Sunday, October 24, 2010

Rebbes running scared (Part I)

There's a new star in town, and he shines a bit too bright for some people. His name is Reb Avrohom Tzvi Kluger. He's the head of the Nezer Yisroel chaburah in Ramat Beit Shemesh. He fuses Chabad and Breslov and comes up with a very unique brand of Chassidus, one that is very attractive to hundreds of yungeleit. Most of those yungeleit are members of other groups, such as Belz, Toldos, Vizhnitz, Sanz(-Klausenberg), and so on. Most of those Rebbes are quite unhappy about this phenomenon, namely that he's siphoning off yungeleit from them. This hasn't really been expressed until recently, when some 150 yungeleit traveled with him to Uman for Rosh Hashonoh, some of them without complete wife consent. There are conflicting reports as to what happened next, but most reports agree on the fact that several yungeleit and their families were unceremoniously sent flying. Their families means that the little ones were chucked from the mosdos as well. This has brought the chaburah to the forefront, and a major discussion of what happens there and whether or not they should be put miChutz L'Tchum is going on all over the web.


page 1 of a recent quasi-Pashkevil against him


page 2 includes quotes from Rebbes as well as other Chassidisen

I must tell you I'm surprised at the reaction, even though I understand what makes them uneasy. If there's one thing Rebbes don't like it's losing members. They may not go around and proselytize, but they want the numbers to go up, at least natural growth. Losing families is never a good thing. Chabad was always - at least in America - an easy target, maybe since there was never a worry that one day they'll have to meshadech with them, since the Rebbe had no kids... OK, scratch that thought. But Chabad was distant, you didn't feel guilty about attacking them at Shalisheedes Toyreh. But to call out a group and bash them for over an hour during an Ushpizin tish, which is what the Sanzer Rebbe from Natanya did, is downright peculiar. Why bring attention to a group that is seemingly no different than you are? They look just like you, which means that yungerman has no problem being seen there. There's nothing inherent that would keep him from going and seeing what's so terrible there. Which means that you're basically shooting yourself in the foot here.

105 comments:

Anonymous said...

I had an opportunity to see him in action, this summer. Let me tell you this, it's about time these "rebbes" started to focus on their chasidim instead of on themselves. This R' Kluger is only about his chasidim. He brings them, his methods notwithstanding, to a much higher level in avdus HasHem than their regular rebbes ever bothered to even try. Or perhaps are even caapble of doing. If I were a rebbe I would also be quaking in my shoes. It's a good wake up call, and instead of bashing him, the should try to at least equal him.

Anonymous said...

I dont know anything about him personaly but if what i heard is thrue in regards what he said that you dont have to say on rosh hashanah unsaneh tokef because it brings Atzvus you shoud skip it , that to me is a littel over the edge.

Anonymous said...

First of all, saying Unesneh Tokef is not medeoraysa. If he was trying to bring a point across, it's ok. R' Shamshon Refoel Hirsh, one year did not say Kol Nidrei, because he felt it gave an excuse to lie. One year was enough, and the point was made. So waht?

Anonymous said...

Can you explain what exactly hhe farchoyphing? What makes him so special? Can you (or anybody else) articulate why they are misnaged to him; what are their taynos? thank you


Moshe

Anonymous said...

Hirshel

the article that you scanned here, smells as work from Sanz/Natnya chasidim , they start off that he was a standard Bochur in Yeshva, as if the 2 Rebbes from the USA and Eretz Yisroel were extraordinary, they were both far from it. Their father had alot of aggravation on the progress of both boys. He always cried for his Lipele that was killed in Auschwitz.
What bothers me deeply from the Sanzer diatribe laced in a few Mamorie chazal is, that how can a person that is coming from a family that were pillaged and humiliated for decades for one reason only that they stood in way for some other Godul, how can he get up and spew hate and instigate against a guy that is not ready to be his Chosid, with excuse that he is different from the norm, Was his father not accused for being different then the norm? He was labeled in my town of Willi for a wife beater, It seems like Vayishman Yshurun Vayivat.... you have a little menucha for a few years you become A rodef...
I am not a Kluger Chosid at all but I can not take the way certain people are so confident that he can Yored Lechayoiv for a Yid a Oved Hashem in his way,

browser said...

why should we surprised by all this? rebbes always hated each other,and the reason is a simple one, as the saying goes '' it takes one to know one''because deep down they all knew that the rebbisteve is nothing but a nice broadway show,it is all smokes and mirrors,and above all money,money and again money,therefore the rebbe down the block is my competition who is taking away my parnassah.

CHAIM.S

Friendly Anonymous said...

Very interesting post. Maybe you can make this a regular feature of your blog for those Lubavitcher chassidim who would like a Rebbe they can talk with?

Anonymous said...

Friendly Anon,
are you really worrying for Chabad chasidim?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Friendly

please explain

on the mountain said...

I don't see anything in this whole "quasi-Pashkevil" that implicates him as anything other then a run of the mill mashpia (r' t"m,eisenberger, etc)very weird.

Anonymous said...

The message is very simple. All Peilesher and Hungarians that require a uniform dress code really are one group with no substantive differences. They are all ideologically shallow and don't have much to offer. Hence, they must obsess over trivial supercial externals such as dress codes for men that dictate proper eyeglasses and adequate modesty standards for their women.
This is in sharp contrast to Chabad and Breslov were the dress code is lax or non-existant. The main reason for this is precisely because they both have something unique to offer, ideologically, and therefore are not compelled to analyze the exterior. To put is succinctly, they prefer substance over form for the exact reason why the others must opt for form.

Subsequently, all the Peilsiher, at least theoretically, can really be all placed in one universal educational system (albeit, not without intense negotiations regarding school uniforms). Unlike Chabad and Breslau that need their own schools, in order to facilitate the transmission and inculcation of their emotianl and intelectual depth that defines them.

Furthermore, the Peilesher thrive on insulation and exclusion of their flock, because exposure to anything on the outside (especially something as genuine as Chabad and Breslov, or a hybrid) is extremely dangerous because the flock-members will eventually (or possibly) realize that they were basically living a sub-par existence as a Jew - and especially as a Chassid. This revelation, especially if it gains popularity, can lead to the destruction of an entire social structure as the populace realizes that real satisfaction and self-expression can be achived by joining Chabad or Breslau.

The American yeshivaleit should be berated for not having a Mesorah, for growing up on the Brooklyn Dodgers and BBQ's, and then masquerading as ehrlicheh yidden who care about a chshash issur. Additionally, their disdain for the Rebbe and Chabad, is because they have been fooled by hot-heated individuals who ignore the fact that the Rebbeim had gotten along with the Misnagdim for generations - especailly Reb Chaim, who once said hello to the Rebbe Rashab - and try to stir up fights that have been set aside for decades [even though they all secretely hated Chabad, and privately tried to destroy them; especially the Slobodko talmidim].
I digress. While the Bney Teyreh lack of Mesorah [translation: at their core, they really are more liberal than the Rebbe]should be held against them, this new fellow who embraces Chabad, and invented his own brand of Judaism, should be given a carte blanche. We will not examine his innovations and determine if they are precedented - possibly because that would open a glass can of worms]

Food for thought

Anonymous said...

Food for...
"and invented his own brand of Judaism, should be given a carte blanche.
not saying a certain tefila in middle om yom kippur is not considered a new brand of Judaism, dont fall in the trap of the people that are taking it out of proportion

Levy said...

I wonder what the Tzig and co. say when throngs of Lubavitcher join Rabbi Klugers chabira.Eh?
I remember the not so nice comments when Matisyahu decided he wanted to try Stolin and grew payes.
Jus' sayin'

Anonymous said...

I doubt its so simple. There are no pashkevilim against Reb Tzvi Meiyer. Maybe there is a differnce?

And you said its all the rebbes are upset, not just S-K so maybe they are on to somethin.

No idea. Just thinking

Anonymous said...

Reb Tzvi Mier is not as a powerful Rebbe with such a deep influence , as Rav Kluger, thats why the hatred is stronger. I heard Rav Kluger on Kol Haloshen (btw I heard they took him off now)he is very articulate, Reb Tzvi Mier has his unique way of bombarding you with a avalanche of seforim titles with noting that you can bring to table

Ruben said...

Rabbi Kluger should be offered the position on Eastern Parkway.

Anonymous said...

The American yeshivaleit should be berated for not having a Mesorah, for growing up on the Brooklyn Dodgers and BBQ's, and then masquerading as ehrlicheh yidden who care about a chshash issur
ochin vey. here we go again

Dovid said...

Btw,
This is copied from Bechadrei Chareidim, a black-hat site on Hydepark.

Sholom db said...

I was at the Ohel about a year ago and saw a group of about 30 to forty Williamsburg style chasidim,mostly, but also including regular Flabtush looking people sitting in the side roomand was told that it wa Rav Klugers group

Anonymous said...

I need some enlightenment. What are they scared of? Based on this quasi-pashkvil, he seems to be an "ernste" yungerman who found a derech of avoidas Hashem that appeals to a broad spectrum of people. If he picks off some of their shmetene, that's life. Provide something better and you'll get the good people from other groups.
And as a Chabad chossid from birth, he doesn't scare me. If 100 lubabs go to him, it won't bother me at all. If they are learning chassidus (any, not necessary Chabad), increasing yiras shmayim and ahavas yisroel, and being good husbands, all the power to him. If a fellow chossid finds enlightment thru him, so be it. Some idiots on this blog project their own shtussim on the Rebbe, i.e. he was only interested in how many people he can pull into 770. The Rebbe's main goal was increasing people's Torah and mitzvos, and if it is accomplished by connecting to someone like RATK, he was very satisfied. I can write dozens of stories to prove this and I'll suffice with one.

R' Shabsi Frankel, who made the "frankel Rambam" printed his seforim with a maftaichos including most modern-day seforim including the avi ezri. He b'davka left out likkutei sichos even though he was given the info. When he printed the rambam, the Rebbe sent him a beautiful letter thanking him for helping people learn rambam (this was before 5744 when the Rebbe started the daily shiur). And the Rebbe was fully aware that he left him out.

P.S. RSF was related to me and he told me this story in his office in BB.

Anonymous said...

look in all the old sipurei tzadikim maases of yingelat that left for the whole tishrei tzi zan bam rebben, tzanz too...etc...

Anonymous said...

half of ger learns tanya...

geborene said...

Anon
"and as a Chabad chossid from birth, he doesn't scare me.If 100 lubabs go to him, it won't bother me at all."

He takke shouldnt scare you and neither should you be jealous, but shouldnt 100 people deviating slightly from emes la'amito bother you?

Anonymous said...

geborene said...
Anon
"and as a Chabad chossid from birth, he doesn't scare me.If 100 lubabs go to him, it won't bother me at all."

He takke shouldnt scare you and neither should you be jealous, but shouldnt 100 people deviating slightly from emes la'amito bother you?"

I'm anon 8:07:00 PM and it won't bother me. Not everyone is zoiche to become a full fledged chossid like I am. If i convince a Jew to put on tefillin every day, and 2 yrs later he's sitting in aish learning, I've accomplished my mission. The Rebbe Rashab's kuntres avoida and kuntres u'mayon were basically student handbooks for TT. Maybe 15-20% of the bochurim in Lubavitch were shayich to that avoida. The rest were fine good frum Jews, and most remained chassidim. Not everyone is made for what u call "emes la'amito" even though that's IMHO a prejorative term.

Yitzchok said...

Geborene,

"but shouldnt 100 people deviating slightly from emes la'amito bother you?"

I take it that you understand that todays Lubavitch is "emes la'amito"

I am always wary of people who feel they are baaley batim on the truth.
It also goes without saying that a quick "tour" of hayntigeh Lubavitch will tell any truthful person that there are BIG problems

Anonymous said...

Geborene/Yitzchok/Anon
A lubavicher has a obligation that all of Klal Yisroel should learn toras Hachsidus anve your fellow Jew in any shape or form. May it be in Willi or Ponevezh. I would like to know what exactly means a Sanzer Chosid or a Belzer Chosid

geborene said...

yitzchak-
agreed, but if you stand by a certain derech bavdas hashem shouldnt you believe that its 100 percent truthful and be inwardly bothered and feel bad for every other Jew who is not "seeing the light"- and more importantly- overjoyed when another yid is doing whats right?
thats if one takke beleives in his beleifs, it that makes sense...

Anonymous said...

The Rebbe quoted the Frankel Rambam in the Haoras on Likutie Sichos,Reb Shabsi was a eideler Yid and was by the Rebbe on yechides, but he had some Editors from the BB Yated camp that were on the watch to cenure the Rebbes torah .

Anonymous said...

The rambam writes that if you love Hashem then you run around promoting Emunas Hashem, If you believe in the alter Rebbes derech in Achdus Hashem then you would promote it for every living Jew.

Yitzchok said...

Geborene,
Sorry!
Your derech be'avodas Hashen can be 100% emes and so can others.
"Eilu ve'eilu"

The real truth is that everyone's derech is not 100% and we call all learn from each other.
People who claim that only their way is 100% are to viewed with pity realizing that are so far from the truth, that they still think their way is 100% right

Small "he'oro", if the Lubavitch way was 100% correct, you would not see the Meshichist and yes even boreinunikscoming out of this derech.Somewhere, somehow the truth got lost in partisan politics.

Yitzchok said...

To all the Lubavitchers who have taynes about The Rebbe not being mentioned in the Frenkel index.

When Lubavitch publish seforim,do they mention others???
Does Lubavitch even publish non Lubavitch seforim??
Hardly.
Btw, Rav Kook and others were also not brought down in the index.Why doesn't that bother you, if you are such "anshei emmes"

geborene said...

yitzchak-
why are misguided people a proof that the derech is not correct?
lhavdil elef havdalos- how many have misinterpeted the torah?
if you dont beleive your way's correct, what pushed you to choose it over other drachim?

Anonymous said...

Yitzchok
Having some people veering off track from a certain derech does not tell you that it is not the truth,from where do we have all our apikorsim maskilim etc... all their parents and communites were original on the right path. The truth is the truth, Vechi Yovaad Heolom Mipnie Hashotim? Maskilim were anti kabala and anything that had a tint of mysticisim, they were pro Nigleh only. The Shabsoim were into Kabala and mysticisim. Would you close shop on Nigleh and Kabala because of those movements?

Anonymous said...

Yitzchok
Did you see the Rebbes bekius in Likutie sichos? There is no Rishon or Achron that is not mentioned in their, Don"t be a ferd and check it out before you comment.
Kehot is a publishing house that is aimed to print tens of thousand manuscript of the chabad rebiem.

Yitzchok said...

Anonymous,
I don't understand what you are trying to prove about the Rebbes beki'us.Did I say anything about it at all?
Did I even say an opinion about the Frenkel index omitting the Rebbe?

All I said was that le'aniyus da'ati Lubavitch are the last ones to come beta'anos because they almost exclusively publish their own Rebbeims Torah and almost nobody else.

I also pointed out that Rav Kook was also omitted and for some reason I don't think that bothers the average Lubavitcher

Anonymous said...

Yitzchok
does Mechon Chasam Sofer print reb Ovadia Yoseef Seforim? they have a purpose for printing all the works of the CS. Kehot had a purpose to print the torah of the Rebiem
The Rebbe went out of his way when he printed the Sdie Chemed, he felt that rabonim after the war would need it.
but for instance the shmussen/ talks and tale had sipurim from all type of tzadikiim, if you are not getting the difference then I apologize for calling you a ferd.

Anonymous said...

they also omitted Rav Soloviechig of Boston,and rav Kafach and it does bother Lubavichers ,
because they dont like political correctness

Rehov slonim 11 said...

1) the K rebbi hardly mentioned the war...always crying...? be careful...
2) lippela did not die in auchvitz...
3)400 gerrer hasidim go to umman with the rebbis bracha...

seen it all said...

Talking about uman, last night a yid from EY told me that an ainikel of the squarer was in uman for RH. If that's true, it's earthshattering. Any confirmation?

Anonymous said...

Slonim
Did Lipele die in the war? or before,
what does it mean he rarely mentioned the war? I heard him live and on tape and I read all that it is printed from him, the war was a central theme in his talks, unless you are talking of a different K Rebbi, Maybe Glassner, but I am talking about Halberstam

Anonymous said...

Seen it all
you heard correct the Skverer has 2 grand children rebels.They obviously enjoys to slaughter all taboos of Skver.

Rehov slonim 11 said...

1) ...the K rebbi did not speak of the war on a personel level...a few years ago the sanz magizine collected all the personel items and printed it...
2) lippela died soon after the war from what he suffered during the war HY'D...
3) there are 500 drashot now on kolhalashon in yiddish and hebrew...

Anonymous said...

Getting back to Kluger, how grave was his sins that the Sanzer of Natanya saw fit to go beserk 2 times.
Is it the traveling to Uman? does that give him the right, because his father had a certain view about Kivrie Tzadikim. their are many sources in Chazal,Zohar,Chassidus,Gra etc..that tell us that Kivrie Tzadikim is like the Mokam Hamikdosh. Is it the Unsane Tokef, Did not the Sanzer Rov not say 1 year Lamnatzeach before Tekias Shofer, which is the high
light of hislavous by most Jews, or not saying Ledovid Hashem ... So if you are not the Yekke of Germany and any Minhag can be changed, then Mi Somcho Leish.

LikeWhatever said...

seen it all

They whern't there. Yet...

The Rosh Yeshiva of one of them (An ex skverer turned bresslover) was.

kluger misnaged said...

Kluger's problem is that he makes yidishkeit easy and and no kabolas oil is needed.Not saying nasane tokef BECAUSE it bring more shchoire and it makes you too b'atsvus, kissing evereybody Purim thousands times ("move you payos away from your zise baken- i can't kiss you like that'' -his words on a tape-i heard it myself) ETC-that's weird , to say the least.

The only thing that make me think that he is OK, is that all "tsdikei emes b'doreinu'' are against him :)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

kluger misnaged

are you an ex-Kluger guy?

can you help us understand what goes on there?

Anonymous said...

no, but my friends brother in law is in there and i heard plenty of his tapes. s'shmeck nisht git.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"i heard plenty of his tapes. s'shmeck nisht git."
are their different tapes then you hear on Kol Haloshen?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

וואס שמעקט דיר נישט? האסט דען אזא גוטן חוש הריח
?

kluger misnaged said...

anon 2:49

No, private tapes taped by his Hasidim.

Hershel,

What's good is complicated, but garbage smells.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if all or many Lubavitchers are bothered by SF's omission of the Rebbe's sichos. Yet, I am confident that one particular Lubavitcher was bothered by this, vedal.

I personally don't understand why Lubavitchers get their hats bent out of shape over this issue. The index only quote from written books on the Rambam, not from oral discources that were transcribed (by a whole team). Additionaly, it does not cite to Chassidishe seforim, only to pshat seforim (with miner exceptions). Hence, an inspirational discorse by a Rebbe to his Chassidim, especaily when the topic of the day centers around current events, is not going to make it to the index. Of course, a signficant percentage of the Rebbe's extropolotions on Rambam are ostensibly based on pshat, but it would be extremely difficult for an editer to weed out and sift which ones are pshat-relevant. Arguably, the Chabad editors can make that determination for him, but it is understandable why SF might be reluctant to rely on them. [Of course, it is not practical to hire non-Lubav. to go through the sichas]. All of this gets exacerbated by much of the political message that was delivered via the sichos' i.e, can you really expect SF to cite to the sichas about the Seven Mitzvos? Finally, of course it made good fiscal sense not to quote from the Rebbe, because most learning Jews never opened a LS and a large percentage of them don't want a reminder of Lubavitch's existence while they are learning. As far as attracting Lubavitchers who are interested in such a thing, presumably they can find sichos using the LS's own index. In short: the numbers of Lubavitchers who would only buy it because it cites the Rebbe, would not offset the amount of people who would not be too happy about it.

anon 11:31:00 PM said...

Anonymous said...
Geborene/Yitzchok/Anon
A lubavicher has a obligation that all of Klal Yisroel should learn toras Hachsidus anve your fellow Jew in any shape or form. May it be in Willi or Ponevezh. I would like to know what exactly means a Sanzer Chosid or a Belzer Chosid"

First, thanx to Geborene/Yitzchok for keeping this discussion with a respectful debate without the usual garbage that flies around here.

Just to clarify what I said above. L'shitoseinu, everyone is m'chuyav to learn toras hachassidus today and as chassidim we have to spread this message. Not necessarity Chabad chassidus as the Rebbe told the belzer in 5741.

A 2nd part is derech Chabad and that is not sha'yich to everyone and a person can be emes l'amitoh, oivad Hashem, learn Torah lishmoh without following this derech.

From discussions I had today with some people in EY, RATK is following the first and has his own derech. And if 100 Chabad chassidim would follow him and it would increase their yiras shmayim, learning Torah esp Chassidus, it wouldn't bother me at all.

kluger misnaged said...

Heiliger Rizhiner said:
"The ONLY mistake Shabsai Tzvi did was that he did not ask eitsos from gdoley hador b'yomov-he made his hachlotos on his own"

Hameivin Yovin.

Anonymous said...

Continue, please

Anonymous said...

Anon
So whats your chidush that people hate luabvich and they dont want the rebbes sichos in the Rambam welcome to the hate club. Why are you writing so long deroshas to validate your obvious facts.
My friend you can shove your hate facts, but I know too many talmidie chachomim that are learning the rebbes nigleh sichas and love his clarity, and many seforim outside of Lubavich are quoting the Rebbe, and chabad will survive despite the Farbisene editors as D Z Hilman teha Misosai Kaporosai that despised the Rebbe till his death

Anonymous said...

Kluger Misnaged(oxymoron)
where did you see this vort?
1 more question as far as I know, the Ruzhiner asked no one on his revolutionary hanhoga. do you have some different info?

Anonymous said...

Anon
So whats your chidush that people hate luabvich and they dont want the rebbes sichos in the Rambam welcome to the hate club. Why are you writing so long deroshas to validate your obvious facts.
My friend you can shove your hate facts, but I know too many talmidie chachomim that are learning the rebbes nigleh sichas and love his clarity, and many seforim outside of Lubavich are quoting the Rebbe, and chabad will survive despite the Farbisene editors as D Z Hilman teha Misosai Kaporosai that despised the Rebbe till his death

"So whats your chidush that people hate luabvich and they dont want the rebbes sichos in the Rambam welcome to the hate club"

Go back to school for reading comprehension. I acknowledged that many hate the Rebbe and that is a factor. However, I gave many other alternative reasons that would explain the ommission, even if they didn't hate Chabad. Duh!

"but I know too many talmidie chachomim that are learning the rebbes nigleh sichas and love his clarity,"

How do you know that they are talmidie chachomim? BTW, what in the world is "clarity"? I find many of the sichas as hyper-technical (especially when it gets into the dibur hamaschils of Rashi)and have way too many parenthisis that make the reading (not only not easier, but more) difficult than (it would be) without (the) parentisis. I heard them extolled for charipus, chaps and for their breidkeit, but clarity is a first.

"and many seforim outside of Lubavich are quoting the Rebbe,"

I never seen them. Must be I only look at seforim that are worthy of the Frankel indext. BTW, are these seforim also special in their "clarity"?

"and chabad will survive despite the Farbisene editors.."

Chabad will survive (I never knew Chabad's survival was an issue) just as the Rebbe continues to survive.

"My friend you can shove your hate facts,"

Thank you for the display of Ahavat Yisroel.

seen it all said...

LikeWhatever said...
seen it all

They whern't there. Yet...

The Rosh Yeshiva of one of them (An ex skverer turned bresslover) was."

Actually I got confirmation last night. One ainikel was there. His father is Yaakov Yosef, one of the younger children of the skverer. this kid is 16 yo,and a rebel.


Considering what skver thinks of breslov, u can assume his grandfather would rather have him frei out totally than go to uman.

Anonymous said...

Anon
Regarding your arguments
their are 2 seforim maftechos on all the Rebbes sichas, plus their are 3 versions of reworked sichas of the Rebbe on the rambam. it is only one reason it is the hate of Reb Duvid Zvi Hilman for the Rebbe, Did you ever see his hateful letter against Rav Kafach why he excluded his torah in the frankel rambam why he can not call him a Horav Hagoan

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Thank you for the display of Ahavat Yisroel."
Im Ikesh Tispatel is not a contradiction with a ahavas yisroel

Anonymous said...

Anon
"How do you know that they are talmidie chachomim?"
give me your criteria of a talmud chochem, And I will check if they match your demands

kluger misnaged said...

anon 6:45

This vort is in the new Irin Kadishin

Yes , he did- his father and his brother. (ich hot gehat 2 rebes- main tate und main brider -that's what he said)

Anonymous said...

"their are 2 seforim maftechos on all the Rebbes sichas, plus their are 3 versions of reworked sichas of the Rebbe on the rambam."

I am interested in knowing how the sichot are organized. Are the inspirational aspects bifurcated from the pshat elements? Personaly, I find that the line gets blurred in the lectures and the pshat gets influenced by the point that the Rebbe is making. Unfurtantely, too many Lubavitchers can't distinguish between the two; and value an interpratation which might be valued for its (temporary) inspirational (importance, which is based upon)degree of impact (of motivating, and derveking on a qualatative and quantative level)it's listeners (both those who were present and those who heard it only via radio hookup; as we know there is an intrinsic difference between hearing a Rebbe's Torah literealy mipiv then from hearing it via indirect mediums)and readers (both who read it after the sicha, when the issues were still fresh and relevant and all future readers whose reading is on a lower level because there is a time, cultural and generational gap), and tto gauge the inspiration on Machshuvuah. dibur and Maysah of the listeners, to inspire them not only (to refrain from doing the haypech of tov) but from continuing to do more good deeds and to strenghtening, supporting and taking to the next level, the good deeds they already did.
IOW: When the Rebbe gives one of those drashas, that can be given any time of the year, and he weaves in sources from the parshah and Rambam, the pshat value of those extropolations are (not only of questionable long-term importance to a non-Lubab) but it's temporal nature is glaring. Constrast that to a Lubavitcher who is on the editing team of the sichas (and is on the same payroll as the PR/billboard individual)who believes, that if the words came out of the Rebbe's mouth, it is has eternal value and should be studied, examined and disected.

Incidentely, I am trying to illustrate to you an important point that seems to have been missed by you. I illustrated via a parable, because we know that a parable is used when the teacher's sechel can not be grasped by the student and must be clothed in a form that is closer to the sechel of the student. There are (not only several, but) many different ways of making a point. We are taught that a Rebbe should teach his studends in a manner in which the information is set out on a set table.... Whatever, I can also take a simple point and draw it out, with parentsis and disclaimers of "what I don't mean" and with an editing team, put footnotes on everyother word and print minimal words on a page, it can be confusing and make (which is the inension) some readers think more is going on then it really is, even though the Rebbe's thought and point can be succinctly stated in a sentence or two

Anonymous said...

Kluger
when did his father die? how old was he?

Anonymous said...

Kluger
when did his brother die? how old was he?

Anonymous said...

Anon
all the sichas start with the niglah and towards the end you have the biur al pi Chassides, as is the way of the Bnie yisoscher etc...
if someone wishes to use it then he can differentiate,plus Reb Isser Zalman Wiesberg made many Kuntriesim that were written yeshivesshe shprach with no foot notes in rashi fonts of the Rebbes sichos.They could take Sichas from there All your long hate laced hogwash don"t interest me, I learned the Rebbes sichas when I and my friends were 14 years old and we understood it well.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Constrast that to a Lubavitcher who is on the editing team of the sichas (and is on the same payroll as the PR/billboard individual)"
Do you know that Reb Lebel Shapira or his friends from the sichas are on the same payroll as the Teletone of LA ? or where else ?please explain

kluger misnaged said...

anon 5:07

When his father was niftar, The Rizhiner was 7, and when his brother was niftar he was 13.

Apter Roov put a gartul on him when he was 14, saying that he is mekayem mitsvas glilas seifer toire.

Any other questions?

Anonymous said...

Kluger
I knew the Apter rov put the Gartel, and I knew that his parents died when he was young, so please don"t come to a mashpia that learned in Klausenburg by the old Rebbe and went to the Tosher,Maybe they told him something in secret. Btw, who is the Rebbe of the Belzer? Boyaber ? Stoliner?

Clarity said...

@Anon3:34 (assuming you are also Anon-of-Tuesday-4:47)
It seems that you haven't learned any of the Rebbe's sichos seriously (as opposed to looking for things to criticize). Whether the format of LkS is the most user-friendly can be debated, and that also depends on what audience it was intended for. But if you question the clarity and relevance of the sichos in the way you do, you reveal a near absolute ignorance of the actual content of LkS. Your attempt at mimicking the "style" of the sichos is likewise quite weak. You also don't seem able to differentiate between the way the Rebbe spoke and the format of LkS, which is obvious to anyone who has learned them both.

Anonymous said...

"if someone wishes to use it then he can differentiate,"

So SF should publish all of them?

"plus Reb Isser Zalman Wiesberg made many Kuntriesim that were written yeshivesshe shprach with no foot notes in rashi fonts of the Rebbes sichos.They could take Sichas from there"

I am not sure what you are saying. Wesiberg edited out all the policy-statements? I would like to see those, what are they called? I see Weisberg's good chinuch of his formative years served him well and will always be a part of him. Who knows, maybe he will try to open a yeshiva for Lubavitch mitzuyanim.
I see you never addressed my point that SF doesn't cite to oral discources. I will let that slide...

"I learned the Rebbes sichas when I and my friends were 14 years old and we understood it well."

That speaks volumes of the amkus of the content or of your dimyan and chutzpah.

I can't figure out, in many of the sichas, who the intended audience was. In middle, he will feel the need to explain a simple concept at length (example: why it's important to explain an old text of Rashi even though it was subsequently deleted) and then afterwords, in the same sichah, he gives a tedious biur that requires an open Chumash for most to understand.

Anonymous said...

Anon,

"So SF should publish all of them?"

Did I say all of them, I would say at least once

"Wesiberg edited out all the policy-statements?'
Since ?I am a ignorant(and Mechutzaf) I cant for the life of me understand this line , plz explain.
"That speaks volumes of the amkus of the content or of your dimyan and chutzpah."
so if I will tell you that my friends and me learned Kovetz Shiurim and reb Naftoli Troop, then I am a Mechutzaf and baal dimyon too? plz explain how your thought process works. I am working overtime to decipher your psychobabble.

Anonymous said...

Yes, you didn't understand it "well". [BTW, KS was for mesivta buchorim]

Anonymous said...

Mr Anon,
we didn't clear up your accusations that the People that work on the Sichos are the same that work on the telethon or the lag beomer parade, did you have the decency to call Reb Libel shapiro the rosh of Miami or Rav Altien of Ch to solidify your claims,or you work in the bank and you mailed them back the checks.

Anonymous said...

They got paid in cash. My point, though, was that they are all in the PR business.

Anonymous said...

I heard Reb Asher Arieli quote it 100's of times for the Yeshiva gedola of Mir, It is quoted many times in the Ried of most Roshie Yeshivahs.
Did Sf put Kovetz Shiurim torah in the Maftechois, maybe not, it is too juvenile, what a Dal Gaye...Arrogance/Ignorance of a misnaged at its best....

Anonymous said...

Anon
Is Reb Liebel Shapiro in to PR? by giving a shiur in Bava Kama for bucherim? is every magid shiur a pr guy? or only lubavichers? in you twisted snaggy brain

Anonymous said...

Anon
"I can't figure out, in many of the sichas, who the intended audience was"
it is very simple. the audience consists of people that appreciate a biur on a divrie hamaschil,a biur on both gersas in rashi, and a tedius biur in rashi, all combined in one likut, it is a very multifaceted crowd, isn"t it wonderful, I hope by now all your quiestion were put to rest, and our great proffesor will enjoy his dinner with his esteemed family.

Avi said...

"I see Weisberg's good chinuch of his formative years served him well and will always be a part of him. Who knows, maybe he will try to open a yeshiva for Lubavitch mitzuyanim.
I see you never addressed my point that SF doesn't cite to oral discources. I will let that slide..."


Actually, Isser Zalman Weissberg announced that he was opening up a yeshiva in Lakewood lemetsuyonim a number of years ago.
He had an interesting website with the yeshivas curriculum and some interesting history, including a visit of the Rayat"z in Lakewood (maybe on his visit in 1930 to the USA)and a letter from R'Aharon Kotler to the Rayat'z, thanking him for a donation (iirc.It may have been a donation to the yeshiva in Kletzk)

I guess it fell thru for some reason.Maybe Weisberg did not feel like travelling from Toronto all the time.


Btw, this whole discussion about using Weisbergs rewriting of Sichos is probably off because Frenkel Rambams mafteach was probably prepared before Weisberg did his work

Anonymous said...

Those shiurim were said in a manner that the 14 year olds in Baranovitz can understand it.

I question someone claiming that they understood "very well" the Rebbe's sichas at 14, and how that comports with the notion that the Rebbe is Rogotovahesque.

Anonymous said...

A(h) V(oice of) I(ntelect)

Cool stuff. I guess Weissberg realized that a yeshiva L'mitzuyanim with a website (discussing curriculum) is oxymoronic; impossible to fuse PR with real learning.

I think Frankel is (planning on) making a reprint, especially on "zmanim" that wasn't as good as the rest of them. Maybe we can direct the editors to IZ's website...

Anonymous said...

Lubabs taught IZ a thing or two about mesiras nefesh and going out to farout places with no comfort, just to spread the message.

http://www.jewishretreat.eu/download/Guide.pdf

I guess this is "plan-B" when a yeshiva for mitzuynam doesn't work...

Tziki kedera said...

kluger misnaged,,,regarding taking advice from the zakanim...r tzvi meir zilverberg tried to resign but his rebbi (amshinov) did now allow it...

Anonymous said...

Avi
definitly not, the Mafteoch was done only hallways, also they revised the mafteach on Zmanim lately.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Anon
you can question till tomorrow, their is no difference between shiurim that are being said for 14 year old then for 20 year old, the same reb Chaims the same Brisker rovs, the same Ketzois the same Nesivois.
Regarding learning Ragachover, if it is well written, as for example Zevin wrote it in his Ishim Veshitois then a 14 year old can get it, if it is still in the Ragachovers original writing with 20 to 30 Marie Mekomos,then must 30 year olds will not get it either.

Anonymous said...

you bunch of Misnagdic idiots, stop talking about Wiesberg, he is far from being the biggest Lamdan and Goan in Lubavich,he is a Talmud Chochem, it just shows your ignorance of Lubavich and its people, that you analyze day and night,

kluger misnaged said...

ANON 5:45

learned in Klausenburg by the old Rebbe

AS FAR AS I KNOW, HE WAS NOT CLOSE TO HIM AT ALL.

and went to the Tosher

SAME AS THE ABOVE. MAY BE IN THIS THINGS DO NOT WORK.

Where do i belong?:) AND VELECHE GACHES GEI ICH??? One thing for sure- none of the above.

Anonymous said...

"you can question till tomorrow, their is no difference between shiurim that are being said for 14 year old then for 20 year old, the same reb Chaims the same Brisker rovs, the same Ketzois the same Nesivois."

you dropped out at what age?

kluger misnaged said...

Tziki,

The way I see it, Kluger is the only problematic one. Aderabe, we need more Tzvi Meirs !

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

KLUGER MISNAGED

Tzvi Meir is good for certain types, namely those that are not looking for Toras HaChassidus. There is a need for Kluger, as is evidenced from the attraction that he is.

Anonymous said...

Kluger Misnaged,
I really don"t know how close he was with the old Klausenburger, but it can always be argued, that he heard in Klausenberg, whatever he want it to learn from him. Since as you probably know that the Klausenburger was a very color full personality, one week all the torah by the Tish and the torah by Davening was all going in one direction, the next week it was a total 360 the other way. The Klausenburger claimed the Sanzer Ziede was the same, with his Avoda and Minhogim that he was consistenly inconsistent. Kluger can always claim I took 1 direction and I will be consistent with it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I think most other Sanzer Eyniklach disagreed with the Klausenberger's assertion that HE was the mamshich and not the others, just like he disagreed with the Bobover's opinion that HE was the mamshich.

So even the Sanzer derech is up for grabs, it seems.

So why should a Kluger derech be אפגעפרעגט just because it's new.

געוואלד געשריגן said...

No one ahas pointed out the real scandal, the inflammatory sentence at the end of the pashkvil:

"...כל מי שאחז רק בפתח ביתם אפי' מבחוץ ירים ויגביה בעינו וידבר מגדולת האיש המשוגע שגזר את עצמו למשיח ועדיין חי לעולם ועד אחר שעבר עליו קבורת חמור".

Who will be moche at such seditious language?!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

moche?!

would you be "moche" if the neighbor's dog poops on your lawn?

But thanks for highlighting that line. Most of us missed it.

moshe said...

"you bunch of Misnagdic idiots, stop talking about Wiesberg, he is far from being the biggest Lamdan and Goan in Lubavich,he is a Talmud Chochem, it just shows your ignorance of Lubavich and its people, that you analyze day and night,"

Yingel,
Are you showinghow mature you are by not even choosing a name?
Moron

kluger misnaged said...

Hershele,

Those who are not nlooking for Toras Hachasidus??? what ELSE does he talk about and which other sfurim does he bring down? He is not too tif- that may-be- but he makes a lot of people serious-that's for sure.

He is not telling anybody to daven or learn less, and just have fun, like Kluger. Kluger told people to leave kolelim-not to go to work, which might of been a good thing :)-but to be busy with so-called "dveikus"and being happy -creating a new type of bums out there, which are all set - no avoide needed, and everything is just fine.

He is an alternative to the all mfursomim shel sheker-that's good- but does all alternative medicine heals? that's the question

Anonymous said...

Kluger Misnaged,
I dont buy all the rechilas on Kluger, I assume that all his statements were taken out of context, none of it are in his seforim, it was probably said in the midst of a hot debate, and he gave some statement for a good punchline, Too many talented people were brought down like this, by organized religon.

Yeruchem G said...

I love how the Satmars demand respect for themselves and their shittos yet resort to the lowest gutter language when referring to their adversaries.

עפרא לפומם

Kluger must be doing something right...

Anon22 said...

Reb Tzig, please remember to continue past with Part I (when you are ready), this is interesting stuff !

Anonymous said...

Yeruchem
the Satmars don"t demand respect, they need more your approval that "DE Rebbe Iz Geven Gerecht" they are very insecure since all gedolie yisroel did not agree with him then, and Rov Miyan Ubinyan in Eretz Yisroel does not follow his advice today neither.

Anonymous said...

Yeruchem,

You are right about Satmar-but any other organized crime is not much better.

But also that was precisely Shneur's problem.
All pluralistic people are pluralistic until you say something sharp about them.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
it is not a Schneur problem, it is all people of academia or in touch with acedimia are thin skinned when they are refuted. They can slander people left and right in the name of free speech. But it all stops when their interest is being touched.

Russian Chusid said...

Anon 1:57 pm

Thanks for explaining it clearly to the public.

in der alter heim by fabrengens evreybody use to " wash" one each other, and nobody cared-because they were real chasidisher yiden that were butl by zich.

Anonymous said...

I met Rav Kluger and a bunch of his chassidim in Uman. They are people really interested in avoidas Hashem. Rav Kluger is the real deal. He comes to the US and is only interested in spreading Torah. He speaks everywhere yeshivas and private houses. I heard him speak and he had poshute yidden glued to their chairs for 2 hours. there was lots of hischazkus. And there is NEVER any solicitation for money. He has a few dedicated chassidim that happily support him. Chassidus teaches that we want the best for the Riboino Shel Olam not for ourselves. These Rebbes that are supposedly (dont know how accurate that is, as some of those mentioned have been very close with him) against him should be thrilled that people are serving Hashem. Spoke to people that knew him when he was younger and they said he was always a big oived.

YL said...

וואס שמעקט דיר נישט? האסט דען אזא גוטן חוש הרי ?
"Riach Apeini mushiach Hashem". Only Mushiach or who lives today with the "ohr shel Mushiach" can have a "good schmeck".