א קורצע ביאגראפיע
I know that his kids and eyniklach are somewhat surprised - shocked, really, that this surfaced. They had heard that he burned it before leaving to Hungary, and that meant that it ceased to exist... But some very determined young man went and found it, and it didn't take much to get it. This is the world we live in. I think I heard R. Matisyahu Solomon refer to the computer as a metaphor for וכל מעשיך בספר נכתבים, that everything we do is פארשריבען for all eternity. Even if we think that we burned it. In the case of the Shoproner Rov it was as if he was running from this for the rest of his life. One might say that some of his extreme opinions were to compensate for all the חכמות חיצוניות that he learned as a child and as a young man. The page "Benutzte Literatur" (page 82 of 85) is a who's who of ספרים חיצונים. Heady stuff.
Received via e-mail from "a friend": "The story goes as follows. Someone told Reb Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg about Shoproner Rav's 'תורת א, to which he replied, "Who, Shimon Posen? I saw his doctoral dissertation and it was full of apikorsus." I heard the story from my friend b'shem his father be'shem the late R. Yitzchok Heilbraun z"l (if you know who that is, if not ask around about the Baal Koreh in the 7:00 o'clock minyan in Pupa Shul on Bedford Ave.) who heard that statement from Weinberg himself. This story makes perfect sense considering Rav Posen published the doctorate in Giessen, Gemany in 1921 and Weinberg studied at the time in Giessen under Paul Khale. What I can't figure out is, how come R. Posen studied in Frankfurt University, and published the dissertation in Giessen. Also, check out the last 2 pages of the doctorate where R. Posen writes some interesting biographic details about himself that do not appear in any biography of him..."
The dissertation of Rav Shimon Yisroel Posen of Shopron - 1921
As a bonus we bring you a few pages from RNK's MOAG where he discusses the Shoproner Rov as well as some of his contemporaries. Fodder for some good conversation, is what this is.
Pages From Nathan Kamenetsky - Making of a Godol
This should only be surprising to someone with no knowledge of history (which I guess would be most of us). We all know the close connection between the German Yekkishe Yidden and the Hungarian Oberlender Yidden. This even existed in America, there was a close kesher between the Washington Heights kehilla and the Viener Kehilla. Don't forget that Rav Breuer was a talmid of the Ksav Sofer, and grew up in Papa (Pupa).
ReplyDeleteOf course, if you look at the descendants of both these communities today, it would be hard to believe.
Also, while it may not be obvious today, there was a streak of Kannaus in Germany as well.
The Shoprone Ruv has a son Pinchus (Pinye) Posen that still lives in Washington Heights. Those who know, know that the Shoprone Ruv was a Talmud of Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch before he got to know the Munkatche Ruv.
ReplyDeletePosen from WH is not a son of Shopronner Rav.
ReplyDeleteThe SR has a son Pinches that lives in Williamsburg
You are right. I meant a brother, Dayan Posen they called him.
DeleteHirshel Tzig: “I know that his kids and eyniklach are somewhat surprised” “it was as if he was running from this for the rest of his life” “to compensate for all the חכמות חיצוניות that he learned as a child and as a young man.” “Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg about Shoproner Rav's ??תורת א- I saw his doctoral dissertation and it was full of apikorsus”
ReplyDeleteHirshel, don’t get excited with your bombastic discoveries בלילה ההוא שנדדה חלומך בשנתך we all know it and we also know of: אמר ר"ע כשהייתי עם הארץ הייתי אומר מי יתן לי תלמיד חכם ואנשכנו כחמור But what is interesting is that this arch Zionist Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg who was the rebbe of “The rebbe!” Did not say anything about his talmid MM Schnersohn (or did he..) who was a student at the Sorbonn university in Paris , what about his doctoral dissertation?!, and being ‘your rebbe’ why didn’t you burn the midnight oil to dig and find them (or ask the pupa gabe about his current apikorsus..not 1921!) and post them here on your blog הידוע לשמצה , My question is if to believe every dig from every Dick Tom and Harry’s discoveries do we have to believe that your rebbes father was reading secular books ספרי חיצונים (as the melachum claim) or that your rebbes grand father according to the internet scholars was a patient from Freud and a habitual נואף ח"ו !!! וכו' וכו' עד למטה מעשר טפחים ממש or who רבּיצ'ן משקה I’m sure residing in היכל המשיח was!? Stick to your domain your גזע, ותול קורה מבין עיניך !
חטא גדול הוא לומר לבעל תשובה, זכור מעשיך הראשונים, או להזכירם בפניו כדי לביישו, או להזכיר דברים ועניינים הדומין להן
כדי להזכירו מה עשה. רמב"ם הלכות תשובה
right
ReplyDeleteit's only a חטא גדול when it's done to you and your buddies. But in the same comment you went and did it yourself. I forgot, to Lubavitch it's מותר ולמצוה גדולה יחשב!!!
Uforatzto
ReplyDelete"Did not say anything about his talmid MM Schnersohn (or did he..) who was a student at the Sorbonn university in Paris , what about his doctoral dissertation?"
I see that this doctorate is messing up all your belief systems.You take out every curse in your arsenal, for your shallow response.
I guess that since he and the Krasner were the only serious Rabonim of the Satmar dogma, you get excited when they slaughter your holy cow.
Rebinie haKodesh Baal Likutie Sichas Zetza"l never hid his dissertation, he wanted to be a engineer, and not make Torah Kardem Lachpor Boi, so he worked for a living, even in the USA, there is noting to shed tears for.
He wrote many letters by the Israeli ship shabos travel saga, and quoted his knowledge on that matter, if you will find kefira in ship building then you are a genius.
There is not even a Midrash in Shir haShirim against it.
Ufotatzto
ReplyDelete"Hirshel, don’t get excited with your bombastic discoveries בלילה ההוא שנדדה חלומך בשנתך we all know it and we also "
What are you saying here.????
I dont get it....
I met once בליל התקדש חג הפסח a savaged beast who un-provked curesd out on the street with scraems & shouts on the: מנחת אלעזר,תורת אלף,דברי יואל זי"ע this episode disturbed me for a long time, I have thought about it why does he equate these three toghter? What botters him?! Until i relized the the 2 had a direct impact destroying the אגודה'ס dreams! And the 3th one was a talmid of both of them, so he eqates them all 3 togheter what זכות לצדיק, גאון,וחסיד כמו התורת אלף!
ReplyDeleteUforatzto
ReplyDelete"What botters him?! Until i relized the the 2 had a direct impact destroying the אגודה'ס dreams!"
did they really destroy the Agudah? does the Agudah exist?
do they have MK's in the Keneset?
Are they the majority in artzeini Hakedosha,or Duschinsky and Mishkenois Horoim?
Hirshel Tzig 1:20: “But in the same comment you went and did it yourself.”
ReplyDeleteמתוך כעסך בא לידי טעות The rambam refers to a bal t’shuva like the תורת א vs. his ‘doctoral dissertation’ written by “someone” 50 years prior? Do we have any proof that your rebbe did any t’shuva if yeas post it please! And I will ask for your מחילה !
Uforatzto
ReplyDelete"or that your rebbes grand father according to the internet scholars was a patient from Freud and a habitual נואף ח"ו !!! וכו' וכו' עד למטה מעשר טפחים ממש or who רבּיצ'ן משקה I’m sure residing in היכל המשיח was!"
I would believe all the rechilas on the Rebbes Elter shver, but it is a lie and impossible since he was a Kanui, and Kanoim cant be bad or wrong...
Uforatzto
ReplyDelete"My question is if to believe every dig from every Dick Tom and Harry’s discoveries do we have to believe that your rebbes father was reading secular books ספרי חיצונים (as the melachum claim)"
Is a printed and filed dissertation the same as a rumor that is created by a ground that have a ax to grind????
Where do you see that Rav Wienberg is a super Zionist? The Munkacher Ruv was very friendly with Rav Wienberg? Maybe the Maluchim have some Rechilas on the Munkacher too?
How do you earn the title Arch Zionist? By not believing that the 3 oaths are the biggest sin since Menashe hamelech? or by not believing that talking Hebrew once,is worse then 7 times idol worshiping?
Ufaratzto,
ReplyDelete"Do we have any proof that your rebbe did any t’shuva if yeas post it please! And I will ask for your מחילה !"
First give me a sin......
Hirshel.
ReplyDeletethanks for the copies of the Kamenitzky book,
I also heard that the when the Shoproner was in the army, he was stationed in the Ukraine, he landed in some Chernnobler Skverer chasidic court,and was introduced there to chasidic ideals, even before Munkach.
He got to know R' Yakov Liebele a son of the Triske Maagid a son of the Tchernoble Maagid. R' Yakov Liebele would call the Shoprone Ruv די מלאך אין מונדירן. He at that time wear Dutch uniform.
Deletesharmasher:וכל חינוכי דיליה said: bla bla bla...
ReplyDeleteStop pestering the airwaves with poking you jewish nose in subjects and topics un-known and never will to you! גם אויל מחריש חכם יחשב by your continuos comments some schnuk may think you actually saying something.
Tiemono
ReplyDelete"by your continuos comments some schnuk may think you actually saying something."
I definitely talk to the Shchnuks only, I never intended to shmooze to people of your caliber, guys like you, are to intelligent for me, plus the Schnuks are the majority
Tzig, di hint zennen shoin vidder arois gekimen billen. S'shoin hechst tzeit az men luzt aleh murei shchoirehnikkers indroisin finm getzelt....
ReplyDeleteThe Washington heights Kehila
ReplyDeleteIs still full of קנאות regarding zionism
Rabbi schwab was very anti.
You should know that there are many many talmidei chachomim that came out of Washington heights Kehila
Dayanim Tishri yeshiva etc..
this page from MOAG claims the FR had a stroke bec of a kpeida from RBB. AFAIK, he did not have a stroke in europe. in 1942 he had a stroke in NY. i thought NK did his homework.
ReplyDeleteRussianAmerican, Shoproner Ruv was not a talmid of RSRH. He couldn't be one. RSRH died in 1888 while RSYP was born in 1894. As RSYP writes in his autobiography in the back of the dissertation, he was a talmid of R. Solomon Breuer who was a talmid of RSRH. Also, according to Wikipedia, RSYP's father was a dayan in Frankfurt, and he was appointed to the post by RSRH.
ReplyDeleteHirshel, I'm afraid that with ופרצת's comments, you have to add to the post that the Shoproner einiklech are also pissed about it...
ופרצת, I don't see how bashing RYYW, the Lubavitche family, and Tzig helps your case. All Tzig did was post a wonderful piece of history. No need to rant and rave like a wounded dog.
Firstly I love this blog. I can't pinpoint exactly why but I just do.
ReplyDeleteSecondly: What's up with this Uforatzto fellow?! Chill out mate!
Thirdly: In Australian football there is an expression called playing the man, in contrast to playing for the ball. You are attacking the Rebbe because of Hershel Tzig? It doesn't make sense?!
Fourthly: We can never know why a tzaddik does something, but I will tell you an interesting point.
Aside from the numerous halochic novelties the Rebbe was able to explain and innovate because of his scientific knowledge; The Rebbe came to America on a worker's visa! That is how he was saved from the Krig!
shulchan aruch choshen mishpat
ReplyDeletesiman 228
seif 4
you can't remind a baal teshuva of his past bad actions
What surprises me is that the Lubavitcher Rebbe didn't even attend the Sorbonne or a real college. It seems to have been a technical school. So why did Lubavitchers put up all the years with the criticism of the Rebbe having attended Sorbonne. It seems as if they actually like the idea.
ReplyDeleteSame with the claim that the Rebetzin worked in the New York Public Library. After listening to that tape of her deposition, it's apparent that she didn't even have a full command of English. So why put up with all the criticism.
Someone, please enlighten me.
She worked in the russian department of a library.
ReplyDeleteמיין חבר פרציילט מיר אז ער האט געהרט פין זיין חבר וואס האט געהרט פין זיין טאטע וואס האט עס אליין געהרט פין א חסיד פין רבי יענקעלע אז רבי יענקעלע האט פארציילט א מעשה וואס ער האט געהרט פין זיין טאטע אין זיין טאטע האט עס געהרט פין א עכטע חסיד רבי משה וואס דער רבי משה האט עס אליין געהרעט פינעם גרעסטען שקרן איו שטאט !
ReplyDeleteדאס מייענט איש מפי איש!!
By the way I did have the zchie to know rabbi Yitzchok Heilbraun, he was a ערעליכע איד
שמחת פורים רבי הערשעל
Cursory reading of Dr Posen's dissertation doesn't show any "apikorsus". It is simply a discourse about scientific truth in particular, comparing different philosophical schools ( Kant, Husserl et.al. )and their views, who might not be in accordance with the Torah Weltanschauung ( a term the Rebbe used several times ) on the topic. Dr Posen does not voice his own opinion of whether these theories a right or wrong or whether he agrees with them.
ReplyDeleteTo accuse him of "apikorsus" is therefore unfair.
As he writes at the end his mentor also lectured at Giessen University, which explains why he submitted his thesid there.
What's more interesting, is the fact that he had a somewhat limited Jewish education: nine years at the Hirschian school in Frankfurt, which at that time had only two or three hours of Limmude Koidesh, followed by a few years at a nonjewish high school (Gymnasium) and two or three years at the Breuer Yeshivoh. Most probably he had private tutors or was instructed by his father.
is anybody out there to translate?????????
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe did attend Sorbonne proper (besides the technical school associated with Sorbonne), and his diploma was shown in the Chabad library (in case if rabbi Hutner referring to him attending Sorbonne is not enough), as for the dude who claims he did not find any documents in the archives he conveniently omitted the fact of the famous fire that destroyed some parts of Sorbonne's archives.
ReplyDeleteNot that it matters much.
The Rebbe did attend Sorbonne proper (besides the technical school associated with Sorbonne), and his diploma was shown in the Chabad library (in case if rabbi Hutner referring to him attending Sorbonne is not enough), as for the dude who claims he did not find any documents in the archives he conveniently omitted the fact of the famous fire that destroyed some parts of Sorbonne's archives.
ReplyDeleteNot that it matters much.
1)as a son of talmid of the shoproner rav from Europe,plus my family connection publicizing the theses which i knew off but never seen it , and the points mentioned by Yoshe K, on the limited formal jewish education only increase my fascination on the madreiges that he acheived in his life time,
ReplyDeleteThe fact remains that he came from a house hold that Maada/Chol was tolerated and ended up raising a family and kehila that limeidei kodesh was exclusive at all ages,
and MMS came from a house where lemidei Chol was forbbiden and ended up going to college
Fed up
ReplyDeleteplease give me the benefit of the doubt. We can speak directly via email at: neveler at gmail dot com
1. The KAJ dayan in WH is not a son of the Soproner rav. Dayan Posen is the author of Amirah LeBays Yaakov and is a nechbeh el hakelim. One of the last real yekkishe rabbonim.
ReplyDelete2. It was not at all unusual in Germany to take classes in 1 university and then write your dissertation in another place. The dissertation in Germany was some what different than it is in the US.
3. Marc Shapiro points ou that Rav Weinberg was never awarded a doctorate.
4. The fact that Rabbi Posen was a rabbiner doktor was never a secret. Even I knew that.
5. I heard from the grandson of the last Soproner shochet (Rosenfeld) that in `1944 the rav fled his kehillo to Budapest leaving no one in charge. The shochet took command in those dark days. My informant tells em his grandfather who survived would have nothign to do with a man who deserted his ship first and left the kehillo to be led by the shochet. If this story is true its a lot worse indictment of the man's character than writing a good dissertation in Germany.
Hirschel, ever rad the book "Chassid from Hamburg". This post reminds me of that book.
ReplyDeleteYour thoughts on that book? I thought it was a fascinating book and very historically accurate.
KAJ in WH is no more kanaoisdik as far as Zionism goes than the average yeshivashe community in Lakewood or Flatbush.
ReplyDeleteOnly a few old men keep up the Kannoiesdik position.
The middle aged people and the few young people(the community is not replacing itself and few of its youth remain in WH) basically have an Aguda position about Zionism. Many of the grads of the yeshiva in the 1960s and later are even very pro Israel.
Rabbi Schwab was very active in the Aguda unlike Rav Dr. Breuer. I doubt that Rabbis Gelley or Mantel are kanoim either.
The leaders of the kanoim were Rabbis Breuer and Breslauer and they are long in Olam haemes.The only kannaus left in KAJ is against its neighbor YU... and many of its yeshivashe trained rebbeim hardly like our brothers in CH to say the least and that is a major change in the last 30 years.
Ahron Marcus was a much more complex person than portrayed in Hasid from Hamburg. In order to see his true face (perhasp his mind)you need to read his Hachasidismus in the original German and what he writes about subjects we do not talk about here.
ReplyDeleteOf course the Hebrew translation was given a sanitization.Marcus is hardly reliable as a historian or source for Jewish or Chassidic history.
Tzig. Ya know. Perhaps you should've closed this blog 10 days ago. We would've had 10 days less of Sinas Chinom and shfichas domim.
ReplyDeleteA Freiliche Humon Tash!
the שנאה is there without the blog too...
ReplyDeleteSchneur!! don't stop in mid sentence the schochet took over and the thing left for him is to become the Kapo in the gehtto
ReplyDeleteyou wish that shoproner rav should have perished ??
chasdei hashem he was rescued
(edited)
Falshe Tzain said: "Perhaps you should've closed this blog 10 days ago. We would've had 10 days less of Sinas Chinom and shfichas domim."
ReplyDeleteAs Hirshel said "the שנאה is there" But I'll add it's not בּחינם, א יוד קרעכצט נישם בּחינם, אבּער דאגות אבּער כּינים
In the case of this holy innocent tzadig who never injured a fly on the wall and certainly wasn't a מסית ומדיח, trying to smear him לאחר מותו with stupidly true or not, btw no revalation every one knew when he was alive and, admired how he morphed into this giant what he was didn’t embrace his גרסא דינקותא and was an
עובד ד' בּתמימות נפלאה, ועפר תחת רגליו של צדיקי אמת
Its behind the pale and a true רחמנות on the purveyors of this smut! We know whom you really after! But I'll say to you:
כל־כלי יוצר עליך לא יצלח וכל־לשון תקום־אתך למשפט תרשיעי זאת נחלת עבדי ד' וצדקתם
מאתי
לא יצלח
ReplyDeleteyou should learn from this צדיק נשגב and guard your tongue.
Hirshel Tzig : "you should learn from this צדיק נשגב and guard your tongue."
ReplyDeleteYou are a true מחוצף by posting what are your party line comments and by deleting what's not, that's not discourse and just preaching trying to falsify history! as said…
כל־כלי יוצר עליך לא יצלח וכל־לשון תקום־אתך למשפט תרשיעי זאת נחלת עבדי ד' וצדקתם
מאתי
Lozmirup said...
ReplyDeletethis tipesh Kamenitzky should of say that the Rayatz was arrested because of Reb Burech Bers Kepideh.. since he repented and send over 10 guy to reb borech ber for forgiveness so his life was said,and he should write 10 versions how the Mechila proccess worked ....
Yakov
ReplyDelete"as for the dude who claims he did not find any documents in the archives he conveniently omitted the fact of the famous fire that destroyed some parts of Sorbonne's archives.
Not that it matters much."
but who do you think made the fire... ???Duved Raskin and Chanina...
We have video footage of them running from the building..
Hirshel Tzig "you should learn from this צדיק נשגב and guard your tongue."
ReplyDeleteYour rebbe was a public figure who went with the wind of modernity his behavior current and passed is in the public domain and people know it all! Just like they know other public figures! What’s true or not history will tell us, but you took a private man ‘never before in the publics eye’ after he is dead 40 years and for no apparent reason trying to hurt someone?! Whom IDK?! And you have the audacity to preach to others "guard your tongue" Don't You Have Any Shame!
Hirshel Tzig "you should learn from this צדיק נשגב and guard your tongue."
ReplyDeletePractice what you preach!
Bechovedig...
ReplyDelete"and MMS came from a house where lemidei Chol was forbbiden and ended up going to college"
FYI, Rebinie haKodesh MiLubavich statrted a cheder that had no limiudie chol what so ever, mamesh as the Malochim.. even tough his FIL build a mossad that did have Limudie chol.Frankel writes in his Memoirs, Satmar rav did not like the idea of kids not learning limudie chol, he told for frankel, let them go to Malochim.As far as I know Shoproner cheder in willi still has a english depeartment in elementery schools.
BTW, does Shopron have a indepedent Kehila at all ? I think its a Satmar shtibel with a different name, with some Mizels family on the front benches.
Russian American
ReplyDelete". R' Yakov Liebele would call the Shoprone Ruv די מלאך אין מונדירן. He at that time wear Dutch uniform."
I dont have the chutzpa to doubt this story, but just curious to know, who survived from that chassidus to give us this little snippet? unless the Shoproner himself said it...
Please stay at 500 Bedford Ave and enjoy the kuchenyu.
DeleteThere were people that survived from that Chasidus, my grandfather is one for an example.
Remember to wet your tongue with banana liquor before eating the gulash.
The Kovner rav was in Switzerland when the war broke out... he returned home to Kovno to be with his people in hard times, after all he was only the rav..
ReplyDeleteThe Rayaatz did not leave Russia in 1918 either he stayed and led his people.
Rabbi Rosen unlike most of the Charedi rabbis did not flee Rumania either . he remained and organized Jewish life there amking sure there were old age homes, shechitah, chedorim etc while for over 100,000 Jews only 3 Orthodox rabbis remained there.
Being a rav of a kehillo is an achrayus. You just can't agree to be rav for the kavod and none of the Ol harabbanuth.
In the Warsaw Ghetto rabbis Stockheimer , Szapiro and Ziemba had the opportunity to leave but did not as they were the officially elected rabbonim of Warsaw. They ahd an achrayus. 2of them were killed.
No one wishes anything bad for anyone.Perhaps only certain chugim wish to see the abolition of the Jewish state of course in their make believe manner of a "peaceful way" Hows that ?
Schneur
ReplyDeleteI think the Chasam Sofer in his sefer haZikoran ( a diary based sefer of the Napoleon war era)discusses what the rav should do in a situation like this, if he should stay in town or leave to help from outside, I dont have the sefer in front of me to know his conclusion.
R` Yechiel Yakov Weinburg couldn't of been offered to see Toras Alef since it was first published in 1970 while RYYW passed away in 1966.
ReplyDeleteRead this and the comments http://onthisandonthat.blogspot.com/2012/02/rabbi-dr-shimon-yisroel-pozen-doctor.html?m=1
Deleteווייס רוסלאנד :R` Yechiel Yakov Weinburg couldn't of been offered to see Toras Alef since it was first published in 1970 while RYYW passed away in 1966."
ReplyDeleteהאסט א קשיא אויף א מעשה, דער רמבּ"ם זאגט המכזב כמו שמכזב בפיו מכזב בקלמוסו
ביטע ערקלערט מיר וואס אייער המלצה האט מיט אונז דא אהער.
Deleteschneur: " certain chugim wish to see the abolition of the Jewish state of course in their make believe manner of a "peaceful way" Hows that ?"
ReplyDeleteYou ever heard of the powerfull soviet union which instilled fear worldwide? what happened to it? did it disolve peacefully or did we had WWIII חכם עתיק
You ever heard of the powerfull Soviet Union which instilled fear worldwide? What happened to it? Did it disolve peacefully or did we had WWIII and I didn’t notice it. חכם עתיק
Did midget of a ‘non Jewish State’ can disapeear כאשר בא כן ילך with a stroke of a pen!!!
I think it is a chutzpah and downright silly to pass judgment on how certain Rabbonim responded to the circumstances during the Holocaust.Does anyone here really know all the details of all the facts? These are people who lived model lives before and after the war; why assume they acted selfishly during the War? Every Rov had to make his own painful decision of what was better, remaining and possibly being killed or saving one's own life which the Torah gives top priority. And even if someone failed at that particular nisayon, are you so sure that you what have acted better?
ReplyDeleteYaakov... Why was this alledged diploma never scaned and printed?
ReplyDeleteYou should tell r rapaPort in london... In his long critisism of the friedman book he left this out.
Atticus man,
ReplyDeleteAnd you will be happy with the disappearance of the Jewish state ?If the Jewish state is no longer why should there be an incorporated community of Jews in Monroe or Rockland county.Why can't the jews of Monroe live peacefully with their Christian neighbors in joint communities, why do you guys need to live alone but resent a jewish state in Israel ? Does it make any sense to Goyim , you bet it does not !, say hello to them , sit in the aprk with them volunteer on local do good patrols. Certainly they are no worse than your Arab buddies ?, maybe even pay taxes together. You know rav Shlomo Kluger came out against this sort of settlement in aletter to the heiliker Ruzhiner. as well.
Friend (greyse historiker) You ever hear of all the civil wars going on in the former Soviet Union since the country fell apart.
lets see Soviet Georgia(the Geirgian defense chief is miBnai israel),
Chechinya which includes mass murder through terror attacks in European Russia on a fairly routine basis. How about terror via explosions on aircraft massacres in theatres in Moscow vechuli vechuli.
But I forgot what I write is all Zionist propoganda, the truth is that the USSR fell apart peacefully , tell that to all the victims of radical Muslim terror and the rest of the civil wars that plague post Communsit Russia.
Even if 1 Jewish life is the price for the end of Israel its one life too many.
Chochem atik
ReplyDelete"You ever heard of the powerfull soviet union which instilled fear worldwide? what happened to it? did it disolve peacefully or did we had WWIII חכם עתיק"
The Usa and the western world w3aqs not eager to have a war, it is the opposite,they wanted to end id peacefull, they did not want to rid all ruusians from russian land..
what a ferd u have to be for thoughts like this.
Russia was never threatened to be wiped out by some ruler ...
BTW,where is there prohibited in Shulchan Aruch or in Rambam that Jews can not have a independent country before Moshiach?
In my Shulchan Orech hilchas shabbos there is a obligation to defend every yishuv where thereis a kibbutz of Jews residing, may it be Orange county,Rockland county,Kings country or Eretz Hakodesh where the Ungarishe Hiezer and it Bies Din exist.Please notify me if there is a other code of laws for Orthodox Jews outside of Rambam shulchan Orech...
Schneur, your remarks are typical Ma Ahane Lon Rabunon,and your examples are ridicules ,
ReplyDeleteAll the happenings of the universe are for one reason,they shall be the cause for the Jews to be Transitory, For Hashem does not want to destroy them, just to punish them into expatriate,
A people in transition without leadership is part of the Hashems plan that some leaders shall arrive first to the new destination, and some shall depart last,it all fits into the words of Loi MiAstim V'Loi GiAltim L'Chalosom.
Of course your fellow Hertzlites don't agree to Hashems plan of punishment so you are paraphrasing their dogma to praise the Partisans who did not move without a fight and to degrade Rabunim who succeed to escape
Ma Ahana lo Rabonon
ReplyDeletesorry your response make no sense, Schneur spoke devorim shel taam, U seem like in a status of Ad Delo Yuda...
"You know rav Shlomo Kluger came out against this sort of settlement in aletter to the heiliker Ruzhiner. as well."
ReplyDeletesource requested
Nati Grossman said...
ReplyDelete"his tipesh Kamenitzky should of say that the Rayatz was arrested because of Reb Burech Bers Kepideh.. since he repented and send over 10 guy to reb borech ber for forgiveness so his life was said,and he should write 10 versions how the Mechila proccess worked"
if u really cared about RBB's honor u would shut up quickly before u make a total fool out of yourself.
1. learn basic english grammar.
2. this supposed story according to NK happened in the late 1930's. The FR was arrested and sentenced to death r"l in 1927.
B"H most of us lubabs don't judge true litvishe gedolei yisroel like RBB, the brisker dynasty, RCS by what idiots repeat in their name.
Shamsher said...
ReplyDeletewhere is there prohibited in Shulchan Aruch or in Rambam that Jews can not have a independent country before Moshiach
5 times in Bavli is mentioned The words of the Amoira Shmuel the biggest poisek in his Generation that says: That Mesihachs SOLE ASSIGNMENT is to establish a Jewish Sovereignty, for Jews to have their own government ,all other attributes to Meshiach can be (and are)disputed,
The Rambam brings down LeHalucha the words of Shmuel as just Umri Chacumim and states that who ever does not WAIT for Mushiach (as described by Shmuel) is an Apikoires
Before the coming of meshiach being part of a municipality under the sovereignty of a non Jewish government is permissible,
Before the coming of meshiach defending Jewish neighborhoods is permissible only under the framework of the non Jewish government
The sholosh sehvuos fools ignore the fact that imrei emes and most polishe gedolim held its not lmaaseh because its aggadateh and not brought down in the rambam. And so does the avnei nezer pasken. But you could talk to a wall to these Hungarian fools Ryt couldn't make a mistake. He simply was fool proof. Look he said according to his shitah, that people will not be able to live under the secular, and we are seeing the opposite, the secular are complaining that the frume have too much power.
ReplyDeleteTo all of you sholosh shevues guys get a life the avnei nezer says its agadatah and its not halacah.
ReplyDeleteWaiter
ReplyDeletethe more you talk, the more everyone realizes that you people are having a torah chadosha, with no basis in halacha, better you don't touch the source part.
Who said Shmuel the Amora is not big he probably could be Mechaye Maisim, but still the shulchan aruch or the Rambam does not put a straight forward halacha that you can not have a independent country in south America, Asia, etc....
The issue of the three oats will be decided by Ms.Feldman and Ms.PearlBerry and their sisters in flight from frum folly.As Frank Sinatra famously said,"the best is yet to come..."
ReplyDeleteHERE IS THE BASICS ABOUT MESHIACH
ReplyDelete1) Waiting for Meshiach for what ?
Shmuel the Emoira says:
That Mesihachs SOLE ASSIGNMENT is to establish Jewish Sovereignty for Jews to have their own government ,
all other attributes to Meshiach can be and are disputed,(that the rest can be done by meshiachs underlings).
2) The above statement is
repeated 5 times in Bavli
3) The Rambam brings it down in Hilches Meluchim as a Universal statement that NO One argues on it,
5)Then the Rambam continues that anyone who does not WAIT for Meshiach to establish the Jewish state is an APIKORES,
6)The satmer rav was highlighting the Shlosh Shevues , because the Shulosh Shevues has a terrible punishment attached to it that if JEWS violate the oath (or plan to violate)to create a state, besides being an apikoires Jews become free to to be destroyed
7) As a holocaust survivor he felt the reason he was spared is to scream out against the Jews who don't wait for meshiach so maybe his words will spare us from another holocaust.
8) I know Hitler or Achchmajinadad don't pasken from agadeta but they have to listen to their Surei Maleh
HASHEM YERACHEM
9)leich kenois as haHeHidim
a freilechen pirim
Mr. Waiter and others have recently adopted the position of Shmuel because the Natruna and NK had no answer to Reb Yoel Kahan's answer to the SR in which he clearly shows that the current medineh has nothing to do with the geulah and is therefore acceptable. There was no answer to this position in Satmar circles so some clever ones decided that they would jettison the miracles and supernatural stuff and run the argument based on Shmuel's statement about shibud malchiyos.I'm sorry but I will never believe that the SR felt that yemos hamoshiach did not have a major supernatural component well beyond merely having an independent political state.Maybe Rabbi Hirsch of Frankfurt believed that but the Satmarer Rebbe?Isn't it fundamental Hassidic belief that the Beis haMikdosh hashlishi will descend fully built from heaven? That's not supernatural? And the Rambam does say that Moshiach will rebuild the Bais ha Mikdosh.It says so in Hilchos Melochim.And what about techiyas hameisim?The Rambam also says that yemos hamoshiach will bring world peace and an end to human suffering as stated in Yeshayah?Do you deny that too?
ReplyDeleteThis is such a geferliche farbrecherei and himmel geshrei!!!
ReplyDeleteThe person who searched for and publicized this thesis, is USID LITEIN ES HADIN!!!
I am NOT MEKANEH HIS YENE VELT or THIS VELT!!
The heiliger Shoproner Ruv was a baal tsheeveh gummer!
Did you know this fact??
Did you know that whenever he received a letter which also referred to him as Dr. in the title - he would fast that entire day???
TZIG- shame on you for publicizing this even futher. It's a moiredige chitzpeh and bizoyon and and are MAMESH not being nizher begachlusson!!!
Think about this Tzig!
Forget about his descendants, he himself is standing up there looking down on you with anger.
If I were you I'd ask a serious shaaleh about beiting him ibber somehow.
Rachmune Litzlon!!!
Waiter
ReplyDelete")Then the Rambam continues that anyone who does not WAIT for Meshiach to establish the Jewish state is an APIKORES,"
In my Rambams, old print, Frankel, Kafach,Shilat, there is no such rambam.....
Waiter
ReplyDelete"As a holocaust survivor he felt the reason he was spared is to scream out against the Jews who don't wait for meshiach so maybe his words will spare us from another holocaust."
the world does not have to suffer for some individuals crooked reasoning's... he made a mistake and forget about it...
Waiter
ReplyDeleteOutside of the Misnachlim talmidie talmidim of Rav Kook Z"L, nobody looks at current Israeli sovereignty, as messianic, Everyone still pray for moshiach 3 times a day.It is a just a yishuv in Eretz Yosroel with noting pertaining to Shmuel, and it has to protected for the sake of our brothers who live there.
Again there is no halachic source to prohibit a yishuv in eretz yisroel before Moshiach..
Tcehegerer Dayan..
ReplyDelete"
The heiliger Shoproner Ruv was a baal tsheeveh gummer!
Did you know this fact??
Did you know that whenever he received a letter which also referred to him as Dr. in the title - he would fast that entire day???"
Holy Dayan, from where do u know all this facts? Also did the Shoproner know all the facts on all the people that he attacked?
He was part of the leading a vicious war on all Jews that did not agree with his philosophy, did he check all the time if they fasted for their sins?
As a holocaust survivor [the Satmer Rebbe] felt the reason he was spared is to scream out against the Jews who don't wait for meshiach so maybe his words will spare us from another holocaust.
ReplyDeleteIt takes a special person to maintain a position like that after being rescued by a Zionist organisation.
Joe in Australia: "It takes a special person to maintain a position like that after being rescued by a Zionist organisation."
ReplyDeleteExcept that he wasn't! as proven by the kastner ימ"ש process, and stated among others by the un-refutable Ben Hecht ז"ל in his book perfidy!
un-refutable Ben Hecht ז"ל?
ReplyDeleteDo you even know who Ben Hecht was. He was a Revisionist Zionist. So he still is not good in your books. Married 2 non-jewish women.
Ben Hecht is the darling of the Hareidi world - they don't realize that he was an ardent Zionist.
JJJ : “Ben Hecht is the darling of the Hareidi world”
ReplyDeleteThe usual crap If you cant attack the message, attack the messenger!
BTW IDK who this shygetz was not exactly a Revisionist, He himself writes it and he was from the אצ"ל לח"י'ניקס whom he feels deserve credit in capturing the land from the arabs/UK not the impowerd צה"ל הגנה , that was the agenda of his! So he exposes who the real הגנה is!
If I’ll quote The ויוא"מ, או מן המיצר, טוב השניים המתנבאים בסגנון אחד your skull will not budge! So I’m trying one of your kind a true Zionist to be the כתוב השלישי, יבוא הנס מכל מקום!
I'm working on a translation.
ReplyDeleteIn the mean time i found a fascinating book of the Statuten der Israelitischen Religionsgesellschaft Kehilath Jeschurun Frankfurt am Main (1875)
http://ia600501.us.archive.org/3/items/statutenderisrae00isra/statutenderisrae00isra.pdf
Here is a translation of the last page.
ReplyDeleteCurriculum vitae (CV).
I, Simon Posen was born on 20 July 1894 at Frankfurt am Main, the son of Rabbi Gershon poses. I'm [of the] Jewish religion. I visited [learned] from Easter [Passover] 1900 to Easter [Passover] 1909, the pre-school and school of "israelitischen Religionsgesellschaft" [Kehilath Jeschurun] at Frankfurt am Main and entered Easter [Passover] 1909 in the upper fifth of the Wohler-secondary school, in this school I was the Easter [Passover] 1912 Graduate. I now first studied Talmudic studies at the Frankfurt Talmud Huehschule "Torah-School" headed by Mr. Rabbi Dr. Breuer. Since the winter semester 1914/15 I was also enrolled at the University of Frankfurt, where I devoted myself for the first semester mainly philosophical and historical studies. My studies I had to break at the end of the summer semester 1915, for several years since I moved since the end of June for military service from October 1915 until after the conclusion of the field war. After my return and discharge from the military services at the beginning of 1919 I took my studies at the University of Frankfurt am Main on again. Even now I pursued mainly philosophical studies, but also occupied myself more with historical studies, by working in the areas of logic and the theory of knowledge I was soon also applied to mathematical studies.
Since the beginning of the winter term 1920/21 I am also in the lectures of Professor Messers Leitung standing philosophical seminar in great part.
During this time, encouraged by Professor Messer's advice and teaching my dissertation. For which I again express my heartfelt thanks.
During my studies I attended the lectures of professors and lecturers Bieherhach, Burckhardt, Cnrnelius, Hasse, Hellinger, Kern, Küntzel. v. Martin, Messer, Opnenheimet. Petersen, Schneider, Schultze. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you.