Your California shul may be all hip and "cutting edge," but it's only in your imagination. It's not cutting edge to think that your 20 minute shachris is more important than this poor shnorrer who came all the way from Yerushalayim - his children's food and clothing. Or wedding. He can't wait around until you're gracious enough to throw him a buck. Just ban all collectors, while you're at it, don't embarrass the intelligence of your fellow Jews. Your tzedokoh-free shachris is not necessary; we'll do just fine without it. The Yiddish sign is condescending, besides for the fact that it wouldn't kill you to take the time to figure out how to spell "bitte." It's a 4 letter word, for crying out loud! This reminds a student of history of how German Jews were so disgusted by the "Ostjuden" with the dirty kapotes who made them look bad.
HT You are very on the ball with this post. it disgusting. You should post the name of the shul so we can all go there at once and raid the place in middle of davening with our pushkas.
ReplyDeleteTrust me tzig its not easy for me but I agree with you 100%.
I trust you, Hyman
ReplyDeletemaybe they'll take it down now that we posted it...
Hirshel,
ReplyDeleteIs this the type of matter where one provides a personal view, or is it one for which a Posek should make a determination based on Hilchos T'filla.
I don't think you'd find a Posek who would say it's muttar to speak during Chazoras Hashatz just because the davening is quick and 20 minutes and perhaps has little Kavono?
As far as hergesh, I'm with you all the way. At the practical level, many shuls and yeshivos have similar notices and rules. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
ReplyDeleteHT,
ReplyDeletetry davening shachris in munkatch or SS on 13th ave with a tie on. I was once rushing from a meeting and forgot to take my tie off. on one level this sign is disgusting, a shtikel midas sidom, but sometimes it's out of hand. I heard that in Monsey RMT has a rule no collecting between boruch she'amar and chazoras hashatz. that seems to be a decent way to go.
"try davening shachris in munkatch or SS on 13th ave with a tie on"
DeleteI humbly beg your haughtiness to disembark from your high horse and realize that people collecting tzadakah, are NOT specifically targeting tie-wearing persons. In fact, surprisingly, it is not the tie-bearing well dressed individuals that are known for there exceptional generosity, but rather we the shabby non-tie-wearing chasidim -Munkatch
conversation levi yitzchok?
ReplyDeleteCLY wouldn't bother. No. Not a Chabad shul. MO.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDelete"try davening shachris in munkatch or SS on 13th ave with a tie on."
its a blood libel
I disagree with you on this one. Your fury is predicated on a preconceived notion of the inherent greater worth of ANY Yerushalmi Yid over that of ANY MO Jew. A debatable point to start with.
ReplyDeleteMoreover why are you utterly mevatel the tefilos of a fellow Jew???? Many a great, heartfelt and destiny changing prayer was offered up to heaven in under 20 minutes. And if you don't think its possible to be tzibrokhen and a big nitzrokh just because one happens to live in Beverlywood rather than in Varshaver Haiser you err on the complexity of the human heart.
MOs don't put up signs like this merely because they are mesudar or midas sedom-dik, they probably do so , at least in part, because of their awareness of the utter contempt they are held in by those seeking their largess. It takes a tremendous k'vishas HaYetzer to give generously to those who consider you a sub-Jewman
Hirschel:
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm a huge fan of your blog, I can't agree with you here.
The situation in our area of Los Angeles has truly gotten out of hand with overly aggressive Meshulachim who disrupt the davening:
1. They come into shul in droves all driven by the same driver.
2. They pitch their tzedakas (talking to us) while we are davening krias shema and during chazoras hashatz;
3. They ask us point blank to point them out to "so and so" during davening (it feels like we are "informing" on our neighbors).
4. They stand and loom over us while we are davening looking for our names on our Tallis bags (feels like we are being stalked);
5. They block our walking out of shul by standing in front if us;
Coming to shul should not be aggravating but the overly-abrasive Meshulachim make it so uncompfortable to come to minyan, that the sign is certainly justifiable.
--
Respectfully,
Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
Law Office of Baruch C. Cohen, APLC
4929 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 940
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Telephone (323) 937-4501
Facsimile: (323) 937-4503
cell phone: (323) 353-9535
e-mail: BCC4929@gmail.com
LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/baruchcohen
well, Baruch, if you put it that way...
ReplyDelete"attention shul: ביטא נישט דאוונען ביז נאכן געבן צדקה "
ReplyDeleteSorry, Hirschel. Like Reb Boruch above I feel the conduct of far too many meshuochim has made that sign necessary. Complain that the regulation here is too draconian if you must. However, individuals walking the aisles, invading Daled Amos, sticking hands and petekim in our faces in the middle of davening, showering us with contemptuous looks and occasional colorful invective when too "stingy" and being otherwise disruptive in what should be a precious "20 minutes" away from the sturm un drang of the day have not acquitted themselves. Having a bit of patience with us will not hurt anyone at all; they will not get the cash back to their families in Yerushalayim any sooner or later. In fact, it will have the added benefit of making us more receptive to their plights and needs and may well be more to their benefit come the bottom line.
It is long past time for a few good shiurim on the basics of Derekh Eretz for tzedakah collectors!
Reb Boruch, our tefilos are answered in the zechus of us being "maavir al midosav" and viewing the cause that the collector is going around for, rather than their sometimes abrasive methods.
ReplyDeleteBoruch Hashem, we have never felt the choking desperation that some of these pathetic nitzrachim feel.
I can BH relate to your feelings on the matter more than I can to the mishulochim.
For those who complain about meshulachim in shul. Are you available at home or work, or is it a constant run around for a meshulach to catch you? Do you apreciate your good fortune of being on the giving end rather then a taker?
ReplyDeleteI think you have a warped sense of Tzedoka. A donor does not owe any particular meshulakh or moisod either his/ her time or money. טובת הנאה שלו. Donors owe a halakhically dictated amount and should be responsible to prioritize their giving ahl pi din.
ReplyDeletebray, technically you are right. at the practical level, most balebatim want to not be known as misers but givers, yet many make getting a buck out of them a sport at the poor meshulach's expense.
ReplyDeleteive been on both sides of the equation, bh never had to collect for myself, but i have gone door knocking in a number of communities including that of the lawyer who commented above. i never went to him, but many of his landslite dont give appointments, answer the phone, come to their door or acknowledge you if you catch them in shul... if your lucky, throw you a buck.
ideally, no one should have to collect, but now that they do, what do you want them to do?
if you dont want meshulachim come to you at home, put a sign on your door, most people will respect it.
if too many people were misers in any given communty, the collecters would stop coming, like in sedom.
The gabai of CLY in LA, levi raichik, taught me to avoid wasting meshulachim's time. most of them walk around with a paper from some vaad or other, and levi hates it when people take that paper and are me'ayen in it as if it's their final will and testament. for a buck u don't waste anyone's time. give or don't give but have some respect.
ReplyDeleteMr. Cohen, perhaps share with us your preferred method that you'd like meshulachim to utilize when visiting your community.
ReplyDeletethe lawyer has gone silent
ReplyDeleteThe 'lawyer' was in depositions all day, and did not have time to respond until now. Let it not be said that the lawyer is silenced.
ReplyDeleteI am a trial attorney. I'm not a fundraiser. I'm not in the business of training fundraisers of how to improve their schnorring.
However, I know what works and I know what does not work.
We say in trials that "pigs get fed but hogs get slaughtered." An aggressive collector might indeed generate a favorable response to his cause. But an abrasive Mushulach who is grub and uncouth who lacks the basics of derech eretz, and antagonizes the community, will be called on it and he will be blacklisted.
Those Meshulochim with grace, elegance and middos tovos have a much better chance at a favorable response.
--
Respectfully,
Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
Law Office of Baruch C. Cohen, APLC
4929 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 940
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Telephone (323) 937-4501
Facsimile: (323) 937-4503
cell phone: (323) 353-9535
e-mail: BCC4929@gmail.com
LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/baruchcohen
boruch, im heading to LA in thenear future. do you want me to call you at the above number(s) for an appointment, or would you rather i aproached you in shul?
ReplyDeleteif not at your house, how will i know who you are?
Saw a sign very similar in Landaus so it has little or nothing to do with "Cutting edge" California Shuls
ReplyDelete