The Rebbe and the Rav
YU Chabad Club special event. A panel featuring Rabbi Moshe Weinberger, Rav Zevulun Charlop, Rabbi Yehuda Krinsky, Rabbi Dr. Jacob J. Schacter, Rabbi Yosef Y. Jacobson and Dr. Lawrence Schiffman, highlighting the relationship between the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Rav Soloveitchik. Audio starts about a minute into the recording.
Listen Here
Very big "whatever"...
ReplyDeleteThis panel is a joke in an academic setting.
In academia you use critical analyses of a subject.The esteemed individuals here are Lubavitch sympathisers (i don't know much about R'Schachter)or card carrying members of Lubavitch.
Why didn't they get R'Hershel Schachter to discuss this issue for example??
So you can call it a cute farbrengen with Lubavitch sympathisers.
R'yoshe Ber in reality was not at all close with the Rebbe and he knew a thing or two about Lubavitch.In his own words quoted by his assistant David Holzer he says "lubavitch i know, this rebbe i don't understand", the context there was that he did not "get the rebbe"
He may have seen him in the 50 years that they shared in America three(!) times.
So you"ll have r'jacobson who was about 20 when the rov passed away (20 years passed his prime)etc...
Btw Did R'Moshe weinberger attend his shiur at y.u?
well, once thing's for sure: Shlomo sees red when he sees Lubavitch...
ReplyDeleteKudos to Rabbi Weinberger for admitting that he knows nothing about "the relationship between the two"
ReplyDeleteRabbi Weinberger goes on to claim that R'levi YItzchok the Rebbes father was a "talmid of derech halimud of brisk", really?
im still listening
Shlomo,
ReplyDeleteI didn't listen to the speech, but Rav Weinberger was probably referring to Rav Levi Yitzchak Schneerson's semicha from Reb Chaim.
Shlomo
ReplyDeleteThat event was not a academic event,
when Justin Bieber or other shemagegy makes a concert in Harvard, its not a academic neither. It was a simple gathering of people reminiscing their nostalgic good old days. Your chabad hate blows up the event out of proportion in order to start bashing.
Rav Krinsky is a Boston kid, and knew the Rav before anybody in that auditorium.
Yossi Jacobson went to yeshiva in Boston which was in the last years of the Rav,90% of the orthodoxy in Boston/Brookline was under the spell of the Rav in that town,plus Rabbi Ciment the dean of the chabad yeshiva, a staunch Ish emes, has a lot to talk about the Rav...
While all you know is eating Flaums herring and barking like a fool
shlomo
ReplyDelete"Rabbi Weinberger goes on to claim that R'levi YItzchok the Rebbes father was a "talmid of derech halimud of brisk", really?"
what do you know of Reb Levi Yitzchoks derech halimud in Nigleh? we would all like to know.
One think I know, that the Reshab wanted his yeshivas should learn nigleh, on the path of brisk, he did not use the term Brisk in Eitz Chaim, but he meant it.
Reb Levik was not a talmid of tomche temimim, but a talmid of the Reshab he was.
The title should be The Rav and the Rebbe since this circus is being conducted in the place where the Rav taught Torah to thousands of students. But of course this is only a chance for chabad to say that their Rebbe is the only true hero of Judaism.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDelete"The title should be The Rav and the Rebbe since this circus is being conducted in the place where the Rav taught Torah to thousands of students. But of course this is only a chance for chabad to say that their Rebbe is the only true hero of Judaism. "
Very Very Very strong intelligent point
So far it seems that all the commenters were not in attendance at the event. I, however was there and it was a phenomenal success and all in attendance learned a thing or two about the 'hidden' relationship between the Rebbe and the Rav. The naysayers will continue to spew their negative vitriol because that is where their vitality comes from-nebech. For those of you who are genuinely looking to learn and grow there is much to savor in these addresses especially Rabbis Weinberger and Jacobson. Enjoy!
ReplyDeleteShloma
ReplyDelete"his assistant David Holzer he says "lubavitch i know, this rebbe i don't understand", the context there was that he did not "get the rebbe"
Being that the Rav was friendly and in awe of the Rebbe, does not make the Rav into a chosid of the Rebbe with full bittul, to agree on all the rebbe said with full bitul
He differed with his great Ziede Reb chaim too,on too many things.
You are nebech trying to cook something, with no hatzlocha what so ever.
In the talks of Holtzer( which was stupid and selfserving to print) he talks against the Mizrachi,even tough he was basically the president of that movement and build up a theology for them in his 5 Deroshas...
He was not made of herd mentality,
There are too many letters to the Rebbe, which are appearing lately more and more, where you can only see his respect and awe of the Rebbe. You can choose not to believe no talks of shechter,Rakefet, Krinsky, etc... but the letters are too strong to ignore
return to your hate cave and find some new hate bait
Bashing,
ReplyDeletePlease stop constantly changing your name.
Try , if you are able to, make this a discussion, not a feeble attempt at making people into Chabad.It's infantile.
Now you claim R'Levi Yitzchok was a talmid of the Resha"b.I guess you are trying to say he he actually learned from him and Reshab like the Brisker analytical approach.Maybe.Of course Reshab never gave public discourses in Talmud, but a smart man,in this case R'Levi Yitzchok would be able to use the same analytical tools taught in a Chasidic Maamar, for talmudical analysis.
Anyway, what R' Weiniberger was probably alluding as another poster said to was the semicha r'levy got from r'chaim, and as the rebbe said once in a farbrengen i believe: רי חיים האט אים שטארק געמוטשעט till he made sure he deserved the semicha.
"what do you know of Reb Levi Yitzchoks derech halimud in Nigleh"
Um, what do YOU know about it, eh?
I am NOT quite sure that R'Weinberger knows to much about R'Levis "derech benigleh"
"While all you know is eating Flaums herring and barking like a fool"
I don't like herring, actually............
"There are too many letters to the Rebbe, which are appearing lately more and more, where you can only see his respect and awe of the Rebbe. "
ReplyDeleteWhere are those letters?
Can you show a link?
Holzers book was not stupid.He taped or jotted down what Rabbi Soloveichik spoke to him about.These are transcription of real conversations which give one an inside view of the Rav
You never read the book , probably, but still you call it "stupid"
What does that make you?
Hungary
ReplyDeletehttp://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2014/05/power-of-gedolim-pictures-yartzheit-of.html
shlomo
ReplyDeleteLately there were 2 new letters in Hichel Habesht.
Hirshel had a few letters on his site thru the years
shlomo
ReplyDelete"Now you claim R'Levi Yitzchok was a talmid of the Resha"b.I guess you are trying to say he he actually learned from him and Reshab like the Brisker analytical approach.Maybe.Of course Reshab never gave public discourses in Talmud, but a smart man,in this case R'Levi Yitzchok would be able to use the same analytical tools taught in a Chasidic Maamar, for talmudical analysis."
its no a claim that he was a talmid its a fact..
shlomo
ReplyDelete""what do you know of Reb Levi Yitzchoks derech halimud in Nigleh"
Um, what do YOU know about it, eh?"
I admit I dont know and I keep my mouth shut
shlomo
ReplyDelete"Holzers book was not stupid.He taped or jotted down what Rabbi Soloveichik spoke to him abou"
its not me that is saing that,
its the talmidim and admirers of the Rav that said it at the time it was printed
shlomo
ReplyDelete"You never read the book , probably, but still you call it "stupid""
I read the book and I purchased the book.
shlomo
ReplyDelete""While all you know is eating Flaums herring and barking like a fool"
I don't like herring, actually............"
so I apologize for the herring accusation , but stay correct on the barking
shlomo
ReplyDelete"Try , if you are able to, make this a discussion, not a feeble attempt at making people into Chabad"
chabad at this point does not need you,
they have a overload of tipshim..
Shlomo
ReplyDelete"Holzers book was not stupid.He taped or jotted down what Rabbi Soloveichik spoke to him about.These are transcription of real conversations which give one an inside view of the Rav"
you are asking why it was stupid? because a Bar Daath will not print personal recollections of a person that put your trust on to you,
it is cheap, vulgar, and Stupid..
Look at the tolna leaks to see you made a mistake...
DeleteFind out more than the official PR
ReplyDeletehttp://pitputim.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/what-did-the-lubavitcher-rebbe-really-think-of-the-rav/
Quote from Thinking Aloud, Transcripts of Personal Conversations with Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, by David Holzer, p. 154
ReplyDelete"The Rav said that he personally is far from Chabad...."
The nice words the Rav said about the Rebbe are not such a big thing. He said greater things on Rav Aharon Kotler zt"l, like Rav Aharon is the urim vetumim of our generation.
ReplyDeleteWill they now have a program at YU on the Rav and Rav Aharon??
The event was a Lubavitch propaganda event, plain and simple.
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=71232
ReplyDeleteOk you asked for the link to letters between the Rav and the Rebbe..... Here it is!!
Go down a bit to find them
"chabad at this point does not need you,
ReplyDeletethey have a overload of tipshim.."
Uh oh,
So you admit that there are to many tipshim in chabad!
So we actually do agree about a few things..........
ReplyDeleteוויליאמסבורגער באשער
"it is cheap, vulgar, and Stupid..'
How can the book be "stupid" if it's a transcription of Rabbi Soloveichiks actual conversations??
Not easy for you to understand, I know, because you are a חג`ת-ניק,
וואס פרובירט צו פראווען מכלומרש`ט חבד`סקער שטיק און בלייבט קרח מיט
חג"ת הבנה און חבדסקע משוגע`תן
In the links to the article below (scroll down to its end) are an assortment of the Rebbe and the Rav's kesharim:
ReplyDeletehttp://shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=71604
And in the following teshuros (of Rabbi Krinsky's eineklach):
Page 26 in
http://www.teshura.com/teshurapdf/Futerfas-Kaminetzky%20-%20Sivan%203%2C%205771.pdf
And pages 19-20 in
http://www.teshura.com/teshurapdf/Krinsky-Schmukler%20-%20Elul%2015%205770.pdf
Ben Eliezer,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the links.
I don't see anything special .
Lets check the first letter from the Krisky grandchildren teshura on page 26.
Very little.R'Krinsky tells him that R'Soloveichik teaches the last half hour of the shiur given in Elul, Likutei Torah, and the Rebbe wants to give him a sefer from the Zemach Zedek with notes on Likutei Torah.Where do you see any closeness? For Lubavitch, the fact that the esteemed leader of Modern Orthodoxy in America teaches Chabad literature is a big thing.In fact the Rebbe would rather not let on that he wanted the Zemach Zedeks book sent over.Does that sound close?
Next letter is the Rebbe sending Rabbi Soloveichik shana tova wishes.Again, don't see much here.
Another is a request from two Yeshiva U. talmidim asking for the Rebbe to send a shtikkel torah for a periodical honoring Rav Soloveichik which the Rebbe declines .
Lastly this to me is classic chabad: "רבי יוסף דוב הלוי סאלאוויצ'יק היה מהמעריצים הגדולים של כ"ק אדמו"ר זי"ע, ואף נפגש עמו מספר פעמים."
What is the chiddush that "he even met him a COUPLE of times"?(in 50 years...)
Is that a sign of being close?
The way I see it is that Rav Soloveichik had a fondness for Lubavitch having grown up in a shtetel with Lubavitchers and a Lubavitch melamed (im not sure he was all that happy with..)and unlike others from his litvishe background, both an understanding and knowledge of the Baal Hatanyas Chasidic works.
I"m quite skeptical about anymore than that.Off course i could be wrong, but based on what his main talmidim appear to hold and suffice it to say that they are not the biggest chabad fans, the Holzer book and Soloveichik family anecdotes, i feel that is more korov loemes.An objective person will not accept Chabad stories at face value A)because they have an objective to show that everyone accepts and is close and B)A type of tunnel vision which does not allow them to see things in its real perspective.A glance at books by Sholom B Volpe, such as shemen sosson mechaverecho will show what i mean.
Of course it could be that Rav Soloveichik showed different facets of his personality to different people and chose not to show his closeness to chabad to close talmidim and family.
I have heard that his son Prof Hayim, has said that the rav did not even meet the rebbe in berlin, again i may be wrong about this and will be happy to see decent proofs to any side
It's difficult to tolerate all this hypocrisy. Does Lubavitch really approve of the MO lifestyle represented by RYDS? Does the MO world really approve of the meshiach-crazed Lubavitch movement? They are all sitting and smiling together in a room belonging to a school that one of it's current heads (Prof. David Berger) wrote a book accusing Lubavitch of being as harmful as Christianity! Besides that, YU rants and raves against the Litvishe world for being "cavemen" and not attending college and being part of the bigger cultural world", yet the Rebbe zt"l started Oholei Torah where no secular studies are learned at all, even in elementary school! How further apart can one be! Why does Lubavitch so desperately crave recognition from RYDS; they are fully aware of all the complaints the Litvishe world has against him and agree with them!
ReplyDeleteKovner
ReplyDeletethis is the "YU Chabad Club" that's doing this. It wasn't held in 770...
Kovner
ReplyDeleteOur world has no tolerance for any other Jew that has a slightly different view then the other person.This hate mongering and balkanization of orthodox Jewry gets worse by the day,a event like this should be refreshing for every Jew that is still half normal.
If the event was something that could bring Jews together, that should be a day of rejoicing, not a day of scratching some old hatreds... a big institution includes a david berger that has his chabad hangover. Should the whole Mossad be ostracized,. Its Bergers view that he and some friends like Gil Student worked tirelessly to publicize, but got no grip. it made Berger even more bitter, As Hirshel had lately posted, Berger going beserk in public.
Genug shoin
ReplyDelete"The nice words the Rav said about the Rebbe are not such a big thing. He said greater things on Rav Aharon Kotler zt"l, like Rav Aharon is the urim vetumim of our generation.
Will they now have a program at YU on the Rav and Rav Aharon??
The event was a Lubavitch propaganda event, plain and simple."
Reb Aron Used Rav Yoshe Ber of Boston when he needed funds for his issues, eventough he was mad at him, so Chabad is using him too.
The got the Heter out of the Kotler book..
Shlomo
ReplyDelete"
The way I see it is that Rav Soloveichik had a fondness for Lubavitch having grown up in a shtetel with Lubavitchers and a Lubavitch melamed (im not sure he was all that happy with."
Ferd
Did you ever read RJBS torah?
What a chutzpa of some ignoramous to get involved BIen Heorim Hagdolim..
Shlomo
ReplyDelete"For Lubavitch, the fact that the esteemed leader of Modern Orthodoxy in America"
Lubavich does not look at RJBS thru a lens of labels like you are educated.
there are chasidim and non chasidim yet, shomrie torah and non shomrie torah yet.
There are no Agudisten Mizrachisten, MO and all this labels (that is a sad reminder of the yellow star)
RJBS was the goan hadoir, a bigger goan then his uncle of Yerushaliem, from the famous families of Brisk and Valozhin. His learning Tanya Likutie torah, Mitteler rebbe torah was a big Kibush....
Nobody cares what ferd like you have partitioned into our Klal yisroel..
Shlomo
ReplyDeleteafter all the above that you are putting in your two cents, and all what people like Krinsky and others are only chabad lies
Eventough there are still more and more letters that he wrote the rebbe.
but noting will be proof anyways...
shlomo
ReplyDelete"A type of tunnel vision which does not allow them to see things in its real perspective"
good description of the shlomo that started writing on this blog
@shlomo
ReplyDeletelook at the link i posted to shturem. Pretty nice letter from RYDS to the Rebbe.
here is the loshon for a copy of the original and the Rebbe's response see the link
כבוד אדמו"ר, הגאון הגדול, עטרת ישראל, הודו ותפארתו, צדיק יסוד עולם, מרן מנחם מ. שניאורסון, שליט"א!
שלו' וברכה רבה ונאמנה!
אני מגיש בזה את ברכתי הדלה, ברכת הדיוט, למעכ"ג, שליט"א, יחד עם אלפי מעריציו בכל קצוי ארץ אני מתפלל ומתחנן לא' מרום, כי יפרוש את סוכת שלומו עליו וכי יאריך את ימיו ושנותיו בטוב ובנעימים, ללמד תועים בינה וצמאים יראה, חכמה ודעת, עד כי יבא שילה. יפוצו מעיינותיו חוצה, ילכו רבים לאורו ותמלא הארץ דעה. אך טוב וחסד ירדפוהו תמיד כל הימים.בהערצה ובחיבה גדולה
יוסף ב. הלוי סולובייצ'ק
ברכת מועדים לששון ולשמחה, חג כשר ושמח!
יום ב' י"ב ניסן תשל"ב
Here is another relevant quote from Thinking Aloud, Transcripts of Personal Conversations with Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, by David Holzer -
ReplyDeleteP.241 - The Rav: "I'm not a Lubavitcher chassid [audience laughter]"
Why do you think the audience was laughing? Because the whole notion was so absurd.
Re the previous comment on the Rav and Rav Aharon Kotler zt"l - I don't know if he compared Rav Aharon to the urim vetumim, but he did give him great shvochim, comparing him to the Vilna Gaon, Rav Akiva Eger, and his zeide, Rav Chaim Brisker, in the famous address at the Chinuch Atzmai dinner.
ReplyDeleteFor more on this and the 'special relationship' between the Rav and Rav Aharon Kotler and his mishpocho, see http://mschick.blogspot.com/2012/04/remembrances-and-reflections-viii-rav.html
So the Lubavitchers are deluding themselves if they think that Rav Yoshe Ber, the Rav, only praised the Rebbe, and no one else highly. He praised the Rav Aharon, arch-nemesis of Lubavitch, very highly, in superlative terms.
Lemayseh, the event fell quite short of the great success Lubavitch was dreaming of for their most audacious and dramatic incursion into YU territory. Lamport auditorium, the great hall where the Rav used to give shiurim to massive crowds, as Reb Yosef Yitzchak Jacobson said, 1750 people, was less than half full, with many empty seats (even the Lubavitcher Crownheights.info site only claimed there were 700 there (http://crownheights.info/chabad-news/434202/living-the-legacy-of-the-rebbe-and-the-rav/). And a significant portion of the attendees were Lubavitchers. Chasidim of the Rav, people like R. Hershel Schachter, R. Shalom Carmy, and others, were conspicuously absent. Even the MO rank and file recognized the event for what it was, an attempt to convince a new, young, and naive generation, that the Rav and the Rebbe were closer than they actually were. Sheker ein lo raglayim. So it flopped.
ReplyDeleteThe whole panel, just about, was comprised of people with prior connections and affinity to Lubavitch, thereby leaving a big question mark over it.
ReplyDeleteLawrence Schiffman was at the farbrengen in 1980. Is he a Lubavitcher BT? R. J.J. Schachter has deep Lubavitch connections. But at least he threw some cold water on the baloney that RYBS was a best buddy of the Rebbe.
Also, the 1980 farbrengen visit was staged by Lubavitch and was not a spontaneous move by RYBS. Lubavitchers pressed him to come and he gave in, he was a tzubrochene alter Yid then.
I wasn't there, and I didn't listen. BUT - you do not have to agree with people to have a relationship and even a strong personal connection to them, regardless of how often you do or don't speak to them.
ReplyDeleteI have friends that I don;t see or speak to for years at a time, and yet, we share a very special bond.
"Eventough there are still more and more letters that he wrote the rebbe."
ReplyDeleteThe letters are from the Rebbe to him
Lets see links to letters he wrote the rebbe
Wow, this site is ugly sometimes. The Rebbe is mamesh rolling in his grave. Go to the ohel and beg mechila for claiming to be one of his and then spewing this filth. I don't care what or who the topic is, your behavior/words/tone is appalling. At the very least take note of the civility and middos tovos between the gedolim here. You should all be ashamed. Some chossidishe site this is....
ReplyDelete@shlomo
ReplyDeletefor goodness sake!
look at the link to shturem posted above. Very very nice letter from him to the Rebbe.
But it was probably forged right?
what are you going to come up with next?
"look at the link to shturem posted above. Very very nice letter from him to the Rebbe."
ReplyDeleteI saw the letter, later on and it's a nice letter.
Don't see them being very close from this letter, though.
Someone already posted a link from Isaac Balbins, pitputim blog.
ReplyDeleteIsaac used to post here regularly till I guess he could not take the idiot who has been posting irritating and illiterate comments here.Additionally the poster Schneuor a commenter who regularly posted and also could not take it any longer.
Both these posters and especially Schneour know a lot about Rabbi Soloveichik and the Rebbe.Isaac makes his caseon his blog and i believe R'schneour would concur, but cannot speak for him
Shlomo
ReplyDelete"Lets see links to letters he wrote the rebbe"
what will happen if you see the letters, you will realize that ????
as you were told already, you are tipesh, and chabad does not need more tipshim...
just bug off
Reaaly
ReplyDeleteplease dont argue with this idiot...
Emes
ReplyDelete"Also, the 1980 farbrengen visit was staged by Lubavitch and was not a spontaneous move by RYBS. Lubavitchers pressed him to come and he gave in, he was a tzubrochene alter Yid then."
can you testify that Reb Yudel Krinsky is untruthful.if you would know him , he is a very straight upstanding man.
He was friendly with him since a youngster in Boston, he was his first talmid in his Cheder, he was by his bris.His father was the top shochet that he used to establish a shecuta mehderes in the triefene Boston.
From the whole panel he knew the Rav the best and in the most personal level, as he told him 1 day out of the blue, Your father was a big Akshen,(stubborn)he wanted to have all his 9 kids frum in the old days of Boston and he achieved it,
In my eyes the whole event was worthwhileif we would just have the story of the 2 hour walk to the chabad shul in Dorchester, on the first 2 nights of Pesach,for Halel with a Berocha. Eventough the Nefesh Harav (Shechter) has his own lomdus for saying Halel, not based on the AR, as Reb Shmaye told his little boy then on the street.But it is possible that he said that reason too, which Reb Hirshel Shechter never heard.
But the idiots on this Blog especialy shlomo the new member of chabad hate club, will only chew if there are other letters too, as if it matters.
In response to Moshe wolf of Monday, May 05, 2014 5:35:00 AM, re the remarks of Rabbi Krinsky at the event -
ReplyDeleteIt is true that he said that Rav Soloveitchik expressed a desire a few months to see the Lubavitcher Rebbe. However, just talked about seeing him in general, stam, and didn't specify a time. He may have wanted a more private meeting, like the other times he met him in America, in a house, when he went to be menachem aveil. The fact that Lubavitch arranged it that the Rav should go, as part of such a high profile event, was arranged by Lubavitcher R. Abraham Shemtov. Typical of Lubavitch PR machine to do so, to make it look like an endorsement by the Rav of the whole Lubavitch enterprise, rather than just a reunion of old acquaintances from Europe.
Another thing, I was quite surprised to hear R. Krinsky describe the Rav going to a Lubavitcher minyan on Pesach night for Hallel as doing so to uphold the psak of the Alter Rebbe. That is not why the Rav did it! He did it for his own reason(s), he held it was right. Typical for Lubavitch to spin and view everything in its own narrow way.
ReplyDeleteand we should take your word over his, why?
ReplyDeleteIt is well known that the Rav had his own shita and lomdus re hallel on Shul on Pesach night, which he taught to his talmidim. Ask YU chevre, see seforim of his talmidim, such as Rav Hershel Schachter shlita. In Shuls where the Rav's influence is strong they say it due to that.
ReplyDeleteIts poshut anyway. Since when does a Brisker, the Rav, automatically follow the Alter Rebbe's psak (unless they come to same conclusion a different way)? Additionally, as R. Krinsky himself mentioned, the Alter Rebbe says in his Shulchan Aruch to not say hallel in Shul then, it is just in his siddur that it is otherwise.
Obviously the Rav was kidding. But R. Yudel thought he meant it seriously? Come on. R. Yudel, being from a non Lubavitch background should know better. I guess he has been in Lubavitch so long that he has forgotten his roots.
"rather than just a reunion of old acquaintances from Europe."
ReplyDeleteThe Rav was a Brisker,
I wish I could actually get confirmation if the two even knew each other in Berlin.Apparently according to his son Hayim they did not (or at the most had met..something to that extent)
Berlin at the time had over 4 million people and about 160 thousand Jews.So it's not as if we are talking about a small village where everyone knew each other.Of course maybe they did, but someone has to come up with some more evidence , and the best person to know the facts would be professor Hayim Soloveichik,as a son...
From what I know, in the fifty years that they lived in New York, they met twice, when Rav Soloveichik made a shiva call for the rebbes mother and later for his mother in law, and a third time when he came to the farbrengen.
I would love to see some actual backing up for any of the things the Lubavitchers here are trying to say.
Additionally they had very little in common when it came to hashkafa.
Lets see now:College.The Rebbe was quite against it, even banning secular studies for children in Oholei Torah, the Lubavitcher boys school under his presidency.While Rav Soloveichik was a very big proponent of Tora Umadda
Zionism: The Rebbe , at least by Lubavich claims, was vehemently opposes, while Rav Soloveichik was a member of the Zionistic Mizrachi party andan ardent Zionist.
So theologically they for sure were not close by any measure.What remains to be ascertained is how close they were on a personal basis.So after all the back and forth there are very few letters,some critical comments and literature as Balbin points out..
So we are left with a mutual appreciation.I guess that this would be the best way to describe this association
More on the Rav:
ReplyDeleteIn this letter (2nd paragraph), the Rayatz writes about how his son-in-law knows the Rav and his maalos. He definitely knew him, the testimonies that attest as such - from his own talmidim, Shachter, Kovalsky etc - including his impressions of the Rebbe going regularly to mikvah - outweigh Prof. Haym's hypothesis:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31601&st=&pgnum=442&hilite=
I don't know if this was brought here before. In the margins - are the ichulim the Rav sent the Rebbe for his 70th yom huledes:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15954&st=&pgnum=454&hilite=
Re Hallel -
ReplyDeleteSo if, as some posters here claim, that it was Brisker derech to say Hallel leil Pesach - why didn't he do it in his own Shul? He was after all the Mora d'asra in shtot, and certainly in his own Shul! Why was he mat'riach to walk there - apparently to also be mechazek the Alter Rebbe's kav in this.
The minhag hagra is to say hallel in shul on leil haseder. (Rav Soloveitchik held btw that this can only be accomplished with a tzibbur, see the aforementioned seforim.) If he was makpid to do so himself, we can just use some common sense, was he makpid because of the Gaon or because of the Alter Rebbe?
ReplyDeleteWhat ever you wrote I mentioned earlier, that in the nefesh harav the Rav has his lomdus, and in the Minhag Avosinai (Monsey ) it is mentioned too
ReplyDeleteThe krinsky family is a old chasidic family. Why should they know some brisker lomdus. It was publicized in the nefesh harav 20 years ago.
Krinsky is talking a story in the 1930's
Lubavicher PR
ReplyDelete" The fact that Lubavitch arranged it that the Rav should go, as part of such a high profile event, was arranged by Lubavitcher R. Abraham Shemtov."
From Krinsky story you see that he told months earlier that He wanted to see the Rebbe....
You can choose to stick to your hate story if it makes you feel better
Superintended
ReplyDeleteit was definitely for the GRA, but being a chosid of the Alte Rebbe on his chasidus, it probably helped that the AR said it in siddur too
Divrie Ben Amram
ReplyDelete"So if, as some posters here claim, that it was Brisker derech to say Hallel leil Pesach - why didn't he do it in his own Shul? He was after all the Mora d'asra in shtot, and certainly in his own Shul! Why was he mat'riach to walk there - apparently to also be mechazek the Alter Rebbe's kav in this."
youy question is well intended,
but you are naive not to know how tough it was to change a old minhag ashkenaz.
Thr Brisker have a whole new lifestyle based on their new way of halacha, not basing on shulchan orech. more leaning to their kvetch in a Rambam, but they could not change the Shul of the town 1 inch.
Maybe they did their minhogim in the Yeshiva that they established in Brisk, which is questionable, since in Brisk they only learned with a elite group.
The Rav said that his talmidim should try to do this minhag in their shuls if possible, since most of them were new established communities
Lubavicher Pr
ReplyDelete"It is true that he said that Rav Soloveitchik expressed a desire a few months to see the Lubavitcher Rebbe. However, just talked about seeing him in general, stam, and didn't specify a time. He may have wanted a more private meeting"
He may have wanted....
Why are you saying this?
Maybe he wanted to see a farbrenbgen with Chasidim, he loved chasidim,
You ever saw his nostalgic talk of the shalash seudas of the Modozitzer shtibel in Warsaw..He loved a chasidic matzav, he loved the view of just seeing gerer chasidim traveling to Gur..
Get off you crazy hate wagon
shlomo
ReplyDelete"while Rav Soloveichik was a member of the Zionistic Mizrachi party andan ardent Zionist."
according to holtzer,your bible on soloviechigisim, he was not a Zionist at all, not even Mizrachi, stick to your fact guides
"Superintendant Chalmers said...
ReplyDeleteThe minhag hagra is to say hallel in shul on leil haseder"
Not true. There is no mention of the GRA doing it in Maaseh Rav, where his minhogim are recorded. Ay some do it in Eretz Yisroel? They picked up some foreign things from the Sfardim there a long time ago, when Ashkenazim weren't allowed to live in Yerushalayim and they posed as Sfardim.
"Anonymous Beacon said...
ReplyDeleteThe krinsky family is a old chasidic family. "
Nein. R. Yudel's father wasn't a Lubavitcher.
What is the next step here?
ReplyDeleteThe Chabad club needs to start petitioning for a f/t Chabad house at YU. And all students, esp. rabbinical, to have to study Tanya and Sichos kaydesh.
Appointing R. Weinberger as f/t YU Chasidic missionary is not enough. He is a Chagasnik, not a real Lubavitcher.
מה בין בני לבן חמ,
ReplyDelete"
To quote hearsay from Prof. Hayyim is absolutely ludicrous"
Quoting a son is ludicrous???
What planet are you from?
(Btw, what's with your hateful name??)
I just watched Rabbi Kovalskys video.
It could be they knew each other from Berlin, maybe.Even according to those stories they did not seem close.The last story on the tape, that if i understood correctly,was told by Rav Soloveichik, stretches credibility quite a bit.The story is that the rebbe attended university classes with a gemorah, and when the professor asked him about it, he said "what's the problem i can repeat what you said", is stretching it.Did Rav Soloveichik attend university with the rebbe in berlin at all?
Maybe.
As i've said, maybe they knew each other, i don't see any evidence of a closeness or friendship.Even Rabbi Kovalsaky's story is that HE approached Rav Soloveichik about going for the shiva call, apparently it was not rav soloveichiks initiative.
For some reason disagreeing with the Lubavitcher take on this issue is creating terrible animosity.
What's the deal with that? Are you guys not very sure of yourselves and need to gang up on anybody who does not think there was a close relationship here?
Just saw Rabbi Ciments video.
ReplyDeleteThe stories do not sound very credible, but maybe they are true, i do not know.at most it establishes that they knew each other back in berlin.
Unfortunately(or not...), unlike lubavitchers who are always sure of themselves, whether what they are seeing is true or not, i cannot take a vehement stand when im not sure of the details
Shlomo
ReplyDeleteyou have a idea who Rabbi Ciment is?
Did he ever say a other lie that he lost his Chezkas Kashrus?
Did you see him or had witnesses tell you that he was oiver on a Issur deoirasoi Issur derabonon or a Minhag Kal.
You have a idea how straight forward Rabbi Ciment is?
Or all the above is irrelevant, since Shlomo the nice guy decided that every chabadnik, is probably(or definitley) lying, plus, all chabadniks are animosity people, since that are not ready to accept this tipshes of new hater on the block
And I don't know Rabbi Ciment, (do you?)
ReplyDeleteI know that these stories sound far-fetched and if they are true do not sound very good for all parties involved.
" Anonymous Beacon said...
ReplyDeleteLubavicher Pr
"It is true that he said that Rav Soloveitchik expressed a desire a few months to see the Lubavitcher Rebbe. However, just talked about seeing him in general, stam, and didn't specify a time. He may have wanted a more private meeting"
He may have wanted....
Why are you saying this?
Maybe he wanted to see a farbrenbgen with Chasidim, he loved chasidim,
You ever saw his nostalgic talk of the shalash seudas of the Modozitzer shtibel in Warsaw..He loved a chasidic matzav, he loved the view of just seeing gerer chasidim traveling to Gur..
Get off you crazy hate wagon"
Do you think the Rav would be happy today to see Lubavitch invading YU based on the visuals of his attendance of that farbrengen? Don't you concede that the Rav, if he would have seen Lubavitch after gimmel tammuz, would have changed his tune and become much more negative to it?
Could this program have happened in the past? Not likely, at least in such a big way, e.g. in YU's largest venue, Lamport auditorium, where just weeks before the chag hasmicha was held.
ReplyDeleteAlthough not stated openly, it is clear that a major shift has occured at YU of late. You might call it the Chasidic spring of YU. A new generation came into power at YU and RIETS, changed the old policy, and rolled out the red carpet and opened doors wide for Chasidim and Chasidus. The most high profile symbol of this major shift is the new mashpia, Rabbi Moshe Weinberger. The YU Chabad club, perceiving the major change that had taken place, then felt empowered to take such an audacious step, to attempt such a major propaganda campaign, to stage such an event, to try to convince the MO-YU crowd that the Rav was basically a Lubavitcher underneath his Brisker exterior. And they got major cooperation from the administration, who allowed them to use the prestigious venue of Lamport auditorium for it.
But was the event such a great success? I don't think so. It fell short. How many real MO actually were there? It may turn out to be the high water mark for Lubavitch at YU.
Rabbi Weinberger's first year at YU is winding down. Will YU continue to turn in a more Chasidic direction or will it step back and have a change of heart?
Rabbi Penner, the new dean of RIETS, in an appearance on JM in the AM before the chag hasmicha, under questioning by Nachum Segal, attempted to downplay the major change in YU with the Chasidic turn. He claimed that YU wasn't becoming Chasidish, it was just adding on more, more offerings. But no matter how he tries to spin it, a major change has taken place.
I think there are signs that the Chasidic turn at YU has slowed down. Rabbi Weinberger's shanah rishona, his honeymoon, is over or coming to an end. His novelty is wearing off and may wear thin soon. He will have to show that he is not just taking old, tired, questionable Chasidic teachings and dressing them up nicely in ways that will make them attractive to YU'niks, but basically he is selling the same stuff they are selling in Brooklyn.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Weinberger has been propagating contempt and hatred toward classical, non Chasidic Judaism, especially in his 'introduction to toras Habaal shem tov' classes, which are based on the teachings of R. Mottel Zilber, Stutchiner Rebbe, and son in law of R. Moshe Wolfson of Torah Vodaas. Can't people see through R. Weinberger's sham? He tries to appear as a neutral person, but then he uses language, like at the Rebbe and the Rav program, such as 'The Baal Shem Tov hakodosh" and the Vilna Gaon. In the same address where he talks about a reconciliation of talmidei HaGRA and talmidei HaBESHT, invoking Rav Kook, it is clearly shown that he is a Chasidic partisan underneath the show of neutrality. When he makes statements in that course, from R. Mottel, such as that without the BESHT there would be no Yid putting on tefillin today, if a modern Yiddel has a hirhur tshuvah it is all from the BESHT, and so on, he is spitting in the face of the Rav, spitting in the face of Richard Joel, who hugged him and rolled out the red carpet for him, and showing his contempt for YU and all non Chasidim.
I don't understand why some of the MO and YU crowd are so in love with him, like those who invited him to speak in the MO stronghold in the Bergen County area the other night. I think they just are not aware of the contempt he has for them and their non Chasidic Yiddishkeit. The same for people like R. Dovid Miller, R. Ari Waxman, and so on, the people from the YU camp that have empowered him, along with people like R. Penner, R. Kenny Brander, and R. Hershel Reichman.
But as time goes by, the truth will become more evident, people will learn what R. Weinberger really stands for. That to be a completed Jew one must be a Chasid. And the YU'niks and the MO will have to decide if they want to end or cool their flirtation with Weinberger and neo-Chasidism, or change to become a new MO-Chasidic hybrid creation.
The title of the event was "Living the Legacy of the Rebbe and the Rav". They talked about the past. But what about the future? The title means, implies, living a legacy now. So what will come out of it, the program? Where are the hachlotos tayves from it?
ReplyDeleteWhen will they announce the new Rav and Rebbe endowed chair for Tanya and Chasidus at YU??
There is a good review of the event here - https://www.facebook.com/dayannewman/posts/10154038467890361
ReplyDeleteThe author rightfully states that a categorical analysis of their whole relationship was not heard, but rather hagiography and "fluff".
Special kudos to Rabbi Dr. Jacob J. Schacter for at least pouring some cold water on the crowd, and introducing some reality into the Lubavitch-MO lovefest. As he said, the Rav's family was very upset that he went to the farbrengen. Not displeased. Not upset. But very upset.
Not everyone drank,
ReplyDeleteRefreshing to see that the honest reviewer appears to be a Lubavitcher himself!!
At least some people get it - not everyone drank the kool-aid said.
ReplyDeleteI am so happy for the haters including you and your partner in hate Shlomo, that they found something between the lines, something to live for.
There is no secret that the Ravs father Reb Moshe and his mother Pesye were very unhappy that he was influenced by his chabadnik melamed. He said and his sister Mizelman writes in her book,if I remeber correctly even the Ziede was informed about it. This phenomenon to get the prize kid of the most prestigious misnagdic family to be a such a admirer of the Alte Rebbe,was not a happening to ignore.
There is no question in my mind that his clinging to Chasidus helped the Rav to keep him in the fold.
Let all his family bicker from Atara to Chaim, and who cares, the facts are here to stay.
There father the scion of Brisk,was a chasid of the Alte Rebbe,he gave lectures in Tanya and Likutie torah, quoted all the seforim of the Alte Rebbe and the Mitteler Rebbe in many of his shiurim. On top of that he showed his admiration for the Rebbe too, in many shapes and forms.Its very possible that he had some critic on the Rebbe as he differed with his Ziede too...and constantly reevaluated his Hashkofa on multiple matters. Every talmid of his has a different view on many hashkafic matters.
I remember seeing years ago a Interview of the Rav with the editor of the Maariv, in the midst of the discussion of the future of American Jewrey, the Rav said the way to approach Yahadus America is with chutzpa Dekedusha like the lubavichers are doing, they have no qualms to be in the face, stopping a Jew on 5th ave to put him on tefilin.
I know Atara and Chaim hate this, but there father who had a extra zechia that he should learn chasidus looked at it different.
Do you think the Rav would be happy today to see Lubavitch invading YU
ReplyDeleteYU did not belong to the Rav,
He is not the Rebbe Zhichronoi Livracha of the place...
"There is no secret that the Ravs father Reb Moshe and his mother Pesye were very unhappy that he was influenced by his chabadnik melamed......This phenomenon to get the prize kid of the most prestigious misnagdic family to be a such a admirer of the Alte Rebbe,was not a happening to ignore."
ReplyDeleteThe Rav's father stipulated with his son's melamed that he not teach him Hasidism. Despite that, surreptitiously, he went behind the father's back and taught Lubavitcher teachings to the young ilui, thereby compromising his upbringing, taking him away (to a degree) from his family mesorah, and ruining him for life.
This shows how Lubavitchers cannot and should not be trusted. Their mission is to convert Jews to Lubavitch. Lubavitchers should not be hired as melamdim, and even in other things, must be carefully monitored to prevent them from pursuing their perfidious agenda, and taking people away from their mesorah.
"There is no question in my mind that his clinging to Chasidus helped the Rav to keep him in the fold."
What is your proof for such a statement? On the contrary, perhaps it started mixing him up, and once he was taught things from outside his mesorah, he continued it later by going to University, etc.
"quoted all the seforim of the Alte Rebbe and the Mitteler Rebbe in many of his shiurim."
The Rav quoted all the seforim of the first two Lubavitch Rebbes in his public shiurim? Every single one of them? Seems highly questionable. Some, yes. But every single one? You are sure of that? Mareh mekomos?
Another interesting aspect of the whole Rabbi Moshe Weinberger, YU getting into Chasidus thing, is how Rav Moshe Wolfson and Torah Vodaas (YTV), traditionalarch enemies of YU, are now invited and welcomed there by the YU administration.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Weinberger, the new YU mashpia, is closely connected to Rav Wolfson, YTV mashgiach, through his son in law R. Mottel Zilber (aka R. Mordechai Silver). Weinberger's 'intro to toras habaal shem tov course, available on YUtorah website is largely based on Silver's work so far. Also connected to Silver is leading propagator of Hasidism to YU and MO, R. Zev reichman, who put out a book based on Silver/Zilber's teachings (http://www.judaicapress.com/Path-to-the-Tree-of-Life.html). R. Zev's father, R. Hershel Reichman, of Belzer Hasidic background, like Weinberger, has for years been pushing Chasidus at YU and was instrumental in bringing Weinberger there, along with others such as R. Dovid Miller, Weinberger's predecessor at YU, who wanted to return to Israel. R. Hershel (Heshy) Reichman has close ties to Rav Wolfson and his Emunas Yisroel congregation in Boro Park, from living there for years. He arranges for YU students to go there for Shabbos a number of times a year. He also arranged for Rav Wolfson to speak at YU (!) a few years ago (http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/727791/Rabbi_Moshe_Wolfson/Mussar_Shmooze-_Elul)
Rav Wolfson, unlike many other Chasidic leaders, is close to Lubavitch, and regularly interacts with them and participates in their events, such as speaking at Lag Baomer parade, and visiting Lub. Yeshiva in Florida when he goes there in winter. He used to go the Rebbe for dollars. Weinberger follows in his footsteps by lighting Lubavitcher menorah on Chanukah in the five towns, going to the Ohel, addressing the Rav and the Rebbe YU event...
While in the past other people from YTV moved to YU, it then was usually when they decided to follow a different derech, as in cases of Rabbi Dr. Nachum (Norman) Lamm, refuah shleima to him, and Rabbi Dr. Jacob J. Schacter. Now, YU invites YTV people in to bring the YTV teachings into YU. What a great change, a sea change!
Rabbi Wolfson was the subject of a featured profile in the Israeli Mishpacha magazine a few months back. His influence has widened over the years. In addition to YTV, YU, Emunas Yisroel, close talmidim of his serve as mashgichim in Lander College (R. Finkelman), A Yeshiva in the 5T (R. Yehudah Horowitz), and beyond. Artscroll published a book based on his teachings. Rav Wolfson has become well known.
ReplyDelete"The Rav's father stipulated with his son's melamed that he not teach him Hasidism. Despite that, surreptitiously, he went behind the father's back and taught Lubavitcher teachings to the young ilui, thereby compromising his upbringing, taking him away (to a degree) from his family mesorah, and ruining him for life."
ReplyDeletelets find him and beat him up like Reb Mendel Vechter, you think he is still alive?
"The Rav quoted all the seforim of the first two Lubavitch Rebbes in his public shiurim? Every single one of them? Seems highly questionable. Some, yes. But every single one? You are sure of that? Mareh mekomos?"
ReplyDeleteChas Veshulem, I will never give you the sources, you will chas veshulem get influenced, and you will go to university...and you will end at a Lag beomer parade racmono litzlan
"av Wolfson, unlike many other Chasidic leaders, is close to Lubavitch, and regularly interacts with them and participates in their events, such as speaking at Lag Baomer parade, and visiting Lub. Yeshiva in Florida when he goes there in winter. He used to go the Rebbe for dollars. Weinberger follows in his footsteps by lighting Lubavitcher menorah on Chanukah in the five towns, going to the Ohel, addressing the Rav and the Rebbe YU event..."
ReplyDeletecan we beat up at least Reb Moshe Wolfson?
he is ruining a whole doir Rachmono Litlan
Its not a laughing matter, till this evening I never that such a snake is poisoning our youth...
"Rav Wolfson, unlike many other Chasidic leaders, "
ReplyDeleteI think we have to add on some other chasidic mashpiem that should be stopped immediately
Reb Milech Biederman.
Reb Chaim Lieb Katz
Makeve Rbbee
Reb Itche Mier Morgenstern
they have to be stopped now!!!!
Oi Vey Es Brent!!!
"What is your proof for such a statement? On the contrary, perhaps it started mixing him up, and once he was taught things from outside his mesorah, he continued it later by going to University, etc. "
ReplyDeleteWhy did his brothers and sisters go to university.. is it also the Melamud fault?
I think it is, lets find his grave at least and spray painted
"must be carefully monitored to prevent them from pursuing their perfidious agenda, and taking people away from their mesorah."
ReplyDeleteDoes brisk have a Mesrah?
How old is it?
how many generations?
"I am so happy for the haters including you and your partner in hate Shlomo, that they found something between the lines, something to live for."
ReplyDeleteWhy do you call someone who challenges your view of the relationship between The Rebbe and the Rav a "hater"?.You sound obsessed with that word.
"Let all his family bicker from Atara to Chaim, and who cares, the facts are here to stay."
What are you saying, that the son and daughter don't know what they are talking about?
Do you think that is a reasonable position?
I don't.
"There is no question in my mind that his clinging to Chasidus helped the Rav to keep him in the fold."
Again, you are allowed to take any position you want,BUT, understand that is YOUR opinion.
I was trying to discuss the relationship between the two, not discuss whether a person i don't know at all, and neither to the rest of the readers,namely you , thinks Chasides saved The Rav.That's a big statement and i won't discuss it's merits or lack thereof with an anonymous guy.
C"mon now....
"Does brisk have a Mesrah?"
ReplyDeleteCurious.Why not.
Beis Halevy was born in 1820 and his father was a grandson of R'Chaim Volzhiner.
Is that enough of a mesorah?
Btw, what is your mesorah?
Did Reb Chaim and his family afterwards do anything what his father or grandfather did?
ReplyDeleteWas his derech halimud not new? did he have a mesorah for that?
did reb chaim valozhiner or the bais halevi not wear tzitzis on shabos ?
obviously you have no clue about brisk of today..
Being born from a particular family does not make a mesorah
What a joke. Chasidim change mesorah and then claim that Brisk did same thing?
ReplyDeleteMy take on the conference can be seen here.
ReplyDeletehttp://pitputim.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/my-thoughts-on-the-rav-and-the-rebbe-event/
I'd add that the Rav saw some of the aspects of his Uncle's approach as philosophical rather than Halachic. That is clear.
Isaac,
ReplyDeleteWelcome back!
I was scared that the awful sidekick scared you away.
As you may have seen an enlightened poster way up in the comments quoted you.
Yours truly bemoaned the fact that persons such as yourself and Scneour, who actually KNOW quite a bit on this subject were no longer able to post here.
Read your current post on this and surprise, surprise(!) agree with the gist.
Shlomo, thanks for the welcome. Baruch Hashem, two of my daughters were married in the last 5 weeks, and dare I say it, four of my kids have married Lubavitchers! That being said, it doesn't worry me in the slightest. I have trouble understanding those with the advertising style/in your face meshichisem versus those who have various hergeshim bipnimiyusom. I don't refer to the psychologically in need, who wait for Kos Shel Brocho Vechulu. I'm pluralist.
ReplyDeleteB'Kitzur, I've been caught up with that, and I still haven't recovered from psychological grief since the Petria of Ovi Mori over a year ago. A Rav mentioned to me that I was quoted so I looked it over. I like Hirshel's blog in general and anonymous vilde commentators don't bother me unless they break the law or Halocho in their comments.
Thanks to Pitputim for publishing the Rebbe's remarks about "the Rov"'s personality. I must admit that after reading all that there is available about "the Rov", with its seemingly contradictory evidence, the Rebbe's analysis hits the nail on the head, and explains everything! Finally everything falls into place.
ReplyDeleteAsach Yiddish nachas from your children.
ReplyDeletePitputim
ReplyDeleteI see you refer to a letter in yor blog,which Letter are you refering too?
the letter of the Rebbe to rav Zevin?
Isaac,
ReplyDeleteMazal tov!
Lots of nachas