Tomorow will be the 70th Yohrtzeit of the Rogatchover z"l. He incidentally shares that Yohrtzeit with the Chid"a z"l, 130 years later. The title "Sar HaTorah" was bestowed upon him by the Frierdige Rebbe, N"E.
They planned a national Holiday in honor of him
The Levaya
The Jewish Observer's take
Google Links
Now, before you think it childish that I'm claiming him as one of ours, remember this; He was the Rov of the Chassidishe Kehillah in Dvinsk for over 40 years, and received a Brochoh from the Tzemach Tzedek to be a Talmid Chochom. He also apologized to the Rebbe that Chassidus Farshteyt er nit azei, because on that he didn't receive a Brochoh. Also, Kamenecki in MOAG goes as far as comparing and NUMBERING the Gedolei HaDor and who was the true Sar HaTeyreh.
א בושה אין א חרפה אז מיט אמאל האט קיינער וואס צו זאגין
ReplyDeleteI can promise you that he understood more about chasides than 'he' knew of nigleh.
ReplyDeleteSince you claim him as 'yours' I'm curious to know if he quotes any of the Lubavitcher rebbes.The only 'acharon' that I have heard he quotes is the Chacham Tzvi.
He may not quote the Rebbes, but he did have this to say:
ReplyDeleteאלי'נקע האט געהאט א גוטע קאפ, אבער לערנען? לערנען האט געקענט נאר די אלטער רבי! You do know who he meant, right?
there is a very sharp loshon he writes to a misnagid in a teshuva re hallel on pesach night '...but what can i write to a misnagid like you, for if you were a chosid like myself, i would reveal to you the hidden secrets, but for a misnagid like you the above is sufficient, especially since you are a magid umatif rachmono litzlan'!
ReplyDeletedownunda, anyone who knows his signon knows that was written "al derech hatzachus"
ReplyDeleteI do hope you two live "down under"....
ReplyDeleteThe Rogatchover was a very staunch and proud Chossid, multitudes of stories will attest to that, not that this is some sort of competition.
ReplyDeletemigdal oz has a lengthy write up.
ReplyDeleteI guess the one good thing of the Rogatchover being a Chossid was that the Misnagdim האבען זיך ניט איינגערעדט אז נאר זיי זענען מחותנים מיט די תורה, a tradition they carry on today as well.
ReplyDeleteAm I allowed to quote Mr. B.G. the last of the " Royal line" : grandfather said that "the Rogochover iz nit kin Chasid, ober er iz a velts-Gaon"."I heard this from the neched several times. (The YU archives has a shtikel Teyre written to the Rogochover from the neched).
ReplyDeleteNow before anyone gets excited, I do not know how "Grandfather" was using the word chasid eg in what sense hiskashrus etc..
See Dr. Rivka Blau's book about her father Rav Teitz for more on this although grandfather's name again is not mentioned in regarsd to this matter.
Lets look at the Rogachover's memale makom, he was Rabbi Alter Safran-Fuchs a galitzianer Illui , but not a Chabad person and as far as I can tell not a Chasid mekusher to any of the zaddikim in Galicia even though he studied with reb Moshele Boyaner.HaYaD.
Why did not the Rogochover pick a Chabad rav as his successor ?
The Rogochover's son in law Rav Zitron the rav of Petach Tikveh(and a chess wiz) was also a olemsher lamdan.
So while I am sure the Rogochover was a sharfer Yid with a proud identity of his Chassidic heritage , one still has no proof that he was a Chasid bemelo muvan hamilla anymore than the Mitnagdim can prove that some of the Litvishe gedolim alive after world war 1 were really Mithnagdim bemlo muvan hamila.Zecher zaddik Livrocha
Kurenitzer
ReplyDeleteThanks for writing, but I'll need to take issue with some of your words.
1) Many Chassidim had eydemer nit-Chassidim, מאיזה טעם שיהי', that doesn't make him "ois Chossid".
2) He was Kovea his Memale Mokom?
3) even if he was, maybe he chose the best man for the job, not basing it on his affiliation?
4) Maybe BG meant that he's a Kopuster?
if i was a bit more cynical, and i was posting on mentalblog i would suggest that
ReplyDelete"3) even if he was, maybe he chose the best man for the job, not basing it on his affiliation?"
is a compelling proof that he wasn't lubavitch
Bitter, nice vort and true.
ReplyDeleteAnybody who knows any history , knows that the Rogatchover had no real shaychus to chasidim.He was rov of the 'chasidim' in Dvinsk, but all that meant was they davened nusach of the chasidim and followed some minhogim.Basically, there were few discernible 'chasidim' in Dvinsk.
For a certain time as a lad he shared the Bais Halevy as his rebbe,together with his son R'Chaim Soloveichik .
B'kitser he had no chasidishe rebbes or much shaychus with chasidim.
Lubavitchs claim to fame is that his brother studied in Tomchei Temimim and that the father was shayach to Kopust.
Btw tzig, where did you see the 'Elinkeh' quote? It better be better than Bais Moshiach mag.
Certainly the Rogochover was a Chabad chasid in many ways, I do not contest that. However I doubt that he was mekushar to any of the rebbes (including the last Nasi of Kopust - Rabbi Shmaryahu Neyach Schneersohn ).
ReplyDeleteLets see do you consider rav Shlomo Aronson the Tel Aviv chief rabbi and Rav Shlomo Landress chief rabbi of Ramat gan as Chabad.Would you consider rav Yuda Leib Zirelsohn HAYAD the great gaon and zaddik of Kishinev as a Chabad chasid . Perhaps ? How about Rav Shmaryahu Leib Medalie of Vitebsk-Moscow HAYAD ?
Of course in my arguements with the yeshiva world they are all evidence of the fertile ground Chabad planted for growth in Nigle, and thats the greatness of the Rogochover and Chabad he was not a yesh miAyin, he was a growth of a chabad enviorement.
By the way in a general chassidic journal a number of years ago there was a great story of how Reb Berel Gorfinkel HAYAD of Kurenitz "bested" none other than the ogochover in learnign. Another example of how Chabad was fertile ground for shteygen in lernen.
Gibberish and more Gibberish. Why does it bother you that he was a Chossid? Does it get in the way of the Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim of his day? Do all Geonim HAVE to be Litvishe?
ReplyDeleteDo all geonim have to be Lubavitch?
ReplyDeleteIf most Lubavitcher were just normal and sane, it would be a good start
Roshei Yeshivos from Chabad families.
ReplyDeleteAhron ben Schneur Zalman Pinnes(Kotler)
Yakov Ruderman
Nesanel Quinn
Others from Chasidishe families.
Steipler Gaon - Hornisteiple
Gedalya Schorr - Ger/Sadigur?
anymore?
Reb Moshe Feinstein writes in the volume 1 of Igros that his zaide was a Koidenover chasid.
ReplyDeleteReb Yitzchak Elchonon of Kovna was the son an Amdudrer chasid.
The Bais halevi bezivug rishon was the son in law of a chabad chasid.
Rabbi Mayer Chodosh also came from a Chabad background.
Rav Shach was a rosh in the karliner yeshiva in White russia himself.
But in fact in Reisen it was not unusual for families of Chassidim to be meshadech with eylimshe families.
My point is that Chabad was th fertile ground in which many gedolim in Nigle grew up and that includes the Rogochover tregardless if he were a Chasid bepoel.
By the way I checked with a professor of art his , who also agrees the kasket on the Rogochover photo was "touched up"
ReplyDelete"Touched up", meaning painted black when it was really brown? Or is it just an old picture that was understandably fixed?
ReplyDeleteThe issue is not the Rogochover.
ReplyDeleteBut why Chabad is unable to establish a place like Lakewood in the US for bachurim and yungeleit.
It should have 3 0r 4 shiurim and a kibbutz; with top notch roshe yeshiva like Rabbis YY Kalmenson, ezra Shochet, laibel Shapiro and someone to give shimush in Horoeh.
In 10 years time Chabad will produce a cadre of roshe yeshiva and morei Horoeh on par with the world of the yeshivas and with the morei zedek in other chassidic communities.
Kurenitzer
ReplyDeleteCan a movement focus on 2 things at once? If outreach is the main focus don't all other things remain on the backburner?
BP
ReplyDeleteI wasn't CH"V advocating abandoning other ideals and objectives, I was just thinking out loud, asking whether one doesn't diminish priority of the other.
Chabad has enough people for everything. if it can produce ... besides shluchim , it has many guute keppelich who can be machzir atora leyoshna (like rabbis Zerelson, Noe,Telushkin, Zevin, Don Yichye, Y, Landau, MB Rivkin, Orenstein(Kosel rav), etc etc, all of whom were respected by der eylem.
ReplyDeleteI am sure there are many in Chabad who respect and love "lerenen".
I heard that in 1927 when the rebbe left Russia he told the mashgichim in Nevel Reb Nissan (Nister) and my uncle Reb Zalman Kurnitzer (nigle) that they should not live beshalom "yeder eyne zoll monen zayn zach"
Chas veshalom that I am saying there are no lomdim in Lubavitch there are plenty. But we need to give them kavod .
I think Rabbi Reitport and his chiburim and lomdus does more for Lubavitch in BP than all the Moade Yomtov pamphlets and Heichal menachem literature. The velt sees a 1st class lamdan and rav ! they respect that !
That may be true Kurenitzer, but they always manage to find an excuse and make him the exception. Then they'll say that he's not a real Chossid.
ReplyDeleteThe Rogatchover, R' Zevin, and R' Landau were all Kopuster Chassidim. When the last Kopuster Rebbe past away, they all returned to Lubavitch and became mekushar to the Lubavitcher Rebbeim. There are kamah sippurim that show their Hiskashrus and Bittul torward the Rebbeim.
ReplyDelete'The title "Sar HaTorah" was bestowed upon him by the Frierdige Rebbe, N"E.'
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe said that anyone who says N"E on the Frierdiker Rebbe is like condeming him to Siberia!
The Rogatchover was his own man, and not a Lubavitcher Chossid per see, but if he had a loyalty, it definetly was Chabad.
ReplyDelete