Reprinted from Aishdas.org
What I was referring to was the psychological crisis which overtook the (Kollel) Perushim (centered) community with the deflation of their messianic hopes for the year 1840. This was no small thing, as the fervor and expectations - that had been building for years - may well in fact have been the hidden engine which drove the entire Aliyah movement from the Gra's circle which perceived that former era restraints on active קירובי הקץ had been lifted Mi'shomayim.
(ed. note: Ironic that some of the fiercest anti-Zionists today are descendants of those Perushim, no?)
Indeed, the very appearance עלי אדמות of the גאון himself, whose
extraordinary talent could only be that of a supernatural emissary, was a
sure portent of shomayim's inauguration of this new era.
(ed. note: Sounds alot like the Baal Shem Tov's ideas and what his Talmidim thought of him, no?)
As 1840 approached things really got to a fever pitch. There were changes introduced to the נוסח התפלה - e.g. the verse התנערי מעפר קומי was purged from the
קבלת שבת service some years prior on the theory that the שכינה
had already gotten past the picking herself out of the dirt stage (and yes,
the very faint echo of Shabbatean era tampering with the ritual in
recognition of a new era does resonate.)
(ed. note: So who changed the Nusach HaTfiloh?)
When 1840 didn't work out, there was terminal funk. To give some inkling of the depths of despair which ensued, we might mention that there were at least two conversions to Christianity of members in good standing of the Kollel
Perushim. Just try to wrap your brain cells around an image of a couple of yidden in long beards and full get up, maybe a Gabbai of a shul in Williamsburg or B'nei Brak, suddenly deciding to sign up at the local priest's recruiting office, it just won't
come.
(ed. note: I have yet to see that happen in today's day and age, despite the dire predictions of those who wish it would happen)
BTW, the circle of the Gra's students had long maintained a לכאורה
bizarre, and much to the Sephardim's disgust, very friendly social
relationship the local Christian missionary establishment. ע"כ
Do any of my Lithuanian friends want to place blame for this group of people on anybody's shoulders?
What is the source for that stuff?
ReplyDeleteWhy did you delete a post about a Schneerson that went over to the Christians?It's only okay to write such things about snags,but you delete it if it's about a Lubavitcher?
Shame on you.
Keep on looking for dirt to throw at snags-you will get all dirty yourself in the process.
Snag,
ReplyDeleteYou are an incredible fool. There is no blogger that does not know aboyr the AR's son, R' Moshe - it is not news at all.
Additionally, you losers have nothing better to do than to accuse Lubavitch for any or every rachmunus case that may or may not exist.
The point here is to highlight your double standard - not to bash the GRA C"V. You, Snag, are the point of this post...
wow! reader, where have you been the last couple of weeks?
ReplyDeletewell-said, reader. The whole story with Reb Moshe is riddled with holes and inaccuracies, pointing to a hatchet job by Maskilim. It also was totally irrelevant to the story at hand.
ReplyDeleteI get it now.If someone writes that snags did something wrong,it's accepted here right away,no questions asked.But if a professor makes a study which concludes that a Lubavitcher did something similar,it suddenly becomes full of holes and unreliable and irrelevant.
ReplyDeletei get it:
ReplyDeleteyou think this guy pulled something out of his ear?
read this book
1840 was not a let down at all, shnas "tof resh" kol ha"tor" nishma beartzenu, was indeed the beginning stages of aschaltu degeulah, (not to be mistaken with the modern zionists belief and termanology of aschalteh degeulah) this termanology was written about by reb mendel and reb hillel shklover zt"l, based on the teachings and belief of the Gaon Zt"l, it is a continous long process (not the belief in a dead man being messiah) but the return to j-lem, those were indeed the beginning stages with the expansion and return of yishuv ashkenazim prushim in yrusalem rebuildig churvos j-lem and expanding the yishuv
ReplyDeleteshimon
ReplyDeleteI would say that it was a letdown, because they were waiting for much more than the beginning of a "process of geulah".
So a few self-proclaimed Perushim go to Israel and it suddenly becomes part of the "process of geulah"? please.
Why is Zionism different then? because it involved secular people? what about Reb ZH Kalisher, Reb Shmuel Mohilever and others who were in no way connected to the secular Zionist movement, why were most Gedolei Yisroel opposed to their movement?
It's an interesting study to see the clear list of death and/or destruction that seems to be the result of every messianic push in Jewish history. You can look at the fallout that resulted from every example!
ReplyDeleteAnd you don't have to even look simply at the extreme example of Shabbtai Tzvi, Yoshke, or Jacob Frank; you can take the many failed hopes such as Bar Kochba, or Talmidei HaGra in 1840, or the many individual examples of Tzaddikim that tried to force the process, and the tragic outcome.
This past Shabbos I saw a letter that the Rebbe wrote (back of Vol 15 Likkutei Sichos, towards the end) in opposition to the Mizrachi belief in aschalta degeula with the establishment of the State of Israel. What struck me was the way the Rebbe ended the letter, where the Rebbe writes (along the lines of): "And why should it bother me if people want to think that this is the beginning of Geula, even if it's not? Because with every false prediction of Geula tragic events come to the world."
With this in mind, and history supports it, shouldn't we - especially Lubavitchers - be wary of every one of the Moshiachistisms in history? And I include the Gra's Moshiachistin, Bar Kochba's Moshiachistin (which even the Snags must admit included R' Akiva), Lubavitcher Moshiachistin, or any of the other similar examples?
I used to think (until last week) that since it's NOT kfira to have a possibly erroneous belief this area, so let's live and let live. I used to think that if someone's Yiddishkeit is helped by their thinking geula has begun and Moshiach is their Moshiach of choice, than let them be. But now...
CE
ReplyDeleteIIRC the Rebbe adds the Loshon of "why should it bother me that Jews are singing and dancing and are happy" saying that the SOI is the Aschalta D'Geula. Yet, that is the mantra of Today's "peace-loving" Ahavas Yisroel'niks, let them believe what they want, it helps them in their Hiskashrus, yada yada yada. Shows you how much the masses understood the Rebbe...
You take something that some guy wrote from some internet site,without sources given,like its Toiras Moishe.You believe everything on any internet site?Abi to bash snags.Then you claim that it's in a book that hasn't been published yet.Vey iz mir.
ReplyDeleteIf people look where it's from they see it's from a Litvak basher.So it can't be totally accepted.Unless of course if you're a snag basher yourself.Sinah mikalkeles es hashurah.You snag bashers of the world give each other a free pass.
ReplyDeleteChoochem einer
ReplyDeleteit's taken from a book, I posted the link!
click here
HT
ReplyDeleteyou say "SElf proclaimed prushim", you dont realize how foolish you sound, who reb y. l. diskin Zt"l, reb nochum shadiker , reb zundel salant Zt"l, you even by neilah on yom kippur dont come to the dust between their toe nails,
חס ושלום
ReplyDeleteYou think I'm speaking about Reb Shua Leib and the other Tzaddikim?
Reb Shua Leib came much later, first of all, and was Lav Davke a member of the Talmidei HaGr"O community. I meant the Klal of people, and although they were very Choshuve people, Perushim is a bit of a stretch to call yourself, no?
Chassidim didn't give THEMSELVES the name, you know.
ce
ReplyDeletethe only tragedy of forcing messianism on to klal yisroel has been lubavitch messianism, you pathetic, the gaon's talmidim were meyashev eretz yisroel, your whole existence on this world the fact you are breathing is because of their heiliger merits!
More Misnaged dribble from B.P.
ReplyDeleteI can tell that you're an Hungarian Litvak, because no self-respecting Litvak would say that about the Talmidei HaGro. Vertlach like that have been hijacked from Chassidim who say it about the Baal Shem Tov V'Talmidov.
I would think conversions to XTianity is a tragedy, even if it only happened to 2 people, wouldn't you?
ReplyDeleteFirstly reb y.l did come from the talmidei hagea i believe it was his g-father, the perushim were called that way because they were moser nefesh literally in those days to be myashev e.y. and not lechol peiroseho, they were porush mehevlei olom hazeh , the brisker rov upon coming to je-lem said you can still see the pureness of these descendants you dont see such true yidden anywhere in the world
ReplyDeleteShimon טייערער
ReplyDeleteReb Shua Leib was Rov in Brisk, correct? is that in Israel?
His father also left to Israel but way after the 1840's.
You need a Chabadsker to teach you Litvishe history?
Fool, read any history book his fathers father was from the talmidei hagrah who came in 1809 to the holy land,after he married off his son who stayed behind in lita, he never came to israel but his g-son the holy Ry.l. did come and followed in his g- fathers ways. I believe its in the first chapter of the book on R Y.L.
ReplyDeleteRemember these were the people you called self proclaimed prushim, you#!#*$##!
they were all devout misnagdim im sure!!
ניתי ספר וניחזי
ReplyDeletenever mind that. We're speaking about a Kehillah that named itself Perushim with all the Pirushim Shebedovor. I think that's a bit much, no? and I'm not refering to Reb Shua Leib.
BTW, where were you when the human debris that comment here were besmirching the Talmidei HaBaal Shem Tov, like the Alter Rebbe and the Toldos Yaakov Yosef?
tzig, why did you meck aus my comment on where you got your source about messianism by talmidei hagro, which you saw on 'bechadrei chadorim'.
ReplyDeleteThere was nothing nasty in my comment,you are starting to get on my nerves with your censorship
Anonymous
ReplyDeletebecause I Didn't see it there, and if it's there I didn't read it.
HT
ReplyDeleteShimon is right i have the book in front of me its called "hasorof mebrisk" the first chapter talks about his fathers father a talmid of the Gaon ZT"l who came to israel after the Gaon's petirah.
was Reb Shua Leib born in Israel?
ReplyDeleteI've read the book and was quite taken by it, but it's been a while.
When did these Litvaks become such chassidim of their Rebbes? Honestly, the gedeilim pictures, cards, books, etc., rival any Chassidic movement in history! (And read the "reid" here in the tent.)
ReplyDeleteIf they were really Litvaks loyal to their traditions, volt nit geven azei shver, but really now...
These guys have adopted chitzoniusdiker chassidishe practices, modified them, and sold them at wholesale. What we have here is a bunch of Hungarians trying to be litvaks, and not even up to the task. Since I'm sure that their zeydes zenen geven fun chassidishe kreizen, they should go bet mechilei fun zeiyere ovois mit treren...
Ry>L was born in lita he came to israel in 1877, following his grandfathers footsteps who came in 1809, the grandfather came in his old age as one of the talmidei hagra after leaving behind his son reb Binyomi diskin (reb Y.L.'s father) behind in horodna lita.
ReplyDeletebased on the book "hasaraf mebrisk"
so I was right!
ReplyDeleteneither Reb Shua Leib nor his father were from the Perushim in Eretz Yisroel. What we can say is that probably not all Talmidei HaGro were Messianic in nature, although why else would they make Aliyah to EY? Maybe it was to show the Chassidim that "zei kenen eichet"?
:-)
HT
ReplyDeleteRY.L. was indeed a member of the prushim a descendant of the talmidei hagra people (like you call them) beimg that his fathers father was, that was all that shimon said
Is Perushim a club that you become a member of because your father was? I thought a Porush was someone who's actually פורש from wordly things....
ReplyDeleteI know, I know, "Chossid" also means something.
WHO WAS A GREATER PORUSH FROM WORLDLY THINGS THEN REB Y.L.,
ReplyDeleteyes he was of that community, drop the subject it aint gettin anywhere.
All I'm saying is that there was no "Kehillas HaPrushim" until Eretz Yisroel, and even that was done to counter the Chassidim. Btw, the Prushim found plenty of time to harrass the Chassidim in EY as well, despite them being Poresh from Inyonei Olam HaZeh. I guess that was being Lochem Milchamas Hashem, huh?
ReplyDelete(none of this words are meant about Reb Shua Leib zt"l)
Dr. Morgenstern in Israel has written many scholarly articles on TAR and the GRA and his talmidim and their Messianism . Alas I have not read them all.
ReplyDeleteI do recall reading that more than 2 people (Lo aleinu) gave up our faith.
Lets stop mentioning the son of the Baal hatanya. Whatever happened - happened , I can mention sons of leaders of the yeshiva world etc who also abandoned ship, but I will not
Messianism as any genuine spiritual element is very dangerous like the Torah itself according to chazal.Used correctly it can bring about the end of golus , incorrectly well well.
In my opinion the biggest issue facing us in the spiritual realm today is not Messianism , but the splintering of
Orthodox Jewry into many groups who have little tolerance for one another.
With the death of the Lubavitcher rebbe and people like Reb Moshe Feinstein ZTL, Rabbi Soloveitchik, we lost the alst great rabbonim who cared about all sectors of klal.
Does Dayan Weiss of the Eda think about the needs of Netivoth ?
Is Reb Shmuel Urbach concerned about the events in Satmar ? Do the YU rabbis care about pashute Yidden in Argentina , Brazil and Australia who have ben shut out of modern orthodoxy ? Does lakewood care about issues facing Jews in South Africa ?(I am sure they like their money )
I still recall men like Rav Henkin, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rabbi Pincus Teitz,the Lubavitcher rebbe, Dr. Samuel Belkin, Rabbi Aron Soloveitchik, and others who were respected by all chugim and were concerned for Klal Israel.
Today everyone has his chug and thats it.
We do have leaders now that are 'concerned' about all. Their name is different though - instead of gedolim they are called bloggers now - like this guy Tzig. ;-)
ReplyDeleteA froelichen Purim !
Why, Thank You "Reader", and AFP to you too.
ReplyDelete