In Satmar, when confronted with the question of how it was that the Belzer Ruv was of a different opinion than the Satmar Rov when it came to geopolitical (?) issues regarding Zionism and the SOI, they like to respond that the Belzer Ruv was like, for example, Reb Chezkele Mertz. A Tzaddik, but no leadership qualities. Had no idea of the REAL goings on in the world. Which is why he was easy to manipulate when it came to issues like Zionism and the SOI. Not Like the Satmar Rov who understood everything about the real world and how to deal with the issues. With others they don't bother to make that excuse, they just dismiss him outright. Reb Shulem Fogel, trusted gabbai to the Ruv, says here - in the new issue of אור הצפון - that the Ruv was discussing vos iz neias with the brother every evening after maariv. It was probably 4 in the morning...drelnaks like Shulem definitely saw these discussions as "the tzadik is maneuvering the universe." But at the same token he needed to be updated on the matzav.... Who updated him for the last 7 years after his brother the Bilgorajer Ruv passed away? Do we know?
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteShulem Fogel can use a Reb,
He was a Magid Shiur in the Belzer Kloiz Narol galicia, and then he was a Magid shiur in Antwerp, when he was called upon to be a Mashbak
Satmar also shows a degree of respect to R' Aron Kotler because the Ruv was maspid him at the levaya & cried through the whole hespid.
ReplyDeleteSatmar, or at least the "shvartz" Satmar, did not show any respect to R' Moishe Feinstein, even after the Ruv demanded they be mechabed him. But that was nothing to do with Zionism. The tzedreite were angry about the teshuva in Igros Moishe re artificial insemination. They said they don't mind if R' Moishe has a different opinion in halacha but made unreasonable demands that the teshuva not be published. Some of these Satmar "tzadikim" went so veit as to call R' Moishe's home at all crazy hours to scream nivul peh at him. Quite a paradox. R' Dovid Feinstein is mayid on seeing the tatteh's agmus nefesh from the crank calls. He said one particularly nasty phone call made the tatteh turn white.
Talking about reb moshe and the satmar hooligans,
ReplyDeletemany moons ago, when Tomer Devora was about to get the public school on 14th ave, Satmar ripped it out from them.
They called Satmar to din torah to Reb moshe,
Reb moshe was terrorized by them till he dropped the din torah...
The Satmar mafia did do a couple of useful things.
ReplyDeleteThe first item they actually were working hand in hand with Litvishe who were taking direction from R' Moshe. They participated in the covert effort to tear down the fake Brooklyn eruv. This was the original machlokes, not the more recent one that Yisroel Belsky was rubo verosho involved in. They were driving a Con Ed utility truck & wearing official issue Con Ed uniforms & hard hats. They were successful that the issue did not rear it's head again until many years later.
The second item was a few years ago. Rabbi Yudel Shain in Lakewood (brother of the Crown Hts mohel) posted a video on his website showing mohel & wannabe "maggid" Paysach Krohn using a Gomco clamp during a bris on a baby from a non heimish family who did not know that the gedolei haposkim possel both the bris & the mohel if that instrument is used. The instrument, besides the problem mitzad Bris, is also a barbaric one that causes excruciating pain to any infant. There are some very selfish & cruel mohelim in non heimish circles who use Gomco because it makes the job much easier. It is a pelleh that it is not illegal in secular law. Satmar got wind of the video and demanded an explanation from Krohn. It's likely that after that intimidating encounter Krohn will not be using a Gomco again.
What exactly was fake about the Brooklyn eruv? That they paskened like the Divrei Malkiel in Cheilek Daled (plus the Maharsham and many others) and not like Reb Moshe's self-admitted major chiddushim? What is useful about terrorising people who follow their rabbonim?
ReplyDeleteR' Moshe agav holds you can make an eruv in Manhattan Beach & Sea Gate.
ReplyDeleteI am not bakant with the Divrei Malkiel & Maharsham but what do they do with so many millions of people living in Brooklyn? The official population count is nowhere near the real figure and this by itself is a problem.
The only heintigger in favor of the eruv who are big enough to be cholek on R' Moshe are R' Menashe Klein & R' Fishel Hershkowitz. And a rosh kollel who is a velt's talmid chochom tells me he is convinced that R' Fishel was misled with false information.
I heard from a posek who was frequently by R' Moishe's apt about the Satmar Rov's hishtadlus to make amends. The Rov was ashamed that the hooligans caused so much anguish to an adam gadol so he sent a delegation to beg mechila on behalf of the chassidus. He instructed the delegation to just ask mechila and not bring up anything about the published teshuva, warning them not to argue with R' Moishe in lomdus about insemination. They did not listen to the rov and when they tried to argue, R' Moishe shlogged them up so they left red faced & too embarrassed to get around to ask mechila. A second delegation was sent who had to give their word to the Rov that they would follow his instructions.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone attend that eruv circus at the old Kaminetz on 56th St?
ReplyDeleteSigns went up all over BP that Belsky was going to give a shiur on the controversy. The signs of course attracted every single baal machlokes, troublemaker & meshigenna for miles around. Things got very heated and some of the riff raff was kicked out of the building.
Ever since then, every OU halacha event with Belsky has all the people & questions pre-screened by the OU and there have been bouncers on hand.
farshteit zich krohn was not very happy to be exposed on a blog especially considering that it led to satmar to come looking for him. later there was a video interview where the yeshivaworld reporter bumped into krohn at the entrance of the citifield bathrooms during the internet assifa. krohn was asked what his opinion of heimishe blogs is. he launched into an angry tirade that they should be shut down and demanded the baalei blogs be "put in cherem"
ReplyDeleteIt his well known that rav moshe זצ״ל sent rav efriam greenblatt זצל to ask various questions of the satmar rebbi...
ReplyDeleteCopies of all the letters referenced below are floating around online.
ReplyDeleteThe "Ask OU" events have not included Rabbi Belsky since January.
There was a lot of turmoil inside the OU where they almost were forced to get rid of him even prior to that after Belsky wrote a letter attacking the Lakewood roshei yeshiva. The OU didn't care about that letter per se but were facing a tremendous public backlash from the modern orthodox oylam due to a related issue.
The makkah bepatish was earlier this year when Belsky inserted himself into the Weinberger machlokes and wrote a letter attacking the rabbonim & roshei of the 5 Towns & Far Rockaway. The rabbonim responded very forcefully with their own letter and cancelled the Torah Vodaas fundraising weekend which stated that Belsky is not welcome in any of their mosdos. Torah Vodaas is estimated to have lost $200,000 from the cancelled weekend. In this episode as well, the modern orthodox had their own related reason to be furious at Belsky and the drumbeat of calls to run him out of the OU became too great for the OU to continue swweping him under the carpet.
In the conversation in your next post with the Satmarer Rov, it seems the Belzer Ruv spoke very normal. He answered 'tzu der zach' and knew the facts. I am not sure why Foigel took over the argument. If he would have kept his mouth shut, we would have had more pearls of wisdom from the BR. Now we have to rely on the 'masoirah' from the Belz-Bilgoray Rebbe without any solid facts.
ReplyDeleteDomayich Chayi said...
ReplyDelete"The Satmar mafia did do a couple of useful things.
The first item they actually were working hand in hand with Litvishe who were taking direction from R' Moshe. They participated in the covert effort to tear down the fake Brooklyn eruv. This was the original machlokes, not the more recent one that Yisroel Belsky was rubo verosho involved in. They were driving a Con Ed utility truck & wearing official issue Con Ed uniforms & hard hats. They were successful that the issue did not rear it's head again until many years later."
It seems you live in Denver where pot is legal
Eruvin
ReplyDelete"And a rosh kollel who is a velt's talmid chochom tells me he is convinced that R' Fishel was misled with false information."
Reb Fishele is working on the Eruv in Brooklyn for close to 5 decades,and your rosh hakolel thinks he is misled,
How old is your rosh Hakolel?
who decided that he is the Velts Talmid chochem? you and him?
Eruvin
ReplyDelete"The only heintigger in favor of the eruv who are big enough to be cholek on R' Moshe are R' Menashe Klein & R' Fishel Hershkowitz. And a rosh kollel who is a velt's talmid chochom tells me he is convinced that R' Fishel was misled with false information."
Most rabonim after the war, I mean Rabonim that had Shimush by Galicyaner,Polish and Hungarian rabonim, not roshai yeshivas or rabonim that originate out of the yeshiva world were against Reb Moshes pesak in Eiruvin.
The Satmar ruv definitely did not hold that Bedford avenue in Brooklyn was a reshus harabim deoiraisa, his wife wore jewellery. Every year there was a eruv made for the projects by shabas sukas.
Weissman,
ReplyDeleteI heard this from a gvir who claims he paid for the undercover Con Ed operation.
In addition, there are a lot of "issues" with the Margulies mishpocho, but they are officially Satmarers and yungerleit told me when they were bochurim in Torah Temimah about a decade ago, Mendel Margulies sent them to tear down the eruv.
Yes, the Satmar Ruv was allowing on Bedford on a limited basis but was otherwise not in favor of a blanket heter on Brooklyn eruvin.
I'm glad you're moideh to that. R. Yisroel Chaim Menashe Friedman would have you believe that the Bedford eruv was built for goyim.
DeleteAs to a blanket hetter for Brooklyn eruvin - the fact is that he donated money to the Udvari rov to be put towards his eruv project.
Margulies was against the eruv? Maybe because no one asked haskomo from the rosh HAyeshiva Leopold-Lipa.
ReplyDelete"Reb Fishele is working on the Eruv in Brooklyn for close to 5 decades,and your rosh hakolel thinks he is misled?"
Weissman sounds like the rosh kollel Rav Weissman of Avrechei Brisk in Flatbush.
The rosh kollel is not so old but he is way beyond his age. My description of him is based on at about age 21 I think he already finished - b'iyun - Tanach, Bavli & Yerushalmi. In his 30s he was finishing up every single bit of kesovim from the Geonim & Rishonim and already had a big hekef in Achronim. He was already kimat like what was said about Rav Ruderman that there was nothing in print that he was not bakant with.
ReplyDeleteI don't see why you think it is impossible that people could have given wrong information to R' Fishel. He probably does not get up much from learning so he has to rely on hearsay instead of doing physical investigations himself.
Can J tell us more about Satmar rov giving money to Udvari?
ReplyDeleteWhatever the story is, Satmar and Bais Medrash Govoha are against basically any kind of eruv because they don't want maydelach & veiber shpatziring in the gass in their Shabbos finery.
When one of the first private eruvin in a Lakewood neighborhood went up there was a yeshivishe nudnik there who learned the sugyos to figure out if there was a way short of vandalism that he could sabotage the eruv by refusing to be mishtatef
Damayich Chayi
ReplyDelete"Yes, the Satmar Ruv was allowing on Bedford on a limited basis but was otherwise not in favor of a blanket heter on Brooklyn eruvin."
if he was against it,(which I am not sure since his closest confidant Yossel Ashkenazi claimed he was for it) it was not for halachic reasons, probably political,
Btw, are you a mohel?
J
ReplyDelete"I'm glad you're moideh to that. R. Yisroel Chaim Menashe Friedman "
on every tough question he used Reb Fishele for his Rav, his oldest son he send for shimesh by Reb Fishele,
So where did he get a independent mind on Eiruvin?
if the Lefkowitz's decided on RYCM Friedman, to make him the Ravad, this does not add noting to the Halacha
There is a way that the Satmar Ruv could be against eruv without political considerations & still allow Bedford. There could have been a blocking of streets in Willy.
ReplyDeleteThis was done at least once in the Marine Park neighborhood where they got permission from the government to block off streets. There is a shita if the streets are blocked off at least one day a year it is not a regular reshus harabim.
Domayich Chayi was to take a shot at Paysach Krohn who agav also got in trouble with Artscroll and they had to edit one of his stories in a later edition that he snuck past their censor. Krohn is mishpocho with several convicted menuvolim & he planted a story in The Maggid Reeks that one of the menuvolim was close with Rav Pam ztl when Rav Pam actually assered that shvantz from stepping foot in Torah Vodaas.
Enquiring minds - I'd like to see them put their so-called tznius issues down on paper. Which other mitzvos derabonon do they have hashkafic objections to? Perhaps they should cancel Purim for all the shikrus and pritzus it causes? They don't seem to have a problem with women going out during the week, nor with an eruv in KJ. You will not find this idea in any of the the classic poskim - aderaba, see what the Rosh writes in a teshuva to someone who came up with his own reasons not to be mesakein an eruv (p.34):
ReplyDeletehttp://israel613.com/books/_AL_MITZVAT_ERUV-H.pdf
See also the Udvari Rov's letter making a similar point on page 3.
To be anti-eruv for tznius reasons is to be an einoh modeh be'eruv.
Eruvin - if it's being fed the wrong information we're talking about, some of the things stated as fact in R. Moshe's teshuvos on eruvin are, at the very least, hard to understand in light of the real metzius (e.g. the existence of real mechitzos bidei odom of omed merubah around Brooklyn).
The story about R. Fishel being misinformed was started by the Williamsburg eruv parsha - as far as I'm aware nobody claimed it in Boro Park. Besides for which, the whole thing is a joke if it's reshus harabbim we're talking about. R. Fishel doesn't hold of R. Moshe's huge and unprecedented chiddushim in how to define a reshus harabbim (nor did any of the Polish/Galitzianer/Hungarian poskim). So for several reasons (no shishim ribo on one street, no mechuvonim, the existence of mechitzos), the metzius of which are all easy to verify, he believes that there is no reason to depart from the words of Rav Steiff and Rav Henkin, both of whom wrote that eruvin should be made in Brooklyn.
Perhaps your rosh kollel can tell us what R. Fishel was misinformed about. Does he say the same about R. Chatzkel Roth? They tried this trick in London too - it was claimed that the Tzitz Eliezer didn't realise London was a big city when he wrote a teshuva (19:17) supporting the eruv there.
And apologies, I meant to write Ratzfert, not his brother. You can see the his account, including the Satmar Rov's support, on p.178 at the link posted above.
RYCM is not being independent-minded in this case either. In Satmar, either you go with the mob or you get run over.
BMG does not disqualify any legitimate eruv. They just do everything to try to prevent them from going up. That is a big difference.
ReplyDeleteOn Shabbos the females are dressed much more attractively. They have nothing else to do so they would dray zich in the streets unless they are shackled by no eruv. And the males who are busier during the week learning or in arbet are also draying zich. Do you know what happens in a lab when mixing certain chemicals together? Some mixtures produce smoke or explode, yes?
There are yeshivos that cancelled Purim because there were girls coming who could not be controlled.
This is really getting good.
ReplyDelete15 years later, we are fighting the eiruv fight again, with the exact same talking points.
Can we produce the same bumper stickers again? כולנו בעד העירוב. גדולי הדור אתנו
Those talking points are the color green.
ReplyDeleteA major gvir in Flatbush went to rabbonim & roshei yeshiva with an offer they "couldn't refuse". Make me an eruv for $18,000 so that my kids don't move to the 5 Towns.
When they said no he upped the ante to $50,000.
When they said no he upped it to $100,000 and got Bentzion Wosner in Monsey to give his chasima.
The rabbonim then hopped on a plane to Israel & got not just Rav Elyashev to sign against Bentzion but even Bentzion's own father.
Can someone tell me what the Hungarian Rebbes do with the shishim ribo problem? Unless you use the tayna of Menashe Hakutten, how does anyone get around that?
Lakewooder
ReplyDelete"On Shabbos the females are dressed much more attractively. They have nothing else to do so they would dray zich in the streets unless they are shackled by no eruv. And the males who are busier during the week learning or in arbet are also draying zich. Do you know what happens in a lab when mixing certain chemicals together? Some mixtures produce smoke or explode, yes?"
How come shloma hamelech did not think of all the above,
Were women not dressed in better garb on shabos? Were the men not of from work on Shabos?
Since when can we make geziros on our own?
follow the am oretz
ReplyDelete"Can someone tell me what the Hungarian Rebbes do with the shishim ribo problem? Unless you use the tayna of Menashe Hakutten, how does anyone get around that?"
was the Marsham a Ungarischer?
Was Rashi a Ungarischer?
I love how all the modern orthodox are falling over each other to be noheg like the chassidishe poskim all of a sudden when an eruv makes life easy for them!
ReplyDeleteYU - Who is MO here? Last I checked R. Hershel Schachter is more or less pro-eruv too, and the Tzitz Eliezer was no Satmarer, so no Hungarians needed.
ReplyDeleteThe Jackson NJ "Mayor" may want to take up the tznius inyanim with alter Kelmer R' Nosson Wachtfogel ztl who told yeshivaleit that even remaining by someone's Shabbos tish after bentching is problematic altz being around the baalhabusta too much.
ReplyDeleteAnd come on, most of the readers here are heimishe who have chassidishe strictures that goes way beyond anything by the Litvishe.
J,
ReplyDeleteBefore I look at your mareh mekomos,
Flatbush Ave enters Brooklyn from the Manhattan side and exits Brooklyn on the Queens side (Rockaways).
R' Menashe Klein recognized this problem which is why he came up with his cute loophoole of red lights having the same din as military checkpoint because you must stop for a red light just like you must stop for a sentry. You will ask there is lav davka 600,000 on Flatbush Ave every day, but most Rishonim learn that a very big number constantly flowing is the same din as 600,000.
Now what about the Rishonim that if you have millions of people living in the confines of a city, the city is disqualified from eruv? The only way out of that is phony using population figures that are not real because they don't include all the illegal alien Latinos and citizen renters in illegally subdivided homes.
Who said anything against chumros in tznius? Since when are the Litvishe outdoing the eruv-supporters in tznius? They should be mesaken what needs tikkun but why take their issues out on a mitzvah derabonon?
ReplyDeleteFollow the money - do me a favour and learn the sugya first. The traffic lights thing actually originally came from the Divrei Yatziv, but for some reason the Litvishe never make fun of him. And more importantly, it's entirely unnecessary to come onto it, for the reasons I mentioned above.
ReplyDeleteWhich rishonim are you referring to - and are you going in R. Moshe, the Mishkenos Yaakov or the Beis Efraim?
YU Torah Umada
ReplyDelete"I love how all the modern orthodox are falling over each other to be noheg like the chassidishe poskim all of a sudden when an eruv makes life easy for them!"
Oneg Shabos was not invented by the modern orthodox, or by chasidic rebbes, The karaites believed that shabos is a day of angst and gloom.
The Perisha (No MO No Chasid) writes shabos is not a day of being bound in your house and not to enjoy
Musser Schmusser
ReplyDelete"The Jackson NJ "Mayor" may want to take up the tznius inyanim with alter Kelmer R' Nosson Wachtfogel ztl who told yeshivaleit that even remaining by someone's Shabbos tish after bentching is problematic altz being around the baalhabusta too much."
I don't disagree with the mashgiach, hanging around in a friends house is maybe not ideal. By certain chasidim they did not even eat the shabos meal on 1 table with their own wives. But the mashgiach can not stop a Mitzva derabonen as he can not stop chanukah and Purim.
" but most Rishonim learn that a very big number constantly flowing is the same din as 600,000."
ReplyDeleteAre u sure there are rishonim saying that?
Thanks for adding the Reb to baal Mishne Halochas.
Follow
ReplyDelete"Which is why he came up with his cute loophoole of red lights having the same din as military checkpoint because you must stop for a red light just like you must stop for a sentry"
I think he bases his "CUTE LOOPHOLE" on a CUTE Reb Yosef shaul,CUTE Avnie Nezer and a CUTE Marsham.
Put the Perisha in proper context. Einer fun der Achronim, I think maybe Chayei Adam, says that if you are not properly bakant with hilchos Shabbos you will end up being mechalel Shabbos unless you sit home with your hands on your head.
ReplyDeleteA red light? Did he really say that? Tell me thats a joke please? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
ReplyDelete“Flatbush Ave enters Brooklyn from the Manhattan side and exits Brooklyn on the Queens side (Rockaways).”
ReplyDeleteThis is R’ Belsky’s argument. It’s simply incorrect. Flatbush Avenue is not mefulash u’muchavanim, at all. Besides for which, why would you have a problem then with the Boro Park eruv which does not include Flatbush Avenue?
“R' Menashe Klein recognized this problem which is why he came up with his cute loophoole of red lights having the same din as military checkpoint because you must stop for a red light just like you must stop for a sentry.”
You simply don’t know what you are talking about. Rav Menashe did not believe that Flatbush Ave. was classified as being mefulash. The red light heter was one of many heterim that Rav Menashe made use of. As a matter of fact, it was not his chiddush only the Klusenberger rebbe’s who cited the Avnei Nezer and the Shoel U’Meishiv.
“You will ask there is lav davka 600,000 on Flatbush Ave every day, but most Rishonim learn that a very big number constantly flowing is the same din as 600,000.”
You don’t know what you’re talking about. There is no such Rishon.
“Now what about the Rishonim that if you have millions of people living in the confines of a city, the city is disqualified from eruv? The only way out of that is phony using population figures that are not real because they don't include all the illegal alien Latinos and citizen renters in illegally subdivided homes.”
Please stop shooting from the hip. There are no such Rishonim. The only one who mentions millions is Rav Moshe, who argues that shishim ribo is conditional of a population of three million.
J,
ReplyDeleteStill not on top of the sugya but I will admit that the poskim I speak to are heavily influenced by R' Moshe. I think the reason why the Klausenberger is not knocked is because he is considered to be bigger and R' Menashe Klein is perceived as someone who tried to knock R' Moshe a few times too many. I have heard him compared to one of the Achronim whose seforim are not ungenumen and it is hypothesized the reason is because he knocked the gadol in his dor too much. WHat is the exact lashon in Divrei Yatziv (first time I am hearing this anyway)? Is it exactly the way R' Menashe Klein says it?
Jackson, I meant no bizayon as R' Menashe calls him Hakutten.
Dovid, as far as Belsky, I am on the side of the vast majority gedolim who don't trust much if anything he says. However, Belsky is sometimes factually correct. I don't know who shlogged up his Flatbush Ave piece and if he is takka upgeshlogt. Much of the refutation of Belsky's eruv positions grada come from an eccentric fellow with an orange beard who made it his life's mission to counter Belsky on the eruv. As brilliant as the guy is, I am not sure that he is all there.
Less than 600,000 I have heard in shiurim. It might be an extrapolation from Rishonim, not beferush.
I am not 100% sure about the mekor of 3 million. You may be right that it is R' Moishe's chiddush.
YU Torah Mada
ReplyDelete"Einer fun der Achronim, I think maybe Chayei Adam, says that if you are not properly bakant with hilchos Shabbos you will end up being mechalel Shabbos unless you sit home with your hands on your head."
There is no such Chaye Adam
its part of a derush of a baal darshan
its not only a Persiha, its a Pri Megodim,
its a Rambam in hilchas yom tov,
its a midrash sechel yom tov
Anon
ReplyDelete"A red light? Did he really say that? Tell me thats a joke please? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!"
oiser Leodom sheyemale sechok Piv Beolom Hazeh
Anon
ReplyDelete"A red light? Did he really say that? Tell me thats a joke please? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!"
chuckling from a tosfois, Shoal Umieshiv, Marsham, And Avnie Nezer is Kefira betorah... the joke is on you
Of Jackson's list, only the Avnei Nezer had working electricity in his lifetime.
ReplyDeleteBut still, the traffic light was not invented until 2 years after he was niftar by Salt Lake City Police Detective Lester Wire in 1912.
(The gas lit traffic lights invented in 1868 were used only near the British Parliament building and they had to be manually operated by police officers)
This is right up the modern orthodox alley! You need kulos, so get someone who knows some bekius to quote a plethora of mareh mekomos with a superficial shaychus to the matter at hand!
ReplyDeleteWhen Chazal, Rishonim & Achronim say to get out and enjoy Shabbos, they did not mean the expense of hotzoah. These moderneh clowns deride daas Torah, chassidishe chumros, you name it, and all of a sudden they handpick one psak they like from daas yochid R' Menashe Klein.
But at least this psak is true, unlike the time that Michael Broyde made up a phony psak from the Lubavitcher Rebbe about writing medical exams on Shabbos - Tzig, did you know about that one?
There was also Asher Lopatin poskening Rahm Emanuel can telephone Obama to discuss economic policy on Rosh Hashana because of the following geonus: his rebbe Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik is a "Brisker" and the Brisker shita is pikuach nefesh takes precedence and Obamanomics hot a din fun pikuach nefesh.
Anachronism said...
ReplyDelete"Of Jackson's list, only the Avnei Nezer had working electricity in his lifetime.
But still, the traffic light was not invented until 2 years after he was niftar by Salt Lake City Police Detective Lester Wire in 1912.
(The gas lit traffic lights invented in 1868 were used only near the British Parliament building and they had to be manually operated by police officers)"
you are a Am Oretz min Hatorah and talmid chochem Min Wikepedia,
Learn the teshuvos you will see the analogy.
Follow the Money
ReplyDeleteEvery angle of the eruv osrim was covered in Kovetz Oir Yisroel, a lot of new nuances were discussed. it was yagdil torah veyadir.
It was the 2nd good thing that the eruv produced.
YU - why are you bringing the Modern Orthodox into this discussion? And please specificy where anyone relied on R. Menashe Klein when all other poskim disagreed.
ReplyDeleteSanctimonious one of Jackson, get off your high horse.
ReplyDeleteNone of your Achronim talk about traffic lights. They talk about human sentries or other impediments.
That is exactly the point. Not everyone agrees when they start making Toyras in Ungvar that a traffic light is the same thing. Most poskim think it is a stretch.
Yu Torah Umadeh
ReplyDelete"This is right up the modern orthodox alley! You need kulos, so get someone who knows some bekius to quote a plethora of mareh mekomos with a superficial shaychus to the matter at hand!
When Chazal, Rishonim & Achronim say to get out and enjoy Shabbos, they did not mean the expense of hotzoah"
The achronim that I mentioned are all discussing Hotzoa,
You are a idiot and Am Oretz,
shut up and stop embarrassing charadie Jewry by representing .
What a ferd you are,
to put America's chasidic Poskie hadoir Reb Chaim Leb Katz, Reb Chezkel Roth and Reb Fishele in the MO camp.
you are a tipesh.. you never looked in no source, just spewing ignorance.
Anachronism
ReplyDeleteplease explain the difference, in lomdus its the same.
obviously if I am a Mayor I am arrogant...whats your chidush I dont deny it.
Anachronism
ReplyDelete" Most poskim think it is a stretch"
stop talking so vague, spill it for us,who are the poskim?
Mayors are arrogant? I thought they were only liars & con artists?
ReplyDeletePG
ReplyDeletea humble person would never in the first place elbow himself to get ahead,
the conniving grows on you while on the job
Anachronism:
ReplyDeleteWhy do you shoot from the hip? You simply don’t know bein yemino lsmolo.
No posek besides the Klausenberger, Rav Menashe and Rav Moshe debated this chiddush. So don’t tell me that “most poskim think it’s a stretch.” In any case, most people (who think that they know hilchos eruvin) believe that it was Rav Menashe’s chiddush, so they take the liberty to deride it. The fact that it was the Klausenberger rebbe who introduced this chiddush cast it in a different light.
The heter of the red lights is based on previous poskim. The Shoel U’maishiv (Mahadurah Kama, 1:251) and the Avnei Nezer (1:267:5) declare that if the authorities do not allow access to an area at a certain time, it is not classified as a reshus harabbim since one of the prerequisite of a reshus harabbim is that it always be accessible to the public. These Gedolie Haposkim maintain as such even though there are no physical barriers that inhibit the traffic. Why should the legal requirement to stop at a red light be any different?
YU - Torah Madua:
ReplyDelete“This is right up the modern orthodox alley! You need kulos,”
You make this argument because you are an am haaretz. You believe that eruvin is some kind of trick. Go learn the inyan prior to making such statements.
“so get someone who knows some bekius to quote a plethora of mareh mekomos with a superficial shaychus to the matter at hand!”
Apparently, in your asinine view eruvin is too entailing an issue for the lowly moreh hora’ah to pasken on. Eruvin requires a lamdan, one who can plumb the depths of the sugyos and the Rishonim. Eruvin requires a lamdan who can seek out the sources without having to rely on any precedent, as do the local poskim.
In truth, eruvin is not unlike any other halachic issue. Every rav, large or small, has a right to pasken how he sees fit. Eruvin is comparable to all other issues in halachah where a posek recognizes his limitations and accepts the precedents of yesteryear. If only the lamdanim would realize their place as well.
“When Chazal, Rishonim & Achronim say to get out and enjoy Shabbos, they did not mean the expense of hotzoah. These moderneh clowns deride daas Torah, chassidishe chumros, you name it, and all of a sudden they handpick one psak they like from daas yochid R' Menashe Klein.”
I reiterate, prior to making such grand statements learn through the inyan. As a matter of fact, the Perishah, (O.C. 395:1) declares regarding eruvei chatzeiros: לצורך הנאתו כדי לטייל או להביא צרכי אכילתו, וזה מצוה כמ"ש וקראת לשבת עונג Clearly, according to the Perishah, enjoying Shabbos was at the expense of hotzoah. Rav Menashe is far from a daas yachid.
R. Osher Weiss also came up with an original reason to be meikel on the reshus harabbim shailah but I didn't see yet that the Litvishe turned him into a hate figure:
ReplyDeleteאך מטעם אחר יש לכאורה לדון שלא יהא דין רה"ר בעיירות הגדולות בזמה"ז דהלא בעינן ט"ז אמה ברוחב רה"ר ובזמנינו אין רוב הכבישים ראויים להליכת הרבים ורק מעברי חציה במקומות המסויימים ראויים להולכי הדרכים אבל רוב רובם של הכבישים המרכזיים לעולם אינם ראויים להליכה רגלית אם משום תנועת הרכב בשעה שנוסעים ואם משום צפיפותם בשעת עמידתם וכיון שהכביש אינו ראוי להליכה ולא ניחא תשמישתיה אין כאן ט"ז אמה רחב רה"ר.
ואף אם נוסעי הרכבים מצטרפים לס"ר מ"מ נראה דבמקום שאינו ראוי אלא לנוסעי רכב ועגלות בלבד בודאי אינו רה"ר ואין זה דומה לדגלי מדבר ובעינן שיהא כל מקום בר"ה ראוי לעיקר דרך הליכת הרבים שהיא הליכה רגלית, וכמ"ש הכס"מ לגבי הים דלא ניחא תשמישתיה, ואף שיש לחלק בין הולכי הים באניות שאינו ראוי כלל להליכה רגלית לכביש שעכ"פ אפשר ללכת בו רגלית מ"מ מסתבר דבעינן שיהיה כל הרה"ר ניחא תשמישתיה להולכי רגלים כנ"ל.
Follow the Money is making an important point that acceptance of eruvin is often heavily influenced by the wealthy set with an agenda.
ReplyDeleteThe frum crowd for decades did not rely on the Toronto eruv. Although Rav Price who learned by the Imrei Emess approved it no one went along with it. One day two wealthy brothers decided they wanted the eruv to be kashered by all the other rabbonim. So the brothers went to Rav Elyashev who allegedly agreed with them that Toronto does not have to listen to Rav Moshe Feinstein because the Stashover Rov said 100 years ago that Toronto could have an eruv. When Maayana shel Torah brings down Rav Graubart frequently that is the Stashover.
Although the leading rabbonim now accept the Toronto eruv, I and others still do not carry until we can get independent verification of what was actually said in the room with Rav Elyashev. The Toronto rabbonim receive donations in nice amounts from the brothers and if you know how the brothers conduct themselves in gesheft you would know that there isn't much that can stop them when they have an agenda.
R' Osher Weiss's name is floated in the rumor mill as a leading candidate to replace Belsky at the OU.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the "mayvinim" who comment on Yudel Shain's blog, R' Osher is known for manufacturing heterim a la Belsky and is a perfect fit for the OU because he has a heimishe appearance and he hangs out in modern orthodox circles so he has broad cross appeal.
I say "mayvinim" because they are often correct but not always and while I know it is true that R' Osher does hang in modern circles, I am not familiar with his style of psak.
Klaus:
ReplyDeleteRav Osher, did not invent the wheel. His rebbe, the Kalusenberger rebbe mentioned this chiddush as well, and there were earlier poskim who utilized this chiddush.
Toronto:
ReplyDelete“The frum crowd for decades did not rely on the Toronto eruv. Although Rav Price who learned by the Imrei Emess approved it no one went along with it.”
Because Rav Price relied on many kulos. I would add that since Rav Y Kaminetsky (and Rav Ochs), who was the rav prior to Rav Price, did not want to enlarge the eruv to include the new neighborhoods, people were not comfortable carrying.
“One day two wealthy brothers decided they wanted the eruv to be kashered by all the other rabbonim. So the brothers went to Rav Elyashev who allegedly agreed with them that Toronto does not have to listen to Rav Moshe Feinstein because the Stashover Rov said 100 years ago that Toronto could have an eruv. When Maayana shel Torah brings down Rav Graubart frequently that is the Stashover.”
Rav Elyashiv’s argument was that since Toronto had an eruv (1921) prior to Rav Moshe’s rabbanus in the Americas, they don’t have to follow Rav Moshe’s p’sak. (Following this logic, NY can erect an eruv since there was an eruv in the city (1905) prior to Rav Moshe’s rabbanus.) Rav Elyashiv added that they should make the eruv omed merubeh al haprutz.
“Although the leading rabbonim now accept the Toronto eruv, I and others still do not carry until we can get independent verification of what was actually said in the room with Rav Elyashev. The Toronto rabbonim receive donations in nice amounts from the brothers and if you know how the brothers conduct themselves in gesheft you would know that there isn't much that can stop them when they have an agenda.”
Your stringency is influenced by am haratzus. The fact that Toronto’s eruv is omed merubeh, leaves no room for these chumros.
Maybe if Dovid actually paid attention to what I wrote his tone would be more civil. The brothers have a history of behaving a certain way in gesheft. We would like to know what was actually said in the room with Rav Elyashev without having to take the brothers's word for it. The important rabbonim who eagerly took their word for it either don't know about the brothers's business practices or are blinded by the nice donations they receive.
ReplyDeleteOne reason why we are especially suspicious whether Rav Elyashev could give the alleged psak is because the argument of morei horaah before R' Moshe has been tried & rejected by most poskim for the case of Manhattan.
Toronto:
ReplyDeleteMaybe if Toronto actually paid attention to what I wrote he would become more educated. Since the current Toronto eruv is omed merubeh al haparutz – notwithstanding any shenanigans of the brothers – there is no reason to doubt that Rav Elyashiv would oppose such an eruv. Moreover, there is no reason to argue that Rav Moshe would oppose such an eruv.
The fact that you use my argument regarding Rav Moshe’s rabbanus vis-a-vis the Manhattan eruv proves that you just shoot from the hip. No one made this argument to date. No one rejected this argument to date.
Oh, by the way, are you claiming that Rav Shlomo Miller, who is no fan of city eruvin, but allowed the current eruv, is also somehow complicit in this matter?
It would seem that the one who doesn't know what he's talking about is Dovid.
ReplyDeleteThere are several Manhattan residents, some of whom claim current rabbinic backing, who carry on the island citing poskim that predate R' Moshe.
One of the communities this takes place is the Upper East Side where Rabbi J. David Bleich of the Yorkville Shul has protested that the current rabbis making this argument carry no weight (excuse the pun), and should not be heeded.
Toronto
ReplyDeleteyou are creating a web and a pattern based of the writer Follow the money,
His whole story is bogus, there was no such story of a gevir going to rabonim and upping money, as if he is working some sinister mobster scam case.
They went straight to Rav Vozner from Monsey, who got paid for his work, and the money was given by some gevirim, who some had "already all their kids in 5 town" No different then Rav Belsky is getting paid from Torah Vodaas and from Ou, and all his Problematic gittin...
Jackson is putting forth a bogus denial of a true story that is well known in the outer Flatbush communities of Marine Park & Madison.
ReplyDeleteA modern orthodox gvir whose kids lean yeshivish was the "benefactor" to R' Bentzion Wosner. He has the exclusive on importing famous designer name goods from Italy. He is probably grossing $300 million a year according to educated estimates. He davens by a small time Rebbe where the crowd is modern to yeshiva background lite. He approached several Brooklyn rabbonim with the money. Those same rabbonim later went to Rav Elyashev & Bentzion's father to stop him.
Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteI reiterate, no one argues that since there was an eruv that predates Rav Moshe’s rabbanus in Manhattan, an eruv can be established. You miss the point. Those who cite previous poskim that would agree to an eruv in Manhattan, are in fact arguing on Rav Moshe, notwithstanding his rabbanus.
" no one argues that since there was an eruv that predates Rav Moshe’s rabbanus in Manhattan, an eruv can be established"
ReplyDeleteAre you sure you want to word that sentence that way? Because tackling that sentence first, you happen to be wrong.
Follow the money:
ReplyDeleteBubbe meises.
“A major gvir in Flatbush went to rabbonim & roshei yeshiva with an offer they "couldn't refuse". Make me an eruv for $18,000 so that my kids don't move to the 5 Towns. When they said no he upped the ante to $50,000. When they said no he upped it to $100,000 and got Bentzion Wosner in Monsey to give his chasima.”
Money was never offered until after a Baal Machsher was settled on.
For many years the Muzhai'er rav (and other rabbanim) wanted to establish an acceptable eruv in Flatbush, to stem the tide of people moving out of the neighborhood. A meeting of rabbanim was convened and they called in Rav Wosner to be the Baal HaMachsher. While the gvir as the one who footed the bill it was not his initiative. This falsehood is being propagated by people with an agenda to undermine the veracity of the eruv. They are insinuating that only because of money was a hechsher given. In any case, the Chemdas Shlomo states, in those areas not yet enclosed by an eruv, the baalei battim should initiate an eruv. Consequently, even if your narrative was correct, this gvir did nothing wrong at all.
“The rabbonim then hopped on a plane to Israel & got not just Rav Elyashev to sign against Bentzion but even Bentzion's own father.”
There is a letter from Rav Berish Schapiro, the Naroler rav, in which he recounts discussing with Rav Shmuel Wosner the supposed claim that he had aligned himself with these emissaries (rabbanim) from Brooklyn against his son Rav Benzion Wosner. Rav Wosner senior asserted that chas v’shalom he would never say anything against his son who is a major talmid chachom and that the Naroler rav could publicize this fact. This is contrary to what the anti-eruv askanim reported and thus calls into question the veracity of the responses of any of the other Gedolei Eretz Yisroel to these activists.
In any case, the fact that they went running to his “tatty” illustrates what kind of people we are talking about.
“Can someone tell me what the Hungarian Rebbes do with the shishim ribo problem? Unless you use the tayna of Menashe Hakutten, how does anyone get around that?”
There is no issue of shishim ribo at all. Learn through the inyan prior to making such uneducated statements.
The "askanim" that Dovid refers to are a bunch of roshei yeshiva & rabbonim. They are the whose who of Flatbush and areas further south. Why shouldn't they go to "tatty" if the son is out of line?
ReplyDeleteI heard about the money directly from some of them. I heard about the $18,000 way before anything materialized out of Monsey for $100,000. I have no reason to believe the "askanim" were lying even if I could not personally corroborate the timeline.
I also happen to know the Naroler & never heard any defense of Bentzion from him. So if there is such a letter from him, produce it.
Saying it was not Ronny's initiative is laughable even if he didn't think of it first. Consider him the most aggressive salesman in Brooklyn history. And that is saying a lot.
Tronto, Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDelete“Are you sure you want to word that sentence that way? Because tackling that sentence first, you happen to be wrong.”
You simply don’t get it. The debate, that involved Rav Moshe to allow an eruv in Manhattan began in 1949. Rav Moshe penned his teshuvah in 1952. Those who supported an eruv even after Rav Moshe’s objection do not argue that, since there was an eruv prior to Rav Moshe’s rabbanus in Manhattan we do not have to follow his proscription. On the contrary, these rabbanim simply don’t agree with his ruling.
Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteCorrect, they do not begin to know hilchos eruvin. Their only reason to object to an eruv is because they believe that Rav Moshe would oppose. Therefore, an eruv can never be established. That is ridicules. Lets see their teshuvos on the matter.
Out of line! Rav Wosner was called by the Muzhai'er rav (and other rabbanim, as well) to give the hechsher. Rav Wosner is a expert in establishing eruvin. There isn’t one rav who went to Rav Wosner’s tatty who holds a candle to him regarding eruvin. Don’t forget Eruvin is not a yeshivashe Masechta, and hilchos eruvin is not nogea for the Flatbush community (yes, I know that one of the rabbanim involved even wrote on the inyan, however, he is not a rav that is good at applying halachah l’meisah).
I understand you. You want to believe these askanim since you made up your mind, that an eruv is osser. However, if you were to ask those rabbanim who allowed an eruv you will see that your story and timeline is fictitious.
I never said that this gvir was not involved, but to claim that there wasn't any rabbanim who supported the eruv from the get-go is simply untrue.
Here is a link to the Naroler’s letter (see page 20 of the Hebrew section) http://www.israel613.com/books/ERUV_COMMUNITY_ERUV.pdf
In any case, you only debate my ancillary arguments, but conviviality forget about anything halachic. Which brings me to my original argument, please learn the inyan prior to making grand statements.
Rav Wosner says in that teshuva linked by Dovid that eruvin made anywhere in Brooklyn are good lefi shitas Rambam, a shita required by the Alter Rebbe. So do they carry in Crown Heights?
ReplyDeleteR' Dovid Feinstein is a bigger authority on his father's shitos than R' Bentzion Wosner and he does not agree with R' Bentzion's rendering of his father's shitos.
ReplyDeleteWhat now for the pro-eruv propagandists?
Vos Zogt Tzig:
ReplyDeleteThis is not some new invention which Rav Wosner came up with. The Shulchan Aruch O.C. 362:10 states that the Rambam considers a tzuras hapesach a valid mechitzah when utilizing at the minimum two mechitzos that are omed merubeh al
This is not some new invention which Rav Wosner came up with. The Shulchan Aruch O.C. 362:10 states that the Rambam considers a tzuras hapesach a valid mechitzah when utilizing at the minimum two mechitzos that are omed merubeh al haparutz.
As to your question, very few people know this Mechaber (why should one know about hilchos eruvin when most rabbanim don’t know much about the inyan). However, Crown Heights doesn't have an eruv yet.
Dovid appointed himself spokesman for everyone here including Tzig himself?
ReplyDeleteCrown Heights is lav davka. Lubavitchers live in areas of Brooklyn where there are eruvin, so the question stands, do they agree that these Brooklyn eruvin are shitas Rambam as required by Shulchan Aruch Harav?
Next/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteWhere does Rav Bentzion say that Rav Moshe would allow an eruv?
This is ironic. In Brooklyn, when one argues that Rav Moshe would allow an eruv, the rejoinder is that Rav Dovid maintains that his father would not allow an eruv, and he knows his father’s opinion better than anyone. On the other hand, in Chicago (and LA), where Rav Dovid allowed an eruv, the anti-eruvist argue that he is incorrect regarding his father’s shitos in eruvin. When the objective is to negate an eruv, the anti-eruv group always knows better, even better than Rav Dovid. However, in Brooklyn we can’t argue that Rav Dovid is incorrect. Rav Moshe’s teshuvos are published regarding eruvin. No one has an exclusive on them. See this link regarding Rav Dovid http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2010/02/rav-dovid-feinstein-shlita-and-flatbush.html
Those who support eruvin should try to educate the public so that they shouldn't act like the ignoramus that you are.
Toronto
ReplyDelete"The Toronto rabbonim receive donations in nice amounts from the brothers and if you know how the brothers conduct themselves in gesheft you would know that there isn't much that can stop them when they have an agenda."
I dont know who these "brothers" are, All I see is that by eruvin you are turning over the Halacha on his face, that you will not utilize a eruv that is being funded, by some "brothers" which you decided to be mekabel Loshen Hora on their private wheelings and dealings, eventough by Eruvin the Poskim write Halocha Kdivrie heMiekel Beiruvin.
While I feel that on your meat purchases you don't check how the "Wienstock brothers" of Meal Mart go on with their finances. Or you don't check on your wine purchases,how the Herzog Brothers of Kedem go on with their finances.
I feel some anti eruv obssesion cooking here.
Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDelete“Crown Heights is lav davka. Lubavitchers live in areas of Brooklyn where there are eruvin,”
Just for the sake of clarity, your question was, “So do they carry in Crown Heights?”
“so the question stands, do they agree that these Brooklyn eruvin are shitas Rambam as required by Shulchan Aruch Harav?”
Do they agree? There is nothing to agree with. The Brooklyn eruvin are all omed merubeh al haparutz on four sides, so there is no doubt that they satisfy shitas HaRambam. I know Lubavitcher Chassidim who carry in Boro Park.
Dovid - two things.
ReplyDelete1. Eruvin is not the same as other areas of halacha. Because it is relevant to the public, the public should decide. And I don't mean every shmendrik. To make an eiruv without the haskomo of the local Rabonim, like in London and Flatbush, is a chutzpah.
The traffic light sevoro is absolute foolishness. The traffic light does not impede traffic, it assists it. It decides who gets to go at any given time. EIther the North-South people or the East-West people. That is the difference between the traffic light and the sentry.
Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDelete“Eruvin is not the same as other areas of halacha. Because it is relevant to the public, the public should decide. And I don't mean every shmendrik. To make an eiruv without the haskomo of the local Rabonim, like in London and Flatbush, is a chutzpah.”
That is absolutely ridiculous. Support for your argument is nonexistent. Every rav large or small has a right to establish an eruv. If a rav has a right to pasken regarding a mikvah, he has a right and even a chiyuv to pasken regarding an eruv, as well. A mikvah is also relevant to the public. You fabricated this distinction in order to satisfy your need to object to eruvin. As a matter of fact the Teshuvos V’Hanhagos (1:844; see also Chasam Sofer, O.C. 99) argues that it is incumbent on each rav to erect an eruv. Merely repeating falsehoods will not make it a fact. Both the Flatbush and London eruvin had support of local rabbanim.
“The traffic light sevoro is absolute foolishness. The traffic light does not impede traffic, it assists it. It decides who gets to go at any given time. EIther the North-South people or the East-West people. That is the difference between the traffic light and the sentry.”
First of all it was the Klausenberger rebbe that suggested this heter. So I guess that he is foolish. Second of all, you like most ignoramuses in this inyan are missing the point. The Klausenberger rebbe argues that since the requirement of a reshus harabbim is that the street needs to be mefulash, and a red light impedes one’s ability to continuously traverse through the street, it is breaking the pilish. It’s irrelevant that the traffic lights were erected to assist traffic, since they inherently impede the facility of a continuous flow through that part of the street. Consequently, there is no difference between a traffic light and a sentry.
Just as I was wondering if the pro-eruv kuntress might be anywhere near legit, I see that they bring a raaya from Mordechai Tendler, the ausvarf who was thrown out of the rabbonus by the beis din of the very posek who sanctioned the Flatbush eruv! And yes he is not the only name in that raaya, but the kuntress refers to him as "HaRav Shlita"!!!
ReplyDeleteThe Boro Park eruv people offer a $5000 reward to anyone who can produce a copy of the 1979 kol koray against it. They pound their chests that you see, no one produced it.
ReplyDeleteVery shvache tayna. I know of a letter from the 1980s because I not only saw it but it was published inside a booklet by a certain rabbi. I actually tried very hard to hold on to this booklet for certain reasons but one day I was away in out of town yeshiva and the booklet was lost, probably by a cleaning lady.
Today it would be very vichtig if I or anyone else could find a copy of this booklet as it would expose a huge kashrus scam, but alas, no one can produce that one either.
Things were not saved electronically until recently.
Yankel
ReplyDelete"And I don't mean every shmendrik. To make an eiruv without the haskomo of the local Rabonim, like in London and Flatbush, is a chutzpah."
the Litvish Am Aratzim act like converts when it gets to halocha, they end up like briskers running around for 30 days for arba minim.
Eiruvin in the history of yiddishkiet was not considered a Aguna question where you needed gedolai hadoir, every little village with 10 jews and 40 cows had a eruv, and the Marsham or reb Yitzhok Elchonen were not conferred on it.
Every era had some eruvin questions that were consulted with the big gedolim.
Kehilas in europe felt a obligation to do Mikva ,Shechitah and a Eruv. In Chasam sofers famous teshuva he writes that it is a mitzva.
If you look with a keen eye, you will see that a nice part of the teshuvas on eruvin, were because there were 2 parties fighting who is the legit Rav in town, Follow the turf line and you will see it.
Regarding the London eruv, see Tzitz Eliezer 19:17. The main Rav opposing this eruv had himself written a teshuva (in his sefer Sdei a Elchonon) advocating building an eruv in London, and he never gave a reason for his chazoro. It is well known in London that it was in fact this Rav's sons (about whom the less said on a family-friendly blog the better) who were the main instigators of this machlokes. B"h there are more modim be'eruv in London every week.
ReplyDeleteCreeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteCan you maybe come up with something a little more damming? Your really scraping the bottom of the barrel. In any case, you forget that the Kuntres was written just about the time that the scandal broke.
Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteYou simply can’t read. The award was for the ORIGINAL kol korei. No one could have seen the original, because it doesn't exist as published. See this link http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2009/09/part-2-1979-flatbush-kol-korei-exposed.html
Even before Mordechai Tendler was officially thrown out of rabbonus the gedolim condemned him for being mevatel kiddushin which is a pirutz she'ain kamoyhu. And even before that he was known as a dray kop & liar which is why many rabbonim ignore the last krach of Igros Moishe that he put together.
ReplyDeleteSo I think there is a pircha on anyone giving him credence.
Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteThis argument is asinine. As I said, you’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel. As you said, he is not the only name in that raaya. But to the point, his name was only mentioned because he was present at a meeting with Rav Bluth and Rav Shalom Dresner. His presence doesn’t detract from the fact that there is incontrovertible proof that there is a major invention disseminated in the 1979 kol korei. The other boroughs were never mentioned in the 1962 Manhattan kol korei. This meeting, which was graced by Tendler’s presence, was mentioned by Rav Menashe, and was only used in the kuntres as further proof that the kol korei is a sham.
I have no problem if you want to ignore the eighth krach of Igros Moshe (I heard one of the rabbanim in Flatbush call it Igros Mordechai). Don’t forget that the teshuvah opposing the Boro Park eruv is included therein. Moreover, the teshuvah opposing the Boro Park eruv was written to Tendler (even though it should have been written to Rav Menashe), so accordingly it should definitely be discounted.
Dovid
ReplyDelete"Those who support eruvin should try to educate the public so that they shouldn't act like the ignoramus that you are."
there is a custom(Minhag Oisios gihenom) in a neighborhood near the Brooklyn Navy yard, to make a get together of chizuk on Chol Hamoed Pesach for Jews who are Kofrim in the Mitzvas Derabonon, since it is boruch hashem a very small fringe, they need chizuk on a annual basis. So every year they find some letterhead Rav or Rosh to spew some chizuk, it reminds me of the yearly shareholders meeting on the Arbieter Ring in the city, where some yiddishisms are rehashed and they call it a night. Obviously the ideal think to do, would be to channel their energy to teach and learn the Halochas of eruvin, for that crowd. but this could backfire, for many reasons. the 2 main reasons are.
If the event will be a torah event it will be a no show, the 2nd reason is that the crowds will realize that they were feeded with lies and am aratzus
Modeh Beieruv:
ReplyDeleteYes, at times they even import a Lithuanian. I guess for those who perceive an eruv as a tzelem, one can even import those with a tzelem oif der hartz. :)
People who don't know much about Halacha shouldn't accuse others of turning it on its face which is actually what they are doing themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe eruv brothers have a reputation of being dishonest and often ending up in court with erstwhile shutfim. I have heard this from several people with firsthand experience, in shul, and from my own relatives who boruch Hashem refused to get involved with them when they saw how slick they are. Ask around Lakewood regarding the big machlokes with pharmacies from Toronto people.
Those who are dishonest cannot be trusted. The Taz poskens like the Rosh in chullin who says from the Rambam that an avaryan even for a single mitzva is not trusted in kashrus. The yesod behind this is that when he is poker for tayvah in a single avayrah we are afraid he will not keep any mitzva properly, not kashrus and not anything else.
And considering how driven some people are when wanting an eruv, even a little white lie from the meeting with Rav Elyashev can be suspected, a little white lie that can drastically change the whole picture.
All I said originally is that I would like confirmation of what was said in the meeting from someone other than the brothers.
On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv and 100,000s of others,
ReplyDeletethe pro-eruv shill is detached from reality.
Do you know how many roshei yeshiva & rabbonim will not allow you to daven by them if you carry? And they are right to be so tough about it. Halacha backs them up 100% to exclude those carrying.
Not in my name
ReplyDeleteI did not authorize or care for the comment supposedly in my behalf from Mr. Praktish. I had two points to make and I do not take responsibility for any other opinion from the various non-eiruv proponents on this post.
BTW, what did Shulem Foigel think of an eiruv in Brooklyn?
"not in my name" is agav the slogan of the radical Left to attack Israel for defending itself in Gaza.
ReplyDeleteSo what is Yankel's opinion of carriers being banned from shuls & yeshivos?
Do you mean the Foigel from Ger?
I am no more of a right-wing Israeli than a left-wing Israeli. I do not claim to understand war and terrorism and I find it amusing to see how many laymen's ignorant opinions are sold with such absolute certainty about the correctness of any given war as well as the other side. What I do know is that the Torah disqualifies Bibi from being on the ballot and therefore his ears are rogue wars. Could be a legitimate prime minister would also make such a war, I have no idea, but this war is currently illegitimate.
ReplyDeleteFind me the siman in Shulchan Aruch about being banned from Shul and I will try and learn it.
Foigel is the name of the character this post is about.
Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteAnd as I said, Rav Elyashiv did not reinvent the wheel over in this case. He advocated that the eruv should consist of mechitzos omed merubeh al haparutz. The overwhelming majority of Rishonim and Achronim maintain as such. In any case, I know that Rav Shlomo Miller agrees that it is sufficient.
The issue of Rav Moshe’s shitos, is really a moot point. Rav Moshe was a huge mechadash in eruvin, so unless he actually objected to that particular eruv it’s incorrect to require the world to follow his shitos. Moreover, Rav Moshe declared that he cannot issue a p’sak din barur in Brooklyn because his chiddushim were not accepted by the Aruch HaShulchan and the Achronim (see Igros Moshe, O.C. 4:87-88). So I simply don’t understand how one can be mechiyuv the velt to follow his shitos in eruvin. Therefore, your entire diatribe regarding the brothers is irrelevant.
Those involved in the parshas ha’eruv, who know the halachos, are usually pro eruv. However, since most people don’t begin to know hilchos eruvin, if they get involved they usually oppose its establishment.
I reiterate, those who don’t know hilchos ERUVIN should first learn through the sugya before they shoot from the hip (notice I only mentioned eruvin).
Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDelete"Do you know how many roshei yeshiva & rabbonim will not allow you to daven by them if you carry? And they are right to be so tough about it. Halacha backs them up 100% to exclude those carrying."
The fact that Roshei Yeshivos are involved in this inyan proves that there is a major bias regarding this issue. Roshei Yeshivos are not poskim and have no right to involve themselves in matters of halachah. Moreover, 99% of rabbanim don’t know hilchos eruvin, so it’s irrelevant what they maintain.
Pray tell me how does halachah support not allowing one to daven in a shul if he follows his rav who allows him to make use of an eruv.
Dovid shows what a gass ruach he is in belittling roshei yeshiva
ReplyDeleteSome roshei yeshiva are also poskim and what's to say that others did not learn eruvin well
If they hold like R ' Moishe it is assur midOraysa to carry & they cannot have people traipsing in to Shabbos shacharis holding Tallis zecklach or creating other shters
Surely Dovid is smart enough to know that much but just cannot let go of his obsession to force eruvin down everyone's throats
Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteRav Tuvia Goldstein zt”l told me that never mind hilchos eruvin, meseches eruvin is not a yeshivshe mesechta, so don’t expect them to know it. Rav Tuvia was referring to the Roshei Yeshivos. Even you admit that only some Roshei Yeshivos are poskim. Those on the list of ossrim, who are clearly not poskim, have no right to get involved in halacic inyanim. You can call me names but it doesn’t change the fact that eruvin is a miktzoa that few rabbanim know well.
Unless these rabbanim are makpid, that those who daven in their shule follow their piskei halachah exclusively, eruvin should be no different than any other halachic issue that is debatable. As long as one follows a rav there is no reason to censure him. The reason why eruvin is different than other issues is only because of me b’rosh. People publicly carrying in a rav’s eruv is a clear sign of the posek’s influence and support in the community, unlike relying on the rav’s hechsher on food, which is a more private matter.
Regarding Rav Moshe, I reiterate (I know it’s hard for them to believe) he never issued a p’sak din barur in Brooklyn. So why are they carrying on. Furthermore, I have yet to meet a rav that truly knows Rav Moshe’s shitos in eruvin.
Cut it Out
ReplyDelete"If they hold like R ' Moishe it is assur midOraysa to carry & they cannot have people traipsing in to Shabbos shacharis holding Tallis zecklach or creating other shters"
how many of this rabonim are checking if thiere mispalelim are using shabos timers for their chandeliers and air conditioners?
according to Reb Moshe its Chilul shabos.
why is it only the eruv that they are obsessed with?
Carrying is an Oirassah.
ReplyDeleteTimers is not even a regular rabonnon.
R' Moishe holds that the problem with timers is ess felt in kedushas Shabbos. The way he explained it to one rov, they will end up using timers to automate everything including vehicles & airplanes so that there is no mussag left that it's Shabbos.
Am Haaretz, tzai ulmad/Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDelete"Carrying is an Oirassah."
If the population of Brooklyn is less than three million, and if Brooklyn is compassed by mechitzos then the matter is no more of a d’Oraysa. Besides for which Rav Moshe never issued a p’sak din barur. Go learn the inyan, prior to getting worked up about it.
“Surely Dovid is smart enough to know that much but just cannot let go of his obsession to force eruvin down everyone's throats”
By the way, the only people who don’t stop carrying on are those who oppose eruvin. They don’t allow those who carry into their shule, they threaten to throw kids out of the mosdos. People who carry are, at times, harassed in the streets, etc. On the other hand please show me where those who don’t carry are harassed. It simply doesn't happen. So who has an, “obsession” to force something, “down everyone’s throat?”
"please show me where those who don’t carry are harassed. It simply doesn't happen"
ReplyDeleteI have been ridiculed by groupies of a shyster Rebbe supporting the BP eruv for refusing to carry, my refusal al pi most of the gedolim. This Rebbe is not exactly a big name in learning and has been involved in multiple shmitzike maysim on top of that.
"Go learn the inyan"
ReplyDeleteThe gadol hador Rav Elyashev ztl certainly did & says it is klor R' Moishe assers to carry in Brooklyn and similar large cities.
This Dovid guy is something else. He is more veit than many of his fellow eruv advocates who agree there is a machlokes haposkim. He is taking it to a whole new level by putting words in R' Moishe's mouth, backed by his propaganda pamphlet to that effect.
Is that so?/Am Haaretz, tzai ulmad/Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteI don’t believe you for one second. No one cares if you don’t carry. The only ones who are bothered are those who perceive the eruv as a threat, because they believe that Rav Moshe would have ossered, and that the world must follow his p’sak. Or because they believe that the rabbanim hamatirim are am haratzim. That is why they scream.
The truth is they don’t begin to know Rav Moshe’s p’sak and they don’t know hilchos eruvin.
Am Haaretz, tzai ulmad/Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteShow me where Rav Elyashiv made such a statement. You simply made that up. I put words into Rav Moshe’s mouth? I guess you can’t refute what I have to say, so you resort to such outright lies.
Dovid is like a yeshiva bochur who thinks he knows the sugya because instead of learning the Rishonim inaveinik, he kleibs through the "Green Monster" Otzar Meforshei Hatalmud.
ReplyDeleteBut at least the "Green Monster" is reliable, unlike the propaganda pamphlet on the eruv that is Dovid's gospel. The pamphlet is his big bekius on eruv and as you see from timers he doesn't know much more than alef beis in hilchos Shabbos.
By your own admission or maybe it was a different propagandist on this blog saying Rav Elyashev only allowed Toronto for 2 reasons, one of them because R' Leib Graubart poskened before R' Moshe. Dos meint that Rav Elyashev agrees that R' Moshe does not allow in large cities.
ReplyDeleteWithout making any deductions, I heard Rav Elyashev's deyah from the delegation leader to him re the Flatbush eruv.
Is that so?/Am Haaretz, tzai ulmad/Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteYou like typical yeshivah bochrim begin with the Rishonim, as if that is the way we pasken. You are such an am hamretz, that you don’t begin to realize how piskei halachah is formed.
What are you referring to, “he doesn't know much more than alef beis in hilchos Shabbos?” Besides for the fact that you probably don’t realize how much hilchos eruvin is included in hilchos Shabbos, you definitely don’t realize how much the Gemara in Shabbos speaks about eruvin. Don’t forget neither maseches Shabbos and Eruvin are yeshivashe masechtos, so how should you know this. In any case, I suspect it’s just a smoke screen as usual.
Am Haaretz, tzai ulmad/Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteAs usual you don’t begin to know what you are talking about. Rav Elyashiv was asked that since Toronto is in North America, do they need to be concerned with Rav Moshe’s shitos in eruvin. He answered that since there was an eruv in Toronto prior to Rav Moshe’s rabbanus, they do not need to be concerned with it. Rav Elyashiv did not get involved with Rav Moshe’s actual opinions regarding eruvin.
The delegation leader has no nemanus just like they lied regarding Rav Wosner and the Gerer rebbe.
But as usual you miss the point. There is no doubt that Rav Elyashiv maintained that Rav Moshe objected to an eruv in Brooklyn. That’s elementary to anyone who learnt through Rav Moshe’s teshuvos on the matter. My point is that I don’t believe that Rav Elyashiv had an opinion regarding the current Brooklyn eruvin vis-à-vis Rav Moshe’s shitos. Nor do I think that Rav Elyashiv would mix into a local machlokas, at all. It is also important to note, that Rav Elyashiv did not follow Rav Moshe’s shitos in eruvin.
Moreover, you claim that Rav Elyashiv declared that, “R' Moishe assers to carry in Brooklyn and similar large cities.” If Rav Elyashiv followed Rav Moshe he would have a problem with the Gush Dan, as well. In any case, I would follow Rav Tuvia Goldstein over Rav Elyashiv regarding Rav Moshe’s shitos in eruvin. Rav Tuvia stated many times in his kollel that Rav Moshe would allow the Brooklyn eruvin in their current construct. As I said go learn through the inyan (including hilchos Shabbos) prior to making grand statements.
Talk about smokescreens. Dovid tries to boomerang back the Green Monster comment by taking it out of context to attack his critic.
ReplyDeleteHow odd that Dovid attacks the delegation leader as aino neeman when he is a rosh yeshiva himself beshlichus a senior rosh yeshiva. Dovid will no doubt now also attack the Rambam as someone "who doesn't know how to posken" as the Rambam poskens on people on like Dovid: Hamevazeh talmid chochom befarhesya ..."
"What are you referring to, “he (Dovid) doesn't know much more than alef beis in hilchos Shabbos?”
Comparing timers which meikkur hadin are MUTTER to a serious issur like Hoytzoah!
"neither maseches Shabbos and Eruvin are yeshivashe masechtos"
Veiter grubbeh am haaratzus! Lakewood has an eruvin chabura at least. Shabbos may not be in R' Chaim Volozhiner's 5 year cycle but it is in the 10 year cycle of Kletzk-Lakewood & some others as a regular non-chabura masechta. And the miktzoyah they learn in Shabbos is hoytzoah.
And for all your talk about R' Tuvya, I know some big talmidim of his, all of whom do not use Brooklyn eruvin.
Am Haaretz, tzai ulmad/Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDeleteBoy, are you a glutton for punishment:
“Talk about smokescreens. Dovid tries to boomerang back the Green Monster comment by taking it out of context to attack his critic.”
Your comment was so asinine. In any case, it seems that you don’t get it.
“How odd that Dovid attacks the delegation leader as aino neeman when he is a rosh yeshiva himself beshlichus a senior rosh yeshiva. Dovid will no doubt now also attack the Rambam as someone "who doesn't know how to posken" as the Rambam poskens on people on like Dovid: Hamevazeh talmid chochom befarhesya ..."
They simply are liars and were mevazeh a talmid chacham, so b'mokom sheyeish chillul Hashem ein cholkim kovod l'rav (Shulchan Aruch, Y.D. siman 242:11).
“Comparing timers which meikkur hadin are MUTTER to a serious issur like Hoytzoah!”
I knew it. You simply are not capable of differentiating between commenters. I didn't write that comment. However, the point is not that one is a d’Oraysa and the other is a d’rabbanan. The argument is, how can you require others, who follow their rav, l’chumra and l’kulah, and who allows them to carry, when you are cherry picking which of Rav Moshe’s piskei halachah to follow. In any case, there are other issues that most of the world does not follow Rav Moshe, and they can manifest themselves on a d’Oraysa level, such as zemanim. However, I don’t have much use for this style of argument at all. As can be discerned from your retorts, there is not much that you and your ilk can answer when the arguments are in halachah.
“Veiter grubbeh am haaratzus! Lakewood has an eruvin chabura at least. Shabbos may not be in R' Chaim Volozhiner's 5 year cycle but it is in the 10 year cycle of Kletzk-Lakewood & some others as a regular non-chabura masechta. And the miktzoyah they learn in Shabbos is hoytzoah.”
First of all, Rav Tuvia is the one who mentioned this. So I guess that he is a, “grubbeh am haaratzus.” I know the Lakewood chaburas very well, indeed. Halevai, they would produce quality morei horahah b’Yisroel. I have had discussions with members of these chaburas. It is very disappointing; they simply don’t have a method in how to approach halalchah. The problem is, lomdus doesn’t impart hachra’ah.
In any case, I stand by my statement. Notwithstanding the fact that Lakewood has some chaburas that learn Shabbos and Eruvin they are not considered yeshivashe masechtos.
“And for all your talk about R' Tuvya, I know some big talmidim of his, all of whom do not use Brooklyn eruvin.”
Smokescreen alert. Who is arguing what the talmidim do or don’t do? I don’t care if they don’t use the eruv. The point is that Rav Tuvia believes that Rav Moshe would allow the Brooklyn eruvin in their current construct. I want to see a talmid say otherwise.
R' Tuvya is correct regarding the 5 year Volozhiner cycle. It's poshut he was not referring to the 10 year cycle that includes hoytzoah.
ReplyDeleteAnd no one made Dovid the big expert on who from Lakewood can or cannot posken in eruvin.
Some big names in poskening on eruvin, mechabrei seforim & consultants are yotzei Lakewood.
The yeshivishe oylam has a general tendency to defer to R' Moshe in these inyanim. R' Aron Kotler said no one should wear a hat cover where there is no eruv even though he holds it is mutter as deference to R' Moshe. Again, it is not up to Dovid to decide what constitutes picking & choosing.
Rav Elyashev does not "mix in" to chutz laAretz machlokessen as far as writing a psak on his letterhead but he did allow others to write in his name. There have been multiple instances of this in many areas of halacha, some even more chamur than this.
And you ARE being mevazeh the roshei yeshiva with no basis from your Shulchan Aruch citation. There is a very fine line in what Rav Wosner said about his son that he could still construe as "not criticizing" him. There was a completely different issue with Rav Wosner's mechutan Dayan Westheim where Rav Wosner answered, vos? You want I should publicly attack my own mechutan?
Am Haaretz, tzai ulmad/Cut it out already/Praktish/On behalf of Monsey/Shvach/Creeped Out/Yankel/Koifetz beRoish Watch/Follow the money/Toronto/Manhattan Eruv:
ReplyDelete“R' Tuvya is correct regarding the 5 year Volozhiner cycle. It's poshut he was not referring to the 10 year cycle that includes hoytzoah.”
Thanks for your haskama on the Roshei Yeshiva. No, Rav Tuvia was referring to the general lack of learning other meschtas and halachah in Yeshivos. Lakewood halachah chaburos suffer from their inability to shake of the hierarchical system that lomdus rules. Hence, the kevetching in halachah, which doesn’t allow many of them to get anywhere.
“And no one made Dovid the big expert on who from Lakewood can or cannot posken in eruvin. Some big names in poskening on eruvin, mechabrei seforim & consultants are yotzei Lakewood.”
You wouldn’t know if someone knows the inyan well enough to pasken if we hit you over the head with it. No one consults with Lakewood rabbanim regarding eruvin (besides for Rav Eider zt”l). Lakewood has many problematic eruvin themselves. This is the fault of the campaign to negate city eruivn.
“The yeshivishe oylam has a general tendency to defer to R' Moshe in these inyanim. R' Aron Kotler said no one should wear a hat cover where there is no eruv even though he holds it is mutter as deference to R' Moshe. Again, it is not up to Dovid to decide what constitutes picking & choosing.”
Since the yeshivishe olam knows nothing about hilchos eruvin, they have a “tendency to differ to Rav Moshe in these inyanim.” However, they don’t even know Rav Moshe’s shitos regarding eruvin. Rav Moshe never issued a p’sak din barur regarding the Brooklyn eruvin. Moreover, since Rav Moshe admitted that his shitos are chiddushim that are not mentioned in the Achronim and that the Aruch HaShulchan would not agree with them, how can one require that the world follow Rav Moshe in these inyanim? It’s simple am haaratzus.
This diatribe is irrelevant. There were issues that Rav Aharon did not agree with Rav Moshe, and didn’t even want him to publish his teshuvah. As recalled by Rav Tuvia regarding eruvin, there were issues that Rav Moshe disagreed with Rav Aharon. Obviously, there was more to it than just deference.
“Rav Elyashev does not "mix in" to chutz laAretz machlokessen as far as writing a psak on his letterhead but he did allow others to write in his name. There have been multiple instances of this in many areas of halacha, some even more chamur than this.”
This is all excuses. Rav Elyashiv, as opposed to these askanim, knew that this is a major machlokas, and would not mix into this inyan whatsoever. As I mentioned these askanim are not trustworthy. They lied about Rav Shmuel Wosner and the Gerer rabbe, so they are not neeman regarding Rav Elyashiv either. Wow more chamur than eruvin!
“And you ARE being mevazeh the roshei yeshiva with no basis from your Shulchan Aruch citation. There is a very fine line in what Rav Wosner said about his son that he could still construe as "not criticizing" him. There was a completely different issue with Rav Wosner's mechutan Dayan Westheim where Rav Wosner answered, vos? You want I should publicly attack my own mechutan?”
There is no fine line. These askanim are simple liars and mecharchei riv. They are not trustworthy whatsoever. Every rav has a right to establish an eruv, and call in any expert of his choosing. That these askanim considered this issue so crucial that they needed to travel to Eretz Yisroel to talk to his tatty, demonstrates that this has little to do with Yiras Shomayim but only with mi b’rosh.
Go learn the inyan. Stop with these ancillary issues.