(See Part I here)
So what makes Reb Avrohom Tzvi Kluger and his Chabureh so attractive?
Let's face it, many of our yungeleit realize that there's a lot more to Torah than strictly limud haNigleh, especially when it comes to Chassidishe Yungeleit. They see that many of the Yeshivishe Oylem are a lot frummer than they are and may even feel more connected to Yiddishkeit than they are. The Brisker and ChazonIsh'Nikkes are plenty in Israel and their "hiddur mitzvah" may get a chossid thinking about his. So they try and find out what sets them apart. What the Baal Shem Tov was all about.] What he fought for, or rather why he was fought. He never fought anybody. [So they search elsewhere because they're unhappy with the fact that the groups that they're in do not emphasize the learning of Sifrei HaChassidus like some other groups do. Kluger gives them the Chassidus - lots of it - without the commitment that joining a group like Chabad would take. Of course they're eventually expected to commit themselves to Kluger's group as well, but I would guess that most people don't see themselves as joining when they first go to the shiurim/davenen. I've heard some of his shiurim, but have never met him. He's a terrific Baal Masbir and breaks down shverre musogim in Chassidus and Kabboloh into pitz pitzlach. That could be difficult for those of you that have no interest in these inyonim to understand, but that's how it is. I would imagine that the davenen and the sheves achim/farbrengen/butte/zitz has lots to do with it too, but again, I have yet to witness one.
Why do others like Reb Tzvi Mayeh not have the same issues with other Rebbes that Kluger has? Why don't they call for a boycott of RZM? For a while I thought it was because RZM only attracts those that had no formal chassidus of their own, in which case he wasn't upsetting anybody, because he wasn't taking anybody's yungeleit. But after doing some research I realized that it's totally not the case. He shleps from others shoyn eyn mohl, he just plays his cards right. He mentions from all seforim, absolutely all. Every vort he says shteit shoyn in Shaarei Tshuveh, Mesilos Yeshorim, Nefesh Hachaim, Kozhnitzer Maggid, Der Chozeh, Sfas Emes, Beis HaLevi, Reb Tzodik HaCohen, Pachad Yitzchok (Hutner) and Sukkas Dovid. If that's the case who can be upset at him? If it ever happens that he mentions something from Tanya or Reb Nachman then it's squuezed in there - somewhere between the Chozeh and Rav Hutner... He stays away from Chabad and Breslov, bekitzer. The smartest thing he does to avoid the wrath of the Rebbes is NOT TO TRAVEL TO UMAN!! Of course they're upset, there were hundreds of empty seats in their shuls this Rosh Hashoneh. If only Rabbi Kluger would not be so idealistic he would survive. What is it about people that are connected to Lubavitch that they can't play the game to please the masters?!
[Up next: why people with no affiliation may be opposed to him, and why people that were harassed for leaving their fold and joining another sympathize with RATK.]
148 comments:
How much were you paid for this P.R piece??
Nice way to make a couple of $$$$
12,000,000 Iraqi Dinars. cash. Nice, no?
Hirshel
It is also that the Poilisher Reb Zvi Mier knows better how to maneuver, he is official a chosid of the Amshinover, he was first officially a Gerer where is family origins are from, but changed for pragmatic reasons to Amshinev.
It is not true that RZM tzit nisht. There was pressure in the beginning on Belzer followers, some chosheve yungeleit amongst them, to desist from going to him. While there were fears about him in those days he's shown himself not to be a cult leader but more of a mashpia in the frame of shmelke biderman, morgenstern and others.
(FWIW I think RZM farkoyft zeier veinik. I've seen clips of him prancing about but he says very little that's either original or even yenems which is intellectually challenging. He is well suited to the current generation that needs a wow factor and having someone jumping on the oren koidesh fits the bill nicely.)
As to Kluger, he has the image of a cult leader if only due to his wild hermit looks. Apparently he's also associated with the burqua women which is yet further proof that he's beyond the fringe. And then of course there's Uman. Breslov tends to draw these kind of nuts so taking a few married men with you who've never done it before will attract attention.
The question however is why did the rebbes react in the way they did. I am most surprised at the Belzer reaction as he is supposed to be more open minded than the rest. Up to a point, it appears.
What it shows is how precarious the whole edifice is and as soon as a new threat comes along they all resort to thuggery to keep their followers in line. Satmar did it with Mendl Vechter and now Belz is doing it with Kluger. es vet zey gornisht helfn and when their day comes they'll all fold like a pack of cards, if it hasn't started already.
Gevezener Belzer as you know Belz is a steaming cauldron that can barely keep it's lid on. When the day comes and it will blow up, it will be a sight to see.
As an insider can you give us more details on Belz dynamics. It would be beneficial to all who are suffering under their totalitarian system. The same is true about Skvere. It is a rachmonus on the women,yingerleit and children who did not choose to join these groups but unfortunately for them were born into them. This is our dirty little secret that no one dares to discuss.
I beg to differ about your description of Belz as a steaming cauldron. Unless I am so far removed that I am out of touch.
For e.g. visit ganei geula on Rosh Hashone and Yom Kipper and there are many Belzers v'ein poitze peh. There are many minyonim on shabbes and slikhes besides the rov's. I hear that there was a children's minyen on yomim noiroim which the gaboim wanted to prevent but Aron Mordche overruled them.
Yes he keeps a tight reign but it is miles away from skver. Before you accuse me of going native again I can assure you that there is plenty to criticise obver vos iz emes iz emes.
And for the record I think B M Kuperstein's intervention in the Uman saga was outrageous. The man is a thug who is let out of the cage whenever his services are required.
Sorry that should have been a tight 'rein', in my last comment. Please correct.
I will open myself to an accusation of being narrow minded but your English may give clues to what kind of Belzer you were. Rein or reign is not in their vocabulary and the spelling would definitely not be an issue.
I am going to venture a guess that you are a bent down hat,beardless Galitzianer Belzer.
Therefore it would be reasonable to assume that you were never under the Belzer regime.
Belz is different than Skvere. The empires are different. Belz is a sprawling international empire. Skvere is mainly a cult compound.
They both have problems.
Belz by dint of its sprawling nature is unwieldy to control. The outposts have become personal fiefdoms where there is infighting and jockeying for position. The CEO cannot know what is going on and there are many layers of bureaucracy that keeps him out of the know. The keepers of the gate do not allow access either which keeps him removed form the day to day.
Also, Belz has a succession problem which is starting to rear its ugly head. It is unimaginable that many are not worried about this.
This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Again, shedding light on this may be beneficial to the voiceless.
If the previous poster is a "a bent down hat,beardless Galitzianer Belzer." for using reign, what are you for using fiefdom?
to clarify
"a bent down hat,beardless Galitzianer Belzer" is not an attack.
The yidden who go to the Rebbe for the holidays are like tourists that don't see how the natives actually live and are just allowed to see the glitzy beach fronts.
RZM mentions Chabad and Breslov plenty. So does Morgenstern.
Belz Ubber Alles,
What is your backround if I may ask and where are you familiar with Belz from?
I"m from a yeshiva backround, though I believe my zeyda may have had some shaychus with Belz, but I have nothing at all with them.
Anyway, I really like the Rebbe.He is an independant thinking person, who doesn't toe the average Chareidy line
True Belz has a little to much chasidic cultishness but way less than Chabad or Skver or even Ger.
They have developed the best baalei niggun like Yirmia Daman.Apparently Belz was not a very musical chassidus before Daman and Breier came around.
They also have some nice talmidei chachomim.
I really think you are wrong when you call it a steaming cauldron about to explode.I know some Belzers quite well, including rabbonim and don't see it this way at all.Of course in America it may be different than Israel
Apparently you are misinformed on the kluger saga.
I got a brother and some friends who are current or former kluger fans and i can tell you first hand that the issues with kluger are much deeper than anything mentioned here. I won't be the one spilling the beans here, suffice it to say he is doing much more damage to the yiddishkeit/yiras shamayim of his fans than improving, even though his fans claim otherwise. It has NOTHING to do with breslov/chabad And that my friend is what the rebbes are afraid of and thats why they don't have a problem with RZM.
Get your self some more inside info from a real current or former insider...
Zvi
"They have developed the best baalei niggun like Yirmia Daman.Apparently Belz was not a very musical chassidus before Daman and Breier came around"
sorry for raining on your party, Belz with all their nigunin still dont know how to sing and only produced 5 good nigunim from 20 CDS vs. a Yitzchok unger from Visnitz, Chaim Banet from Seret or Moshe Goldman that all their nigunim are here to stay. Belz and nigunim are a oxymorn they are not succeding in fixing it,I listened to all hours of singing by the belzer Bar Mitzva, it was bad and tasteless, as they didnt fix the muddy streets of Belz in Galicia.
Belz Uber ..
"Skvere is mainly a cult compound."
I am not a Skwerer but what makes skver in to a cult more then any other chassides?
the minhogim look a little foreign for the Hungarians since they are not used to it.by not permittimg a other Miyan in town it does not become a cult. Even the Tosher Rebbe did not let a other Minyan in his town, eventough he started davening shachris shabos morning 11:30 to 3.00
Belz, Belz, Belz hut geleigt in a vinkel di Toireh in Yitas Shumayim biz mushiach vet kimen.
BUA; "Belz is a steaming cauldron that can barely keep it's lid on"
Naa. They have a team of in-house psychs led by Ahron Friedman who have studied crowd manipulation techniques for many years. The yodea davar zugin az der Belzer Rebbe zul gezint zein read all the biogrophies of World tyrants and leaders. It seems he chapped Che Guevara techniques quite well although if he would be more Che and less Rebbe he would be better off..
The bi-product of Belz's Ego building excercises has caused the common pushite Belzer Hassid to be aloof, with oifgeklerte im-from-the-elite vibes wafting at make-you-sneeze levels.
Its LikeWhatever
Wandering
You are giving to much credit for the Belzers, I follow him and I read all his torah, I never ever heard anything original, the only thing he did original in his life was that he was a in the face Mechutzef for the Satmar juggernaut,their was some minor successes but he is still bruised from it. The Karliner did the same thing but in a Eideler way and he is not obsessed with that issue as the Belzer.
"What is it about people that are connected to Lubavitch that they can't play the game to please the masters?!"
I never thought i would read that from you. It screams of idiocy!!!
Its precisely because they are REAL people without agendas, and just want to learn torah and be mayfitz chassidus, that others get so upset at them. They left ALL shallowness behind!! To them, these so-called masters don't exist. They are REAL people. living real lives. They dont have to be yotze for anyone. vda"l
Wandering
You are giving to much credit for the Belzers,
1)Rebelled against Satmar
2)Changed the Chinuch system onto the Zilbershtein method
3)Aharon Friedman
4)Sends yingerleit out to work
5)Kiruv Program
7)Kashketlach till ur 15
8)Kosher Internet Kiosk
9)Most extravagant Beis medrash for his once Schlepper previously known as Yoshvim
10)Organized fundraising team that developed the Life Long mortgage membership program.
Hes pretty original. Its just that the Yiras Shumayim was a bit Vinkelized
Plus dont forget that the Belzer CEO spread the teachings of Dale Carnegie thru Gam ata yachol more then all the Yoshvim with fleishige beckeshis did for 100 years!
Gevezener
"And for the record I think B M Kuperstein's intervention in the Uman saga was outrageous. The man is a thug who is let out of the cage whenever his services are required."
I am amazed that Kupferstien is still the bully.He is probably close to 60 The young generation could not produce some new blood? His friend S O and the big guy of Monsey are already on the Olam Hoemes
Wandering Jew
"Changed the Chinuch system onto the Zilbershtein method"
I think you are mistaking, they are starting Gemora at what age in Belz? the don"t learn the Parsha?
Yiras Shumayim was a bit Vinkelized
IMHO; the word "vinkelized" is nothing short of genius. Give that man a prize!
Wandering
"Most extravagant Beis medrash for his once Schlepper previously known as Yoshvim"
I don"t call this Original/Sophisticated. It is a premature primitive whim of a Sadam Hussien syndrome.
Wandering Jew
"Changed the Chinuch system onto the Zilbershtein method"
I think you are mistaking, they are starting Gemora at what age in Belz? the don"t learn the Parsha?
Ver gevoor. Mach a bissel research.The Tzig should take erite about the Zilberstein method and the silent revolution taking place in Eretz Yisrael
"It is a premature primitive whim of a Sadam Hussien syndrome."
Nisht mamesh. It was a very clever ploy to boost his companies sense of belonging. It bossted Team Morale. "Kik nur vus s'iz gevurin fin inz galitzianer shleppers!"
No more Reineh Greeneh Yiddisher Shvitz! No more Zoiereh Kashe in Yo'hech mit di hent.
Haant zennen intz... "BELZ!!"
SHTARK! ORGANAZIRT! MITZLUCHIM!
...in... s'eibig azoi geven! shut zich shoin ungehoiben bein ershen belzer Ruv...
Its LikeWhatever
"sorry for raining on your party, Belz with all their nigunin still dont know how to sing and only produced 5 good nigunim from 20 CDS vs. a Yitzchok unger from Visnitz, Chaim Banet from Seret or Moshe Goldman that all their nigunim are here to stay. Belz and nigunim are a oxymorn they are not succeding in fixing it,I listened to all hours of singing by the belzer Bar Mitzva, it was bad and tasteless, as they didnt fix the muddy streets of Belz in Galicia."
Anon 11:07
Each person has their own taste.Nobody forced you to listen to Belzer niggunim.
The frum oilem ,however has voted in a large majority for Belzer niggunim, and Daman isconsiderd the no 1 in the chasidishe music category
I was shocked when I saw by the sinks in the Merkaz Olumi, soap dispenser? Hazois Belz?
I admit that Daman made a beautiful Job on the Rozodover Nigunim from his father, but the Belzer stuff is pulp,
I notice that this Lubavitcher blogger has his pet "peeves".
No 1 of course are Snags (and he really hates Rav Shach..)
No 2 Skver (he is just jealous.They have a "fleishigeh" rebbe, he has an "iggress"
No 3 Belz. He just hates this guys guts.Firstlyhe signed an alliance with Snags.Secondly, he thinks.Very "unchasidish".Thirdly, just like with Skver, he is "fleishig" and the blogger has an "iggress".
Jealousy is such a terrible quality...
He probably won't allow the previous comment thru.
It violated his number one rule:Kiss up to Lubavitch.
it's very true what you say about those groups having "fleyshige" Rebbes, but please tell me where I mentioned either of those groups in this post?
I didn't think so.
So who has pet peeves, me or you?
I think they need to change Lubavitchs' name to....
Lubavitch-Igress.
Just like Karlin-Pinsk.
Nice name inmho
Lomer:
so who's the fool now, eh?
have you read some of the recent comments here?!
The statement was a general one about your blog, and Belz,arch-enemy no 3 was mentioned here.
In my book the Belzer deserves special credit for being basheigetzed publicly by the L.Rebbe.
"Lubavitch-Igress"
I just like the name
Funny thing was even the Ukrainian gvir guest speaker at the "Igress-Kinnus" was into "igros".
Who needs a "fleishigeh" rebbe if you have "igress"
Stand up if you do!!!
A better name would be....drumroll.......
Lubavitch-Video-Igress.
Now that is a good name!!
Needs to be patented!!!
(Lubavitch already have a patent on "Shlit"a le'olom vo'ed" slogan!!)
I'm reminded of the story:
Once upon a time a chasidishe yingerman came to the Beis Halevy,father of the Soloveichik dynasty.He sobbed that his rebbe had cursed him that he would not last till the next year.Beis Halevy asked him "Did the chasidim here about the curse?" "no" answered the chusid. "Then you have nothing to worry about"
If Belzer and Skverer do do some d.diligence.....
KEREN ZAVIS SAY'S
RZM is בלתי לה' לבדו.
i know this from going to hear him 13 years. he doesn't "play his cards" because he is only a shliach of גדולי ישראל that are מיעץ him to be מעורר the עוילם. he sees himself only as a צינור. he is teaching people to believe and live with the ה' הוא האלוקים that אליהו הנביא taught on הר הכרמל.
that's why you don't think you hear חידושים from him.
His "non chiddishem" are way over the "chiddishem" I heard in my short trip into Chabad Chassidus
Meir
Amazing, how proud a Ferd can be?
Anonymous
Are you tslking about "Lubavitch pride" or "Kovod Lyubavitch"
I thought so...
Lomer Mach....
"No 2 Skver (he is just jealous.They have a "fleishigeh" rebbe"
you really believe that a serious chasid with a half a brain is Jealous about Skver and his Rebbe?
part of the defenition of cult is you can't leave...i know belzers that hate the rebbi but will not leave because of various pressures...
is being married also a cult? you would like to leave but various commitments restrict you from Leaving? or the same with your job?
not all of us that are married want to leave.. ditto on the job...
"you really believe that a serious chasid with a half a brain is Jealous about Skver and his Rebbe?"
Yes.Different strokes for different folks.
Since you asked so nicely, I"ll tell you the truth, I don't think Tzig is a "serious chasid"
He famously once remarked about what attracted him to Lubavitch:
His "brilliant" answer, "Rebbeim and niggunim".Well he knew none of the rebbes and if chooses a chassidus based on niggunim John Lennon should have had the biggest chassides
The Tzig was a kid who felt he belonged nowhere and since he is a moshe kapoyer and the lubob give a strong sense of belonging he joined.
.".i know belzers that hate the rebbi but will not leave because of various pressures..."
I know Lubob who have the same sentiment
lomir machen
1) you don't know me.
2) you don't know my history
3) you're a quack and a bad one.
4) please don't believe all the lies you see from the commenters, especially as far as what I saw and when I saw. Say all that you want, but don't lie about me.
far be it from me to rain on your psycho babble parade, but you're a buffoon.
I guess all those Skverrers who were born there made intelligent choices, right?!
I"ve read enough of your blog to know about you.
You joined Lubavitch because of the "rebbeim and niggunim",didn't you?? Now that's deep! (besides for the fact that you did not even know them)
The Sverer beat Lubavitch any day of the week!At least they don't push "loilem voed" "moshiach" etc etc.
You are just jealous you bet on the losers team
ok, you convinced me.
so, should I join Skver now?
"4) please don't believe all the lies you see from the commenters, especially as far as what I saw and when I saw. Say all that you want, but don't lie about me."
There is NO reason to lie about you!
it's my own fault, people. I know. I encourage them.
{sigh}
"so, should I join Skver now?"
And then I"ll get flack from Skver for convincing guys like you to join?!
Stay put.Loony bin is a good place for you.At least amongst the halb gebakeneh& baaley teshiveh you are considerd smart
you're right!
among you smart ones I'd be nobody!
so I did bet on the winning team after all!!!
thanks for the free professional advice. I'm so glad I had the chance to be the recipient of such genius.
belz uber alles
"Belz by dint of its sprawling nature is unwieldy to control. The outposts have become personal fiefdoms where there is infighting and jockeying for position. The CEO cannot know what is going on and there are many layers of bureaucracy that keeps him out of the know".
Right on ! and don't ask me how I know.....
are you one of the feudal lords that you don't wanna tell us how you know?
On בחדרי חרדים
serious charges were made against Kluger so it is different with him.
Since nobody refuted it (as far as I could tell) he supposedly skipped reciting
ונתנה תוקף
for some kabalistic reason.
Somebody who has the power over a heimishe group to accept such a departure of custom, is by definition a cultist leader.
Yosef 718
Yosef718
I don't think that was ever confirmed. Some say that he skipped, some say they said it quickly, and some say that he started davening a"p nusach HoRaSHaSH, who doesn't have that - and other piyutim.
Not that I know for sure what actually happened. Just saying.
Yosef 718,
I think the reason given for skipping was so people should not get depressed.
Interesting, though to see what makes chasidim tick.
Skipping ונתנה תוקף
is a "serious charge">>>?
Is it EVEN part of davening?
I don't have a position about Kluger, don't know him, but if these are the "serious charges" he is in good company.
How about Lubavitch that skip all the piyutim almost and don't read megillas rus or Koheles and don't say selichos in aseres yemei tshiveh???
almost? what's almost?
they say most - 90% of what the chassidishe oylem says on R"H and Y"K
and they have hundreds of years of mesorah, my friend, for what they do and don't say.
Some rebbes daven Mincha at night, some daven shachris at night, some daven Shabbos tefillos on sunday...
Some fellow did not say Unesaneh Tokef???
Vee shtayt in Torah to say it?
Is there a chiyuv mederabonon?
Do you "have " to say it?
Get back to me when you have answers...
"they say most - 90% of what the chassidishe oylem says on R"H and Y"K"
You sure?
More like 10%
But there is no chiyuv, anyway
yes, I'm sure
When I davened in Satmar we started at 8 and finished at 5.
Lubavitch start at 10 and finish 1:30
yo started ADON OYLOM at 8, had a one hour hafsookeh, sold the aliyos for an hour, made 126,000 mi shebeyrachs during krias hatorah, had a half hour droosheh, and also davened. so you finished at 5. nu, shoin.
Lubavitch started Hodu at 10, didn't sell the aliyos, no hafsookeh, no droshoh and finished at 2:30, not 1:30
you do the math
Actually I wear shich in zokn in der vochn, a shirt without cuffs and buttons till the chest, shife keshenes 7 days a week and a gartl everywhere but the bathroom and mikve.
I think the Belzer's enemies and chasidim have one thing in common which is to endow him with super human qualities. The grim reality is that he established himself with not a small amount of violence and unleashes it to this day when the occasion calls.
While he is open to ideas and modern technology he has not introduced anything to his own institutions which he has been leading for over 40 years that is even remotely revolutionary. He did not ban corporal punishment or deal with sexual abuse and there have been some very violent melamdim in his chadorim. As for sending people to work, of the hundreds of parentshe fillers a handful will go to work. mamash a revolution.
Then there is his music, architecture, dikduk, wine and spirit maivin and every other passing fad he will latch on to. In reality they are nothing but the playthings of a very bored and lonely individual who craves for the recognition and approval he never go as a child brought up without a father by a mad mother and even madder chasidim.
In fact he is no great intellect, he is not an original thinker, he is not academically minded and it is thanks to the mediocrity of his peers and the poor vocabulary of our oilem that anything that is an inch out of line must by definition be a revolution and the work of a genius. He is lucky to have a bunch of pygmies as his fellow gedoilim so that all he has to do is introduce some sarcasm or humor into his hour long speeches and he is a velts redner.
I could go on and on but enough for now.
Gevezener mit di cuffless shirt.
Good comment.
"I think the Belzer's enemies and chasidim have one thing in common which is to endow him with super human qualities"
how did he manage to pull off this great feat?
Is it not a premeditated startegy??
@Wandering: how did he manage to pull off this great feat?
Is it not a premeditated startegy??
Not at all. We do it all the time. From the Tosher's ring to Ifjan and the Amshinover our oilem is in a tizzy trying to find the next otherworldly person or item. Reality in this complicated world is too difficult for us to contend with so we keep on creating escape routes to keep reality at bay.
Lomir...
"The Sverer beat Lubavitch any day of the week!"
whats your hangover with Skver it is the same with Ziedel Krechnifer and the Premishlaner too, it is a fact that the whole of Lubavich from reb Yoel to reb Milech Tzvibel want to join Krechnif,Skver and Premishlan. and will not get accepted, maybe our Lomir has some pull
with Yosef 718 logic
I will conclude that chassidus is a wall to wall cult, taking a orthodox group to change the Nusach that was said for close to thousand years in Ashkenaz, and cutting out all the piutim in most of Poland, the whole Zidichover school, and Visnitz till the midlife of Reb Yisrolche.
Gevezener
"wine and spirit maivin"
I follow you on everything, but on this one
"From the Tosher's ring to Ifjan"?
Wedding ring?
Telephone ring?
Boxing ting?
Ring Lardner?
Ifjan? Leader of Iran?
The Belzer is a great person.Despite Gevezener Belzers rantings.
Great people feel quite lonely, you make it sound like an insult.
Belz,alive and kicking is quitea miracle.A self contained Kehilla, that has everything a kehilla needs from soup to nuts.Even so,Belz is very much part of the Yiddishe velt.
Is Belz and the Belzer perfect??
No!
If you find any perfect person or community, let me know!!
Ifjan should be "Afjen"
he's a Yemenite Kabbalist who has lots of Hungarian Chassidim. Go figure.
Feivel:
"The Belzer is a great person.Despite Gevezener Belzers rantings"
Gevezener wasn't ranting. He made some logical arguments.Please respond to his actual analysis of a sad lonely orphan who was crowned rebbe with an affinity towards everything unusual.
Together with the fact that Heimishe yiddelach dont have much of a lexicon and are enamored by anything out of the box
Apologies to Gevezener for the racial profiling.
Zvi is impressed with the music in Belz. What does that prove?
Skvere is an obvious mess to the naked eye. It should also be discussed. Belz is not so obvious. Open minded Rebbe, beautiful chassidus, feiner yingeleit, Hidabroot and other things that have been delineated by previous commenters. The rot is on the underbelly and not visible to the untrained eye. It looks like fun the singing and the swaying. It's really interesting to see how Gevazener gets attacked by outsiders who know not of what they talk and criticize him because he is upsetting their aligned universe.
The aloofness of the average Belzer yingerman is breathtaking. They blooz that Belz has the shenste moisdos the mist chassidishe yingeleit with the finest midos. Fiction.
Is Gevezener a gevezener in spirit or he actually left the fold?
Possibly, the Rebbe who had no youth just yearns for his Rosebud.
i saw the natanya rebbis drasha for ushpizin de yosef...mammash brilliant and original...he answers many kashas with 1 answer...we don't keep tradition..ie r kluger...very recomended...
anon 6-52...u left out the most serious...akdamos
"Zvi is impressed with the music in Belz. What does that prove?"
Nothing.
The rest of your comment is the same stuff the freiyeh say about all the frimmeh, and anti-semites say about all Yidden.
What raised my eyebrows a bit was you calling the average Belzer "aloof".Your writing, without knowing you of course, would get many people calling you things a bit worse.
Belzer yingehleit are very similar to most other people, some are wonderful some aloof some arrogant etc.
A bit surprising that you attack Belz on a Lubavitch blog as feeling that they are "better"
You maywant to look into Lubavitch a bit and do some analysis.....
One of their sayings is "Inzereh ziburis iz beser fin zeyereh idis"
Look it up andget back here
Tziki ..
since when do chasidim have a mesorah? the sanzer Rov did not have his fathers mesora,the Shinever Rov did not have his fathers mesora, the Stropkover Rov did not have his fathers mesorah, the Klausenburger rov changed every week his mesora... I am not saying it in a negative way... they were changing according to their degree in avdus hashem.
By Reb Shamshon Refoel Hirsch they kept the mesora in custom only, but not in hashkofa, his hashkofa had no mesora in German charadie Jewry which is Reb Yonasan Eibshutz,the Hafloah, the Noda Beyehuda.
This whole Belzer talmid chachomim fact is a myth,they have 12 dayonim in BP and one or two in Monsey, but that does not mean 14 geonim,their is one real Talmud Chochem from the bunch that is outstanding Rav Ekstien, and the rest is average shbeavreage, the same is in Israel. The Skverer also created dayonim and some of them are nice tamidie chachomim. Think about it, the biggest poskim from the new genaration in the Ir Hatorah Benai Berak are 2 Visnitzers,Rav Klien and Rav Stern,
It is a myth that people are trapped in
Anon 10:58
I happen to know R'Usher Eckstein and he is a fine talmid chuchem.He also speaks fluent English as a result of his upbring in the Litvishe Manchester Yeshiva and knows a velt about kashrus.
Rav Gross is a major talmid chuchem.
The others I don't know very well, but Belz has the shem of having some of the finest talmidei chachumim
Kopishnitz
"but Belz has the shem of having some of the finest talmidei chachumim"
you are correct it has the "Shem"
Anon:11:24
Rebbes and their greatness are not quantifiable.Unless they leave or discuss Torieh where what they say can be analyzed.
Examples:The Lubavitcher,Klausenburger, spoke and wrote divrei Torah, and this can be analyzed.Other rebbes did not and can not be objectively quantified.
On the other hand a Talmid chochom is someone that can be asked and judged.M'ken ehm oontappen.
Belzer talmidei chachumim are out there for all to see.It's not a "shem".
"Shem" is for rebbes and "banshakim"
Oh. now I know why the founder of Chasidos was the Bal SHEM
@Feivel: I'm not looking for perfection but I could do with some honesty. 100% may be too much in the state we're in and I'd settle for say 50-60%.
In the Belzer's case he has created his own polemical mouthpiece for his not very original ideas and to malign his foes, he distorts or ignores history at his whim (though, to his credit, Or Hatzofen is a welcome correction) and generally does a rather good job at blowing his own trumpet.
But it goes only so far. He may be in tune with the in-yer-face chareidi zeitgeist a la Shafran, Rosenblum and the Mishpacha crowd, but in more heimishe circles he he is viewed as suspect, if not an object of derision. And look at his courting of Satmar to see how much he craves for approval of just that crowd.
Anyhow, after years of spinning some realignment is badly called for and a blast in the opposite direction won't do any harm. While he indeed has many qualities ask yourself what the consequences would be if I revealed my id. The answer should tell you quite a bit about Belz and the world we live in.
"While he indeed has many qualities ask yourself what the consequences would be if I revealed my id. "
Your giving yourself way to much credit.
If you want,Lubavitch has openings for paranoids and people who have very overblown views of themselves.
The Belzer couldn't give a rats a** about who you are
Feivel
please stop showing us all how little you know about the Belzer Rebbe. He cares about every single person in his shul/community, but only if he steps outta line.
Anonymous,
Ferd
You won't even take a name.
You've really convinced me of what you know.
Nothing!
You sound like you are from the trouble maker yechi crew.
Take care of what's going there before you open your big mechila here
what's with all the nivel Peh?
you sound like you have a temper issue. Ask around, ask some older people than your 24 years, what happened when he took over, how he threw out every guy he suspected of not being 1000% "loyal" to him.
Then rinse out your keyboard and get back to us.
That was for Feivel, btw.
"trouble maker Yechi crew"
haha. very cute.
Now everybody that criticizes the Belzer is a Lubavitcher??
The idea that he has more talmidei chachomim or people of ability than other movements may be a myth though I would not be surprised if based on unscientific, anecdotal evidence that were found to be the case. And here I turn to his qualities.
If there is one point for which I would call him a genius it is at talent spotting. Chasidim of course may see it as an insult as it implies that the gadluth is not his but of his protégés. But that not withstanding he has shown time and again a knack for choosing people and encouraging or appointing them to positions in which they have thrived.
Eichler as court polemicist, Pinches and Aron Friedman as public speaker and shrink respectively, Breier as composer, Yidel Hershkowitz for Alim Litrifo, the editors of Or Hatzofen for this latest venture, Mechel Halberstam and Kupferstein as agitators, Shimen Volf Klein as fundraiser (and spender) for the Beis Hamedrash, Ahron Ostreicher as architect and the list goes on.
We could argue about the qualities of the above individual but it is undeniable they have each thrived despite the very limited opportunities in the chareidi sphere. And this is thanks in large measure to his nurturing and encouragement. I know of yungeleit who approach him that they want to publish a sefer, or ask him about studying and that he personally encourages them and keeps on enquiring how they're getting on.
Critics might also say, with ample justification, that it is often a case of trial and error and that he has made plenty mistakes along the way. Damen as menahel of the Yerusholayim talmud torah is a particularly egregious example. But that mustn't detract from the fact that he encourages people, explicitly or implicitly and by example to push at the boundaries in ways that others don't. His cynicism and independent spirit also filter through so that those with initiative and ambition will be inspired by him to find the courage to pursue their desired vocation.
And if they turn to him for support he will fulfil that role with alacrity. This is why committed chareidim but with novel ideas swear by him because he is so open and welcoming and genuinely interested. At the same time, however, it is mostly as a hoiroas yochid rather than as a revolutionary, and despite his control and ability he has not introduced any much needed reforms into his educational institutions.
Let me end by saying that yours truly is also a beneficiary of this contrarianism though he has taken it significantly further than that which would merit his blessing.
Genig gezogt.
Gevezener Belzer is bebchinas "malach ru ba'al korchoi yaaneh umain"
I"m not a Belzer.I"m still fascinated by the Belzer, who got a chassidus small in size ,decimated by the Holocaust and zeitgeist and nursed back to amazing health all across the globe! This at the tender age of 18.
Gevezener Belzer has taynes that he was not enough of a "mechadesh".Uh hu.Can he show me any other rebbe who stayed in the Chareidy world who has been more independent?
Who took on the Eida Hachareidis and Satmar?
Who decided to go with the Litvackes during the elections?
Who has a liberal, left leaning worldview????
The problem with many of the naysayers is their expectation for a "perfect man ",just like THEIR rebbe (in their eyes obviously, not anything in reality)
The Belzer is a great speaker and big talmid chuchem.
Belz is the number three chassides after Satmar and Ger (lubavitch not included in this equation for obvious reasons).
I'm not sure why "taking on" Satmar and the Edah is such a big deal.
Feivel, we realize you hate Satmar AND Lubavitch, but the fact that he "took on" Satmar doesn't make him into some kind of Lawrence of Arabia.
I don't hate Satmar.
Lubavitch I have rachmunes on.It's totally lost it's marbles and Yiddishkait
we see what kind of "rachmunes" you have on them...
I don't rechen with Lubavitch at all
Their positions are so beyond normal that they are "einoi mishnah"
I"m truly sorry for them
they're truly sorry for you too. Actually they're sorry for your parents, your wife, your siblings and your children. Your business partners and chavrusas as well. Not to mention the people on the bus and train next to you and anybody that mans a cash register at a checkout lane that you frequent.
in addition to:
your
mechanic
accountant
lawyer
doctor
dentist
and the list goes on...
you see? we can also play this game :-)
no hard feelings, btw
nothing personal either
Formely,
If you are not yourself a Lubavitcher, I find it hard to believe that an objective person would not agree with my sentiment.
When was the last time you were in 770?
Even if 770 does not represent ALL of Lubavitch there are some serious problems with reality.
I don't know if you noticed but even the non meshichist Lubavitchers do generally refer to the Rebbe without a "zatzal"
I have no reason to go there, other than for a relative's wedding, etc. (s'gesheynt in di shenste mishpooches...) But I have been there several times, and I know what you're referring to
but please realize that Lubavitch is not cookie cutter like Belz and Satmar is. They have Jews from a countless number of backgrounds. They also had a whole generation that was cut off from Yiddishkeit in the FSU, running from one underground cheder to the next. They weren't learning in Toshnad with 400 bachurim...
Having said that they look just fine considering that their Rebbe, zt"l, passed away 16 years ago.
Why would their Rebbes passing affect if they are fine or not?
Unless you are surprised that theycan manage or alone
The reality is that
They don't EVEN look fine
But if you want to gribel a bit, there is major war in C.Heights,mesiros,back stabbing etc...
Belz is gan eden in comparison.
It's time they got a new rebbe and became normal.
On a personal issue:Did you ever try and have a conversation with your average Lubavitcher?
It is so exasperating.It's always about "Rebbe this, Rebbe that,Chabad this Chabad that".It would be impossible to try and discuss Belz with them for example.They have no idea and no interest about other Rabunim or groups.
Sometimes I am bored enough to read their websites and see just how clueless about other kreizen they are.On top of all that they afre always trying to "convert " you to their meshigassen.
Sad
major wars? puh-leez. That's child's play compared to the others.
They're obsessed with preaching Chabad, yes, we all know that. But that's in their DNA, they've been doing that for 200+ years.
@Feivel, I shouldn't be debating with you following your foul outbursts and your generalisations despite knowing nothing about me. But here goes for the last time to you and you can then go and chap lechtige fish and be spoon fed with his fish yoch.
No one argues that he is a shrewd operator or that he is a good CEO but that is not the issue. Many of his achievements deserve R' Shimen Bar Yochai's comments on the Romans. And as for the achievements on your list let's take them one by one.
Taking on Satmar: Yes it was brave and especially at his then age but he paid a price from which he has not recovered and in the long term the gains are not that great. His hechsher is a joke and he is a pariah in many circles. According to rumor hot er zikh gemitshet oyf shidichim and ended up with the makover, the antithesis of everything he stands for.
Getting into bed with the Litvaks: Well he fell out with them and again it got him nothing. Actually his political shenanigans show him to be a loser on a grand scale once he moves beyond his sphere of control which doesn't extend much beyond Dover Sholem.
Liberal left-leaning worldview: Dos hot mir gekost a lach. Other than advocating trading land for peace, which he's quietly dropped of late, where pray is the left-leaning liberalism? In dedicating shteiedike toires to hats on sheitels? In saying at shteiedike toire that the more money you can wring out of the fraye the merrier? In the rampant corruption that would make him an eligible candidate for any banana republic? In his tin-pot dictatorship? In his 3 and a bit homes? In his foreign vacations and grandiose trips? In ransacking the gemachs for his '82 trip to the US? In handing his only son, whom he can barely stand, into the hands of some shvants?
Come on, you tell me of a single reform in his yeshivos that is a nod to liberalism or a leftist world view. His yungeleit wonder about aimlessly from tfile to tish to lekech in bronfn because Mr Oifgeklert spends his time in his room with mizrachi leaders, and ambasadors, and Mayor Koch, and TV cameras but left his tzoyn kodoshim to queue up for a shtikl lekech and yell meh! noch in noch hecher.
So go on, put your kids into this cultish system and kid yourself they'll be studying Foucault and Derrida instead of endlessly mulling over his dreary hour long toires and in years to come they will ask with the yoshvishe nisech, vos vet zan der tachlis; vos vet zan der sof?
Gevezener
I got the gist
YOU would love to play the game as a rebbe.You think you coulddo a better job than he does.
Maybe.You have at least convinced yourself
The Belzer has convinced many thousands.
He is way of the game
Btw, your beneath contempt attack at his relationship with his son, shows a whole lot about you
You are one arrogant leidig gayer.
And I"m not even a Belzer
The innovation at this year's shteidige toura is Yachdov. To create chevras of 10 people. This is for men and women. To discuss any issues that arise gashmius and ruchniyos. This is group control and peer pressure to conform. Can someone refuse to join? How can the others be trusted not to discuss your issue? What happens if you have a crisis in faith, would you discuss it with the group? Is this a sign of megalomania?
Belz supposedly suffers from "meglomania"
What would you call a group that calls their leader Nosi Hador?
Jus askin'
Former Anon
"They weren't learning in Toshnad with 400 bachurim."
a Jew that from the russian gulag is not less talmid chohem then a toshnader talmid, I know 1 talmid chchoem from that all yeshiva and thats it. The Rov was a Talmid Chochem as you see in his teshuvos but as most Hungarian Yeshivahs had no sense of creating a real cadre of Talmidie Chachomim, Erlich Yiden they were but talmidie chachomim shvach
Fievel
"I"m not a Belzer.I"m still fascinated by the Belzer, who got a chassidus small in size ,decimated by the Holocaust and zeitgeist and nursed back to amazing health all across the globe! This at the tender age of 18."
Its a other myth with the Belzer, Belz after the war should of and could of be bigger then Satmar ten fold, As a chasidus it was the most known Chasidus to every ungarusher yid,it is the closest to their style and culture,very serious all the time,the day of Purim was ungeshtrengt as Tisha Beov or Yon kippur you can choose. Belz did not ask from Chasidim more then learning Tur Bies Yossef. In the meantime he came in as Rebbe as a maniac/ Dochek es a Ketz. bullied all alte chasidim that were breathing Belz all their life, for no good reason. If he would be a son of a Rebbe and knew his Father or Uncle hechrashti, but in his situation he should show some humility for a yid like the Rosh Yeshiva Reb Sholem that the Chazon Ish was behispalous of his gadlus. He had to reliaze that he has noting what to sell for alot of these chasidim and behave till you win their hearts.In the meantime he and his goons with the leadership of Yankel Brauner (then he was 1 of the henchman for the new regime) figured out a way how to beat the hell out of the old chassidim, If I remember correctly the holy Rov left to Switzerland and Yankel B threw a Chaid on the old Rosh. I dont need all the analysis of the Gevezener, but thats for sure, whoever believes that he is a Rebbe and A Belzer Rebbe I can vouch that he and his parents were never at the Mount Sina of chassidus.
Fievel
why are you stooping to below the belts insults?
Do you know how many people were turned off from Belz because of his megalomaniac shul? and worse then that his 3 story stone Mcmansion for 1 couple with 1 boy? His father in law the Visnitser has a nice shul built by old Visnitzer Gevirin in the US and europe, 70% of this massive edifice is blood money as the rulers from congo and kenya. How many chasanim could he marry off in Yeryshliem for this vast sum of money and still have a decent looking shul like his Father in Law? They were harrasing new couples that their parents married them off with no bedrooms even to donate to his massive edifice? Btw, if you know Belz you would know that the Rebiem in their private life were very Anti Malchus. Reb Yisocher Dov did not want for his son the shiduch with Radomsk for the reason of too much money.
We all got side-tracked here.
We are talking about Kluger, not #$%^&*&^*%&^Belzer!
First of all, none of the mfursomim shel sheker had hundreds of empty seats THIS year- there were only 200 people with Kluger in Uman from 10's of different places. They are scared for future- this is true.
Second of all, they are picking on Kluger, because they found what to blackmail him with- and there is what. I f they could of , they would of done the same to Reb Mottel Silber, Reb Tzvi Meyer, Reb Moshe Wolfson etc.long time ago- they just do not have enough schoire.
Third off all, Reb Tzvi Meir quotes a LOT in Breslov and Chabad sforim, so is Reb Mottel Silber who gives a weekly shiur in Likutei Mohoran and is busy with Rashab's maimorim .
No , no , no . We must be mamshich the Belz shmiz. Shtending, Tumid , Alle Mool, Ach Ve'Rak Belz.
My soul really thirsts for a few historical aspects of Belz.
1. Why did RYB go to Ratzferd in WWI?
2. Was there any overlap between RYB and RSL Halberstam, any contact between them?
3. Why did the Chasidim roidef Bilgreier Ruv?
4. Any truth to any rumors that they hastened his demise in any way?
5. Did alte Chasidim hate der Hayntige because of who his father was?
Please , please ich bayt eich
Kluger Misnaged
"and is busy with Rashab's maimorim "
I read all his torah and never saw a quote of the Rebbe reshab?
the other tzadik, Morgenstern quotes all the rebiem of Chabad including the last one.
Ingerisher/Galitzaner/Belzer
are you writing a doctorate on that subject?
Reb Ingerishe, It's never too late to start a blog or forum on the subject. Belz is not too well represented in the cybervelt.
As to your questions, I'll deal with 1, 3, 4 and 5.
1. loit vi ich farshtey because he was driven out of Munkatsh and needed a base before he could return to Belz, however I stand to be corrected.
3. The alte Belzers will say because he was 'modern', which may be true compared to the primitiveness of Reb Ahron, while the new Belzers contend that he tried to prevent corruption in his brother's hoif.
In truth it's probably a bit of both. Remember the Belzers were and still are a farbisene bunch. The Bilgoraye's mother, whom he did not share with Reb Ahron, was more modern and the female quarters of RYB's hoif after her arrival were not quite nusach Belz.
His thinking was also on a more 'modern' footing, he was a prolific writer as well as a talented speaker. You can see his son in his shameless, infamous speech in Budapest which Belz today has spun out of the historical record altogether.
There are also stories about Chaim Shloime Friedman being caught in some act in Budapest and the Bilgorayer tried to keep him at a distance as a result. CSF and his cronies then paid him back. By the way those included Hilel Vind whose children without exception all hold positions from gabe to dayen to lesser postions.
4. Difficult to say. He died of cancer but they did not make his life easy. He also did not get on with his wife so that wouldn't have helped.
5. Not a shred of doubt though er hot zechis atzmoy oich!
The big kashe in all of this is where was Reb Ahron and why did he not stand up for his brother? I think this explains the Rov's ambivalence to his uncle and to the whole alte Belz. The poor guy was brought up to revere and lead a movement that killed the father he never knew. This is Shakespearean stuff!
ich zog shoin lang that a book on this complex character is long overdue.
halevai volt ich ge'halten bei a Doktorat vegen Belz
but your detailed responses only whet my appetite further
1. why Ratzfert? when did RSLH come there, wasnt it before RYB? What was yachas of RYB and ME (Minchas Eluzer)? How long was RYB in Munkatch? I think that RYB didn't return to Belz til '25-'26, shortly before his Petirah.
2. Two such great and outspoken personalities in a small city at the same time, and not a peep?
3. Who is Chaim Shloime Friedman , I never heard his name growing up.
4. Why so many vicious rumors about Bilgreyer's death?
5.Re: R' Aron sticking up for his brother, there are 2 possibilities
a. R' Aron had no idea what was going on around him in general , and certainly not politish
b. Belzer Chasidim had no problem with redifus of anyone, They knew better about protecting the Rebbe's kuvod than the Rebbe himself (this kind of omniscience is a Machleh in many other Chasidus'en).
Toyreh hi , Ve'Lilmoid Ani Tzurech
Belz and Skwere are underrepresented in cybervelt.
Gevezener, you are speaking in tongues.
Who were the two wives of RYB?
What is the content of the shameless, infamous Budapest speech?
Who was Chaim Shloime friedman?
What act did he commit?
Who was Hillel Vind? Who are is eyniklech?
How are we supposed to have this information in Peoria?
Belz is 4,972 miles from Peoria.
Before the War started, the Belzer Rebbe had told a Polish family in the
process of fleeing to Palestine that they need not leave Europe. Many
years later, the rebbe, now safe in Palestine, met the head of the same
family who had settled in Tzfas, and admitted he had made a mistake
(which “pained him”) by not encouraging all his Chassidim to leave
Europe earlier. He later confided in others that he wished he had followed
the example of the Vilna Gaon, and the Chofetz Chaim who encouraged
groups of Jews to leave Europe and move to Palestine a hundred
years earlier, thus saving their descendants, and descendants’ descendants.
When Rabbi Aharon Rokeach, the Belzer Rebbe, was asked to pray
for Divine intervention to halt the Holocaust, he refused, explaining
that whatever was happening was G-d’s decree “[i.e., bashert] and
nothing can be done [by us].
In
1954, Rebbetzin Halberstam’s heart-breaking lament was published
in Bleter far Geschichte, a scholarly periodical in Warsaw.
“I am witnessing the end of Hungarian Jewry. The [Hungarian]
government enabled large parts of the communities to escape. The
Jews asked the Chassidic rabbis what to do and they always calmed
them down. The Belzer Rebbe said that in Hungary we would get
away with mere anxiety. Now the bitter moment has come when
Jews can no longer save themselves.
www.hakirah.org/Vol%209%20Bobker.pdf
fed up:
you need to read up, not expect all your answers here! ( not that I mind if someone takes the time )
But please! I won't allow this thread to became a platform to attack the holy Reb Aron of Belz zt"l
Anonymous,
lOOKS LIKE YOU DID NOT READ ALL HIS TOIRE :)
Hershele,
And what is the difference between Satmar Rebbe and Belzer Rebbe? I guess you understand their both madreigos....
if you don't mind if people are going to take the time to answer my questions, why the attack on my questions? Am I taking up precious space on your blog?
Kluger misnaged is right, why is the Belzer holy and not the Satmarer?
I'm starting to understand your detractors.
attack? where do you see an attack?
I'm beginning to see why you're so fed up...
כו"ע מודו that the BR is out of bounds. And besides, what does the thread have to do with the BR's supposed view on whether the Holocaust would come to Hungary??
Also, why quote secularists with agendas against Frum Jews in particular?
"fed up:
you need to read up, not expect all your answers here!"
That's not attack? Why can't i expect answers? If someone wants to answer let them answer. If no one answers then I won't get answers.
There are many that read this this blog that do not understand the insiders code. All I asked what was for someone to shed some light.
"Rebbetzin Eva Halberstam of Kosice, the
widow of Rabbi Avraham Shalom Halberstam, the famous “miracle
rabbi of Stropkov” who was murdered in 1940, bitterly criticizes the
rabbis who fled their families and communities"
The Stropkover's wife was a secularist?
You didn't read the article.
Coming soon
theantitzig.com
Peoria 1,139 miles from Monsey
you threatening me on my own blog?!
The Belzer rebbes were not virginal. Their empire building struck fear in the hearts of other Galicianer Rebbes. The chasidim were marauding hooligans.You need to read up on it. Reb Yoelish wasn't the first to use these tactics.
Lighten up
I see
next time then don't bombard the readers with 20 questions at at time. Break them up.
"Also, why quote secularists with agendas against Frum Jews in particular?"
I have no part in these silly attacks on Belz a rebbe who I look up to, what caught my eye is your sudden turnaround where you won't quote people with "agendas"
Vekahn habein shoiel:
You whole blog is built on one sided agendas. From your publishing one sided attacks by R'S Carlebach of CB,your publishing one sided attacks and outright lies about what happened in Shanghai, your "babbeh maaseh" heard from the lubob eyneekel about the source of R'BB's name etc etc.
What gives?
"The Belzer rebbes were not virginal. Their empire building struck fear in the hearts of other Galicianer Rebbes. The chasidim were marauding hooligans.You need to read up on it. Reb Yoelish wasn't the first to use these tactics."
If you already want to go there, then Chasidim bichlal acted like hooligans.In fact in a short time the machloikes, between Misnagdim and Chasidim quieted down.Then, Chasidim got down to real business ,tearing each other to bits!!!
The machloikes between various chasidic hoyf'n was much, much worse than Misnagdim vs Chasidim.
V'kol kach lumo?
Because the chasidim attracted the lowest ignorant class,while the Misnagdim were generally the intelligentsia, not used to the "sword", not coarse enough to get down and dirty and brawl like po'ers
Some of the comments (not those about Rav Kluger) might be better off here :
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2010/04/blog-post_13.html
"Also, Belz has a succession problem which is starting to rear its ugly head."
The problem is even with the dor haShishi , or only with the dor haShviyi having more than one possibility ?
Belz will not be intact after survive Dor hashishi.
"I have no part in these silly attacks on Belz a rebbe who I look up to, what caught my eye is your sudden turnaround where you won't quote people with "agendas""
The machloikes between various chasidic hoyf'n was much, much worse than Misnagdim vs Chasidim.
V'kol kach lumo?
Because the chasidim attracted the lowest ignorant class,while the Misnagdim were generally the intelligentsia, not used to the "sword", not coarse enough to get down and dirty and brawl like po'ers
Everyone should stop the attacks because you look up to him.That is interesting. And who are you exactly besides an anonymous commenter? Tzig looks up to LR, the attacks don't stop.
We all see that you are ok with your own agenda.
@Ingerishe
I often wonder if R' Sholem Eleizerl was a truly great personality or was it simply because he was born to the Tzanzer in old age and so lived 2 or 3 generations later by when the Tzanser had entered into legend, plus he lived in Hungary. I can't think whose son would have to be alive in Williamsburg today for a comparison but you get the gist.
Chaim S Friedman published a war memoir 'ich vel zei iberlebn' which I believe has been translated by Feldhiem or such like. I believe he was with Reb Ahron in the Bochnia Ghetto and he joined him again in Budapest. He lived in Antwerp after the war and was one of the fierce misnagdim.
I am sure the rumors about B's death were helped a great deal by the later opposition to his son. Those spinning for the son could, did and do say, the misnagdim are a bunch of thugs and look what they did to his father. Er iz oich nisht shildig geblibn and the equalising title of 'achim hakdoishim' when the story of their rescue is narrated jars in their throats.
As to R' Ahron's silence, I don't know what to say. Apparently it was his idea that his brother be buried in Teveria which even today is the equivalent of nowheresville and must have been much more so in those days.
R' Ahron was a broken man after the war. He had lost quite literally everything and was left with no one but an ambitious brother. He asked his brother to join him when escaping from the nazis so he must have realised his qualities but it may be that once they arrived in EY old rivalries resurfaced.
I would also say, as strange as it may sound, R' Ahron had more in common with many chasidishe leaders with a mizrachi bent in his love of Israel which extended to limud zechus for everyone, while the B was more of a chareidi in the Aguda style and you can clearly see where his son is coming from.
As to dor shishi/shvi'i, my hunch is that the shishi will suffer from Machnovke since he apparently has an able son while the shishi has not shown any great promise. On the one occasion he took a stand to kick out the pope rov's stender in Montreal he showed himself to have his father's thuggishnes with none of the flair. In another incident he asked his uncle Ahron T vegn zan zeide R' Yoilish. AT replied ersht is er nisht man zeide in tzveitens is er der satmarer rov in nisht R' Yoilish.
As for the shvi'i well there is a whole brigand of sons so why should they be any different to others. The second Belzer was not the eldest so any usurper will claim to have history on his side too.
A more interesting question is whether one of the shvi'is will challenge the shishi. Apparently his second son, who just had bar mitzveh, has some of his grandfather in him so he may yet challenge his father for the crown. His older brother stupidly kissed his younger brother's hand nusach viznitz at the latter's bar mitzve so chasidim will surely find a remez in it.
It's a shame Belz has hardly been touched upon by non chasidish writers. Asaf's article on the letter from RYD's son in law is an eye opener. The new Belzer monthly, Or Hatzofen is also a good source of material though naturally with a chanyokishe kneitsh.
Just to add to the succession problem, Satmar after R' Yoilish showed that you don't need a contender to have a succession problem. Anyone coming after a strong leader must either be capable of standing in his predecessor's shoes or be able to deal with desertions.
Ger after the BY would have been like that but R SB was a harmless fellow and caused no resentment so it sailed on smoothly. The Beirach Moishe on the other hand was a full blown twit and a coarse one at that and kik vos er hot ibergelozt.
gevezener
the "twit" comment about the Beirach Moyshe comes from being a Gevezener Belzer?
R' Hirshl, you think he was a chochom mechukem? Aderabe, I stand to be corrected.
He may have been successful in business, at least so they said when he took over, but the few of his speeches I heard were far from pearls of wisdom. And I have yet to hear anything sensible repeated in his name. But anyway, it seems you agree on the 'coarse' so we're not miles apart.
considering he had others do his dirty work (FLOABT) for him I'm not sure we can even agree on the coarse part of it!
veDal.
I would love a blog devoted to Belz only, but I dont have the Bretie Pleitzes to be soivel the achriyes of all the niderige Loshen Hora Rechiles Moitze Shem Rah U'Chedoimeh from both gegener and gevezener
As an aside, anyone know of Galitzianer calling themselves "Geshtroofte" , in a self-deprecating way
http://yizkor.nypl.org/index.php?id=2797
go to image 126
Hirshel is family with the Sigheter.
http://belz.wordpress.com/
Does this picture exist?
Why I am a Chasid of the Belzer Rebbe
By Guest Contributor, on March 12th, 2008
by Rabbi Ron Yitzchok Eisenman, Kehillas Ahavas Yisrael, Passaic NJ
Rav Yitzchak Halevi Herzog the Chief Rabbi of then Palestine, was personally and intimately involved in securing the Rebbe’s arrival in Eretz Yisrael as the British controlled the keys to the gates of Eretz Yisrael back then. Rav Herzog spared no effort to obtain the necessary documents to get the Rebbe to the land of Israel. When the Rebbe finally reached Damascus in 1944 and was about to complete the final leg of the journey, Rav Herzog was leaving the land to try to save the Jews in Europe. Rav Herzog detoured to Damascus to first greet the Rebbe. The Rebbe, who in order to insure his safety, was clean shaven and wearing non-Chassidic- Western type clothing, allowed, as a sign of gratitude, Rav Herzog’s son Chaim to be photographed with him. This was the only time the Rebbe allowed himself to be photographed with a clean shaven face.
A few years later, when the Rebbe, who had lost his first wife and all of his children in the inferno that engulfed Europe, remarried, he insisted that Chief Rabbi Herzog officiate at the wedding. Reb Aharele of Belz was not a Religious Zionist as Rav Herzog was and represented; however, he was a religious Yid, and he knew that Hakaras HaTov (gratitude) cuts across ideological boundaries and therefore Rav Herzog was the one the Belzer Rebbe charged with officiating at his wedding.
When this incident became known to me, I was moved to great wonder and esteem of this man and his Chassidus.
However, that is not why I am a Chassid of the Rebbe of Belz.
The Rebbe, Reb Aharele, had no more children. His younger brother, Reb Mordechai who also managed to escape with him, also remarried in Israel after the war. Although Reb Mordechai died young in 1949 at the age of 47, he did have one son with his second wife; that son, who was named Yissachar Dov and was born in 1948, would eventually succeed his uncle Reb Aharele, as the next Belzer Rebbe when his uncle died in the 1957.
Rav Yissachar Dov, the present Belzer Rebbe, was childless for quite a while. After almost ten years of marriage he was privileged to have his one and only child, a son named Mordechai.
http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/03/12/why-i-am-a-chasid-of-the-belzer-rebbe/
What this guy is saying that:
i am a chosid of the rebbe of Belz because he has a bris... SO WHAT????
That a rebbe has regular persons feeling it is a gadlus??
STUPID ARTICLE
say what you want about RSLH, but look at his shver and 2 eideme's , RBZ Bobover, and the Atzei Chaim. Pretty impressive.
WanderingJew said: "1) Rebelled against Satmar"
Your #1 Belzer accomplishment “He Rebelled against Satmar” We have seen how that worked out with his מחילה spread out from rechov Agrifas in Jerusalem to rechov Satmar Dr. in Monroe NY With accomplishments like that who needs failure!
"The Rebbe, who in order to insure his safety, was clean shaven"
"Rav Herzog’s son Chaim to be photographed with him. This was the only time the Rebbe allowed himself to be photographed with a clean shaven face."
Yitzchok Eisenman Re-Gargling Abraham Cooper's trash the dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, who wrote that "his god died in Siget" עפ"ל writing As why he became a Belzer! Was actually the end of old Belz as we knew it!
הר"ר ישכר דוב מבעלז, ובנו ז"ל who where the forefront warriors against photos of people! Not to mention haskalah! Photographed himself! With the son of the chief rabbi of Dublin and Palestine? the successor of kook! What a hakoros tov! - how about giving him a blessing instead? - Where was his hakaras tov for the SR! Who rescued R”A z”l single handedly the SR z"l did it thru chilul shabous!!! When he was captured by the Hungarians and imprisoned there!
The modern belz of today המהפך קערה על פיה build on haksala and frum zionisim! מי פלל ומי מלל that this Belz would be considered the model of chasidus by some, who כשר'ט השרצים של השכלה וציונות בק"ן טעמים as an accomplishment!
A little known secret that the first time SR z”l met the Belzer ruv in israel after WWII he asked him: how come he cut his beard?! Maybe that was the beginning of the down fall of-belz-fin-amol vd"l
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