i heard the Tolna was disinvited from AI's convention because Gur protested having him there. I assume it's because of the Gerrer Wikileaks. can anyone confirm this rumor.
הסיפור מעניין מאד. הלכתי לחפש ולברר מיהו הרב הניאולוגי הזה שהרבי מבעלזא רצה לקרב לבעלזער שטיבל, ובכן בספר פנקס הקהילות, הונגריה, שבהוצאת יד ושם, עמ' 418 נאמר: "ד"ר יוסף הורוביץ ([כיהן בשנים] 1911-1954) שהיה בתקופתו אחד הפעילים בתחום הציונות והתרבות היהודית. בין היתר יזם את 'הסתדרות הסטודנטיםק למטרה זו".
In Munkacs the belzer shtieble was officially registered as being a neolog temple. They even had there own "shechita" in Rosvigef whuich had adin of nevilos and treifos according to ll the Hungarian Rabbonim.
Drelly "whuich had adin of nevilos and treifos according to ll the Hungarian Rabbonim." outside of the Marshag rav of Semiyalie, who was probably then the biggest Goan in Hungary, And the Krola Ruv, later Sakmer rebbe
A mashal worthy of the Dubner Maggid !!?!! Did the leadership of the BM invite him ? No he came by himself . Was he the Rabbiner placed in the mizrach vant ? Apparently not. Remember this happened right after 1945 when 6 million Jews including half of Hungarian Jews were murdered . At present the Reform movement and its rabbis are in the forefront of spiritually murdering the Shearith hapleitah of American Jewry !! As a reward its rabbinic leader gets to sit at the dais at the shluchim conference, where would the head of the RCA sit ? How about the head of the CRC or Rabbi perlow of Novominsk ? No one has any taaynes that Reform rabbis have attended Lubavitch events thus men like Herbert Weiner of 9 and 1/2 Mystics fame interviewed the Rebbe and hung around 770, but was he sitting next to the rebbe instead of R Mentelik or the Razag ? What sort of signal does the kavod Rick Jacobs received send to Reform Jews.They feel accepted and at ease ready to give a nice donation to the local shliach while their goyishe wife and kids smile. . Chabad has gone a long way from the days of the Rashab who fought against all reforms in the Russian rabbinate such as language requirements, secular education and the encroachment of Kozyoner rabbis on the role of the Duchovner rabbinate. There was no greater defender of the Old ways in Russia than the Rashab ! May I repeat that the Rebbe endorsed the Roshe yeshivas call in 1956 against the Synagogue Council of America and the NY Board of Rabbis and the Rebbe gave great kiruvim to rabbi Hollander and his struggle against Reform rabbis. Does the potential for new areas of fund raising legitimize this New path ? Finally I can't help but note that Lubavitch of today is best shown by this blog. Rick Jacobs and his kiruvim by Chabad are militantly defended here while the peanut gallery of 770 goes all out against an erliche Yid like rav Moshe Weinberger hayitochen?
Schneur "while the peanut gallery of 770 goes all out against an erliche Yid like rav Moshe Weinberger hayitochen?" its you and Dixie that decided that the comments against Wienberg, were from Chabadniks, it was majority, by Litvak purists,,, I guess if chabad is not in the picture, there would be no story...
Schneur "Remember this happened right after 1945 when 6 million Jews including half of Hungarian Jews were murdered . At present the Reform movement and its rabbis are in the forefront of spiritually murdering the Shearith hapleitah of American Jewry !! As a reward its rabbinic leader gets to sit at the dais at the shluchim conference, where would the head of the RCA sit ? How about the head of the CRC or Rabbi perlow of Novominsk ?" to bring the Rebbe Reshabs methods of handling Anti religious forces, with today's world, has all the same issues,as the Belzer Kloiz, its Nishtani Hoitim for everyone, There was a war that killed 6 million Jews, the Reform movement has no life, there is no boy outthere looking for them for direction,in oyr age they have no power like the Kehilas in pre war Europe before the tielung.Or in other cities where the Kehila was led by non religious Jews. So to rehash constantly the Rebbe reshabs wars to today, is like crying how come the Rebbe does not fight the war against Napoloen of the Alte Rebbe, or why the Satmer ruv did not fight the Neologen as his grandfather the Yetev Lev. Its Nishtani Hohitim on all..... this roundtable of the 60's was a issue of working with them, on many issues as 1 voice. Having a rabbi by your event and agreeing Moshe Emes Vetotrosoi Emes is total something else.. dont pick my words now that he did not use this words, but he basically agreed...
Shneur "Chabad has gone a long way from the days of the Rashab who fought against all reforms in the Russian rabbinate such as language requirements, secular education and the encroachment of Kozyoner rabbis on the role of the Duchovner rabbinate. There was no greater defender of the Old ways in Russia than the Rashab !" I dont think that Chabad Rebiem have the policy, that every Rebbe has to imitate his style of Askuness to the earlier Rebbes.A Chabad rebbe has to say mamorim based on the earlier Rebiem, but in other fields, he calls the shots they way it comes Its a Ungarischer thing, that is encroaching on every one. Chodosh Ossur Min hatorah is Hungarian concept....and even they changed when ever they pleased, You has the son of the CS who fathered this dogma, introduced Machine Matzhos, a change that had the whole Klal Yisroel up in arms
shneur the following is the rebbes view,from a letter... In regard to the decision by the Liverpool Kashrus Commission forbidding their caterers to accept functions of members of the Reform movement, and your inquiry as to my opinion, the situation is not very clear to me. If the above decision refers to private affairs of individuals who are members of a Reform congregation, I cannot see on what basis a Jew should be denied kashrus facilities, since all Jews, without exception, are bound to observe all Mitzvoth, including Kashrus, and it is not only the duty to enable them arrange a kosher meal, but it is also the duty to encourage them to request kosher catering. Surely there can be no differences of opinion in this regard. However, perhaps the question concerns not private affairs, but such undertakings that, if given supervision by a Dayan or Rov, might be misconstrued as to receive sanction for the Reform movement itself. In such a case, each case has to be dealt with on its merits, and it is up to the Moro d’asro to pass judgment after exploring all pertinent factors, and then, too, every effort should be made to enable Jews to eat kosher, while taking necessary precautions to avoid giving public approval of the Reform movement.
The rebbe is saying each case should be consulted by a RAV.....
shneur in the following the Rebbe states clear that MEMBERSHIP is a problem
I have clearly stated my view that membership in the New York Board of Rabbis, or Synagogue Council of America, or similar religious bodies, strikes deeply at the roots of true Judaism. Such membership cannot escape the logical inference that the Conservative and Reform movements are recognized by the orthodox members of the said bodies as belonging within the fold of true Judaism, differing only in degree or in minor details; whereas in truth these movements deny the very basis of true Judaism. Protestations to the contrary can only be regarded as empty words, refuted by actions.
If Lubavitch believes that Reform has no attraction today and is oysgeshpilt they really suffer from a total disconnect with whats going on in the US today Reform is the largest Jewish denomination and is far from dead and honoring their religious head gives them a nice shot in the arm . Reform has no life say who ? if it has no life why sit Rabbi Jacobs at the dais(why put the leader of a dead movement up front, usually you bury him) after all you would not sit the Hacham of the Karaites from San Francisco at the dais would you ? HUC has many students , Reform temples are still functioning(not to say growing) and there are more of those than Chabad houses. I"ll save my more extensive comments about nishtanu ho-itim and Chodosh assur min haTorah for a different time. Suffice it to say that I was taught that all the Lubavitcher Rebbes were the same.... I even believe the last nasi said exactly this when he assumed the leadership in 1951. calling the Rashab's policies about the rabbinate in Russia askanus shows where Luabvitch stands today . The Rashab was not an askan he was a RAV and manhig Yisroel and in these issues he was talking psak- DAAS TORAH - not askanus. This were not tactical or political issues that askanim dla with , thesew ere Torah issues and as the great rabbi Moshe Hecht of New Haven always said The TORAH NEVER CHANGES Perhaps the times have changed and now is the right time to forget about beards and lange gartlech why not ? It makes as much sense as what you right in terms of recognizing Reform Rabbis. what lubavitch needs in these dark times is some serious Rabbinic leadership . Rabeisai the Chasam Sofer did not invent Chodesh assur min HaTorah - zoas HaTorah lo tehe Muchlefes !!! And you do not have to be from Bergszas or Kashoi to believe in the ETERNAL values of Torah principles. The CS fought Refrom rav Hirsch fought Reform in Germany The Zemach Zedek fought Dr, Lilienthal in Russia The Agudas Horabbonim in the US fought Reform, The Chidushe Horim fought Reform in Warsaw,the machzikei hadaas fought Reform in Lemberg and Galicia, the chief rabbinate fights and fought Reform in Israel today and for the last 70 years. THe OU has fought Reform in the US, the chief rabbinate of the UK from rabbi NM Adler and Dr. JH Hertz to our day fights Reform(in a very fervent manner) and even your great chasid Lord Sachs the chief rabbi of the UK until very recently; refused to participate in any events in which a non-orthodox rabbi participated in(He probably lacked a clear telephone connection with the bosses in 770). The only Orthodox group that does not fight Reform is Rabbi Avi Weiss and YCT , perhaps you ought to reach out to them for support. But suddenly Chabad says the times have changed and Reform does not need to be fought. I am not certain which is worse the vilde Messianism pervasive in CH and Israel or this new hashkofa. Be well
Shneur "calling the Rashab's policies about the rabbinate in Russia askanus shows where Luabvitch stands today . The Rashab was not an askan he was a RAV and manhig Yisroel and in these issues he was talking psak- DAAS TORAH - not askanus. This were not tactical or political issues that askanim dla with , thesew ere Torah issues and as the great rabbi Moshe Hecht of New Haven always said The TORAH NEVER CHANGES" What a Mekushar!!!!! more sensitive then the Rebbe calling it askunas in Hayom Yom... I guess you former Mashpia the Mekushar Reb Moshe was still from doir Hashishi, and they knew Hiskashrus better. Your attack looks like attacking me for writing the Rebbe Reshab ate by a Farbrenbgen... how I dare to write Eating on a rebbe, In Pizza store people eat... but Rebbes???? There is askunas of Zwiebel,Sherer, Hikind and Greenfeld. They do it there baal batish way, then we have a Rebbe doing askunas the Rebbe Reshab way....
Shneur "Rabeisai the Chasam Sofer did not invent Chodesh assur min HaTorah - zoas HaTorah lo tehe Muchlefes !!!" Sorry to bust your hot air balloon, but he did invent that phrase,and he knew it has noting to to do with "zoas HaTorah lo tehe Muchlefes" dont over-hype it more then the inventor of the phrase He writes in Teshuvas Orech Chaim, 148, its Margelie Bepimie.... its my phrase that I use. in Even Ezer in a teshuva, he finishes it off as a nice Vertel (Halotza Nueh) it is definite a trend that he took in all ways of Hanhogas Hklal. Even on the 13 Ikrim he has is own unique ways as his last teshuva in YD..
Schneur "The CS fought Refrom rav Hirsch fought Reform in Germany The Zemach Zedek fought Dr, Lilienthal in Russia The Agudas Horabbonim in the US fought Reform, The Chidushe Horim fought Reform in Warsaw,the machzikei hadaas fought Reform in Lemberg and Galicia, the chief rabbinate fights and fought Reform in Israel today and for the last 70 years. THe OU has fought Reform in the US, the chief rabbinate of the UK from rabbi NM Adler and Dr. JH Hertz to our day fights Reform(in a very fervent manner) and even your great chasid Lord Sachs the chief rabbi of the UK until very recently; refused to participate in any events in which a non-orthodox rabbi participated in" Your list is massive, but still the Rebbe decided on his own, and you can realy find it based on his FIL directives, not to fight them, because sorry to say that your list, did not diminish the reform movement 1 iota, it just build a barrier that whoever is on our side should keep put, and unfortunately our side was shrinking and they were increasing. after the war the Rebbe and so did Rav Wienberg of Aish Hatorah, Rav Pam of shuvu, Rav shach of Lev Leachim, belzer rebbe of torah vemunah, that to fight for the sake of fighting, because my grndfather had this title,gets no where. they and many others saw a world ripe for kiruv, from every walk of life. And they have done wonders, far far from fixing this massive churban that Reform and other ISM had damaged us. In addition to all this, the Reform Movement is on his way of becoming obsolete in a couple of decades, as they admitted lately in many articles. And the Pew study, just made that fact more official scientifically. Jacobs is basically admitting that they were wrong, and Chabad (Orthodox Jewry) was correct, but he is not ready to give up his well paid position and close shop. If Dr. Lilentahl, would be at that stage of Jacobs by the Tzemach Tzedek... he would of accept him, Plus Lilenthal was out to shmad every Jew in Russia, Jacobs is now containing his tinuk shenishbe turf. There was joining organizations, in roundtable fashion or any other way.... You are trying to stir up some porridge of hollow arguments, your chabad yeridas hadorois theology is something that you are striving to prove for decades.... Analogies to YCT is shtusim....I did not see in 770 a RABBAT by the sefer torah yet. The Rabonim in Chabad,Brown, Shvie, Ashkenazi, Raskin,Yaraslovsky, Shochet, Raichik are not into relaxing every day a other Issur....as the agenda of YCT...
schneur " I am not certain which is worse the vilde Messianism pervasive in CH and Israel" I am no Meshichist,and I am against them, but time has proven they are not so bad. they have a Meshugaz... Reb Nachman writes in Sichas Haran, Meshugaz in emuna even if it is Narishkiet is also good..Too much sichel is worse. Breslover can use it on Na Nach, and chabad can use it on the Meshichisten...
schneur "If Lubavitch believes that Reform has no attraction today and is oysgeshpilt they really suffer from a total disconnect with whats going on in the US" it is a Machlokes Harishonim, between a individual who sits in his cubicle in some office, vs. thousands upon thousands of men and women doing legwork in every city in the USA where Jews and the reform movement exist.
Sitting in their office and their cubicle . Hmmm. seems to me there was another gentleman who sat in his office most of his life and claimed to know ,what was best for all of World Jewry down to the last details. Don't you agree ?
Schneur " Hmmm. seems to me there was another gentleman who sat in his office most of his life and claimed to know" we live in a free society and you can doubt the claim of the gentleman.. but he still employed a massive focus group that reported to him on a daily basis....
A Sabbath in Park Slope and Bklyn Hts and the Upper wast Side will tell anyone the truth .the local Refrom groups etc have many more people on Shabbath than the Chabad groups. So my suggestion leave the cubicle of CH and go to PS BH and send my regards to rabbis Andy Bachman and Ellen Lipman.
"A Sabbath in Park Slope and Bklyn Hts and the Upper wast Side will tell anyone the truth .the local Refrom groups etc have many more people on Shabbath than the Chabad groups. So my suggestion leave the cubicle of CH and go to PS BH and send my regards to rabbis Andy Bachman and Ellen Lipman." Did any one say that they closed shop?? Did anyone claim that they will all be chabadniks on day? also not, they will probably assimilate to Goyim Gemurim It was only said that they are decrying their future... by realizing that they were wrong....in realizing they have only few decades to go...
Mielech You are way off the mark. Reform has 3 rabbinical seminaries in the US ordaining over 75 rabbis yearly(maybe more) . They have hundreds of temples and are active in " Jewish" life. They have a powerful youth group - NIFTY They are far from realizing their errors. By the way do you read their literature like REFORM JUDAISM or the CCAR Journal. Try to get copies and you will see they are not waving white flag. In Yuppie NYC or as you fellows like to call it Brownstone Brooklyn, Reform is much more active than Chabad. You may write them off but they have NOT written themselves off. And what Chabad did was give them a chiyus bepoel mamash The same Pew report and focus groups you refer to also says that outreach has made little inroads in Jewish life.(I am not sure this is really correct) Take a look at Marvin Schick's cover story in the JP 2 weeks ago and what he says about the need to re-evaluate Chabad outreach programming. So how about that you agree with that after all the focus group says so ?
Schneur I repeated many times, that Reform movement is on its way out, not because of Chabad,Oir someach, Oorah etc... Its a dying enterprise, this is what pew concluded, I know that Orthodox outreach is not touching the tip of the iceberg of the assimilation problem, I don't need Marvin schicks article, which has noting original to say and no focus group. The reform movement still has many temples that will be around for a another few decades, so they obviously need rabonim,Old Rabonim retire,replacements are needed, but it is on his way out , look at the findings of PEW, you are going in circles forever
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בעלז וועט זיין א ווינקל פאר טוילעטס אין ירושלים ביז משיח וועט קומען.
ReplyDeleteInsert אוי in all the right places. Not bad for Israel, they provide tp the whole week and not just on Shabbos.
תכלת מרדכי
ReplyDeletethe Best said wherever your mind is set, this is where you basically stay
It says the guy was half frum and they didn't introduce him as a rabbi
ReplyDeleteThey do call him Rabiner, is that much different then Rabbi?
ReplyDeletei heard the Tolna was disinvited from AI's convention because Gur protested having him there. I assume it's because of the Gerrer Wikileaks. can anyone confirm this rumor.
ReplyDeleteהסיפור מעניין מאד.
ReplyDeleteהלכתי לחפש ולברר מיהו הרב הניאולוגי הזה שהרבי מבעלזא רצה לקרב לבעלזער שטיבל, ובכן בספר פנקס הקהילות, הונגריה, שבהוצאת יד ושם, עמ' 418 נאמר:
"ד"ר יוסף הורוביץ ([כיהן בשנים] 1911-1954) שהיה בתקופתו אחד הפעילים בתחום הציונות והתרבות היהודית. בין היתר יזם את 'הסתדרות הסטודנטיםק למטרה זו".
In Munkacs the belzer shtieble was officially registered as being a neolog temple. They even had there own "shechita" in Rosvigef whuich had adin of nevilos and treifos according to ll the Hungarian Rabbonim.
ReplyDeleteDrelly
ReplyDelete"
"was officially registered as being a neolog temple."
it was called Sefardic Kehila, as was many chasidic kehilas.. see Beregsaz..
Drelly
ReplyDelete"whuich had adin of nevilos and treifos according to ll the Hungarian Rabbonim."
outside of the Marshag rav of Semiyalie, who was probably then the biggest Goan in Hungary, And the Krola Ruv, later Sakmer rebbe
stam a link about these people
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolog_Judaism
I knew Mr Pogesz well, he had a Bakery in Montreal....
ReplyDeleteA mashal worthy of the Dubner Maggid !!?!!
ReplyDeleteDid the leadership of the BM invite him ? No he came by himself .
Was he the Rabbiner placed in the mizrach vant ?
Apparently not.
Remember this happened right after 1945 when 6 million Jews including half of Hungarian Jews were murdered . At present the Reform movement and its rabbis are in the forefront of spiritually murdering the Shearith hapleitah of American Jewry !! As a reward its rabbinic leader gets to sit at the dais at the shluchim conference, where would the head of the RCA sit ? How about the head of the CRC or Rabbi perlow of Novominsk ?
No one has any taaynes that Reform rabbis have attended Lubavitch events thus men like Herbert Weiner of 9 and 1/2 Mystics fame interviewed the Rebbe and hung around 770, but was he sitting next to the rebbe instead of R Mentelik or the Razag ?
What sort of signal does the kavod Rick Jacobs received send to Reform Jews.They feel accepted and at ease ready to give a nice donation to the local shliach while their goyishe wife and kids smile.
.
Chabad has gone a long way from the days of the Rashab who fought against all reforms in the Russian rabbinate such as language requirements, secular education and the encroachment of Kozyoner rabbis on the role of the Duchovner rabbinate. There was no greater defender of the Old ways in Russia than the Rashab !
May I repeat that the Rebbe endorsed the Roshe yeshivas call in 1956 against the Synagogue Council of America and the NY Board of Rabbis and the Rebbe gave great kiruvim to rabbi Hollander and his struggle against Reform rabbis.
Does the potential for new areas of fund raising legitimize this New path ?
Finally I can't help but note that Lubavitch of today is best shown by this blog. Rick Jacobs and his kiruvim by Chabad are militantly defended here while the peanut gallery of 770 goes all out against an erliche Yid like rav Moshe Weinberger hayitochen?
Schneur
ReplyDelete"Did the leadership of the BM invite him ? No he came by himself ."
were you in Krinsky office, when the invitation happened?
Schneur
ReplyDelete"while the peanut gallery of 770 goes all out against an erliche Yid like rav Moshe Weinberger hayitochen?"
its you and Dixie that decided that the comments against Wienberg, were from Chabadniks, it was majority, by Litvak purists,,,
I guess if chabad is not in the picture, there would be no story...
Schneur
ReplyDelete"Remember this happened right after 1945 when 6 million Jews including half of Hungarian Jews were murdered . At present the Reform movement and its rabbis are in the forefront of spiritually murdering the Shearith hapleitah of American Jewry !! As a reward its rabbinic leader gets to sit at the dais at the shluchim conference, where would the head of the RCA sit ? How about the head of the CRC or Rabbi perlow of Novominsk ?"
to bring the Rebbe Reshabs methods of handling Anti religious forces, with today's world, has all the same issues,as the Belzer Kloiz, its Nishtani Hoitim for everyone, There was a war that killed 6 million Jews, the Reform movement has no life, there is no boy outthere looking for them for direction,in oyr age they have no power like the Kehilas in pre war Europe before the tielung.Or in other cities where the Kehila was led by non religious Jews.
So to rehash constantly the Rebbe reshabs wars to today, is like crying how come the Rebbe does not fight the war against Napoloen of the Alte Rebbe, or why the Satmer ruv did not fight the Neologen as his grandfather the Yetev Lev.
Its Nishtani Hohitim on all.....
this roundtable of the 60's was a issue of working with them, on many issues as 1 voice.
Having a rabbi by your event and agreeing Moshe Emes Vetotrosoi Emes is total something else..
dont pick my words now that he did not use this words, but he basically agreed...
Shneur
ReplyDelete"Chabad has gone a long way from the days of the Rashab who fought against all reforms in the Russian rabbinate such as language requirements, secular education and the encroachment of Kozyoner rabbis on the role of the Duchovner rabbinate. There was no greater defender of the Old ways in Russia than the Rashab !"
I dont think that Chabad Rebiem have the policy, that every Rebbe has to imitate his style of Askuness to the earlier Rebbes.A Chabad rebbe has to say mamorim based on the earlier Rebiem, but in other fields, he calls the shots they way it comes
Its a Ungarischer thing, that is encroaching on every one.
Chodosh Ossur Min hatorah is Hungarian concept....and even they changed when ever they pleased,
You has the son of the CS who fathered this dogma, introduced Machine Matzhos, a change that had the whole Klal Yisroel up in arms
shneur
ReplyDeletethe following is the rebbes view,from a letter...
In regard to the decision by the Liverpool Kashrus Commission forbidding their caterers to accept functions of members of the Reform movement, and your inquiry as to my opinion, the situation is not very clear to me. If the above decision refers to private affairs of individuals who are members of a Reform congregation, I cannot see on what basis a Jew should be denied kashrus facilities, since all Jews, without exception, are bound to observe all Mitzvoth, including Kashrus, and it is not only the duty to enable them arrange a kosher meal, but it is also the duty to encourage them to request kosher catering. Surely there can be no differences of opinion in this regard. However, perhaps the question concerns not private affairs, but such undertakings that, if given supervision by a Dayan or Rov, might be misconstrued as to receive sanction for the Reform movement itself. In such a case, each case has to be dealt with on its merits, and it is up to the Moro d’asro to pass judgment after exploring all pertinent factors, and then, too, every effort should be made to enable Jews to eat kosher, while taking necessary precautions to avoid giving public approval of the Reform movement.
The rebbe is saying
each case should be consulted by a RAV.....
shneur
ReplyDeletein the following the Rebbe states clear that MEMBERSHIP is a problem
I have clearly stated my view that membership in the New York Board of Rabbis, or Synagogue Council of America, or similar religious bodies, strikes deeply at the roots of true Judaism. Such membership cannot escape the logical inference that the Conservative and Reform movements are recognized by the orthodox members of the said bodies as belonging within the fold of true Judaism, differing only in degree or in minor details; whereas in truth these movements deny the very basis of true Judaism. Protestations to the contrary can only be regarded as empty words, refuted by actions.
If Lubavitch believes that Reform has no attraction today and is oysgeshpilt they really suffer from a total disconnect with whats going on in the US today Reform is the largest Jewish denomination and is far from dead and honoring their religious head gives them a nice shot in the arm .
ReplyDeleteReform has no life say who ? if it has no life why sit Rabbi Jacobs at the dais(why put the leader of a dead movement up front, usually you bury him) after all you would not sit the Hacham of the Karaites from San Francisco at the dais would you ?
HUC has many students , Reform temples are still functioning(not to say growing) and there are more of those than Chabad houses.
I"ll save my more extensive comments about nishtanu ho-itim and Chodosh assur min haTorah for a different time.
Suffice it to say that I was taught that all the Lubavitcher Rebbes were the same.... I even believe the last nasi said exactly this when he assumed the leadership in 1951.
calling the Rashab's policies about the rabbinate in Russia askanus shows where Luabvitch stands today . The Rashab was not an askan he was a RAV and manhig Yisroel and in these issues he was talking psak- DAAS TORAH - not askanus. This were not tactical or political issues that askanim dla with , thesew ere Torah issues and as the great rabbi Moshe Hecht of New Haven always said The TORAH NEVER CHANGES
Perhaps the times have changed and now is the right time to forget about beards and lange gartlech why not ? It makes as much sense as what you right in terms of recognizing Reform Rabbis.
what lubavitch needs in these dark times is some serious Rabbinic leadership .
Rabeisai the Chasam Sofer did not invent Chodesh assur min HaTorah - zoas HaTorah lo tehe Muchlefes !!! And you do not have to be from Bergszas or Kashoi to believe in the ETERNAL values of Torah principles.
The CS fought Refrom rav Hirsch fought Reform in Germany The Zemach Zedek fought Dr, Lilienthal in Russia The Agudas Horabbonim in the US fought Reform, The Chidushe Horim fought Reform in Warsaw,the machzikei hadaas fought Reform in Lemberg and Galicia, the chief rabbinate fights and fought Reform in Israel today and for the last 70 years. THe OU has fought Reform in the US, the chief rabbinate of the UK from rabbi NM Adler and Dr. JH Hertz to our day fights Reform(in a very fervent manner) and even your great chasid Lord Sachs the chief rabbi of the UK until very recently; refused to participate in any events in which a non-orthodox rabbi participated in(He probably lacked a clear telephone connection with the bosses in 770). The only Orthodox group that does not fight Reform is Rabbi Avi Weiss and YCT , perhaps you ought to reach out to them for support. But suddenly Chabad says the times have changed and Reform does not need to be fought. I am not certain which is worse the vilde Messianism pervasive in CH and Israel or this new hashkofa.
Be well
Shneur
ReplyDelete"calling the Rashab's policies about the rabbinate in Russia askanus shows where Luabvitch stands today . The Rashab was not an askan he was a RAV and manhig Yisroel and in these issues he was talking psak- DAAS TORAH - not askanus. This were not tactical or political issues that askanim dla with , thesew ere Torah issues and as the great rabbi Moshe Hecht of New Haven always said The TORAH NEVER CHANGES"
What a Mekushar!!!!! more sensitive then the Rebbe calling it askunas in Hayom Yom... I guess you former Mashpia the Mekushar Reb Moshe was still from doir Hashishi, and they knew Hiskashrus better.
Your attack looks like attacking me for writing the Rebbe Reshab ate by a Farbrenbgen... how I dare to write Eating on a rebbe, In Pizza store people eat... but Rebbes????
There is askunas of Zwiebel,Sherer, Hikind and Greenfeld. They do it there baal batish way, then we have a Rebbe doing askunas the Rebbe Reshab way....
Shneur
ReplyDelete"Rabeisai the Chasam Sofer did not invent Chodesh assur min HaTorah - zoas HaTorah lo tehe Muchlefes !!!"
Sorry to bust your hot air balloon, but he did invent that phrase,and he knew it has noting to to do with "zoas HaTorah lo tehe Muchlefes" dont over-hype it more then the inventor of the phrase
He writes in Teshuvas Orech Chaim, 148, its Margelie Bepimie.... its my phrase that I use. in Even Ezer in a teshuva, he finishes it off as a nice Vertel (Halotza Nueh)
it is definite a trend that he took in all ways of Hanhogas Hklal.
Even on the 13 Ikrim he has is own unique ways as his last teshuva in YD..
Schneur
ReplyDelete"The CS fought Refrom rav Hirsch fought Reform in Germany The Zemach Zedek fought Dr, Lilienthal in Russia The Agudas Horabbonim in the US fought Reform, The Chidushe Horim fought Reform in Warsaw,the machzikei hadaas fought Reform in Lemberg and Galicia, the chief rabbinate fights and fought Reform in Israel today and for the last 70 years. THe OU has fought Reform in the US, the chief rabbinate of the UK from rabbi NM Adler and Dr. JH Hertz to our day fights Reform(in a very fervent manner) and even your great chasid Lord Sachs the chief rabbi of the UK until very recently; refused to participate in any events in which a non-orthodox rabbi participated in"
Your list is massive, but still the Rebbe decided on his own, and you can realy find it based on his FIL directives, not to fight them, because sorry to say that your list, did not diminish the reform movement 1 iota, it just build a barrier that whoever is on our side should keep put, and unfortunately our side was shrinking and they were increasing.
after the war the Rebbe and so did Rav Wienberg of Aish Hatorah, Rav Pam of shuvu, Rav shach of Lev Leachim, belzer rebbe of torah vemunah, that to fight for the sake of fighting, because my grndfather had this title,gets no where. they and many others saw a world ripe for kiruv, from every walk of life. And they have done wonders, far far from fixing this massive churban that Reform and other ISM had damaged us.
In addition to all this, the Reform Movement is on his way of becoming obsolete in a couple of decades, as they admitted lately in many articles. And the Pew study, just made that fact more official scientifically. Jacobs is basically admitting that they were wrong, and Chabad (Orthodox Jewry) was correct, but he is not ready to give up his well paid position and close shop.
If Dr. Lilentahl, would be at that stage of Jacobs by the Tzemach Tzedek... he would of accept him, Plus Lilenthal was out to shmad every Jew in Russia, Jacobs is now containing his tinuk shenishbe turf.
There was joining organizations, in roundtable fashion or any other way....
You are trying to stir up some porridge of hollow arguments, your chabad yeridas hadorois theology is something that you are striving to prove for decades.... Analogies to YCT is shtusim....I did not see in 770 a RABBAT by the sefer torah yet.
The Rabonim in Chabad,Brown, Shvie, Ashkenazi, Raskin,Yaraslovsky, Shochet, Raichik are not into relaxing every day a other Issur....as the agenda of YCT...
schneur
ReplyDelete" I am not certain which is worse the vilde Messianism pervasive in CH and Israel"
I am no Meshichist,and I am against them, but time has proven they are not so bad. they have a Meshugaz... Reb Nachman writes in Sichas Haran, Meshugaz in emuna even if it is Narishkiet is also good..Too much sichel is worse. Breslover can use it on Na Nach, and chabad can use it on the Meshichisten...
schneur
ReplyDelete"If Lubavitch believes that Reform has no attraction today and is oysgeshpilt they really suffer from a total disconnect with whats going on in the US"
it is a Machlokes Harishonim, between a individual who sits in his cubicle in some office, vs. thousands upon thousands of men and women doing legwork in every city in the USA where Jews and the reform movement exist.
Sitting in their office and their cubicle . Hmmm. seems to me there was another gentleman who sat in his office most of his life and claimed to know ,what was best for all of World Jewry down to the last details. Don't you agree ?
ReplyDeleteSchneur
ReplyDelete" Hmmm. seems to me there was another gentleman who sat in his office most of his life and claimed to know"
we live in a free society and you can doubt the claim of the gentleman..
but he still employed a massive focus group that reported to him on a daily basis....
A Sabbath in Park Slope and Bklyn Hts and the Upper wast Side will tell anyone the truth .the local Refrom groups etc have many more people on Shabbath than the Chabad groups. So my suggestion leave the cubicle of CH and go to PS BH and send my regards to rabbis Andy Bachman and Ellen Lipman.
ReplyDeleteSchneur
ReplyDelete"A Sabbath in Park Slope and Bklyn Hts and the Upper wast Side will tell anyone the truth .the local Refrom groups etc have many more people on Shabbath than the Chabad groups. So my suggestion leave the cubicle of CH and go to PS BH and send my regards to rabbis Andy Bachman and Ellen Lipman."
Did any one say that they closed shop??
Did anyone claim that they will all be chabadniks on day? also not, they will probably assimilate to Goyim Gemurim
It was only said that they are decrying their future... by realizing that they were wrong....in realizing they have only few decades to go...
Mielech
ReplyDeleteYou are way off the mark. Reform has 3 rabbinical seminaries in the US ordaining over 75 rabbis yearly(maybe more) . They have hundreds of temples and are active in " Jewish" life. They have a powerful youth group - NIFTY
They are far from realizing their errors. By the way do you read their literature like REFORM JUDAISM or the CCAR Journal. Try to get copies and you will see they are not waving white flag.
In Yuppie NYC or as you fellows like to call it Brownstone Brooklyn, Reform is much more active than Chabad. You may write them off but they have NOT written themselves off. And what Chabad did was give them a chiyus bepoel mamash
The same Pew report and focus groups you refer to also says that outreach has made little inroads in Jewish life.(I am not sure this is really correct)
Take a look at Marvin Schick's cover story in the JP 2 weeks ago and what he says about the need to re-evaluate Chabad outreach programming. So how about that you agree with that after all the focus group says so ?
Schneur
ReplyDeleteI repeated many times, that Reform movement is on its way out, not because of Chabad,Oir someach, Oorah etc...
Its a dying enterprise, this is what pew concluded, I know that Orthodox outreach is not touching the tip of the iceberg of the assimilation problem, I don't need Marvin schicks article, which has noting original to say and no focus group.
The reform movement still has many temples that will be around for a another few decades, so they obviously need rabonim,Old Rabonim retire,replacements are needed, but it is on his way out , look at the findings of PEW, you are going in circles forever