It used to be that Chabad had a friend in the Modern Orthodox, with both groups shunned by the Yeshiva world. Chabad was also supportive of the Jewish State, although not in the "religious sense" of the MO community, but who was splitting hairs? The Rebbe was the only "black-hat" Rabbinic personality that supported Rabbi Soloveitchik of Boston, and so on.
Now, that too seems to be over with. No more can Chabad count on the support of the Modern Orthodox community. We'll try and get to the bottom of this change of events.
Let's start with this genius, Out of step Jew, who thinks that Marvin Schick hasn't gone far enough. Not only is Chabad insincere and only in it for the money and PR, they're corporate monsters too. They lure strangers to their "brand", always seeking out the lonely, anti-social types, blah, blah, blah. It's bad enough when it comes from another "kiruv" group, or from some disgruntled ex-Chabadnik, but do we have to take this nonsense from this guy too?
There are those that hate Chabad sooo so much that they cannot say a good word about them. If they need to travel overseas and need to come on to the service of a Shliach, they'll find some problem like he didn't eat Shalsoh Seudos, or that he had a mixed Kiddush, or his wife wasn't wearing a hostess-robe to the Friday night meal. But I always thaught that came only from the haters and not from the bystanders who were force-fed the hate, but I was naive.
If you don't like a certain Rabbi because you feel that he came to your town and lured some people away SAY SO! chances are however, that the Rabbi never gave those people the time of day for some reason like their daughter married a goy. Don't downplay the Mesiras Nefesh, Harbotzas Torah and Yahadus as well as Gemilas Chesed that's performed daily.
How about the organizations like Aish and Or Somayach that pull into town with a well-paid Rabbi and an unlimited source of funds who first lets it be known that he's the AUTHENTIC Jew in town, after the Shliach had to raise his own bread money for 20 years. He then proceeds to destroy everything the poor fellow worked for. Why is there no outcry over that?!
It would not be fair to paint all of MO with the proverbial "broad brush", but the phenomenon definitely seems to be growing. I guess they're becoming more "black-hat" after all.... My only question is when did they suddenly start caring about Torah, Yiddishkeit, and Ahavas Yisroel?
UPDATE 1/22/06. Rabbi YD Soloveitchik at the Farbrengen of Yud Shvat 5740.
There are two sides two every story....
ReplyDeletePR can be a double-edged sword. If you have a big PR machine it could help you sometimes, but you can become a big target too.
ReplyDeletevery true, off tune.
ReplyDeleteChitas: I'm not sure which side you're looking to hear and of which story.
or maybe you're naive now....of course you know that there are so many angles....for instance, then it was prior to the times (overt) messianism and now we are post- messiah; then we there also were some who were "friends" but the friends were vocal enough to set the tone; today they can gather their energy for such a futile task...
ReplyDeletethen, there was like a two-way street where there was a mutual recognition at least an ad-hoc level for aparticular issue where there was clear recognition that the other is a "partner"; today it's an one-way street where we wish they should sing our praises in our everlasting mission of self-aggrandizement; they are not yet ready for such a mission...and simply back then they were not so awware of our 'chassidishe" loshon horah's of how "kalim...prutzim..." they are and how great we are...with the advent of the internet we have brought that in the open...so that have a better feeling how we "really" think of them... and so much more...
but you already knew and know all of that...and still...
food
ReplyDeletedon't talk with your mouth full.
Listen here people. If too much PR was the problem then say you don't like the fact that every event needs to be advertised and photographed ad nauseum. Just don't come and tell me that it's worthless and for the wrong reasons. That just shows that you're an אומפארגינער
ReplyDeletewhatever the word is in English.
As fat as the MO go; part of it is probably the Yeshiva influence, which is good for the most part, but bad in this sense.
All this just as I was starting to "like" these people. I was impressed with the sincerity of some of the MO people that I came in contact with, the good Middos, The love of Torah, and the all-around character. But, if this what lies behind the facade then, sigh.......
ReplyDeleteTzig:More evidence of how good that 'brainwasher' was.
ReplyDeleteYou have decided that your last bastion of friends have started to realize that the finger they have given to Lubavitch has been chomped up, now Lubab inc. wants EVERYTHING. You,your children, your money, even your old nusach Ashkenaz siddur.This before we mention some 'minor' details regarding their 'beliefs':The Rebbe is all or some of the following:'Creator' of the world,moshiach and 'alive', moshiach and at the 'ohel' (not zatsal ch'v),Moshe Rabbeinu of the dor or 'merely' Nosi hador.
Now let us think:If you come into a room and everybody moves away and makes faces are they:Ingrates OR maybe you had an accident with dog poop?
You are blaming the whole world, without giving a single thought to 'why'
VML
ReplyDeletenice to have you back :(
I appreciate your words of wisdom, but here's where your wrong. It's basically like a guy who sees all the problems regarding womens' dress and behavior, KeVayochol in the name of Kanoyus. It's basically the root of his problem, he's got a problem with Shmiras Eynayim. Here too you see everything as being the fault of Lubavitch.
There hasn't been a major fallout between Chabad and the MO. If you think they've been too pushy in advancing Chabad, then say so. Is that reason to attack and smear in the public arena? Everybody knows that part of what Chabad does is spread what it practices, yes, because they believe that their way is the best way. For the most part they get along fine.
So if that's the problem then say that they're tooo pushy, which hapens some times, but don't generalize. These people have a real problem with Chabad, and it's not a pushy Shliach.
Answer the question please....
ReplyDeleteWhy does everyone seem to have a problem with Lubavitch?Why?
Maybe they have a point................
vml,
ReplyDelete"Everybody" has a problem with Lubavitch for exactly the same reasons "everybody" has a problem with the Jews. And leshitoscho they, too, may “have a point”...
Berl
ReplyDeleteI couldn't have said it better myself.
VML
ReplyDeleteLet's take your logic a step further; let's ask ourselves, all religious Jews, why is it that the irreligious hate us so much? So much so that in Israel a secular Jew has more in common and feels more at home with an ARAB than with a frumme yid! Is it our fault? are we too gredy when it comes to gov't money and no army service? Is this something we need to change, or are we content as is?
ht,Frum Jews need to become nicer. It is as simple as that.
ReplyDeleteThere are some shluchim who have become self aggrandizing. But then there are some who are the most self scarificing Jews in the world, they live on nothing, and they do it all for the klal. I have known of situations where shluchim have perservered under circumstances that most of us would not have chosen to endure, without heat in the winter, without lights and running water, let alone without good chinuch for their kids. Chabad is big and complex, there is lots of variety of everything, good and bad, exisitng side by side, within it. But ultimately, the movement on a whole has had the most positive effect on world Jewry than any other, bar none, in the last oine hundred years. And that is what sticks in the craw of our enemies--success breeds jealousy.
Berl,
ReplyDelete"Everybody" has a problem with Lubavitch for exactly the same reasons "everybody" has a problem with the Jews. And leshitoscho they, too, may “have a point”..."
amazing...i thought that "everybody" has a problem with jews bexause 'esav soney soneh leyakov"; they have an essential sinah to jews. That you make this analogy to "everybody" that has a dislike to L is amazing and a testimony of how L have not practiced the toras haBal shemtov and Raboyseeyno Nesseeynu about the ahavas yisroel in general and especially not perpetuating new heights in sinas yisroel...it's in a way implementing r"l the false claim of those who say nishtakcho toras habal shem tov"...
HT
ReplyDelete"Let's take your logic a step further; let's ask ourselves, all religious Jews, why is it that the irreligious hate us so much? So much so that in Israel a secular Jew has more in common and feels more at home with an ARAB than with a frumme yid! Is it our fault? are we too gredy when it comes to gov't money and no army service? Is this something we need to change, or are we content as is?"
While each case can and should be analyzed on it's own merits, (and maybe one "hate" has some justification and the other does not and therefore one does not prove the other), i for one am not convinced that we may not need to change in listening what others are saying or complaining. Perhaps, even if we're right in our claims, does not negate that they have a point. Your case in point, may perhaps be one of these cases. While you may think that the religious are right in their claims, it does not necessarily negate that the not yet religious have no taynoh and side of the coin. Perhaps if "we" (including those who claim to be the heirs of the Darkey of the Baal shem Tov and our Rebbe who inherited to us ahavas yisroel) would empathize and show *real* ahavas yisroel in real life situations where it affects their daily lifestyle, where whether we or they like it or not: they send their children for 3 years of service where there is a possibility that they may not be back c"v c"v when we do not have that experience. So if we would empathize with all these yidden (and practice what we preach really and not in stupid blogs claiming that we are *it* and the H with everyone else) then and maybe then we would be able to impart really what chassidus has given us and not that we utulize chassidus to aggrandize ourselves and write off how everyone else "hates" us and are low lifes..."haim zeh tachlis veikor hachassiduss" to write stupid blogs how everyone else is so devoid of life...how empty are we...
food
ReplyDeleteyou ramble a bit, but your I hear part of your point. Nowhere are we saying that Chabad is perfect as is now or even close to it.
Mr Tzig,
ReplyDeleteThe fact remains that Chabad has been very successful in building bridges with MO leaders. (There was an interesting article about this floating around Channuka time.)
I do think that Lubavitch and the MO have forges a better relationship than Lubavitch and any other segment of the frum world.
There are many reasons for this, some of them are as follows:
* Both are willing to discuss and question matters that are usually avoided.
* Both work with the less religious
* Both are open minded to new ideas
* Both are very rationalist approaches
* Both function without any real centralized leadership
There are more reasons... But those are the first few that popped into my head.
Friend
ReplyDeletethat's good news, maybe I was accentuating the negative here?
Friend:Lubavitchs has common denominators with the MO true (and with other Jews btw)but I had to chuckle about this:'* Both are very rationalist approaches'
ReplyDeleteChabad 'rational'?Half of Chabad believes the Rebbe is alive, the other half is too busy writing letters to his 'igros' books,they all believe that he is the 'Nosi Hador' (some made up term that means 'leader of the generation' Apparently the job qualification includes being a leader of the Chabad dynasty but no requirement to be alive...)
Hopefully Hirshel will not censor this.I believe that the following will help Lubavitchers understand what bothers us and what we find so spiritually dangerous.
ReplyDeleteHirhurim has a small snippet on Lubavitch's newest Meshichist turned Elokist,something that bodes ill for those thinking that the Meshichist are harmless, well meaning wackos (despite being a large chunk of Lubavitch including 'rabbis')
'Idolatrous Lubavitcher Messianist
The current "owner" of Heshy's House has started a new blog called Rebbe-YKVK our Righteous One. I wish this was a joke.
No, I don't think that he is representative of mainstream Habad.
- posted by Gil Student @ 7:32 AM Comments (108) | Trackback (0) | En Español'
This is the address http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_hirhurim_archive.html
The posters comments are what are really important to see.
"First of all, no one is Lubavitch thinks less of other sects, that's ridiculous."
ReplyDeleteAs someone who is very familiar with Jewish communal work, I can certify that you are completely 100% absolutely wrong. Chabad NEVER works with anyone else. They generally do not accomodate others, and they actively undermine others with no guilt whatsoever. Are you really unaware that in virtually EVERY community where there is Chabad that they do not have good relations with the general frum community? Are you unaware that thought it is not openly spoken of, virtually all frum rabbis and community leaders consult each other about their 'Chabad problem' that they all have in their town?
A litvish person might recommend a chassidish school to someone, or a chassidish person might consult a litvish rov. Chabad ONLY works with Chabad. Virtually no Chabad Rabbi will encourage any organization or program which is not under Chabad auspices (unless there is no Chabad option). Every sect of Judaism attended the Siyum HaShas, except Chabad. This list can go on for pages.
Not only this, it is VERY well known that Chabad theology thinks less of other movements. Why else is a Chabad historical event considered "Rosh Hashana Lechassidus"? Does a Chabadsker really believe that a person can achieve shleimus without a kesher to a Rebbe or Nasi Hador? There are enough Chabadskers who are honest enough to share what they believe. you arent fooling anyone.
If you deny all of the above it is simply because you are young and unaware of what really goes on. you may see the few exceptions as proof of Chabad's openness, but everyone else knows the reality.
"Second, we all send letters of prayer to a wall in Israel. We all go to Kaver of Tzadikim and daven for things. "
Yes, and Chabad folks ask a dead Rabbi their questions and believe that they get answers by opening to a random page of his writings. There is a large gap between doresh es hameisim and praying to G-d, no?
"Third, PR problem? Go http://www.jpost.com/servlet/ Sat...lkbackHeadlines
">through these at last count almost 180 responses to that spiteful article and at least 90 percent overwhelmingly coming to Chabads defense, not all chabadniks."
I specifically said, PR problem with the frum. Your responses prove my point 100%. Instead of addressing the issues, you see the problem as fabricated. All Chabad ever does (and what you did here) is give lame justifications for Chabad's practices and accuse those who dont like it as 'haters'. The problem you are ignoring is that Chabad has alienated almost the entire rest of the frum world. So like it or not, that is the reality. So either Chabad can take a saner approach to PR or simply continue to respond as you have...
Dude | 01.11.06 - 1:22 pm | #
VML
ReplyDeletethere's a sephradi guy who used to be a Satmarer and who now converted to Islam, do we blame Satmar for that? I know, you'll say that he didn't hear about Islam in Satmar, but neverthless, they do stress anti-Israel, so he just took it a step further.
Ariel is just that. someone who decided that he knows better and nothing you can tell him will change him.
VML
ReplyDeleteyour proof is like saying that all Goyim will complain about their Jewish emplyers or landlords. That somehow proves that all Jews are thieves.
I would dare say that in most cases where there is another Jewish presence in town the Rabbio has a problem with some young shnook coming in and actually DOING something regarding the unaffiliated.
VML
ReplyDeleteyou cannot have it both ways. Do you want Lubavitchers who speak to dead people at your Siyum HaShas? do you want them to participate and infiltrate your communities, bringing their ideology to your pure, innocent children. If not, then SHUT UP!
Most of the non-Chabad frum are complacent, smug, and self satisifed. They insulate themselves from the rest of the Jews in their towns, seeing themselves as an elite, concentrating on their own self perfection.
ReplyDeleteImagine how they feel when a Chabad shaliach comes to town. The shaliach wants to wake everyone up, to get out of their comnfort zones, to start seeing the non-frum as real Jews, and urges everyone to take responsibility for each other. He brings up uncomfortable subjects, such as the need for more Jewish education for the unaffiliated, the need to make Judaism alive and relevant, the need to fight intermarriage, the need to communicate with the non-Jewish society around them in a meaningful and reciprocal manner. In short, the Chabad shaliach serves as a wake up call to the non-Chabad frummers, and this makes them feel inadequate and guilty over what they are NOT doing. This is the root of their problem, which is not a 'Chabad problem' at all but, rather Chabad serves as a catalyst that brings their own problems to everyone's attention. They feel threatened and challenged.
HT,
ReplyDeleteEven if in his perspective he thinks that that Rabbi is just jealous that the young shnook is actually "doing" something for the unnalifiated, it is not an excuse for him to totally disregard the rabbi who, while not doing what he is planning to to do, still did something for some people before he came, and that entitls him for the proper respect.
I wonder and ask: if prior to 3 tammuz this aggrevieness and total disregard for others existed as today? i'm actually convinced that it did not.
Just to add an interesting point: when the Rebbe Reinsitituted Aguch in 5749 he told them that one of the accomplishments of aguch should be that they will be a bridge between the frumme and the non frummer. b"h "machtzoh" was accomplished, the bridge between chabad and the not yet chabad; we are only missing the other half...which is probably not important today as they are like the "goyim" who "hate" us with such a passion...
food,
ReplyDeleteWhat would fall into the catagory of 'disrespect' by the Chabad shaliach towards the other frummers? Can you give any examples? ASAIK most shluchim simply don't bother with the other frummers at all, or if they do, they generally show them enough respect, sometimes more than they deserve consdiring the terrible slander they spread about Lubav..
it's a catch 22, and in many cases the Rabbonim have preconceived notions about Lubavitch in general.
ReplyDeletechitas said...
ReplyDeleteht,Frum Jews need to become nicer. It is as simple as that.
I think a good place to start may be by all of us signing on to:
http://endthemadness.org/