in CH understand is personal name calling , I thought Chabad was the intellectual Chassiduth , a movement of ideas and thought.
All that said perhaps the hardcore in CH should think of a merger with the big shots in New Square , you share much except CH has a much much more effective PR machine...
I keep on trying to like and support Lubavitch , but I also keep on meeting closed minded people who seem to dominate this movemetn.
Schneur
ReplyDelete"Do I want to meet your chashuve fund raisers ? (I don't have enough money for these people)"
You are not getting it,
the fund raisers would like to get back to the good old days of Old Chabad and stop fundraising. It is the opposite, they will pay you to inspire them
Schneur
ReplyDelete"the only place the thought police are still fast at work in CH "
you forgot to list New square.
Do the CH revolutionary guards burn down houses in CH too?
Schneur
ReplyDelete"you share much except CH has a much much more effective PR machine..."
So you admit that the image of CH is in good hands with a fine PR firm? Yesterday there was a meeting in the smoke filled 770 basement that maybe we should drop the PR firm, but on your word I will tell them not to change.
Obviously the PR group could not influence you, since the Alte Chosid knows well the real "Intellectual open Minded Chabad" from the early days of reb Borech of Selish
Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteI am not on the war path with Chabad and refuse to compare Lubavitch a community of serious middle class well educated people with the situation in New Square.
All I am saying is that Ch people take any criticism as it was meant to destroy ad charmah ,, in fact its meant to draw attention ansd stimulate discussion.Thus while we may disagree on specifics and even larger concepts lets keep the response civil.
דאמירן בעלמא, מען רעדט אין דער וועלט אריין
ReplyDeletethere are 18 comments and only one person "Shneur" is talking מענין לענין באותו ענין that shows that he's the real חבד'סקער a person that his מוח is pure and רעדט צו דערזאך.
He has read the article and said his opinion. Bobov for some reason has a stupid agenda he hasn't read it but saw that it has something with skver so he's already pissed off.
I printed it out and I can tell you that this guy did a master piece, a true historian without trying to convince anyone.
Drop the PR firm - That is atzmus and mehus of Lubavitch of today if you drop the PR , whats left of Lubavitch, Basil, tamborines, and a ten dozen law suits. ?
ReplyDeleteWith unemployment these days at sky high rates , why would Aguch want to add to the rolls ?
In order to win me over , you have to hire someone more serious like perhaps Howard Rubinstein , wait he probably already works for Shabad.
Baruch hashem I have met many Chabad bachurim and yungeleit who want to hear an objective assesment of their movement and its history. I am sure there are hundreds more who are tired of Pravda and Izveztsia and Radio Moscow and want to hear the truth. they are not ready to abandon Chabad, but realize they live in the 21st century and want to see things from an objective manner and make their choices accordingly , rather than get their information in Beth Pravda.
Both Skver and Lubavitch will not be able to withstand the Internet, and modern technology in delivering an objective portrayal of their movements and leaders. In days of yore a trip to a library in Manhatan was necessary to read a different view , today a click of the mouse takes you there.
If I had $25 for every Lubavitcher who has contacted me about BSG and a different view of things, I would be a wealthy man.
These people are chassidim of the Rebbe and have no interest in leaving , but their brains are working and they wish to hear and understand different opinions and views. Such people will only grow in numbers in CH in the future.
I would love to talk about the article about Chassiidm in America before 1939, about the Rabbayeim here their life style , did they accomplish anything , what they left us, the chassidic rabbonim Rav Feder mentions, the Jews in Denver, the Nusach Ari shullen throughout the uSA, the Mlochim , the chashuve shtiblech Nine un Ninziger, cannon St. Peylishe shtibel in Williamsburg the problems , visiting rebbes (Vishever rav etc) but no one is interested in such a discussion here .
ReplyDeleteSchneur
ReplyDeleteDon't forget-it was you that moved the discussion to Chabad of today.
The story how the Rav Hakolel was selected thru the 2 visitors of the Belzer Ruv looks fictitious to me.
ReplyDeleteI would love to hear what you have to say about the Malochim , the chashuve shtiblech, Nine un Ninziger, Cannon St. Polishe shtibel in Williamsburg and the LES. The malochim were discussed on the internet years ago and the broad facts are understood,it's the details, the color that is missing. The Nein un Ninziger had I believe unemployed rebbishe eyniklech davening there. The only one I remember was the Gorlitzer,and he was unfortunately not destinied for greatness.
ReplyDeleteI should add that I learn from all your comments, and don't let the kibbitzers here or elsewhere intimidate you. There is a loyal following out there of ordinary people with an almost unlimited appetite for the material you are offering.
Who is Reb Duvid Mordechai of Tolne that used to write in Morgen Journal?
ReplyDeleteHow is he related to the old Tolner of Yerushaliem?
Who is the other writer that Feder is not mentioning by name? maybe Menashe Unger? is he Trief in square? did he also daven in the Friedwald home?
Schneur
ReplyDelete"Both Skver and Lubavitch will not be able to withstand the Internet, and modern technology in delivering an objective portrayal of their movements and leaders"
how about Satmar and Belz?
Reb Duvid Mordche was the father of the Jerusalem Tolner. The latter was, i believe, the only frum child of his.
ReplyDeleteThere is a loyal following out there of ordinary people with an almost unlimited appetite for the material you are offering.
ReplyDeleteEvanston, that who is offering?
There was a Shendishever Rebbe in the lower east side, that was runing his life as if he is in the alter Hiem. I think that Senator Libermans family were his chasidim.
ReplyDeletehirshel
ReplyDeleteRe Tolne,
the old Tolner of Jerusalem( grandfather of Reb Itche)is American born?
Prof. Twersky of Brookline was also a Tolner Rebbe, all his kids are Frum and Misnagdic oriented.
Who is the Rav today in Tolne Boston?
the Old Tolner in J'lem came here as a child
ReplyDeletethe Bostoner is from another brother
I think Meir from YU may be the Rav there now
Did the Profesor have brothers?
ReplyDeleteis Mayer a Ben Yochid?
Tzig...You ask who I was talking about? I was referring to what Schneur wrote three comments before mine, but it would also be applicable to your posts as well. There is going to come a time when those who remember or know about Ortrhodoxy before and after the war will be gone. Descriptions and details left on the internet will become increasingly valuable.
ReplyDeleteR Mayer is the Tolner Rebbe in Boston. He has a brother in E"Y who is a magid shiur in Toras Moshe. His sister is married to Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblatt of Riverdale. don't know if there are other siblings
ReplyDeleteThis is valuable information but no one will be looking for it.
ReplyDeletedoes Mayer quote Meor Einem by the torah the way his father did?
ReplyDeleteIs Mayer wearing Ziedens?
Shneur,
ReplyDeleteAs a Lubavitcher yungerman and shliach, I'd like to tell you that Iam very much interested in what you have to say about the history of Chassidus in America (SBG not withstanding) Your mnetion of Denver brought back fond memoires to my days in Yeshivas toras Chaim in in the late 80's. The Yeshiva is situated in the West side of denver which was once called' The yerushalayim of the West'. starting in the late 1800's and continuing through into the 50' and 60's many fayner yidden called it their home. It seems especially from Volhin and Russia. The ocal yidden i met living around the yeshiva were ost elderly but very geshmake yidden. Many spoke warmly of R'Sloimele Twersky who many remembered as an extremely kind and comassionate person. The story goes he requested to be buried in the 'paupers' cemetary where many of the poor and TB victims were buried. I don't know if he was reburied or is still buried there. The local shuls were filled wih old chassidishe seforim. I tried finding traces of this once glorius past but the are where the shtiblach and mikvaos was located, was razed to make way for highways etc.
Please hare what you know, I'd be fascinated to find out more.
This article leaves out the history of the uniquely American Chassidus called Creedmoorer. This great and storied Chassidus owes its existence strictly to the ease with which its Rebbe, a descendant of the Szarkonosvary-Arsvary Roov of rural Hungary, obtains Federal entitlement payments.
ReplyDeleteThen again, New Square also owes its continued existence to the ease with which its Rebbe's hangers-on obtain Federal entitlement payments.
Where was this article printed
ReplyDeleteThanks
Could someone quickly tell me where the info on the Frierdiger Rebbe is? I can read Yiddish but not perfectly and it will take me forever to find it :).
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDeleteSkver prints lately a monthly by the name Oirois(they stole the name from Rav Kook)the article is printed there.
R Shloime Twersky is buried in Milwaukee.
ReplyDeleteTzig- did you see the haModia article about Chassidus which interviewed the Makover Rav and a mashpia named Deutsch. Maybe you could post it. I would like to hear what people think about it.
Shygetz
ReplyDeleteit is probably in the book of Chabad in Artzois Habris by Berel Levin
I saw it and liked the idea very much!
ReplyDeleteEach went along his path, with Reb Chaim Sholom hitting on all cylinders
I'll try and post it
Rabbosai,
ReplyDeleteHopefully tomorrow I will try to the best of my knowledge to deal with the article . i think it appeared in Oroth #3 published by Skwera. I have been in communication with it's author Rabbi AF and he is maleh vegadush and a fine person. I think I certainly can learn much from his knowledge and menthchlikeit
Lets all try to refrain from streotyping Skver and the people devoted to Skverer life style. Perhaps I ahve been guilty myself.Objectivity is important and lets not rush to judgement.
I think I recall reading an article by Reb Shloime Twerski and he reported that by the time he arrived in Denvr the real chasidic Jews from the Trisker etc were all gone.
ReplyDeleteNow he himself was a special man wow never met anyone like him !
There were 3 talner rebbes in america in NYC, Phil, and Boston. Reb Yochonon bucked his parents and went to israel to study with kanoim and thus remained frum and Chassidic , none of his siblings did. The Talner of Boston stated that with him Chassidius is over.I doubt any of Dr. Isaac's brothers were Chassidic . Yet history played a trick and Dr. Twerski became a sort of rebbe . But what he really was is a giant in Chachmas Israel His son is a big lamdan and fine man , but I really doubt he is a Rebbe the way we think of it(perhaps that makes him gadol me Rebbe shmo !)
The Phil Tolner had no spiritual yerusha as far as I know. perhaps he too had some frum eyniklech.
I have yet to meet a talner chasid whose family is from Ukriane.
There were many rebebs here and some contrary to popular opinion did preserve their traditions, and others remained Orthodox if not Chassidic.
In the unpublished yomon of 1929-1930 the Rayaatz is not nispoel from them and of course I think he was correct. But I am also not objective.It is reportd that Rayaatz told Anash in Boston to consult the Tolner Rebbe there when he left America. I find that hard to blieve for many reasons.The story about the Bezler and america is certainly fanciful and a put down of litvishe Rabbonim.
But there were chashuve rebebs here : Monoshtritzer who was the greatest, Novominsker another giant, Boyaner another giant , Stoliner in Willaimsburg
(Detroiter) and others I can not think of ike rav Moshele Schneersohn-Twersky of Kuidenov-Tomoshpol.
Of course there was the Malach himself who made a Revoltion here on the backs of other Anash who also planted seeds here.The malach though must have been a special person.
But contemporary chassidus in America starts with the arrival of the Zehelemer rav and then the Rayaatz who started a yeshiva a educational dept and brought the teachings of Chassiidm tot he attention of the Americaner Yidden
Schneur
ReplyDelete"and went to israel to study with kanoim"?????
if I am not mistaking he was a Gerer chosid of the Lev Simcha, Where do u get Kanoim here?
Hirshel now that you have chosen to blog exclusively in Yiddish the mine of information that was your blog has basicaly been closed to those of us (and I speculate that they are many) for whom yiddish is not our first language. It has got to the point where I only check your blog now to see Shneur's comments. Chaval Al DOvdin
ReplyDeleteMD
ReplyDeletethe mine is not closed, please let's not lose ourselves here
a post in English is on the way today, IY"H
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSchneur
"and went to israel to study with kanoim"?????
if I am not mistaking he was a Gerer chosid of the Lev Simcha, Where do u get Kanoim here?
You are "mistaking". he is talking about the grandfather of the Gerrer Chosid
JJJ
ReplyDeletehis grandfather was also a Gerrer Chossid
He may have become a Gerrorist chosid when he made aliyah. He wasn't a gerrer when he learned there as a Lower East Side teenager. Did he learn in Sfas Emes? Was it even established?
ReplyDeleteReb Yochonon studied in Israel in the 1920's witht rav Sonnenfeld and if I am not mistaken rav Diskin the son.and others of the same ilk. When he made aliya in the 1950's he moved close to Ger.
ReplyDeleteSchneur
ReplyDelete"Yet history played a trick and Dr. Twerski became a sort of rebbe "
In the coffee table picture book, put out by the Kew Garden Chernobler Einikel.Their is a very friendly picture of DR Issac with Reb Mottel Rachmistrivker Z"l, I am very curious to know Dr Issacs relationship with RYY of New Square, I once heard from a Skverer Einikel a little negative vibes on the old Tolner father of of the professor.On the other hand there is a nice Hesped from his mechutan RJBS,
Schneur
ReplyDelete"Monoshtritzer who was the greatest"
did he write the sefer Erkai Yeshuai a handbook on Kabala, a intersting sefer?
Reb Yochonon also organized a study group of Banshak in NY to study together and farbreng together. I believe my friend rabbi Twersky of Queens son of the Chotimer and nephew of rabbi SZ Gurary ZL showed me a picture of the group.
ReplyDeleteAs the Divre Yoel said "amol zaynene da geven shenere Yiden vi haynt ober zey hoben nit apgehit chinuch habanim."
A bit of a guzma, but there were soem real frum Yidden here but there was no hamshacha.
Schneur
ReplyDelete"and a put down of litvishe Rabbonim."
I don't look at it as a putdown, it just is not in the Belzer style, to sent to Lita etc... It does not ring true
Schneur
ReplyDeleteis the picture printed in is book?
Btw, tell you friend that the CDS of his father that he added to the book, does not bring respect to his father.
History is not always what it seems to be.
ReplyDeleteMaimonidies School existed in Boston since the 1930's yet the Talner rebbe sent his son Isidore to Boston Latin School. He clearly wanted him to have only the best secualr education.Unlike the bostoner rebbe rav LYH he was not sent to Tore Vedaas.
I know my friends here in WH will kill me for writing this , but let me do it anyway, the rav was not very happy about the shidduch with his daughter and IT.
He was not a lamdan but a student at Hebrew University.
It then became a reality and the Rav compelled IT to study with him - Shaas and Poskim and IT was awarded a semicha from RIETS without him ever spending much time here. He clearly knew his RAMBAM.
From what I heard Rav JBS was not excited about his mechuttan either. A hesped of course ! why not deliver a quality hesped(could the rav give a different type of hesped) to the other granfather of his grandchildren ? But contrary to many of the yolden here , the shidduch was not an obvious thing. there were other more chashuve rabbonim in greater Boston than Rav Twersky.Kvodo bemkmo munach.
Again my eylem does not wish to hear it , but BG told me several times that Grandfather ZTL (Rayaatz) wanted him to marry the rav's daughter and so he BSG went to Riets "zu bakennen zich mit derech halimmud" and the cheftza and gavra to try to use the Brisker dictionary.. But BSG was already in "love" with Berel Haskind's daughter Minna and the rest is or is not history.
Perhaps Anash hailing from Boston can tell us about the relationship of the Talner Rebbe there with the Rebbe and Anash. I know of no interaction.
Schneur
ReplyDelete"Of course there was the Malach himself who made a Revoltion here on the backs of other Anash who also planted seeds here"
on how many families did he have influence? 50? 40? 15?
There was also a Tolner Rebbe in Montreal who ended up in Yerushalayim.
ReplyDeleteI have heard claims that he fled to E"Y to escape prosecution for financial shenanigans. This I doubt unless it was a case of just not knowing how to account for legitimate collections that went to legitimate chessed or upkeep of a shul (like Rav Shaul Kassin who got entangled with Solomon Drek).
What I do suspect is that he was unable to find his place in Montreal, felt redundant or irrelevant there, and just moved on.
BG told me several times that Grandfather ZTL (Rayaatz) wanted him to marry the rav's daughter and so he BSG went to Riets "zu bakennen zich mit derech halimmud"
ReplyDelete--
LOL. I think Bere Moicher Sforim had a very exaggerated opinion of himself and his place in the world. Kind of like his 2 remaining Chassidim, Schneur and Shmarya (the Failed One). The only thing I do accept is that no one wanted him to marry Minna and she may have been the one behind all the rishus.
The Malach;s followers were the first young bachurim and yungeleit in America as a group to dress Chassidic speak Yiddish and behave in a real chassiidc derech in regards one's family.
ReplyDeleteThey were also the 1st Americans under old age to study chassidic doctrines and its texts as a group.
Yes this was a Revolution.Before 1940 Chassiduth in America was for Rebbes who made their living from it and old men and women who believed in their kochos.The Malach took American born young men and inspired them in a Chasidic life.
This may not suit the writers of history by CH people , but it is the truth.
I met the Chotiner several times . He was such an erliche yid without ginunei malchus without shtick , without ego dressed like a simple Yid from the Lower east side , he did not seek mind control, he did not seek other peoples money to do things most rebbes today know they can not do, in many ways tht is the way the Besht was in my imagination. Do you guys imagine the BESHT sitting on a throne with Gold begadim and ahuge shtreimel and and a gold tipped walking stick ?
ReplyDeleteI guess he was good enough for the Holy Kopishnitzner to take him as an eidem along with Rabbi Zalman Gurary and he raised nice kids who honor their family.
The Chotiner worked with Yidden from the Shearis hapleita and later on Russian Jews .
Regardless, the Malochim had no hemshech. They were a footnote in Jewish history and the Malach himself sounded like a combination of Berland and Helbrans. The Malach's own brother's family are as mainstream Chabad as you can get. They are the Levy's of OK Kashrus.
ReplyDeleteThe sane Malochim like Gertner of Yossele Schichmacher fame went over to Satmar as soon as Reb Yoilish established himself. A few even went over to Chabad (Zirkind, Blesovsky??)
The lone meshuggener Moloch left today is Weberman of the Neturei Karta, whose father was also zeyr shtark tzu dreyt. His cousin is on trial for molestation. A gitte mishpuche.
Do you guys imagine the BESHT sitting on a throne with Gold begadim and ahuge shtreimel and and a gold tipped walking stick ?
ReplyDelete--
Nope. I imagine him giving dollars to Yidden every Sunday rather than taking dollars from Yidden for himself. And I imagine him saying that you don't get tired when you count diamonds.
Even the great tzaddik who said that the derech of the Besh't is forgotten was actually closer to much of what the Besht stood for (minus the kanois) than today's rebbelach are.
Also, the Malochim were kanoim, not Chassidim of the type either the Besht or the Alter Rebbe envisioned.
ReplyDeleteEven though der Malach was not from any place even remotely near Maramures or however you spell it, or even from Karpatia for that matter, that was his style.
The story as his followers tell it between the Malach and the Rebbe Rashab shows nothing other than the foresight of the Rebbe Rashab. The Malach supposedly caught the Rayatz, whom he tutored, reading an innocuous secular book along the lines of Sherlock Holmes, and he moisered to the Rashab. The Rashab ignored the Malach, more than perhaps knowing that his successor, and even more so his successor's successor, would need to be able to reach those who spent their entire youth reading Sherlock Holmes (as well as Howl, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Stephen Jay Gould's books full of lies and kefira, Graetz's so-called Jewish history series, etc, etc).
The Rebbe Rashab also knew that his son was on a level sufficient to be able to handle a little beis kisse reading outside the beis kisse without ending up in the beis kisse beruchnius.
The Malach then became a kanoi who attracted a handful of kanoim. His contribution compared to that of the Rayatz is like a feather versus a ton of gold.
Wasn't there a Tanya shiur in Torah voDaas of "Mr Mendlowitz"'s days until he stopped it because of the Malochim? Many if not all of the Malochim came from the original Torah voDaas of R' Shraga Feivel Mendelowitz.
ReplyDeleteI have also heard that R' Yaakov Yosef Herman was a Malach at some time during his life. His kanois was understandable, and he really was a kanoi, because he was surrounded by Jews who were falling one by one and he wanted to make sure he and his family were as different from their surroundings as possible.
R' Herman's descendants are not kanoim by any means; Rebbetzin Shain is certainly not a kanois and I doubt Rebbetzin Scheinberger was either. They are also not Chassidim and neither was he originally even if he did go over to the Malochim (which may or may not be correct).
Fact check the Levy's being desc of the brother of the Malach. Please check this fact. I recall that the relationship was of a different kind. I would be interested in hearing from Knowledgeable people out there.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is , it does not matter who or how many people followed the Malach(who had no intention of satrting a chavraya or of playing the role of rebbe) and his teachings but the Mlochim were the first young people in America to foster a Chassidic life style.
Rabbi Weberman etc. There is still a Mlochim community today IN Williamsburg and names like Weberman , Flohr , and Dershowitz are still involved in Jewish life. they have a shul Nesivos Olam.
I do not agree with their political shitah and have expressed my views on their take of Chabad years ago (viseyn geredt kamah peomim bearichus), but no one can take away their importance in the hsitory of orthodoxy in America. they were also the first to advocate Torah only as even RSFM had a excellent Englsih dept at TVD the same is true of RJJ,MTJ RCB vechuli. Even Bedford and Dean had a secular studies dept. So for thsoe of us who think that the Old Tyme Religion excludes secular studies the Malach and his boyes were the first to create a community around this idea.
The Rayaatz only came to America after the Malach died, and obviously men like the Malach, I. Jacobson and others(the Kramer family on an organizational level) laid the groundwork fort he Rayaatz's work, but the Malach and his followers created the first community of young Chassidim in America.
It seems anyone who disagrees with the Lubavitcher viewpoint is a Baal gayva, I have been obviously correctly called that, BG who is in eylem hemes has now been called that. I wonder why you Anonymous ( by being so you are TAKKE a richtike anav) know so much about baale gaave. May I take a guess in some of the circles around you anyone who reads a book is called a baal gayve,( an anv reads the NY Post or Daily News) let alone a man - BSG_who studied at Johns Hopkins , Columbia and was the grandson of the Rayaatz and a friend of the Nasi hador.
ReplyDeleteFact check the Levy's being desc of the brother of the Malach. Please check this fact. I recall that the relationship was of a different kind. I would be interested in hearing from Knowledgeable people out there.
ReplyDeleteR' Don Yoel Levy's son-in-law, (Hanoka) who is very knowledgeable in general, told me this. I also thought the relationship was a different one. IIRC R' Berel Levy's father AH was the "Malach's" brother. It makes sense because both families emigrated to the US before the Rayatz did and it was a time when names were mangled so that one becoming Levin and one Levy makes sense for that era.
They are Cohanim and not Leviim. I never asked Yitzchok how a Cohen ended up with the name Levin/Levy, but they aren't the only ones. There is a Chabad family Lewin (German spelling of Levin) in France who are Cohanim - maybe it was a way of escaping the Czarist army by confusing the authorities. I don't know if the family in France are also related to OK/Malach.
The Malochim shul in Willy is as insignificant as the NK shul in Monsey would be if no one gave the NK any attention. It is a curiosity, nothing more. The Malochim don't have a pool of people for shidduchim within the community so it cannot survive in any real form for much longer.
Malach and his followers created the first community of young Chassidim in America.
ReplyDeleteNo, replace Chassidim with kanoim. Studying Chassidus does not make you a Chossid. They were the first kanoim in the US.
I read books, the NYTimes, the JPost, Der Blatt, Maariv and Yediot when in EY, the Economist when time permits - in the beis kisse (or online).
ReplyDeleteHave you ever been mekarev a single Jew, Schneur? You sit in an ivory tower where everyone is Shomer Shabbos, and you have no idea how to reach a Yid of today any more than you knew how to reach the disaffected youth of the 1960's. No, the PR and glitz are not what Chabad should be about. But Chabad always lived in the real world, and the real world today is PR, glitz and the Internet. Chabad tries to uplift all that for Yiddishkeit, and 90% of the shluchim do just that. A few fall and a few fail - such is golus.
The Rebbe always looked out for Bere and Bere Moicher Sforim stabbed him in the back. Bere thought the nesius should have been in his family and he was wrong. What would Yiddishkeit in America have looked like if the Rashag had become Rebbe? Maybe you would be the equivalent of Yudel Krinsky today - except that you would be sitting in an empty office giving an occasional interview to the Forward.
Is it the beard or gartel that makes you a chasid or a donation to your local Chabad rep ?
ReplyDeleteKanoim and Chassidim so Uriel Zimmer was not a chasid , how about Rav Chaim Noe of Jslm after all he was a farbrente Edanik, and the secy of Chief rabbi Chaim Sonnenfeld of the eda , how about the Malach himslef , he too was not a chasid ?
Levine was not the Malachs real name.
The shul is still large enough to have a yat Kislev gathering.
Weberman:
ReplyDeleteAn ehrlicher Rav in Florida who may be connected with Chabad.
A meshuggener who burns the flag every Peerim in Willy as he dances to the Chabad "Vekol Karnei Reshoim."
A pervert in the dock for molestation.
Dershowitz:
What happened to Yitzchok Dershowitz's children in EY? He was quite an adventurer. He ended up working for Peeylim which is now an unofficial Chabad organization called Yad leAchim. The Rebbe did much for Peeylim behind the scenes as he wanted it to remain outside Lubavitch.
We all know who Alan Dershowitz is. A showman who reminds me of Boteach - whichever way the wind blows toward the bank, he blows.
Other Dershowitz descendants are modern-Zionist - I know them personally.
Flohr:
Brings to mind a Judaica store in BP and not much else.
anon
ReplyDeleteFlohr in Monsey you forgot about
R' Don Yoel Levy's son-in-law, (Hanoka) who is very knowledgeable in general, told me this. I also thought the relationship was a different one. IIRC R' Berel Levy's father AH was the "Malach's" brother. It makes sense because both families emigrated to the US before the Rayatz did and it was a time when names were mangled so that one becoming Levin and one Levy makes sense for that era.
ReplyDelete--
I must say though that when he told me this he sounded a little unsure of himself. Maybe it is not correct but the Levys are related to the Malach in some way. I'd like to know as well; I lost my contact info for any of the Levys and I'm nowhere near them right now. I have one person I can ask to ask his Levy relative by marriage but I know I won't remember.
Uriel Zimmer was not a chasid
ReplyDeleteUriel Zimmer was a chossid of the Rebbe, not a member of the Chabad community. There were many Chassidim of the Rebbe who were not Chabad Chassidim per se. Such was the Rebbe's influence.
R' Chaim Noeh - did he live to see the Dor haShvii? The Rebbe Rashab was firmly in the anti-Zionist camp.
But the Malochim were not Chassidim. They were cultists with a cult leader who happened to learn Chassidus. Comparing the Malach to Berland or Schick would be very accurate (Helbrans would be pushing it) - those 2 may claim they are following Breslov but they are just using the name and a bit of the Torah of Breslov to control and manipulate their followers.
Flohr in Monsey you forgot about
ReplyDelete--
Vee iz Monsey? Is det where I left dee cover far the grape juice on my way to the Spinka tish where you can no longer drink wine or mashke?
Levy is obviously not the kashrus family's real name either. They are Cohanim. So was the Malach.
ReplyDeleteI still don't see a reason for this site to go on, All we have is Schneur mevaze the Rebbe, sandwiched with a little info on russian Jewry . The chabad bashing on this site is terrible. The Baal Hablog is not refuting them
ReplyDeletewhat is the purpose of this blog
Hirshel
ReplyDelete"Is it the beard or gartel that makes you a chasid or a donation to your local Chabad rep ?"
one day you have to read Schneurs rant that Chabad is modern dressed and today Schneur makes fun of the chasidic garb,he is a obsessive hater
What is the purpose of the blog?
EVERYBODY CALM DOWN, PLEASE
ReplyDeleteRabbi Noe died after the death of the Rayaatz. So was he a chasid ? I thought the Rebbe told some NK people that we in Lubavitch are the richtike Neturei Karta (did he tell this to rav Cohen the rosh kollel of Kfar chabad ? I think so)Sp in that case all of luabvitch are Kanoim !
ReplyDeleteYou guys out there have no idea who the Malach was, the man had no interest in being a cult leader. He was an alte White Russian Yid living in the bronx as a rav in a Nusach Ari shul and wasa memebr of the board of Aguch at that time. He was a gor opgehitener yid by all accounts.
RSFM discovered him and brought his boys to meet him and study Dach with him. Rav Levine was probably never even in TVD or Williamsburg. He was an alte Chassiidc jew who had undergone lots of personal zaros. A cult leader ? By the way if he was a cult leader do you guys think reb Baruch baer and Reb Chaim Brisker would give him kavod MLochim 9excuse the pun)?
Did he try to control anyone's life . Was he a REbbe ? Did he have a shul for his talmidim. After he died another zubrochene Yid led the group as a rav but not as a rebbe. Todays rav is another Yid who learns all day and has no pretensions of being able to act lemaale miderech hateva.
I have little symapthy for their politics and have little regard for them as Chabad people, but they were mekabel something from the Malach. And the Mlochim and their leader were never in the geder of a cult --- a sect yes but a cult with mind control and charasmatic leadership as the rabbonim you mention, shows you know nothing about the Malach.
I just don;t understand why you guys can't fargin him a place in the history of orthodox judaism in America ?
Anonymous says.
ReplyDeleteI am happy that you finally got all of that off your chest.
Now you must feel much better and my only suggestion is to say the Tikkun Haklloli a few times. You may feel even better.
When you finish that say the Rebbe Reb Elimelechs zetel katan , do baruigt di Nerven - baduk umenuse
As Reb Nachman said "Kain Yisyush is gor not farhanden" ,so there is hope for you and me.
The Malach was a footnote, an interesting footnote, nothing more and nothing less. Yes, he tried to control his talmidim - why would they have adopted the levush otherwise? He may have inspired Gertner to start Golden Flow, but I don't think they were the first brand of CY in the US - only that they used underhanded tactics to control the price (though that may have been after Gertner sold the firm).
ReplyDeleteHe was a cult leader, and your portrayal of him has more holes than Swiss cheese. He was a zero until he came to TVD and then he took talmidim of TVD into his cult. RSFM threw him out. When Rav Wechter did far less than that, you and your ilk excused his having been beaten up.
Did anyone at the time understand cults? The Moonies made people aware of cults and they came far later. Were Reb Chaim Brisker and Reb Boruch Ber infallible? Many gave kovod to Berland in the old days too, and it is only now that we know who he really is and how far off center he is. He is tzubrochen in the same way the Malach was and he also had tzoris.
The Rebbe gave kovod to people he disagreed with as well; the only time he didn't was with the baiter from Bnei Brak. (Ed Koch also has a nice bubbamaise about the Rebbe in his book, but Koch is a fruit and a nut who was disappointed to find out that Crown Heights could not bring him very many votes because it isn't half as big as outsiders think it is).
Reliable askonim even supported Helbrans until they knew better.
The Rebbe said that if NK did not do what they did, he would have to.
ReplyDeleteBut that was the real NK, not today's wannabes like Weberman who belongs in a padded cell.
Why the Tikun Klali? Na Nach Nachma Nachman meUman will do the trick.
ReplyDeletethe interesting thing about the malach that he was niftar more then seventy years ago and he still wakes up mix feelings or you like him or you hate him him there is no middle way with the malach
ReplyDeletehis letters have been probably been printed quiet a few times probably at this moment out of print hundreds of yidden revere his name learn his letters want to know more about him these yidden do not descend from white Russia they descend from topolshan serdehel tokay pest miskolcz
this is the strength of emess who at all forces these people to learn his letters i remember in my yeshiva in bnei brak a litvishe yeshiva a boucur a grandson from a malach came to learn from the states his grandfather gave him a present the letters of the malach to look in while he is in eretz yisroel after a half year there was not one bocur in shiur (it was a shiur of around 30 litivisher bocurim )who had not looked in the malach letters and made copies of the sefer
by all these people the malach is not just a footnote of history but a rebbe whose letters are relevant today as they were seventy years ago
The only people who can truly appreciate the "Malech" are very old school Lubavitchers whose minds have not been brainwashed by the hishkasrus nonsense.I don't know if such people still exist. He was an old White Russian Jew who lived and breathed learning and Hassidus Habad.So he wasn't mekusher,big deal!He clearly was a heiliker yid.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that "old school" ever existed, my friend. There may have been individuals that thought that way, but Hiskashrus IS old school.
ReplyDeleteBut enjoy your ignorance!
I actually do not hate the Malach or the Malochim at all. If I did I would call him "Levine" and not the Malach. Chabad even mentions him in a positive light on the Chabad.org somewhere and no one has any problem with Rav Zirkind in CH who is said to be a semi-Malach.
ReplyDeleteThey belonged to a short blip of time on the radar screen of history. Today they would be a Berland or Schick type cult, and the proof is in the Golden Flow pudding - the normal folk went elsewhere and the only chugim where a tzudrayter like Weberman has a place are Ku Klux Karta and the rump Malochim.
Except that Reb Amram ZYA was a tremendous baal chesed who never tried to control anyone and more of an askan than a rebbe, you could call the Malach the Reb Amram of America. Reb Amram was a daas yochid and his kanois was very real. I think the Malach was motivated a bit by jealousy of the Rayatz and evening scores but he did pave the way for Satmar, and I consider Satmar a very positive development.
What I hate is our amateur historian trying to use the Malochim to beat Chabad. The Malochim were infintesimal and very temporary. Chabad is not what it was 30 years ago, but neither is the world. And Chabad dor hashvii was not the previous Chabad because it was transplanted to a different world. Yet, it survives and thrives no matter where it is planted.
Hirshel-You compare hishkasrus of a chosid who saw his Rebbe once every three years,heard a maymer,[maybe] and then went home for another three years to the flood of information overload coming out of 770 in the last 60 years.That this was the case before the war I know from talking to old chassidim and from the Freirdiker Rebbe's memoirs. In dor shevii there were farbrengens and updates every montik and donershtik transmitted by telephone,radio,and video. How do you compare the two? Even before the war how often did a chosid see or hear the Rayatz or Rashab? You answer me.The word hishkasrus is the same but it meant something completely different.Reb Yankev Landau wasn't a chabad chosid? How often did he see the Rebbe and how close was he to the Rebbe.He wasn't the only one.Sorry,the new 24/7 hishkasrus is an invention of dor shevii.You can call me "ignorant" but you risk beginning to sound like some of your bloggers.You weren't disqualified from being a chosid chabad in the alter heim if you didn't "write" to the Rebbe on a regular basis. Many never wrote at all and remained chassidishe yidn in every sense of the word.The Malach's lack of hishkasrus didn't make him ois chosid. That's hard for dor shevii to understand.
ReplyDeleteHirshel
ReplyDeleteanother day with lies and ignorance on the Rebbe, with no one to refute them
What is the purpose of the blog?
the purpose is for you to refute it...
ReplyDeletethe fact stays fact that seventy years after his petirah the malach still leave a impression with his letters in the heads and hearts of hundred of yidden so you cannot call him to quote "They belonged to a short blip of time on the radar screen of history"
ReplyDeleteall the people you mention berland or shick i wonder seventy years after their demise will anybody be interested in them or their letters?
where i come from the rebbe the ryat"z is held as a tzadik hador as my rebbe hashem should give him arichas yomim v shonim says the holy eyes of the ryat"z were like two spotlights and when you went ion to yechidus you felt they were going thru and thre your head
Just to show you how "chassidish" the "malach" was:עם גניזת ארון הקודש של הצמח צדק גם חכמת חב''ד נגנזה עמו These are his own words cited in Sichroin Divre HaRav. You can see the outcome of his twisted mind in his nochshleppers whose understanding of Chassidishkayt consists of tearing out the frontpages of Kehos seforim
ReplyDeleteThe Malach himself made it clear he was ois chossid. He may have followed Chabad, but so did Kopust, Staroshelye etc. He was just a short-lived and small breakaway leader or teacher.
ReplyDeleteThe Malach's letters are similar to Schick's books. A bit of momentary inspiration to some, but largely fringe material. Since there will always be marginal people who are inspired by marginal leaders, there is always room for the Malach, Schick, Berland, Helbrans and the Na Nachs, and yes, the yellow flags. Kanois is another story. I think it is an explosive reaction to the new technologically connected world in which we live, and it will soon detonate itself out of existence. Chabad uplifts the Internet, oisvorfen use it to ramble, and the kanoim ban it while their followers use the worst of it when no one is looking.
ReplyDeleteAnd there will always be the malcontents, the Schneurs, the Shmaryas, the Bergers etc, tilting at windmills out of jealousy.
Such is golus.
anon
ReplyDeletedo you belive that in seventy years time there will be yidden whose fathers and grand father had no kesher with Schick, Berland, Helbrans and the Na Nachs,and will be intrsestd in what they said and did like there is today with the malach
again the interesting thing about the malach that he was niftar more then seventy years ago and he still wakes up mix feelings or you like him or you hate him him there is no middle way with the malach
Who besides you is interested in the Malach's writings? He had a handful of followers and now only a fingerful claim any connection to him. Even Schneur is only interested in him as a (minor) historical figure.
ReplyDeleteConsidering Schick's books are available everywhere, someone who is either searching or who is obsessed with the chet of Onan will pick one up three generations from now, probably online.
On the other hand, how many people learn the Rebbe's sichas even in some abridged form and have no connection to Chabad? In three generations, there will be even more because people will be more and more fed up with these chometz ben yayin dynastic rebbes and those who find Breslov too radical or simplistic will flock to Chabad in places like Monsey and Heichal Menachem in BP (and BB).
Simple question: Was the Malach a hassidishe yid a'p toras hasidus habad?
ReplyDeleteSimple answer:Absolutely Yes.
By the way,why do you think he was called the" Malech?"And for your information he was called the "Malech" in der Alter Heim ven di velt iz noch geven a velt.
Anon
ReplyDelete"Simple answer:Absolutely Yes."
I am just coming in late in this Malech/Malach discussion,
But I will ask you a simpler question,
How much chabad chasidus did you see in the holy sefer of his(that is very popular in Salbodka Israel), Igros Kodesh ?
It his basically a anti Mishgal manifesto, with almost no refrence to chabad seforim.
Anon Malach/ Malech
ReplyDeleteDid you ever read Lemel Schwartz short biography on the Malach/ Malech?
Anon
ReplyDelete"and now only a fingerful claim any connection to him. Even Schneur is only interested in him as a (minor) "
this whole fascination with the Malach comes ,from his stance that he took against Chabad. The Malochim claim that Reb Chaim, Reb Mayer Simcha and many misnagdim gedolim were enamored of his gadlus in Torah and sifrie chakira. There are no letters or hard facts on the above, it is all half baked stories. Even the brisker family are believing this.
There is 1 reason, that they are buying anything, he was anti Chabad from inside. I am not here to diminish his personality, it is just a observation.
Maybe his real nickname was der Moloch?
ReplyDeleteHe had no connections with anyone but his followers, who found him somewhere because they were looking for more than TvD had to offer at the time.
There were no real Rebbes of note, so this is what they dredged up from the Bronx.
What Chabad would have looked like had Schneur had his way:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 30, 2012:
Today might be the last day on which Schneur Zalman A., former secretary to the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Sholom DovBer "Barry" Gurary, can call the practically abandoned hulk of 770 Eastern Parkway his home.
The building, which once belonged to the Lubavitch organization and served as its headquarters, had been mysteriously signed over to Gurary himself, and mortgaged, before Gurary's death in 2005.
Bank of America has been trying to foreclose on the mortgage for over three years now, and only A's status as a senior citizen and his use of various stalling tactics has allowed him to remain there rent-free.
Today it has become clear that A's has no legal right to remain in the building, as he has no legal proof that Gurary ever gave him the right to reside there. Bank of America has also applied to have the building condemned due to water damage and other hazardous conditions.
A, who is considered an amateur historian and harmless neighborhood character by the mixture of modern Orthodox former Chassidim, urban professionals and middle-class blacks who live in the area, has no heat or electricity ever since the home next to him was knocked down to prepare for the building of condominiums by its owner.
Gurary had presided over a dwindling following of Chassidim, as the already small, insular sect had lost much membership when his father, Rabbi Shmaryahu Gurary, passed away in 1989.....
the Malach was Shamash in the Beis Kneses Ari in the Bronx and someone discovered him, he had no intention of becoming a Rebbe
ReplyDeleteIn other words, it is the story of Saba NaNach. The NaNach crew found a senile old man in a nursing home and made a fool of him.
ReplyDeleteThe Malochim found a shamash and made a rebbe of him.
Then again, Chabad also is now run by the Rebbe's baal agule but it hardly matters because it is far bigger than any administrator and if the baal agule disappeared tomorrow, it would be as if nothing happened.
Anon8:52There are so many problems in Lubavitch today many of which are not even touched upon in this blog because of respect for the Baal Hoachsanyah,that I must say Lubavitch under a Rashag-Bere administration would not have been the end of life on planet Earth. There certainly would not be mentally ill "Hassidics" offering "toasts" to an upholstered red chair and there probably would not be a group of mekusharim trying to put their neighbors in the penitentiary.And maybe,just maybe,there'd be an educational system in place where people could actually learn enough mentchiskeit to conduct a normal conversation without resorting to viscious,personal insults.But then again what would we do without an army of 15 year olds in untucked Arrow shirts[no tails,please]and super-sized Borsalinos with those tell-tale kneitches in all"the right places?"I don't know about you but I'd be pretty darn depressed.
ReplyDeleteLOL.
ReplyDeleteEven the secular researchers who would do anything to prove Bere Moicher Sforim's father should have been rebbe admit that Bere had no regard for halacha. He would have had a small neo-Chassidic group on the fringes of modern Orthodoxy, in a little shul in the back of 770. The rest of 770 would have been used only for an occasional wedding or more likely levaya.
There would have been no Chabad under the other option, and either most of the Chassidim, especially the ones who left Russia after the war would have gone somewhere else and compelled the Rebbe to be Rebbe there or they would have fallen apart.
In fact had the other scenario taken place some of the Chassidim who did not leave until the 60's and 70's might well never have left and who knows where they would have ended up.
The real question is what Lubavitch would have been without all the New Age,macrobiotically induced, Esalen inspired,magic mushroomed,advanced astral projection, higher chassidic, BT consciousness?Would the eltere chassidim who came in the 60's and 70's have been "bakvem"without the likes of Carlos Castaneda and the chavraye kadisha from Berkeley to be mekabel ponim them?Me thinks not.Thankfully,these people who had suffered so much"in yene medineh" were not subject to culture shock and just "fit right in."The tofu latkes tasted just like the "yuzhke" they had in Sibir.
ReplyDeleteThe question is how many frum children alive today would not even have been born had Rashag, who was just not Rebbe material, been followed by Bere Moicher Sforim who was not shomer Torah uMitzvos.
ReplyDeleteThose eltere Chassidim and their children were the ones who were mekarev people away from Esalen and other nonsense in the 70's.
And I guess you would rather have fewer frum Yidden. Jews being involved in New Age dreck is a symptom of golus. Only the Rebbe and his true Chassidim could turn that around and direct people to real Yiddishkeit and Chassidus.
I happen to mix in both the world of old Russian chassidim and of New Age BT's and I have never had a single tofu latke or anything else remotely weird. If anything, gezhe families are avoiding unhealthy food like cane sugar and white flour now because of the BT influence. There are many health food stores and alternative medical practitioners in BP and Willy too - in fact there is only one small health food supplier in CH and it is just a couple of aisles in a typical NY sized pharmacy. (I happen to agree with Rav Avrohom Blumenkranz AH who called alternative medicine kishuf - sadly he was ill all his life and he knew all too well how these quacks prey on people. Healthy eating, as opposed to macrobiotics and other food fetishes, is another story.)
I think you regularly eat a species of mushroom that induces sinas chinam and jealousy.
And better the problems Lubavitch has than those of Skvere, Satmar or the Litvish yeshiva world.
ReplyDeleteAnon.3:06 At least 50% and perhaps a whole lot more of chasidei chabad are vilde meshichistn. They get kos shel brochoh from a red upholstered chair and give aliyes and kibudim to someone who is in olem haemes. They have taken over the main beis medrash and openly spout their combination of mental illness and kefirah to the whole world through a wide array of publications and web sites. This is something that is unheard of in any other Chassidus or yeshivishe group.While you can be proud of some things that have been accomplished under the name of Habad,this Meshichist insanity is without prescedent in the Jewish world in the past 300 years. Who laid the groundwork for this? The Rashag and his son Bere?Messichism is the direct result of events and conditions that existed before gimmel Tamuz.Were the Guraries running Lubavitch then? The moshiach frenzy that overtook Lubavitch was the the fault of the Rashag and Bere Gurarie?I am writing very diplomatically mipnei kevod achsanyeh.You figure the rest out yourself and reach your own conclusions.If you want credit for 3000 Habad houses all over the world then you have to take the blame for the same ideaology that also created the monster that is called Meshichism.And please don't tell me what the ziknei haHassidim thought about the Bts.Save that discussion for a BT who doesn't know any better.
ReplyDelete20-70 nuts a week get the kos shel brocho or dollars for real. A few go to enjoy some fun. Many is the enterprising fellow who has wanted to go through the line 100 times to bankrupt the nutters, but that is a good way of risking real trouble.
ReplyDeleteThe Gurarys would have made all of Chabad irrelevant and a historical footnote. Instead you have a huge successful movement that breathes life back into Judaism in places where it died decades ago - and these somewhat interesting Na Nach types with the flags who can't last more than a generation anyway.
What's more, with the way Chabad spread throughout the world, that beis medrash is almost irrelevant except as a symbol. I haven't been there in years and I have no reason to go.
The sons of the old Russians are the ones who were mekarev many of the first BT's. Now it is their grandsons who are at the forefront of shlichus.
Take some Prozac or Zoloft if you can't control your hatred and jealousy.
What's more, even the nuts and the relatively small amount of damage they cause compared to the damage caused by a Spitzer or a Kolko is a tribute to the open-tent policy of Chabad.
ReplyDeleteThose like myself who can't take what's going on in 770 have enough to do and enough places to go that we don't bemoan the circus there.
Glogover Gabai
ReplyDelete".And maybe,just maybe,there'd be an educational system in place where people could actually learn enough mentchiskeit to conduct a normal conversation without resorting to viscious,personal insults.But then again what would we do without an army of 15 year olds in untucked Arrow shirts[no tails,please]and super-sized Borsalinos with those tell-tale kneitches in all"the right places?"I don't know about you but I'd be pretty darn depressed."
you realy thing that a Lubacvicher has to answer you with respect.Just because you dont go for that Kniech?
is their some Rational in your words, I don't see a reason why a guy like Hirshel the Baal Hablog, puts up with a such a bowl of vomit. He still thinks he does a service for chabad.
I guess I thought that somehow him getting his hateful thoughts off his chest and you responding to him would help Chabad. But I see now that it will do no good.
ReplyDeleteGlogover Gabai
ReplyDelete"They get kos shel brochoh from a red upholstered chair and give aliyes and kibudim to someone who is in olem haemes. They have taken over the main beis medrash and openly spout their combination of me"
I don't see no difference in the level of Meshugaz, between saying Lechaim to a empty chair in 770, then saying lechaim to a spiritual death person on 48th st in BP?
Grogover gabai,
ReplyDelete"Messichism is the direct result of events and conditions that existed before gimmel Tamuz.Were the Guraries running Lubavitch then? The moshiach frenzy that overtook Lubavitch was the the fault of the Rashag and Bere Gurarie?"
the Rebbe does not have to apologize for talking , crying, nudging on Moshiach,. It is a yesoid of emunah and the apologies has to come from gedolim that did not emphasize on it. 16 years have passed since Gimmel Tamuz, and all you have is, Kraus from Argentina and some idiots from Australia. Imagine crying on all orthodoxy because a Rav a menuval like Lieb Troper.
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteThis idiot thinks now that since nobody in Chabad is smart enough to explain the difference between the Rebbe and the dislexic Bere, then he won on the PR war, and he sees fault in Chabad educational system. Let him check in by some doctor and get off your blog.
You are extremely naive to think that this venom has to go on your blog.
For gods sake just delete them....
I think the Tzig does do a service here. When you see the haters come out of the woodwork, whether with pseudo-history, rambling hatred or just plain old sinas chinam, it can only reinforce your confidence that Chabad is on the right track and the haters are as passe as 8-track.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDelete"the Malach was Shamash in the Beis Kneses Ari in the Bronx and someone discovered him"
it is not true, the Malach was the Rav in that shul I know some people that used to daven by him.
Thank you for calling me a "bowl of vomit." That's completely appropriate for my comment about a "kneitch"on a hat? Are Lubavitchers so beyond reproach that any criticism requires management with Zoloft and Prozac?By the way last acharon shel Pesach hundreds passed for imaginary kos shel bracha. There is a You Tube video to prove it.Anyone can watch it,even a so called Lubavitcher.The real hate is that which is saved for the Rashag,Bere,Reb Chaim Lieberman,Reb.Chana G. and anyone else who questioned the authority of dor shevii.I argue on facts and you call me a "bowl of vomit." I rest my case.
ReplyDeleteBere was dyslexic? Why did he steal sforim if he could not read them LOL. Do you mean dysfunctional?
ReplyDeleteYawn. Many people pass through the line as a joke. I happen to have kos shel bracha myself from before gimmel tammuz and I give plenty of it out for kiddush Shabbos morning in shul.
ReplyDeleteCould be that some people think the wine being given out is also prepared from authentic kos shel brocho so they put up with the nonsense to get what they want.
Gorogover
ReplyDelete"Are Lubavitchers so beyond reproach that any criticism requires management"
is that what you call rational criticism?