Thanks. Hopefully in due course you'll be able to give us a more level headed assessment as without wishing to diminish from his greatness in any way he was more renown as a pious figurehead and fundraiser for Mir than a 'godel'. I have heard no great pronouncements of his and nor did I read in his lifetime anything exceptional on his learning.
ende pey tzadik you are clueless. But I don't want to get in flame-mode.
Reb Nosson Tzvi was not called by or known by anyone as R'Nota Hersh.
He was an incredible human being and amazing Jew and Rosh Yeshiva. What he accomplished in the Mir, in the midst of visible and very real yisurim of Parkinsons Disease, was breath-taking. And I am not talking about number of bochurim or buildings or budgets. The caliber of learning, b'revach, the quality, the shiurim which I attended, the ability to be medayeik a Rashi or Tosfos, oy this is a real loss, a tangible loss. Not only for the yeshiva, Mir, Brachfeld etc. but also for yechidim. I was one of those yechidim who knew he could walk into his dira and ask to meet with him. Whenever a rabbi dies, everybody gets into hyperbole mode with "Dor Yossom" talk and all that. This now is a real loss, and in one year and beyond, everyone with eyes will see it clearly.
Dovy in Jersey, if it is moronic to ask for a fair assessment of a man's life then I count myself proudly in and I'm afraid you may be in the wrong place.
Yehupitz, I didn't know him and didn't pretend to know him and I was commenting on the fact that I heard relatively little of substance from of of him.
I have however heard of Mir and the 'big name' is supposed to be Arieli. I also know that for the last 20 odd years at least Mir has been the biggest cliche in the book. It's where Satmare bochurim and many others enroll to get some litvishe gloss. There was and is no entrance exam and no assessment and all you do is rent a dire, arrange a chavruse and the shadchen can say 'er lernt in mir' to which your chavruse will testify. On the other hand it retained its international character and didn't go to the dogs like ponevitch.
(It so happens that my son's thinking of Mir and I'm trying to dissuade him. Now he's considering South Fallsburg but that may be as a fast track to R' Avrohom Yehosua.)
ende tzadik, the big name is ROA because he's a magid siur, not a RY, completely andere parshe interms of entrance exams, my father got one from RNP, and, although it wasn't admittedly the most challenging faher, bochurim did have to say a shtikel to the RY
He was not just a figurehead or a fundraiser. He was not just someone available for the bochurim. He set the standard of how to treat kollel yungeleit. Instead of being stuffing for a beis hamedrash, they are important as individuals, and should be renumerated as such. We needed him in Lakewood.
And Rabbi Finkel says, "It was during this defining moment that we learned the power of the human spirit, because we pushed the blanket to five others."
"(It so happens that my son's thinking of Mir and I'm trying to dissuade him. Now he's considering South Fallsburg but that may be as a fast track to R' Avrohom Yehosua.)"
Anon, well spotted. We serve it for breakfast in our home. But perhaps we'll feel better after the certainties that are bound to appear in coming issue of Mishpacha and Yated.
One does not look at Mir and South Fallsburg as two equal possibilities. They are so different in atmosphere, purpose etc. And a bochur considering one for good reasons specific to that place doesn't even consider the second one. I'm not judging either place. I'm saying it's apples and oranges.
I had an awful time at the Mir, felt like an ant in an ant-farm skyscraper. Yet even as I had difficulties acclamating to the giganticness of it all, I knew then and still know now that it was a formative learning experience, and my short amounts of time with R Nosson Tzvi was time that I would never trade in.
With all due respect to Mr. Starbucks, how can anyone, no matter how great, claim to know "THE" lesson of the holocaust? Sure, there are hundreds of things we can learn--but THE lesson? And for every person that shared his blanket I'm sure you can find another one, like some of the kappos, who through their bretheren under the bus to save themselves.
RNTF seems to have had a normal healthy American childhood. Student council, sports, girls in class. Despite these "handicaps" he became a beloved Rosh Yeshiva. YU in the hesped claims him as one of their own. An MO that succeeded in the black hat world. Our educational system is headed in the other direction away from a semblance of normalcy. Here in Peoria, on a daily basis, I hear small stories in our schools that are absurd. These so called "mechanchim" are stealing the youth of our children. There is no restitution for a lost childhood.
>>Thanks. Hopefully in due course you'll be able to give us a more level headed assessment as without wishing to diminish from his greatness in any way he was more renown as a pious figurehead and fundraiser for Mir than a 'godel'.
This was an inane thing to write, as it is illustrative of your ignorance of the facts. This is not to diminish you, of course, it is just a level headed assessment of your confusion and ignorance of this specific issue.
>>I have heard no great pronouncements of his and nor did I read in his lifetime anything exceptional on his learning.
A prolific writer. A Judaic scholar. A research scientist. What do you want to become?
Each year as our graduates leave the halls of the Academy, we are proud of who they have become—fine, mature, committed, cultured and dedicated Jewish young adults. We are also proud of the many awards they receive, including: university academic scholarships, National Merit Scholarships and Illinois State Scholar awards. Our graduates continue their education by attending the finest universities in America and abroad in addition to the finest yeshivot and seminaries in Israel.
Inane? perhaps but no less so than the articles being written as we talk. And since conventional sources are unlikely to provide the answers one must sometimes pose inane questions to separate the chaff from the wheat. Interesting though that the only significant tale so far comes from a cholov akum merchant and other than building up Mir no one has provided any anecdote of vignette of greatness.
>>Inane? perhaps but no less so than the articles being written as we talk.
This sentence, too is illustrative of your profound ignorance.
>>And since conventional sources are unlikely to provide the answers one must sometimes pose inane questions to separate the chaff from the wheat. Interesting though that the only significant tale so far comes from a cholov akum merchant and other than building up Mir no one has provided any anecdote of vignette of greatness.
Having known him for many years, I would like to add my understanding of where his "gadlus" lay. He grew up a typical modern American kid. He was naturally a "good soul" who wouldn't harm a fly, and was always with a smile. That's nice but that's not his unique gadlus. However, at around age 17 he went to Eretz Yisroel, and saw a world of ruchnius that he never knew existed. His cousins in the Mir, R' Lazer Yudel, R' Chaim Schmelewitz, etc. had simple aprtments and lifestyles, and onlt lived and breathed Torah. He then decided to leave his comfortable world of Chicago, and being a Mirer ben-Torah of only Torah. That was the first step of his personal gadlus. He married a tzideikus who let him learn day and night literally, which he did. Even as an avreich in kolel, any American who wanted to learn with him he found time for. He was already sick with Parkinson's when he inherited the helm of the yeshiva. He could have lived out his life quietly just keeping up what he had, and nobody would have thought ill of him in his circumstances. But instead he went out and actively built building after building and taking upon himself the awesome responsibility of continuosly funding an ever-growing kolel - in his condition! That's his gadlus! He always retained his natural goodness and sweetness and treated every bochur and avreich with the greatest respect. That's also gadlus. Many people - even great ones - in his postion, slip in that area. There are deeper lamdonim than him, there are brighter ones, there are Roshei yeshiva who are more politically savvy, there are those with sharper and smarter remarks; but in mesiras nefesh for the learning and spreading of Torah and of love for bnei Torah and in mentchlichkeit he was unparalled in recent times, and was thus endeared to all who knew him.
He is being celebrated for creating a yeshiva of 6,000 with buildings and buildings. He sacrificed his life to create something that was not necessary and possibly harmful. Maybe his background instilled in him a need for empire building. to show some achievement at the class reunions.
Fed up, vos epess that creating a huge beis medrish with so many loimdey torah is harmful, and that there's no need? there's boatloads of torah going on there, despite what you may hear to the contrary from people who want to look like they're in the loop. the fact remains, if you're not learning by the time yu reach the Mir, in all probability, the Mir had little to do with that. these people wouldn't have done much better in a smaller yeshiva, however, since anyone can get into Mir, masmidim with batlanim, they choose to chill in Mir. the fact remains, if you're in the beis medrish, you're most probably learning, and thousands of people have benefited greatly from that
Anon "For comparison it would be worthwhile to count the differences between RNTF and The LR funereal" aren"t you a Litvak? Because Misnagdim live for the funeral
1) the turnout 100 times more then the the funeral of the LR 2) was there any dancing with A trumpeter by RNTF funeral ? 3) there is a memala mukem. 4) people were crying not confused
Does anyone here know if there's a High School picture of the heilige Tanna Reb Akiva? Tzig. I wonder what the 'karpen kep' here would have to say, if you posted it. To quote my uncle Chatzkel "Er iz shoin geshtorben... Luz im leiben".
"This past summer, Rav Finkel, despite his debilitating physical condition, traveled overseas as Yeshivas Mir-Yerushalayim found itself with debts of $15 million.
With a current debt of approximately $10 million, the yeshiva of 7,600 talmidim - the largest makom Torah in the world - is in dire straits. Yungeleit at the yeshiva haven’t received stipends since Pesach time."
This is one of the reasons that I ask why we do we need a yeshiva for 6,000 excuse me 7,600.
What would happen if half when to work, you would still have a yeshiva of 3,800. The yeshiva budget would go down and there would be another 3,800 salaries that could help support the yeshiva. Trickle down effect. No deficit.
Another issue, In modern history - the last 2,000 years - there is no precedent of having a gargantuan yeshiva. It messes up the ecosystem just like Lakewood does. Sucking life out of everything else. Chodosh ossur min hatorah. We had a system where people learned and others worked. this destroys the fragile balance. Like introducing rabbits to Australia
Volohzhin had 400 to 500?
Seven thousand six hundred? Nothing gained. Law of diminishing returns.
Fed up, there's no "point," but it's a beis medrish for older bochrim who are assumed to have gained a miniscule amount of maturity over the years, and don't have to be babied up, m'hot shoin keinnisht tzeit far kindershpielin. if bochrim aren't going to learn, that's on their cheshbin. nowadays, unfortunately, the lack of this maturity is becoming a growing problem, and the more popular shiurim, (besides for ROA, who's just to big) REY, RYE, etc.. are starting to be more on top of the talmidim the fact remains, I don't see how the Mir is "pointless" or "harmful." If you're looking to learn, there's plenty of opportunity provided there
"if bochrim aren't going to learn, that's on their cheshbin. nowadays, unfortunately, the lack of this maturity is becoming a growing problem:
This is a societal problem. If the yeshiva would be smaller, it would force the immature ones to get out of the system. If the yeshiva continues to expand like the universe, then there is no incentive to get out.
"Anonymous said... 1) the turnout 100 times more then the the funeral of the LR 2) was there any dancing with A trumpeter by RNTF funeral ? 3) there is a memala mukem. 4) people were crying not confused" Well here we go with the numbers fetish again.Namely that the numerical turnout at a funeral determines the gadlus of an individual.Based on that assumption the last pope to die was not only the gadol hador R"L but the greatest godol of all time. As to "was there any dancing with A trumpeter by RNTF funeral". Yep!Lubavitch brought in the Marching band of the University of Upsala to accompany the Levayeh to Montifiore cemetery.You of course were at the Levayeh and witnessed the trumpeting with your own eyes.If you did I would say that you suffer from bi-polar delusional syndrome and need some serious help. "there is a memala mukem".So pray tell how does this add to the gadlus of the niftar and why has dynastic inheritance,usually attributed to Chassidishe Rebbes,become part of Litvish theology? "people were crying not confused" Kluging, feigned or otherwise has always been an integral part of Litvish practice and if the crying was anything like the crocodile tears shed by the maspid for Rebittzin Kanievsky,as shown on Utube and on this blog,I would assume that the crying of 100,000 must of backed up the drainage sewers of Jerusalem. The truth of the matter is that you sound quite "confused" yourself by posting your above pointless,inane and unnecessary comment. Since you brought up the numbers racket,and without malice of forethought or lack of respect for Rav Finkel Z"l,I wonder how many people will show up at the kever of the niftar on his Yahrtzeit? Will it equal the thousands of Jews of all flavors of Yiddishkeit that come to the Lubavitcher Rebbes ohel on his yahrtzeit? Just wondering.
fed up, how do you think they stayed in the system until now? if they were forced to get out, what exactly would they be doing with their lives? they obviously don't have a concept of going out to work if they're still in yeshiva at 21 or 22 and haven't learnt a word
in the promo pictures for the mir they put the title harav hagaon by a number of people in the finkel family but deliberately omit it from rav arieli who is easily the lamdan hadoir. they also put it in a lower row to remove any doubt that he is NOT a RY nor does he have any power. they have made his life miserable by refusing to give him a normal place to say shiur for many years and by turning the mir from the elite yeshiva it was by r nichum into a yeshiva where no really good buchor would want to go. he is the memale mokom of his shver r nochum, the previous lamdan hador, who was a full fledged RYand deserved to be made a RY twenty years ago.
very similar abuses go on in many of the major yeshivas. yeshivas have become corporate business run by cuththroat cheif exeutives who will protect their turf at all costs. religion and g-d have nothing to with that equation.
and by turning the mir from the elite yeshiva it was by r nichum into a yeshiva where no really good buchor would want to go nonsense. it's the same general demographic as it has been for a long time; a big free-for-all yeshiva where there are plenty of toginacht-beinkel zitsers and plenty of people who don't know what the inside cover of a gemora looks like. that being said, look at the kind of bochurim who learn in ROA shiur, plenty of masmidim and lomdonim to choose from. if it's not considered a desirable yeshiva, the only fault of the hanhala is not having a last name that rhymes with shmoleveitchik, or perhaps more recently, shmaplan
yoske correct after not getting to shmuleveitchik, as his fourth default option, a good bochur hangs out in mir by roa till some seats open up by aj. go to any elite yeshiva in america and ask how many are looking into mir as a first option. thats why rao has been trying to leave the mir for the last couple of years. out of seven hundred guys warming the seats in his shiur if a minyan know what hes really alking about its alot. rav shteinman told him he has to stay. it has nothing to do with last names it has to do with how you run a yeshiva. elite bochurim would naturally gravitate to roa and give him a power base in the yeshiva. to thwart that they have this open door policy which is akin to the law of return. if your jewish your in. im not knocking the oilam learning there i'm merely saying that good buchrim who get there and develop its usually by default not by design. all this stuff are open secrets among the mirrer oilam. must alumni who support roa are totally outraged by the way hes treated by the finkels.
memoozzuggendeemes said... very similar abuses go on in many of the major yeshivas. yeshivas have become corporate business run by cuththroat cheif exeutives who will protect their turf at all costs"
you've very articulately described the current matzav in many chassidishe hoifs and the litvaks have picked up the same meshuggas. It used to be an unofficial system that a RY would find an aidem who has the learning, leadership, and finfte cheilek to succeed him and would spend time grooming him. Now its their sons regardless of their qualities. R"L they are destroying the one thing the yeshivas were doing right vs. the chassidim. So now we're told that Rebbitzen Kanievsky's daughter is the new challah bencher in BB. This destroyed telz, ponovitch, and mir will go the same way. The only reason BMG didn't go down is the hamoin am just ignore RMK and he gets more respect outside lakewood than inside the yeshiva.
anon 1006 dont forget that in bmg there are three oother full fledged respected RY, rds ryo and ryn, who are all genuine massive talmeidei chachomim as well as yireim vishlaimim, precisely because as you correctly point out they are all hand picked eidems who got in on merit not on yichus. if anything they are the ones who give the bmg legitamacy. the world class talmidei chachamim of the of mir are Roa r' refoel shmulevitz and r elya boruch finkel ztl. none of them have been treated properly. it was a very different story with r chaim r beinish and rnochum. its ironic because we dont really lack the leadership talent of yesterday. Its the tyranny of the sharp elbowed mediocrities and our silent complicity in their rishus that have doomed us to the medocre leadership we suffer so greatly from.
" So he wasn't just an American boy who donned a dozen taleisim ketanim and the world called him a godl."
Endeh Tzadik, You need to show some respect.You are talking about an acomplished talmid chochom who finished Shas at sixteen in America, a person who is a posek and rosh yeshiva of note.Oh, he is actually from Europe.He came as a nine year old boy, and went back to study in the Mir as a yungerman at the age of 19.
I lived in crown heights before and after gimmel tamuz and , never heard the name Finkel and never saw in print mentioned that Mir yeshiva in yerusheliyim is being led by someone named finkel never saw a picture of this rosh yeshiva in a sefer,book, flyer, newspaper, blog, and i read a lot . Seeing the pictures of his levaya and the remarks by some commenter made me think and question, where were all the Jewish people by the rebbes leyea why did they decide to abstain why weren't there an urge to drop everything and give the kuved huachron for the greatest Jewish leader of this (all)generation some levyes in crown heights today almost matches in size as the rebbes kuved huachrun i am not talking about the peculiar things that happened during the levya like those lunatics singing dancing or the rebbes inner circle had to sneak out the rebbe to Queens so those skunks shouldn't try to bury him in 770. But the general Jewish public did not know of these things before that morning, why didn't they come ?? had they come it would have surly given a stamp of acceptance for the rebbe, i wish to think that that had it been a klal yisroel lavaya it would have not come to the current OCCUPY 770.
anpn 1039 Really now. Are you seriously suggesting that the rest of klal yisroel didnt know about the loony tunes going on in chabad before the levaya. Chabad went completely bonkers all the time the rebbe was in the coma. All you heard from chabad was yechi hamelech. There was butmans coronation and kahns nevooah and so on and so forth. Anyway Chabad has never had any real interest in the rest of froom klal yisroel -- nebuchs what they are who missed the boat. Take some responsibility for your actions.
FED UP IN PEORIA: my brother is not frum and he is in Bradley!! Can you have him for shabbos sometime?? He is in an all Jewish fraternity and somewhat involved. Please email me --bukin86(at)gmail.com would be a huge chesed and kiruv opportunity
Anon "you've very articulately described the current matzav in many chassidishe hoifs and the litvaks have picked up the same meshuggas." you are very naive to think that these fights for Shteles, just started in the decade in the non chassidic velt, Valozhin had a big fight after 30 years of its establishments, Rabonim had fights for the Shtele since that institution of rabanut had started,Look in teshuvah seforim of 700 years ago. It is part of human nature,
go to any elite yeshiva in america and ask how many are looking into mir as a first option you mean any greasy yeshiva, where the roshei yeshiva are biting their nails in hope of their bochrim making it into a big namer. places like YFR and Grodne have plenty of thru and thru shtarke lamdonim who won't hesitate to go to Mir on account of lack of pedigree. I'm not denying that AJ can be a better place because of the inherent weeding out, but, for bochrim who cna handle it, Mir can be a very viable option. out of seven hundred guys warming the seats in his shiur if a minyan know what hes really alking about its alot again, completely not true. there are definitely bochrim who go to the shiur so they can get lost in the crowd, but there are plenty of bochrim who come to Mir just for RO's shiur, which is definitely more than can be said for Brisk. it has nothing to do with last names it has to do with how you run a yeshiva I don't know how the yeshiva's run, but can you honestly say that Brisk's popularity has nothing to do with names? do you think people like camping out in Moishele's shiur for months to wait for RAJ's recitation of d'zeide's toira? people are either coming there for the name, or are taking advantage of the fact that the best bochrim go there for the name to thwart that they have this open door policy which is akin to the law of return. It's very hard for me to believe that they have an open-door policy just to take away power from RO. they've had that policy in some form since at least RN's times
There was never an open door policy by rn's shiur. You had to take a serious farher from RN himself and know what you were talking about. Even if you got into yeshiva you could wait six months to get into RN's shiur. There was a completely different ruach in those days. The whole yeshiva revolved around RN.
The issue is not pedigree. The issue is an oilam. There is not a core of top bochrim in the Mir and it is therefore not a destination for a really good bochur. Thats why they go to Brisk because thats where the oilam is. Only the elite bochrim get into brisk and thats why its a top yeshiva. You could implement that by rao in a heartbeat where you set standards as to who gets in. As the top magid shiur in the world it certainly makes sense. and you dont have to turn even one bochur away from yeshiva to do it.
this was not the only issue I cited to. You have to look in context as to the way they treat him as a whole. Most baalei moisad would look at somebody like rao as a magnet to attract top bochrim and structure the yeshiva that way. They basically ignore him completely and have just turned the yeshiva into a big ashrei yoishvei vaisecha. anything he has is by default because the cream rises to the top not because they fargin him the time of day.
I just sent my child to the Mir. It was because you have a myriad number of choices to what to learn and at what level. His rebbe, knows all of shas on his fingertips and he's very close with him and to each bocher. Mir was a first choice for me, and my son could have got into any yeshiva.
Emes, Pardon me but there was never any serious farher by RN. You had to bring a letter from your RY, show it to R' Chaim, tell a short dvar Torah to RN, and you were in the Mir! The hanhola forced you to attend the shiur of R' Aryeh for a half year because all the bochurim wanted only RN and R' Aryeh would not have had a shiur otherwise. The Mir always had an open door policy. In fact until 1975 (appx)there were no doors on the yeshiva!This was to symbolize that everyone is welcome.Only in 1975 when there became terrorist threats was the yeshiva forced by the police to put doors on the entrance.
תהא נשמתו צרור בצרור החיים.
ReplyDeletewhere did you get this card?
ReplyDeleteWHICH "CARD?"
ReplyDeleteall the chicago info?
ReplyDeleteHave I missed something? Why are you calling him Notte Hirsh instead of Nothon Tzvi?
ReplyDeleteET:
ReplyDeleteNosson=Nota
Tzvi=Hirsh
that's how the Alter of Slabodka was known
The Netziv was known as Reb Hirsah Leib
Thanks. Hopefully in due course you'll be able to give us a more level headed assessment as without wishing to diminish from his greatness in any way he was more renown as a pious figurehead and fundraiser for Mir than a 'godel'. I have heard no great pronouncements of his and nor did I read in his lifetime anything exceptional on his learning.
ReplyDeleteende tzadik,
ReplyDeleteyou are a moron
Actually, according to Tneuas HaMussar, the original Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel was referred to as the "Alter" aka "Alter of Slabodka" from age 32 on.
ReplyDeleteende pey tzadik you are clueless. But I don't want to get in flame-mode.
ReplyDeleteReb Nosson Tzvi was not called by or known by anyone as R'Nota Hersh.
He was an incredible human being and amazing Jew and Rosh Yeshiva. What he accomplished in the Mir, in the midst of visible and very real yisurim of Parkinsons Disease, was breath-taking. And I am not talking about number of bochurim or buildings or budgets. The caliber of learning, b'revach, the quality, the shiurim which I attended, the ability to be medayeik a Rashi or Tosfos, oy this is a real loss, a tangible loss. Not only for the yeshiva, Mir, Brachfeld etc. but also for yechidim. I was one of those yechidim who knew he could walk into his dira and ask to meet with him. Whenever a rabbi dies, everybody gets into hyperbole mode with "Dor Yossom" talk and all that. This now is a real loss, and in one year and beyond, everyone with eyes will see it clearly.
Dovy in Jersey, if it is moronic to ask for a fair assessment of a man's life then I count myself proudly in and I'm afraid you may be in the wrong place.
ReplyDeleteYehupitz, I didn't know him and didn't pretend to know him and I was commenting on the fact that I heard relatively little of substance from of of him.
I have however heard of Mir and the 'big name' is supposed to be Arieli. I also know that for the last 20 odd years at least Mir has been the biggest cliche in the book. It's where Satmare bochurim and many others enroll to get some litvishe gloss. There was and is no entrance exam and no assessment and all you do is rent a dire, arrange a chavruse and the shadchen can say 'er lernt in mir' to which your chavruse will testify. On the other hand it retained its international character and didn't go to the dogs like ponevitch.
(It so happens that my son's thinking of Mir and I'm trying to dissuade him. Now he's considering South Fallsburg but that may be as a fast track to R' Avrohom Yehosua.)
ende tzadik,
ReplyDeletethe big name is ROA because he's a magid siur, not a RY, completely andere parshe
interms of entrance exams, my father got one from RNP, and, although it wasn't admittedly the most challenging faher, bochurim did have to say a shtikel to the RY
whats school in chicago did he attend? can anyone let me know?
ReplyDeleteWhat are the chances that his high school picture will appear on the front cover of this week's Mishpacha Magazine?
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine the inner torture of the publishers, should someone offer them a million dollars to do so?
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/765381/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Hesped_for_Rav_Nosson_Tzvi_Finkel
ReplyDeleteA hesped for Rabbi Nosson Tzvi Finkel, delivered by Rabbi Hershel Schachter and Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
He was not just a figurehead or a fundraiser. He was not just someone available for the bochurim. He set the standard of how to treat kollel yungeleit. Instead of being stuffing for a beis hamedrash, they are important as individuals, and should be renumerated as such. We needed him in Lakewood.
ReplyDeleteBlanket of Trust
ReplyDeleteHoward Schultz
Chairman, Starbucks
And Rabbi Finkel says, "It was during this defining moment that we learned the power of the human spirit, because we pushed the blanket to five others."
We pushed?
"(It so happens that my son's thinking of Mir and I'm trying to dissuade him. Now he's considering South Fallsburg but that may be as a fast track to R' Avrohom Yehosua.)"
ReplyDeletehe sounds really confused. as does his father.
Anon, well spotted. We serve it for breakfast in our home. But perhaps we'll feel better after the certainties that are bound to appear in coming issue of Mishpacha and Yated.
ReplyDeleteOne does not look at Mir and South Fallsburg as two equal possibilities. They are so different in atmosphere, purpose etc. And a bochur considering one for good reasons specific to that place doesn't even consider the second one. I'm not judging either place. I'm saying it's apples and oranges.
ReplyDeleteI had an awful time at the Mir, felt like an ant in an ant-farm skyscraper. Yet even as I had difficulties acclamating to the giganticness of it all, I knew then and still know now that it was a formative learning experience, and my short amounts of time with R Nosson Tzvi was time that I would never trade in.
With all due respect to Mr. Starbucks, how can anyone, no matter how great, claim to know "THE" lesson of the holocaust? Sure, there are hundreds of things we can learn--but THE lesson? And for every person that shared his blanket I'm sure you can find another one, like some of the kappos, who through their bretheren under the bus to save themselves.
ReplyDeleteRNTF seems to have had a normal healthy American childhood. Student council, sports, girls in class. Despite these "handicaps" he became a beloved Rosh Yeshiva. YU in the hesped claims him as one of their own. An MO that succeeded in the black hat world.
ReplyDeleteOur educational system is headed in the other direction away from a semblance of normalcy. Here in Peoria, on a daily basis, I hear small stories in our schools that are absurd. These so called "mechanchim" are stealing the youth of our children. There is no restitution for a lost childhood.
>>Thanks. Hopefully in due course you'll be able to give us a more level headed assessment as without wishing to diminish from his greatness in any way he was more renown as a pious figurehead and fundraiser for Mir than a 'godel'.
ReplyDeleteThis was an inane thing to write, as it is illustrative of your ignorance of the facts. This is not to diminish you, of course, it is just a level headed assessment of your confusion and ignorance of this specific issue.
>>I have heard no great pronouncements of his and nor did I read in his lifetime anything exceptional on his learning.
See above.
http://www.icja.org/
ReplyDeleteWe are the Academy
A prolific writer. A Judaic scholar. A research scientist. What do you want to become?
Each year as our graduates leave the halls of the Academy, we are proud of who they have become—fine, mature, committed, cultured and dedicated Jewish young adults. We are also proud of the many awards they receive, including: university academic scholarships, National Merit Scholarships and Illinois State Scholar awards. Our graduates continue their education by attending the finest universities in America and abroad in addition to the finest yeshivot and seminaries in Israel.
Inane? perhaps but no less so than the articles being written as we talk. And since conventional sources are unlikely to provide the answers one must sometimes pose inane questions to separate the chaff from the wheat. Interesting though that the only significant tale so far comes from a cholov akum merchant and other than building up Mir no one has provided any anecdote of vignette of greatness.
ReplyDeleteInteresting too that his alma mater doesn't list him in their list of notable alumni
There are only 7 names on the list and no graduate on the list before 1980.
ReplyDeleteIs it fair to say that he was a different kind of Mirrer Rosesiveh than Rav Lazer Yudel and Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz?
ReplyDeleteBut hey that's OK. He was leading a different kind of Yeshiva in a different kind of dor.
>>Inane? perhaps but no less so than the articles being written as we talk.
ReplyDeleteThis sentence, too is illustrative of your profound ignorance.
>>And since conventional sources are unlikely to provide the answers one must sometimes pose inane questions to separate the chaff from the wheat. Interesting though that the only significant tale so far comes from a cholov akum merchant and other than building up Mir no one has provided any anecdote of vignette of greatness.
See above
Having known him for many years, I would like to add my understanding of where his "gadlus" lay. He grew up a typical modern American kid. He was naturally a "good soul" who wouldn't harm a fly, and was always with a smile. That's nice but that's not his unique gadlus. However, at around age 17 he went to Eretz Yisroel, and saw a world of ruchnius that he never knew existed. His cousins in the Mir, R' Lazer Yudel, R' Chaim Schmelewitz, etc. had simple aprtments and lifestyles, and onlt lived and breathed Torah. He then decided to leave his comfortable world of Chicago, and being a Mirer ben-Torah of only Torah. That was the first step of his personal gadlus. He married a tzideikus who let him learn day and night literally, which he did. Even as an avreich in kolel, any American who wanted to learn with him he found time for. He was already sick with Parkinson's when he inherited the helm of the yeshiva. He could have lived out his life quietly just keeping up what he had, and nobody would have thought ill of him in his circumstances. But instead he went out and actively built building after building and taking upon himself the awesome responsibility of continuosly funding an ever-growing kolel - in his condition! That's his gadlus! He always retained his natural goodness and sweetness and treated every bochur and avreich with the greatest respect. That's also gadlus. Many people - even great ones - in his postion, slip in that area. There are deeper lamdonim than him, there are brighter ones, there are Roshei yeshiva who are more politically savvy, there are those with sharper and smarter remarks; but in mesiras nefesh for the learning and spreading of Torah and of love for bnei Torah and in mentchlichkeit he was unparalled in recent times, and was thus endeared to all who knew him.
ReplyDeleteShkoyakh Kovner, well said.
ReplyDeleteHe is being celebrated for creating a yeshiva of 6,000 with buildings and buildings. He sacrificed his life to create something that was not necessary and possibly harmful. Maybe his background instilled in him a need for empire building. to show some achievement at the class reunions.
ReplyDeleteThank you Mr Kovner. Yetst hert men epes. So he wasn't just an American boy who donned a dozen taleisim ketanim and the world called him a godl.
ReplyDeleteBTW why do people add a definite article as in 'the Mir'? You wouldn't say the Slabodka or the Ponevitch so why 'the Mir?
I just hope his son can carry that load - especially that of fundraiser.
ReplyDeleteRav Finkel had Gadlus haMochin in harbotzes hatorah
ReplyDelete"So he wasn't just an American boy who donned a dozen taleisim ketanim and the world called him a godl."
ReplyDeleteand live into the 90's and more
A makhoah for Rav Scheinberg
ReplyDeletewhat טבעת החשן is gurnisht????
mr. ende tsadik -- why did RCPS deserve a slap? not nice
ReplyDeleteFed up,
ReplyDeletevos eppes?
vos eppes, vos eppes?
ReplyDeleteHershel !!!
ReplyDeleteFor comparison it would be worthwhile to count the differences between RNTF and The LR funereal
and the Ayatollah Khomeini's funeral too. ok?
ReplyDeleteFed up,
ReplyDeletevos epess that creating a huge beis medrish with so many loimdey torah is harmful, and that there's no need? there's boatloads of torah going on there, despite what you may hear to the contrary from people who want to look like they're in the loop. the fact remains, if you're not learning by the time yu reach the Mir, in all probability, the Mir had little to do with that. these people wouldn't have done much better in a smaller yeshiva, however, since anyone can get into Mir, masmidim with batlanim, they choose to chill in Mir. the fact remains, if you're in the beis medrish, you're most probably learning, and thousands of people have benefited greatly from that
Anon
ReplyDelete"For comparison it would be worthwhile to count the differences between RNTF and The LR funereal"
aren"t you a Litvak?
Because Misnagdim live for the funeral
1) the turnout 100 times more then the the funeral of the LR
ReplyDelete2) was there any dancing with A trumpeter by RNTF funeral ?
3) there is a memala mukem.
4) people were crying not confused
"however, since anyone can get into Mir, masmidim with batlanim, they choose to chill in Mir"
ReplyDeletewhat's the point of everyone getting in?
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan,THE Bronx.
ReplyDeleteRick Perry just reminded me that forgot to include
ReplyDeleteStaten Island.
Does anyone here know if there's a High School picture of the heilige Tanna Reb Akiva?
ReplyDeleteTzig. I wonder what the 'karpen kep' here would have to say, if you posted it.
To quote my uncle Chatzkel "Er iz shoin geshtorben... Luz im leiben".
Vos eppes
ReplyDelete"This past summer, Rav Finkel, despite his debilitating physical condition, traveled overseas as Yeshivas Mir-Yerushalayim found itself with debts of $15 million.
With a current debt of approximately $10 million, the yeshiva of 7,600 talmidim - the largest makom Torah in the world - is in dire straits. Yungeleit at the yeshiva haven’t received stipends since Pesach time."
http://matzav.com/american-askanim-travel-to-ey-launch-10-million-campaign-to-save-mir-yerushalayim#more-70781
This is one of the reasons that I ask why we do we need a yeshiva for 6,000 excuse me 7,600.
What would happen if half when to work, you would still have a yeshiva of 3,800. The yeshiva budget would go down and there would be another 3,800 salaries that could help support the yeshiva. Trickle down effect. No deficit.
Another issue, In modern history - the last 2,000 years - there is no precedent of having a gargantuan yeshiva. It messes up the ecosystem just like Lakewood does. Sucking life out of everything else. Chodosh ossur min hatorah. We had a system where people learned and others worked. this destroys the fragile balance. Like introducing rabbits to Australia
Volohzhin had 400 to 500?
Seven thousand six hundred? Nothing gained. Law of diminishing returns.
Fed up,
ReplyDeletethere's no "point," but it's a beis medrish for older bochrim who are assumed to have gained a miniscule amount of maturity over the years, and don't have to be babied up, m'hot shoin keinnisht tzeit far kindershpielin. if bochrim aren't going to learn, that's on their cheshbin. nowadays, unfortunately, the lack of this maturity is becoming a growing problem, and the more popular shiurim, (besides for ROA, who's just to big) REY, RYE, etc.. are starting to be more on top of the talmidim
the fact remains, I don't see how the Mir is "pointless" or "harmful." If you're looking to learn, there's plenty of opportunity provided there
"if bochrim aren't going to learn, that's on their cheshbin. nowadays, unfortunately, the lack of this maturity is becoming a growing problem:
ReplyDeleteThis is a societal problem. If the yeshiva would be smaller, it would force the immature ones to get out of the system. If the yeshiva continues to expand like the universe, then there is no incentive to get out.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete1) the turnout 100 times more then the the funeral of the LR
2) was there any dancing with A trumpeter by RNTF funeral ?
3) there is a memala mukem.
4) people were crying not confused"
Well here we go with the numbers fetish again.Namely that the numerical turnout at a funeral determines the gadlus of an individual.Based on that assumption the last pope to die was not only the gadol hador R"L but the greatest godol of all time.
As to "was there any dancing with A trumpeter by RNTF funeral".
Yep!Lubavitch brought in the Marching band of the University of Upsala to accompany the Levayeh to Montifiore cemetery.You of course were at the Levayeh and witnessed the trumpeting with your own eyes.If you did I would say that you suffer from bi-polar delusional syndrome and need some serious help.
"there is a memala mukem".So pray tell how does this add to the gadlus of the niftar and why has dynastic inheritance,usually attributed to Chassidishe Rebbes,become part of Litvish theology?
"people were crying not confused"
Kluging, feigned or otherwise has always been an integral part of Litvish practice and if the crying was anything like the crocodile tears shed by the maspid for Rebittzin Kanievsky,as shown on Utube and on this blog,I would assume that the crying of 100,000 must of backed up the drainage sewers of Jerusalem.
The truth of the matter is that you sound quite "confused" yourself by posting your above pointless,inane and unnecessary comment.
Since you brought up the numbers racket,and without malice of forethought or lack of respect for Rav Finkel Z"l,I wonder how many people will show up at the kever of the niftar on his Yahrtzeit? Will it equal the thousands of Jews of all flavors of Yiddishkeit that come to the Lubavitcher Rebbes ohel on his yahrtzeit? Just wondering.
anon3
ReplyDeletestop to answer this crazies who will constantly measure the funeral , this is very juvenile..
"this is very juvenile.."
ReplyDeleteThat was exactly the point of my comment.
Anon3
ReplyDeleteyou are trying to masbir a Ketzois in a Pre 1A
fed up,
ReplyDeletehow do you think they stayed in the system until now?
if they were forced to get out, what exactly would they be doing with their lives? they obviously don't have a concept of going out to work if they're still in yeshiva at 21 or 22 and haven't learnt a word
in the promo pictures for the mir they put the title harav hagaon by a number of people in the finkel family but deliberately omit it from rav arieli who is easily the lamdan hadoir. they also put it in a lower row to remove any doubt that he is NOT a RY nor does he have any power. they have made his life miserable by refusing to give him a normal place to say shiur for many years and by turning the mir from the elite yeshiva it was by r nichum into a yeshiva where no really good buchor would want to go. he is the memale mokom of his shver r nochum, the previous lamdan hador, who was a full fledged RYand deserved to be made a RY twenty years ago.
ReplyDeletevery similar abuses go on in many of the major yeshivas. yeshivas have become corporate business run by cuththroat cheif exeutives who will protect their turf at all costs. religion and g-d have nothing to with that equation.
and by turning the mir from the elite yeshiva it was by r nichum into a yeshiva where no really good buchor would want to go
ReplyDeletenonsense. it's the same general demographic as it has been for a long time; a big free-for-all yeshiva where there are plenty of toginacht-beinkel zitsers and plenty of people who don't know what the inside cover of a gemora looks like. that being said, look at the kind of bochurim who learn in ROA shiur, plenty of masmidim and lomdonim to choose from. if it's not considered a desirable yeshiva, the only fault of the hanhala is not having a last name that rhymes with shmoleveitchik, or perhaps more recently, shmaplan
yoske
ReplyDeletecorrect after not getting to shmuleveitchik, as his fourth default option, a good bochur hangs out in mir by roa till some seats open up by aj. go to any elite yeshiva in america and ask how many are looking into mir as a first option. thats why rao has been trying to leave the mir for the last couple of years. out of seven hundred guys warming the seats in his shiur if a minyan know what hes really alking about its alot. rav shteinman told him he has to stay.
it has nothing to do with last names it has to do with how you run a yeshiva. elite bochurim would naturally gravitate to roa and give him a power base in the yeshiva. to thwart that they have this open door policy which is akin to the law of return. if your jewish your in. im not knocking the oilam learning there i'm merely saying that good buchrim who get there and develop its usually by default not by design.
all this stuff are open secrets among the mirrer oilam. must alumni who support roa are totally outraged by the way hes treated by the finkels.
memoozzuggendeemes said...
ReplyDeletevery similar abuses go on in many of the major yeshivas. yeshivas have become corporate business run by cuththroat cheif exeutives who will protect their turf at all costs"
you've very articulately described the current matzav in many chassidishe hoifs and the litvaks have picked up the same meshuggas. It used to be an unofficial system that a RY would find an aidem who has the learning, leadership, and finfte cheilek to succeed him and would spend time grooming him. Now its their sons regardless of their qualities. R"L they are destroying the one thing the yeshivas were doing right vs. the chassidim. So now we're told that Rebbitzen Kanievsky's daughter is the new challah bencher in BB. This destroyed telz, ponovitch, and mir will go the same way. The only reason BMG didn't go down is the hamoin am just ignore RMK and he gets more respect outside lakewood than inside the yeshiva.
anon 1006
ReplyDeletedont forget that in bmg there are three oother full fledged respected RY, rds ryo and ryn, who are all genuine massive talmeidei chachomim as well as yireim vishlaimim, precisely because as you correctly point out they are all hand picked eidems who got in on merit not on yichus. if anything they are the ones who give the bmg legitamacy.
the world class talmidei chachamim of the of mir are Roa r' refoel shmulevitz and r elya boruch finkel ztl. none of them have been treated properly. it was a very different story with r chaim r beinish and rnochum.
its ironic because we dont really lack the leadership talent of yesterday. Its the tyranny of the sharp elbowed mediocrities and our silent complicity in their rishus that have doomed us to the medocre leadership we suffer so greatly from.
" So he wasn't just an American boy who donned a dozen taleisim ketanim and the world called him a godl."
ReplyDeleteEndeh Tzadik,
You need to show some respect.You are talking about an acomplished talmid chochom who finished Shas at sixteen in America, a person who is a posek and rosh yeshiva of note.Oh, he is actually from Europe.He came as a nine year old boy, and went back to study in the Mir as a yungerman at the age of 19.
I lived in crown heights before and after gimmel tamuz and , never heard the name Finkel and never saw in print mentioned that Mir yeshiva in yerusheliyim is being led by someone named finkel never saw a picture of this rosh yeshiva in a sefer,book, flyer, newspaper, blog,
ReplyDeleteand i read a lot .
Seeing the pictures of his levaya and the remarks by some commenter made me think and question, where were all the Jewish people by the rebbes leyea
why did they decide to abstain why weren't there an urge to drop everything and give the kuved huachron for the greatest Jewish leader of this (all)generation some levyes in crown heights today almost matches in size as the rebbes kuved huachrun
i am not talking about the peculiar things that happened during the levya like those lunatics singing dancing or the rebbes inner circle had to sneak out the rebbe to Queens so those skunks shouldn't try to bury him in 770.
But the general Jewish public did not know of these things before that morning, why didn't they come ?? had they come it would have surly given a stamp of acceptance for the rebbe,
i wish to think that that had it been a klal yisroel lavaya it would have not come to the current OCCUPY 770.
anpn 1039
ReplyDeleteReally now. Are you seriously suggesting that the rest of klal yisroel didnt know about the loony tunes going on in chabad before the levaya. Chabad went completely bonkers all the time the rebbe was in the coma. All you heard from chabad was yechi hamelech. There was butmans coronation and kahns nevooah and so on and so forth. Anyway Chabad has never had any real interest in the rest of froom klal yisroel -- nebuchs what they are who missed the boat. Take some responsibility for your actions.
FED UP IN PEORIA: my brother is not frum and he is in Bradley!! Can you have him for shabbos sometime?? He is in an all Jewish fraternity and somewhat involved. Please email me --bukin86(at)gmail.com would be a huge chesed and kiruv opportunity
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDelete"you've very articulately described the current matzav in many chassidishe hoifs and the litvaks have picked up the same meshuggas."
you are very naive to think that these fights for Shteles, just started in the decade in the non chassidic velt, Valozhin had a big fight after 30 years of its establishments, Rabonim had fights for the Shtele since that institution of rabanut had started,Look in teshuvah seforim of 700 years ago. It is part of human nature,
go to any elite yeshiva in america and ask how many are looking into mir as a first option
ReplyDeleteyou mean any greasy yeshiva, where the roshei yeshiva are biting their nails in hope of their bochrim making it into a big namer. places like YFR and Grodne have plenty of thru and thru shtarke lamdonim who won't hesitate to go to Mir on account of lack of pedigree. I'm not denying that AJ can be a better place because of the inherent weeding out, but, for bochrim who cna handle it, Mir can be a very viable option.
out of seven hundred guys warming the seats in his shiur if a minyan know what hes really alking about its alot
again, completely not true. there are definitely bochrim who go to the shiur so they can get lost in the crowd, but there are plenty of bochrim who come to Mir just for RO's shiur, which is definitely more than can be said for Brisk.
it has nothing to do with last names it has to do with how you run a yeshiva
I don't know how the yeshiva's run, but can you honestly say that Brisk's popularity has nothing to do with names? do you think people like camping out in Moishele's shiur for months to wait for RAJ's recitation of d'zeide's toira? people are either coming there for the name, or are taking advantage of the fact that the best bochrim go there for the name
to thwart that they have this open door policy which is akin to the law of return.
It's very hard for me to believe that they have an open-door policy just to take away power from RO. they've had that policy in some form since at least RN's times
There was never an open door policy by rn's shiur. You had to take a serious farher from RN himself and know what you were talking about. Even if you got into yeshiva you could wait six months to get into RN's shiur. There was a completely different ruach in those days. The whole yeshiva revolved around RN.
ReplyDeleteThe issue is not pedigree. The issue is an oilam. There is not a core of top bochrim in the Mir and it is therefore not a destination for a really good bochur. Thats why they go to Brisk because thats where the oilam is. Only the elite bochrim get into brisk and thats why its a top yeshiva. You could implement that by rao in a heartbeat where you set standards as to who gets in. As the top magid shiur in the world it certainly makes sense. and you dont have to turn even one bochur away from yeshiva to do it.
this was not the only issue I cited to. You have to look in context as to the way they treat him as a whole. Most baalei moisad would look at somebody like rao as a magnet to attract top bochrim and structure the yeshiva that way. They basically ignore him completely and have just turned the yeshiva into a big ashrei yoishvei vaisecha. anything he has is by default because the cream rises to the top not because they fargin him the time of day.
I just sent my child to the Mir. It was because you have a myriad number of choices to what to learn and at what level. His rebbe, knows all of shas on his fingertips and he's very close with him and to each bocher. Mir was a first choice for me, and my son could have got into any yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteEmes,
ReplyDeletePardon me but there was never any serious farher by RN. You had to bring a letter from your RY, show it to R' Chaim, tell a short dvar Torah to RN, and you were in the Mir! The hanhola forced you to attend the shiur of R' Aryeh for a half year because all the bochurim wanted only RN and R' Aryeh would not have had a shiur otherwise.
The Mir always had an open door policy. In fact until 1975 (appx)there were no doors on the yeshiva!This was to symbolize that everyone is welcome.Only in 1975 when there became terrorist threats was the yeshiva forced by the police to put doors on the entrance.