Monday, October 25, 2010

ווערעמלאך אין די קעפאלאך



There's talk about a recent discovery of Apikorsus in our frum community. A group of bochurim from the Aleksander Yeshivah, which had recently become another satellite Satmar Yeshivah, were found to be "Apikorsim," r"l. Apparently, what set it all of was a yungerman who made it clear - one year after getting married - that he believed in nothing. No Torah min HaShomayim, no S'char VeOnesh. Nothing. To his shvigger, no less! That's right, he told his SHVIGGER he believed in nothing. Of course his vaybel said she was unwilling to continue life with a husband like that, and the divorce proceedings began soon after. That guy should be sent packing just because of a stupid move like that, not because of what he does and doesn't believe! In the aftermath they learned that he was the mentor of several such bachurim who were still in the above-named Yeshivah, and steps were taken to root out the heretics and banish them forever. Details are murky, and my Aleksander connection is not what it used to be, so I'll refrain from repeating the rumors that I've heard.

Far be it from me to diminish the threat of Apikorsus in our community, but allow to be the skeptic here as well. אויף צו זיין אן אפיקורס דארף מען פריער וויסן אז ס'איז פאראן אן אייבערשטער, and I doubt that was the case here. I'd venture to say that this was nothing more than a group of guys that realized that just "bumming out" was not an option for them. They don't know how to have a good time, even if they could. You might say: "Tzig, why do you try and diminish the threat that blogs and books pose to our boys?" No, my friends, you misunderstand. There's no inherent threat; the fact that some boys stop believing is not because of a blog, or because some genius "opened their eyes," just like the fact that many of our kids go OTD is not because of an IPod or a billboard. It could be a lack of Yiras Shomayim is what causes one to go astray, if all is well. And often times Yiras Shomayim just doesn't happen with all kids. That's if there were no traumatic events during his youth, VeDal. Or it could be countless other things, like a lack of learning ability or a family dysfunction. Or it could be that we're taught to do things only because others are watching, not G-d. Yet, for some reason even most of the Rabbinic leadership seems to focus on the Ipods and the billboards.





Can we blame most of these Rabbinic types? no. Not really, anyway. That's how they were raised and they think highly of themselves, so if it worked for them why tamper with a good thing, eh? But 2010 is not 1965, just like 1965 wasn't 1925. And we also cannot force this one model onto all segments of frum society, not until we force all frum Jews to be one homogenous group. MO is not Lubavitch, Lubavitch is not Yeshivish, Yeshivish is not Ger, Ger is not Vizhnitz or Belz, and they're not Satmar. Neither is Satmar Toldos Ahron or Avrum Yitzchok. We cannot write articles in Mishpacha and decide that the advice fits all shapes or sizes. each group has different reasons why so many fallen aveck. Oy! Boy, have I digressed. But have I really? Isn't that what happened to the boys from Aleksander? Does not all deviation from the path of the righteous have its roots in the same unhappiness? That's what I was told all my life. Whatever. Now I'm rambling again. But of course this will turn into a finger-pointing session, and somehow Lubavitch will be blamed here again... So to sum it up: I would tell Aleksander Yeshivah to address the root of the problem rather than cutting off a few branches.

But what do I know?

85 comments:

Anonymous said...

it is 1 reason only that they stopped learning Vayoel Moshe, which is the source of Emuna in our generation, I heard that Noegureshol(I hope I pronounced that Hungarian name correctly) of Arachim is using the Vayoel Moshe to refute all the heretics that he encounters.

mendel bl said...

Vosizneias carries a fiery speach by a ruv from Willy against yeshivas that only accept metsuyunem and hints at one such yeshiva "where we see what happened".

Anonymous said...

the whole story is a hoax it is a rumor spread by competing yeshivas and you fell for it

Division Avenue said...

Are you going to have something to say about R'Ahron Krauses drusheh?
The one about yeshivos only accepting the bestest and brightest, and callingfor a financial boycott if not

In Lubavitch it has never been a problem, they accept anyone and everyone,obviously as long as they are mekabel malches.

The reality appears that Lubavitch is succesful in growing the mekablei malches, but not.very succesful in bringing out talmudei chachumim.
I still think Rabbi Krauss is onto something

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Mr. division

so now I became a real time news blog? be patient

and of course we see what happens when you don't accept everybody, like in the "normal" yeshivos...

Anonymous said...

did Rav Kraus accept in his yeshuva any bochur that came to his door ? as long he had a pair of rolled peyoth. I doubt it.

refoel said...

Been a long time since we had a pirsum rishon.Nu?

Anonymous said...

interesting photo, where's it from?

Eli said...

"did Rav Kraus accept in his yeshuva any bochur that came to his door ? as long he had a pair of rolled peyoth. I doubt it."


Can you perhaps translate this mumbo-jumbo into English?

Anonymous said...

best post ever by HT.

LikeWhatever said...

Anon 6:59
did Rav Kraus accept in his yeshuva any bochur that came to his door ? as long he had a pair of rolled peyoth. I doubt it.

Nobody expects every yeshiva to accept every kid. The issue he righfully raises is what is the criteria for a "Lo Niskabel"

His Taaneh is that Its not a Ehrlichkeit barometer thats being used.The going criteria in the Yeshiva LeMitzuyanim is IQ and intellectual ability. And that has zero basis in Yiddishkeit.

Hes Right On.

Anonymous said...

Hirsheleh,
There is a lot of gutteh sechoireh on Bechadrei
For example, pics from R'Kahanemans sons wedding, with the Gaaved R'Toivyeh and others
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=20798&cat_id=2.

We"''ll keep you busy.
Btw,I see others also asked you about your opinion on R'Krauses drosho on Vosizneias.
How about the "extortion" story that was on Bechadrei and Vosizneias.Very starnge to say the least.

Mendel

Daniel said...

"as long he had a pair of rolled peyoth"

What do want to know?
Do bochurim need "as long" peyos, do they need "rolled" peyos?

I think you should not post while drinking

LikeWhatever said...

http://www.vosizneias.com/66832/2010/10/25/new-york-in-fiery-speech-brooklyn-rabbi-says-dont-give-tzedakah-to-yeshivos-that-reject-talmidim-audio

Its worth to listen. He makes a not so subtle referance to Aleksander

Anonymous said...

i had a son in that yeshiva. it is supposed to be a yeshiva for metzuyanim, but "somehow" the richies are also able to get in. in one word, this yeshiva hoddevet baale gaave par excellence. so, as you said, these kids can't just bum out, they have it allfigured out and fertig. like one of the great ones said. er hot nisht kashyes, er hat a teretz tzi zan a shigetz

Shmuel said...

Like whatever,
I was not sure who he meant.U think it's Aleksander?
I"m sure he did not mean Lubavitch.It's open door policy there.
Infact I think one of the reasons Isser Zalman Weisbergs idea to open a Lubavitcher yeshiva limetsuyonim in Lakewood folded was that this whole idea is alien to todays Lubavitch.Actually Lakewood does have a Lubavitcher yeshiva for boys who get extra attention
Their website http://www.tiferesshmuel.com/Home_Page.html

Yumy said...

We in Lubavitch have not had such an issue during the Rebbes reign.
Once upon a time it was very, very difficult to get into Tomchei Temimim back in the town of Lubavitch.
In the archives of this blog you can find some of the brochures and criteria to get into old time TT

Anonymous said...

"In Lubavitch it has never been a problem, they accept anyone and everyone,obviously as long as they are mekabel malches.

The reality appears that Lubavitch is succesful in growing the mekablei malches, but not.very succesful in bringing out talmudei chachumim."

Loo yih'yeh kidvorecho, but sometimes even a dumb stupid anti-semite says something worth commenting on.

Unfortunately, this machla is alive and well in lubavitch yeshivas althought not to the extreme in other places. B"H my two sons in Chabad yeshivas don't have a problem getting accepted to wherever they want to go, but too many friends are going thru this. Time has proven that it backfires on the yeshivas that do selectzia, and the ones that accept everyone but put down rules wind up doing well year after year.

BTW, B"H both of my sons can probably wipe the floor with u in learning, and no we weren't kidnapped and brainwashed by YK or anyone else. They were educated in the Rebbe's schools from day 1, and they learn day and night.

dovy from jersey said...

is that the yeshiva where rav faivelson's eidim, kammer rov of central ct. shul in lakewood, is a rebbe? also finkel from lakewood?

Anonymous said...

The Mishpocho article on apikorsus was silly

Anonymous said...

oy nebach. just a little more mashke woulld have cured it, but they were makpid on daled caises...

Anonymous said...

Finally Tzig has hit a goldmine...

If people invest as much koiches into discussing this post as they do into all the less significant posts over the years, we have a chance to understand the biggest issue facing our youth.

Maybe it can be put down to the simple point that the outside world is more in their faces than any other generation, there is widespread poverty because a lack of education and growing up culturally different is seen as a barrier to happiness rather than geder of kedishe....gedarim only work when there is a belief and simcha in yiddishkeit (penumiyus) that needs to be protected.....

Cultural such as long reklach, speaking yiddish and not mixing with goyim have not proven the solution to all social ills. It has to be penimiyus and real.....

The Toldos Aharon Rebbe T'zl said the biggest nisoyn of our dor is in inyanei emuna and bitachon....

Maybe these bachrim are only saying openly what a large minority are thinking in their hearts from Lakewood to Williamsburg, From Boro Park to Crown Heights....

It may look different based on what culture you are brought up with but the result is the same..

Both the ugefurne Satmarer, Yeshivish and Lubavicher are all essentially the same when eating chulen with pork at the 'chulent' clubs....

We need to rebuild from yesodos...not focus on externalities such as yechi yarmulkas or shiech and zoken, or brisker payes or whatever.....

Anonymous said...

Division
"The reality appears that Lubavitch is succesful in growing the mekablei malches, but not.very succesful in bringing out talmudei chachumim."
did Rabbi Kraus or Satmar monroe produce more talmidie chachomim then Lubavich?

Mike Reicher said...

Unfortunately the Mishpacha article you mention merely highlighted the idiots that masquerade as 'mechanchim' today.
Yes, the ipods and smartphones open doors to kiids that were once closed, but thats NOT what causes so many to go OTD. Technology allows kids today to access real-time information about what's really going on in their communities. So when a kid who was abused by his rebbi reads about Kolko, Margulies etc, and reads about Elya Svei and C.P Scheinberg covering for the abusers, he mistakenly assumes that ALL rabbonim are pious frauds, and figures he may as well just leave.
When anyone with half-a-brain reads Ahron Feldmans stupid 'one size fits all' advice for todays youth, and remembers that AF has been around NI during some pretty horrible stories over the past decades AND DID NOTHING ABOUT THEM, then at least we can understand why kids leave. Mishpacha magazine is a stupid disgrace, and as usual, their 'expert' analysis serves nobody real or honest.
Try simple honesty with the kids today, teach them torah without the hate and lies, expose corruption and hypocrisy, and see what happens to the OTD rate then....

Anonymous said...

Mike Reicher,
you are a one track nut case, abuse is a problem but it is not the sole cause for all social ills in the human race. I am not yeshivesh but you got to give the formal respect for roshie yeshivahs that is the Jewish way.

geborene said...

. That guy should be sent packing just because of a stupid move like that, not because of what he does and doesn't beleive...

true, and i suspect the root of his outburst had nothing to do with apikorsus...as most outbursts of such nature...
halevai people should be as honest...
nebach on those that think this is the biggest problem...the tragedy is the real sfeikos keep quiet

Anonymous said...

so... where is the photo from?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon 2:25

do you see a stamp on the photo??

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"The Toldos Aharon Rebbe T'zl said the biggest nisoyn of our dor is in inyanei emuna and bitachon...."
I tought Kedushas Yesoid is the one and only problem of our Dor, this what I saw in his seforim

LikeWhatever said...

Shmuel

Rabbi Krauzs was only able to give this speach BECAUSE of the Aleksander Fiasco.

Hes riding on their back now. He did a smart move because nobody is going to defend Yeshivos LeMitzuyanim at this time.

Lubavitch has in recent years also adapted the Metzuyanim model in places like Toronto and a bit in Detroit. Its sad that davke this idea they picked up from Lakewood and Bnei Brak

LikeWhatever said...

Anon 6:31
"the whole story is a hoax it is a rumor spread by competing yeshivas and you fell for it"

Could be this specific instance is a Hoax. But from the public reaction its seems to have hit a Bloody Raw Nerve.

The days of the "Yeshiva LeMitzuyanim" are numbered....

Ive spoken to two Gevirim who throw out any fundraiser for Elite Yeshivos.

yehupitz said...

I'm not impressed with this new cause. In Europe, to be a yeshiva meant to be a Yeshiva L'Metzuyanim. The economy and culture did not support yeshivos for everyman. There were chadarim and then off to work for the non-metuyonim, unless they were rich.

So now in the post-WW2 world everybody is "entitled" to a Jewish education until they're 22. So the private elitist system of pre-war Europe has had to give way to basically a public school level of education for everybody. Is nobody allowed to set up a yeshiva kiyemei Kedem, designed to educate the next generation of leaders? I don't know how elitist or cruel these places are, but on principle alone I see no problem.

LikeWhatever said...

Its High time we demand from our Mosdos to develope a curriculum to teach about GOD.

Doesnt matter which GOD you believe in. Heimish. Yeshivish. Lubavich. American. ETC.

Whatever your Higher Power is, create a curriculum with text books Mashalim and tests and... teach it!!


In 25 yrs from now there will be a mass exodus from Heimishkeit.

Bring Aish and JLI into every Cheider and Yeshve NOW!

Anonymous said...

do you see a stamp on the photo??

i do, but i'm curious about which k'hila and event it was

LikeWhatever said...

Yehupitz:
You just refuted your own criticism of 'The New Cause'!

"The economy and culture did not support yeshivos for everyman. There were chadarim and then off to work for the non-metuyonim, unless they were rich."

So there youve gotten your answer. Today where the economy and culture demand that EVERYBODY attend a 'public school level of education' we cannot create a Segregated system.

In prewar Europe there wasnt any coerced segregation. Only those few who were cut out to be learners and leaders even attempted to join Yeshivos.

Today we dont need 'Yeshivos' we need 'Batei Chinuch' to teach the masses of youth how to survive and thrive as a Simple YID in a Cyber Reality.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon

the event is probably Lag BaOmer in Miron, circa 1955-1960

The cheder is somewhere in Meah Shearim, circa 1960

yoske said...

yehupitz
how many bochurim came out frum, b'frat later in larger towns like Kalish, where intellectualism was spreading? boruch hashem, families don't have to sacrifice their chilkdren's chinuch nowadays by sending them to work as karbanis for the family.
that rings true especially nowadays, in america, which is 100 times worse than kalish for bochurim who aren't learning.
to have a y'shivah which is the main one for a specific ch'sidus, and such a popular y'shivah for bochurim from other chasidisn because of it's lomdishe approach, isn't a smart move. It's relatively so much easier to give chinuch to so many more kids, with much bigger risks if not

Anonymous said...

shcoyach

Anonymous said...

Yehupitz

in Europe were you labelled as a second class citizen if u didnt attend Yeshiva? Was there a label called "Shvache Bachur" ?

WELL TODAY THERE IS. YEHUPITZ! KNOCK KNOCK! WAKE UP.

Klainer said...

Back to comment number 1:
How does learning Veyoel Moshe foster emunah? By urging that The Medinah be turned over to the PLO and/or the U.N.? By arguing that the Entebbe rescue was an act of the...? I hope comment no. 1 was meant as a joke.

Anonymous said...

Like whatever
"Today we don't need 'Yeshivos' we need 'Batei Chinuch' to teach the masses of youth how to survive and thrive as a Simple YID in a Cyber Reality."

Yiddishkiet has its rules and regulations, it is not a emotional movement.Yeshivahs are torah centers and not intended to be kosher meat warehouses. Torah has to be learned 24/7 as Chazal say "shove it down as a Ox" . A parent has a obligation to bring your son to a level to learn 24/7 and know Kol hatorah kilo, that is the torah way.
Regarding saving Klal yisroel we are getting to a different subject, and I admit it is a important issue,but it is like Sara Schnirer did with the Schools Systems for girls, that she definitely saved Klal Yisroel, I would put your Botie chinuch sytems in that category . But don't stop a Yeshiva and boys that want to achieve Torah the way torah wants it.

LikeWhatever said...

Anon 2:24
"Torah has to be learned 24/7 as Chazal say "shove it down as a Ox" . A parent has a obligation to bring your son to a level to learn 24/7 and know Kol hatorah kilo, that is the torah way"

1) Chazal also say 'Harbeh osu K'Rasb"i .. Velo alsa Beyadam"

they also say Elef nichnasim.. Veached Yotze...

They also say Someone who learns Perek echad shacris uPerek echad arvis is included in Lo Yamush Hatorah ...

2) The Me'Ohr Einayim and many of his contemporaries Talmidei Hamagid write that when a Yid is 'Machlif Parah Bchamor' he is LEARNING TORAH even more than the one who is only learning about it but not doing it in reality.

A Simple yid who is kovea Ittim and LIVES like a EHRLICHE Yid, IS learning torah all day.

3)Even if you would like to retain the simple Yeshivishe translation of 'Stuff it down his throat'
that obligation is either on the Yachid

The creation of yeshivos as we know it has no parallel in Chazal. It is a modern day invention that evolved in recent years. Its primary purpose WAS to Save Klal Yisrael. And in that regard it is obligated to cater to the need of this generation.

LikeWhatever said...

" But don't stop a Yeshiva and boys that want to achieve Torah the way torah wants it."

Historically our leaders did not become great thru Yeshivos. They just sat and learnt. Wherever they landed, they just sat and learnt. Period.
The Chazoh Ish is known to have said that yeshivos destroyed the Greats.

So I wouldnt stop a Boy who can learn 12 hours a day. But realistically that is approx a mere 3%-5% of the population.

Most bocherim are being forced to do something they cannot do and are implicitly being told that they are BAD for not being able to do so.
Please find me ur Chazals rediculing hard working ehrliche yidden!

Plus wheres your quotations of the obligation of a father to teach his son a parnassah. Why are they nicely being ignored.

Plus a little research into Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsches Philosophy's (Not withstanding Rav BB attack)would be in place.

The Biogrophy on Reb Michael ber Weismandel, Ish Chamudos might change ur mind as well.

Plus the factual history of how Klal Yisrael ran the last couple of thousand years is pretty powerfull referance as well. Puk Chazi mai ...

LikeWhatever said...

The bottom line is there are enough Mamarei Chazal for everyones opinion.

What really counts is tyhe facts on the ground. and the facts say there better be massive change fast...

Yeruchem G. said...

I'm a little late to the party here, but here's my two cents, my שמיני שבשמינית

Torah is for the few. The Proud. That's the way it was and should be now. The reason things changed in E Yisroel and in the rest of the world was because the Chassidim took charge and changed everything. If you cannot learn without an Artscoll or Yiddish teitsh GO TO WORK!

Yeshiva is for the Gutte Kep.

enough with this new age Meshugas!

Friendly Anonymous said...

LikeWhatever,

I seem to recall a kuntres acharon in Hilchos Talmud Torah where the Alter Rebbe differentiates between the mitzva of yedias hatorah, and the mitzva of vehogiso bo, and thus reconciles the "dai b'perek echod shacharis" with "kol mi shefshar la'asok batora v'eino oseik, etc.".

Anonymous said...

I don't understand why we can't put them all in one mossod, and then we can all share our one-size-fits-all ideas. It is easy to point fingers, because Chabad doesn't have a real drop out problem. Even if they go off, they still believe in the Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

Public high schools accept all the students in the district, but they have separate tracks for the top, middle and bottom. The top track usually does four years of AP science and AP math. The bottom tier have easier classes and shop where they learn some skills. Any student can enter any track, but if you don't pass the exams you'll be in first year high school forever.It all sorts itself out in a few months. High schools in integrated neighborhoods frequently don't have intergrated classes.

Anon3 said...

"The reason things changed in E Yisroel and in the rest of the world was because the Chassidim took charge and changed everything. If you cannot learn without an Artscoll or Yiddish teitsh GO TO WORK!"
I can't speak for EY, but referencing "The rest of the world", which includes the USA,Your premise is completely wrong.On the contrary.Most major kollelem and yeshivos gedolim are definitely not chassidish oriented.In the far flung kollel world most are offspring of Lakewood or other "Litvish" style moisdois.These koillelim have a large percentage of bentch kvetchers who have no business being there.
In the Chassideshe world most that are not learning oriented go into business,are employed by B&H or are stam laidig gayers.

Anonymous said...

Like whatever
"they also say Elef nichnasim.. Veached Yotze.."
Chazal are stating a fact but that does not eliminate from the Chiuv Limud Hatorah.

"Chazal also say 'Harbeh osu K'Rasb"i .. Velo alsa Beyadam"

My friend, I know alot of big Talmidie Chachomim that are into "massa mattan" and not "Toroisoi Imnosai" but they learned as youngsters 16 hours and now learn 7 hours a day, and shabos they learn for 14 hours, and they have a Yediah in rov Chelkai Hatorah.

Anonymous said...

Likewhatsever,

"The Me'Ohr Einayim and many of his contemporaries Talmidei Hamagid write... "

I think the old Skverer or reb Motel Rachmistrivker did not take the words of the Meor Einiem literally, they were of the "Sofo Lie Ketorah" philosophy. Obviously the Alter Rebbe in his works of Chassidus and in hilchos Talmud Torah is the biggest proponent and machmir in Limud haTorah.

Anonymous said...

Like whatever
"The creation of yeshivos as we know it has no parallel in Chazal. It is a modern day invention that evolved in recent years"
Yeshivahs is as old as chazal what exactly were Sura , Pumbadiso and the 24,000 talmidie reb akiva? they were not daf yomi jews.
As I wrote you before their s a mitzva of limud hatorah with all its ramification of Yedias Kol hatorah Kulo Nigla and nistar,Vedibarto Bom Veloi Bedvorim Betalim nobody is exempt from it as the Rambam starts in hilchos talmud torah, Echod Uni Echod Ushir.... no posek has a different view. But there are botie chinuch for the masses that unfortunately are falling on the sidelines. Since it is a new invention you can play with your own rules.

yoske said...

Yeshiva is for the Gutte Kep.

enough with this new age Meshugas!

The "new age meshugas" is older than the "litvishe mesorah"
you're right, it's chassidis's fault
there was a time when the hamoin am didn't know how to crack open a shulchin orich, when only the rich could afford to learn, and the lower class poor had to work to survive. there was a time when if you didn't become a boki b'shas, you didn't know basic halachis, vi lebt a yid
ch'ssidus tought that torah doesn't only belong to yeshivehleit, but everyone
aza groise shod!
maimid har sinai is definitely older than the caste system in europe

Anonymous said...

Like whatsever
"Plus wheres your quotations of the obligation of a father to teach his son a parnassah. Why are they nicely being ignored."
you are getting it wrong, I am not a litvak that believes in the new religion that all of Klal yisroel has to rot in Kolel, According to the Alte Rebbe in Hilchos talmud torah if you did not achieve the degree of real torah knowledge as writing a teshuva, you should go to work and help machzik torah, but all this does not dilute 1 iota from the chiuv limud hatorah to the degree of "Sofo Lie Ketorah" or Maisim Atzmo Keoiriev" and Yeshivas have to cater to that level.

Anonymous said...

Like whatsever
"The bottom line is there are enough Mamarei Chazal for everyones opinion."
but the Poskim are enforcing us to the the bottom line, you can talk about the mamorie chazal but the poskim have the final world,
this talk that we have to go according to the facts on the floor smells of Reform, eventough in this instance it is for the good.

Anonymous said...

Like whatsever
"The Biogrophy on Reb Michael ber Weismandel, Ish Chamudos might change ur mind as well"
I have no access to this book please enlighten me with a synopsis

Ceicel said...

I never liked Uri Zohar. I found him to be "the answer" to Chabad Kiruv activities, and therefore an affront to Chabad. In 5748-49 he was paraded around as the solution to the Chabad "Kiruv" problem. They had him speak at the Degel HaTeyreh conventions telling the people not to be impressed by Chabad's Shluchim and Kiruv, because they did it all wrong. He instead had all the answers. That at a time that he was Frum for all of maybe 13 years.

An Ailmesher said...

אויך מיר אן אפיקורוס.

What does he mean "he doesn't believe"? Did he discover a new טענה that hasn't been discussed ad nauseum. Has he read all philosophy books on the subject? Anyone can say they don't believe. It's just a bunch of hot air.

LikeWhatever said...

To all the many Anons here. Please make up a name. Its pretty simple actually.

1)The Me'Ohr Einayim is in Yismach Lev on Masechta Shabbos The 2nd piece Nasata Be'Emunah. He quotes this idea from the Besh"t. Im not an enyclopedia but i recall this idea brought down by many others.

2)"they also say Elef nichnasim.. Veached Yotze.."
Chazal are stating a fact but that does not eliminate from the Chiuv Limud Hatorah"

True. The chiyuv of limud Hatorah is relative to your capabilities. If u live ur live like a yid you are mekayim Lo Yamush.
This chazal isnt telling us a fact of a defunct system!! Our Torah has a working system!
There is only 1/1000 that Limud Hatorah is in its purest sense. They are the Morei De'oraysa.

3)The Alter rebbe writes in Lekutei Torah many times that there are Marei De'oraysa (Full timers)and Marei De'avdin Tovin that for them they have to learn Perek Echad Shachris

4)please dont compare Pumpedisa to mandated Yeshivos and Chavrusa tumults. Gevalt!

5)Who said a Yeshiva is supposed to cater the select few Yissaschars, when a Yissaschar will learn in a shtibel too?

6)Ribon shel Olam! where does Reform thought come in here. Chazal always where living down here with the facts on the ground. Thats why we have a Pruzbul. Mechiras Chametz.and thats why Torah Shebiksav was written down in the first place.

TODAYS VERSION OF YESHIVOS IS A CREATION FOR THE RABBIM

Friendly Anonymous said...

When I review those (most convenient) parsha sheets that my kids bring home from school, I'm struck by how little the teachers give over from the Rishonim, e.g. Ramban and Abarbanel.

Now the Ramban I can perhaps understand, because if you cut him out, you get rid of chassidus. But the Abarbanel? And if you don't like rishonim, what about the Malbim?

The kids might come away with some nice magic stories, but nothing that will stand up to the logical questions of the Ramban and Abarbanel(or DovBear :)).

Anonymous said...

Like whatsever
"The chiyuv of limud Hatorah is relative to your capabilities. If u live ur live like a yid you are mekayim Lo Yamush."
you are correct that limud hatorah is to your capabilities, that only means that 2 bochurim will learn the same 2 hours one will become a Shagas Arye the other a Debrecener Rov, but the Chiuv of hours of learning and no devorim betalim is on both the same, their is no heter for a bochur to go Botul for one second, Whatever happens to him after marrige is something else, if he did not grow to be a Rov etc.. the torah wants he should do Massa Mattan Bemuna and then all the concepts of the chassidic seforim kick in, that he also doing Dira Betachtonim in Chabad language or in the language of the Meor Einem it doesnt matter, but as a bochur he has no right to go botul for a second,this is the torah view Veloi Theai Mechulefeth.
Now getting back to the Rav Kraus argument,When a bochur a Masmid applies to a Yeshiva even he does not have a Shagas Arye head, every Yeshiva will grab him,they love this kind of Bucherim because they add a lot to a Tzuras Beis Medrash,the problem is with the so so masmid with not the greatest head, why should they accept him, and why is he crying when he actualy can mends his way.He is talking very simplistic which it is not,

Anonymous said...

How old are your kids, that you would like they should delve in the philosophy of rishonim.
what about Ramban and Chasidus? I am not getting it

LikeWhatever. said...

Reb Anon 10:46

" but the Chiuv of hours of learning and no devorim betalim is on both the same, their is no heter for a bochur to go Botul for one second, "

I wont disagree that the above quotation is the today-held Litvishe Perspective. What emerges from this dry viewpoint is that Hashem made a failing system. He made a chiyuv which is not bechdei sheyasu!

in this vein of thinking the 999 who arent 'Yotze' are proof that we only care for the success of 1. Us 999'rs (including you and me blogging on The Tzig)are Failures. We r gonna get lots of Glowing hot Gachlei Resamim on our palates. The Blisters r gonna hurt and we will yell and shriek in pain. Then the Saneiger will come and be melamed schus that we had ADD and that we were machzik Lakewood and Kupath Ha'Ihr...

Uh Huh..

Chassic Philosophy was primarily based on uncovering the depth of Torah. Namely that its all about being connected to Hashem. It is clear from all sifrei chassidus (Including the Alter Rebbe) that The Perek Echad Shachris. The Tillim Yid (Or Bocher). The Morei De'Avdin Tavin who does Mitzvos instead of learning. The Haddasim. The Aravos. Are all connected to Hashem in the realest ways.

All mamarei Chazal regarding limud hatorah are translated into "Connection to Hashem Thru Torah". And Toarh is melashon Ho'Raah to teach u how to live. Its not just about being a lamdan the big black books.

Chassidus (and it seems u belong to the ideology) taught us the workable, practical way what Limud Hatorah means.

In Me"Ohr Einayim Limud Hatorah is very real.Its even actually doable!

Anonymous said...

Like whatever,
You are correct that the sin of bittul torah is almost impossible to survive. Chazal Say that only four died for reason of the curse of the Nochesh. Yes we have sins and the Alter Rebbe writes in Tanye Perek 26 that for regular people life was set up that way to be in the constant struggle. and only a Baal Gaveh believes different. Please don't talk stupidity that certain chazals are for misnagdim only .The idea of Chassidus was not to be lenient on Limud hatorah, I don't believe that all the Geonim as the Koznitzer Maagid, Berdichever Rov, Menorah Hathorah, The brothers Reb Shmelke and the Hafloah, the Baal Hatanye would join chassidus if it would have such a message. I am not talking the Rebbes of later Genaration, as the Sanzer, Zhikover,Avnie Nezer, Chidushie Horim, It is all not contradicting their view that the pashtus of the tehilim yid is very Choshev, and that the lamdan should not be arrogant on the backs of the Amcho Yidden. But their demand for torah was not diluted one iota from the misnaged, unless time was well spent on Avodas hatefila.

Anonymous said...

(or DovBear :)).

just so you know, he's not in the same category

Friendly Anonymous said...

Anon 1:42

I really need to figure out how to insert emoticons in my comments

Anonymous said...

no, friendly, you did a good job, that's just me losing my grip on my sense of humor again

Anonymous said...

LikeWhatever,

Do you know how the inside of a Maharshah looks like? It is precisely because of people like you that Chassidim (some of them) are bust with Haluchah Lmassah, because it is practical and seems more relevant than learning useey dibur imivatel dibbur. That is a tragedy.

Rebbetzin said...

Love the ramble.

Anonymous said...

Anon
I think Chassidim are still the last ones that learn Marsha, check it out when was the last time the Marsha was mentioned in the halls of Brisk

Anonymous said...

Anon
"I think Chassidim are still the last ones that learn Marsha, check it out when was the last time the Marsha was mentioned in the halls of Brisk."

Chasidim have discovered a Maharsha on kodshim?

Anonymous said...

yes
it is in oiz vehodor gemora

Anonymous said...

"yes
it is in oiz vehodor gemora"

Brisk doesn't like oiz vehodor...

Anonymous said...

Reb Duvid Oich nit?

Anonymous said...

Dunno. Put he's probably too old to get used to a new gemarah, barring the changing the tzurah of the daf issue.

LikeWhatever said...

Anons Shelit"a

Two more mareh mekomos. 1 is a letter from the Igros Mitteler Rebbe about the preferance of working on the field after 13. Its in Cheilik 1 amud 313

2nd is a letter from R Asher Stoliner printed in Beis Aharon
Amud 147 where he hocks against learners and the preferance of working and that working is the ikker halimud. Check it out! They say the heavier stuff was sensored out...

As for the jab about seeing the inside of Maharsha. Yes BH we actually still learn the Holy Maharsha. Actually when i was in Yeshiva the Maharsha was regularly attacked based on Brisker methodology. Brisk and Maharsha never really hit it off that well...

The notion that i am belitteling limud Hatorah is absurd. you alone have quoted a listing of the Koznitzer Maagid, Berdichever Rov, Menorah Hathorah, The brothers Reb Shmelke the Hafloah, the Baal Hatanye etc

These very same Masters taught alternative ways for the simple yid to be part of Limud Hatorah. One of them was thru being an ehrliche Yid practicing Hamachlif Parah Bachamor and learning Perek Echad Shachris, and saying Tehillim.

The reality remains that we practice based on Koach Ho'Roah and Puk Chazi...and in that regard Yidden who learnt the most they where capable and worked hard for a living WERE NOT CONSIDERED A BEDIEVED!

Friendly Anonymous said...

I am a Yisoschor al pi Birchas Ya'akov: "and he saw that tranquility was good and that the land is sweet, and he bent his shoulder for a yoke, and he became a taxed worker".

Anonymous said...

Like whatsever
Since we are at this subject, did you ever see Abish Shur article on the different view between the Alter Rebbe and the rebbes of Karlin regarding the Lomdim,It is a good mamar

LikeWhatever said...

where is this Abish Shurs article.
Im very interested!

Anonymous said...

the article is in Bies aron Vyisroel, but unfortunately I dont remember the volume #, you probably can search it in oitzer hachochma

LikeWhatever said...

tx. will look up. The letter from Reb Asher Stoliner is powerfull! u saw it?

Anonymous said...

LW
You are like the guy who can't learn slow and advocates for learning fast - it is worthless, because he is just trying to save face.
How do you have so much time to blog, why aren't you out there swapping an ox for an ass?

Is the oxen used in buisenss transactions all the same; the "same ox here the same ox there"?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"because it is practical and seems more relevant than learning useey dibur imivatel dibbur. That is a tragedy."
why is it a tragedy? most of klal yisroel learned shulchan oruch and masehctes that are related to halacha. It is the Brisker that started the new trend of learning subjects that are only hilchoso Lemshicho,I remember the Choves Halevovas writing against this phenomenon. is not Birchas Hapieras earlier on the list then Minochas?
HR

LikeWhatever said...

Anon 1;16.
"How do you have so much time to blog, why aren't you out there swapping an ox for an ass?"


HaHa

MAYBE im a frustrated Kollel Yungerman who got hold of a BlackBerry. Everytime i go chap a smoke or a coffee, i check the Tzig.

Or i might be a successfull BaalHabos who made it in Low realestate market, so i have time to drink the Tzigs milk. MAYBE.

MAYBE im a burnt out Shaliach shaliach in Idaho takin a break.

or I migjht just be your sons Menahel checking the Tzig right before i review your sons application. MAYBE.

Hey, I might even be ur local supermarket cashier swapping OXen and chapping a peek into the circus tent in between customers.MAYBE.

Hey You Never Know...

LikeWhatever

Benny said...

I like the way you ended this silly post "But what do I know"
Emmes, you know nothing, though you meant it cynically.
Ah groiseh yesh.
Lesch.