Seeing that the Kol Menachem Gutnick Edition Chumash is now advertising their new "Shul edition" brought to mind a question: Is there a need for this at all?
There's a letter from the Rebbe in the '60's - IIRC to Shazar - where he addresses the then newly printed "Keter Aram Tzova" Chumash that was going to revolutionize the Chumash as we knew it, putting forth a new, "correct" version. The Rebbe opined then that things like this build greater divides between Yidden, whereas until now all Frum Yidden used one Chumash you'll now have the the Religious Zionists using a newer, better version, while the old timers will keep their old version. "All this for what?" was the Rebbe's cry, why divide Yidden even further.
This may sound like I'm not a team player, but this seems like a personal, albeit justified, fight with Artscroll for not including Lubavitch and the Rebbe in their Chumashim. That has since changed somewhat since the A/S Shul Chumash does bring the Rambam's opinion on the Meneyreh, the Lucheys on the book cover are square, and they bring the Chabad Minhog of Hafteyreh where it differs from the Ashkenazi Minhog. But why is there a need for a different Chumash at all? If you need a Peyrush on the Chumash take out the seyfer and learn it. That's the way we did it in the old days anyway, and we actually listened to the Leynen!.
Heichel Menachem in Yerushalayim just began to print a Bi'ur of the Rebbe on Chumash, Lefi Seder HaParshiyes. It looks like nice work, although most of these abridged versions do the Rebbe's Teyreh no justice. They fail to show the learner how this Bi'ur was reached and how this Vort came to be. It makes it look like the Teyreh Kval. There too the Chumash was omitted. Do you hear me Meir Gutnick?
Amen to that H!
ReplyDeleteReminds me of a Livishe Rosh Yeshiva I once had (needless to say, we didn't get on very well). He said:
ReplyDelete"Lubavitch has their own G-d, their own prophet, their own siddur, they even have their own Shulchan Aruch - Soon you'll see they'll have their own Chumash! I can't wait for the day, becuase there disconnection with the Jewish people will be complete."
Oh, you mean like the Litvisher who have their own Nusach Ashkenaz, their own Mishnah Berurah, their own Minhogim, and their own Chumash Torah Temimah?
ReplyDeleteright?
It all depends on who sets the standard.
A normal chabad shul does not use artscroll they can open a chu,ash and learn. It is used in the chabad houses. the " shul edition of Gutnick" is for chabad houses. They want to beat the kehot/cunin version the problem here is that gutnicks chumash is just based on rashi sichos kizturim so it does not give the array of input that the artscroll does. the kehos one has the mailah that part 1 of the commentary is rashi itself woven into the translation. part 2 are mini speeches on ideas on the parsha.
ReplyDeletesorry tzvi, the rebbe meant the nusach not the biurim, the rebbe made a theilim yosef yitzchok with just a few letters of the FR, Chumashim with biurim is a old chasidic thing, look at the old chumashim of the Beer Mayim Chaim (cherniwitzer)
ReplyDeleteThe old biurim on chumash like haamek dovor (netziv) or Malbim had peshat and nigleh, but artscroll is full of hashkafa based on hot air, I dont think that a chabad shull has to live with that nonsense.
Tzigele, the two anons seem to be dead on.
ReplyDeleteMottel:
ReplyDeleteabout the Tehillim OYY? that was a different story at a different time. The rebbe printed a tehillim way back in 5702 or so and published it with the Siddur. This is different.
As far as the Artscrol hot air is concerned: I hear the point ever so slightly. Maybe it'll grow on me.
''JJ said...
ReplyDeleteOh, you mean like the Litvisher who have their own Nusach Ashkenaz, their own Mishnah Berurah, their own Minhogim, and their own Chumash Torah Temimah?
right?
It all depends on who sets the standard. ''
JJ,I'm a bit dense help me with this one please:What nusach did Rashi,Rabbeinu Tam and the Ram'o daven?That's right! Nusach Ashkenaz, it's not a 'Litvishe' invention (Actually Nusach Sefard is an invention, it's not minhag hasefardim or real Ashkenaz, it is a nusach that was non existent till two hundred years ago)
The point is not who "invented" what. It's what everybody does now that's important. So if you divert from that tradition then you're no in the mainstream. Why then is SA HoRav considered their "own" Shulchan Aruch? Why is Nusach Ari considered their "own" Nusach? didn't the Mishna Brura come 100 years later?
ReplyDeleteThe Gra did make tikunim to the Nusach . . .
ReplyDeleteShame you delete comments
ReplyDeleteJJ? "Oh, you mean like the Litvisher who have their own Nusach Ashkenaz"
ReplyDeleteI have no clue who you are, but R' Moshe Feinstein ZATZAL was bigger then you. (Just let me know if you have 250,000 people at your Levaya in Israel if your Levaya is on Purim......)
In any event he has a Teshuva which says that one is permitted to switch his nusach from Sefard to Askenaz but NOT from Ashkenaz to Sefard.
The reason? Ashkenaz is the real deal he says.
and the Heilige Divrei Chaim ZATZAVKLLHH says that one may NOT change from Sfard to Ashkenaz. Even if his Zeide davened Ashkenaz.
ReplyDeleteThe Reason? because Sfard is a Nusach that coincides with the Sha'ar HaKeylel so that it is suitable for ALL Yidden, whereas Ashkenaz is not. He says.
there is the famous teshuva from the Chasam Sofer that one may change from ashkenaz to sefard/ari but not vice versa, iirc its #14, referenced in many letters from the Rebbe, see sharei halocho uminhog
ReplyDeleteUzoy, get your facts straight the chasam sofer says the opposite,
ReplyDeleteIt's Minchas Elazar who writes that one may switch from Ashkenaz to Sfard.
ReplyDeleteIn Migdal Ohr Vol 6b (pages 217-268) HaGaon Rav Ezra Shochet (who, for those of you out there who hold of such things as a chashivus, once learned b'chavrusa with R' Aharon Kotler . . .) HaGaon Rav Ezra Shochet explains at great length the halachic reason fro the Minchas Elazar's psak that one can change from Ashkenaz to Sefard, and the Rebb'es hosafah that likewise one can change from Sefard to Ari but not vice versa. (and refutes the sevarah of the Igros Moshe (Orach Chaim II:24) and Oz nidbru Vol 6 (Chap. 46) who argue on the Minchas Elazar and say that one CAN change from Sefard to Ashkenaz.)
Mottel
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt that The 'Rosh' R'Ezra Schochat learned bechavrusa with R'Ahron Kotler.R'Ahron died 44 years ago, I think the Rosh is in his late fifties(?)Does not sound doable.You may mean brother R'Immanuel,older and doable, but I think he learned in Lubavitch so it does not make sense either.
Uzoy: Anonymous, chapped first that in fact the Chasam Sofer says the exact opposite, and you mistook the Rebbes meaning.The Rebbes is not bringing proof that one may change nusach from the Chasam Sofer, rather saying that one should look up the Chasam Sofers teshuva.
Whether one may swith nusach or not, anybody who has honesty realizes that the nusach that Rashi, baaley hotosfos davened does not need a haskomo.
Peace
The Rosh (The above post was, besides my parenthesis taken from Chabadtalk) is 63 (and 1/2) years old . . . While he did learn in Lakewood, I've never heard him confirm or deny the story. It is claimed that the Iluy would learn with Rosh Yeshivah. R' Immanuel did learn entirely in Lubavitch.
ReplyDeleteOf note with the Rosh and Misnagdim
-When R' Mendel came to collect ma'amed with R' Shmuel Dovid Raitchek in Los Angeles, he would Farbreng in the Yeshivah. At one point one (either R' Mendel to the Rosh or the Rosh to R' Mendel . . . I don't remember the protim) pointed to the other, that all of R' Mendel's misiras Nefesh in Siberia is nothing compared to the Rosh's learning in Misngadishe Yeshivos .
-When the Rosh learned in Ner Yisroel, the bochurim took offense to some of his Lubavitcher way's etc, held down the Rosh (no small task if you've ever seen him) and shaved off his beard.
Mottel:
ReplyDeleteאוודאי they shaved it off; it's not Kovod HaTeyreh for a Bochur to have beard!
Tzig, the issue is not so much Artscroll dropping the Rebbe as Artscroll selling their Chumash which dropped the Rebbe to hundreds of Chabad houses for their weekly use. These Chabad houses now have elsewhere to purchase. The power of the market.
ReplyDeleteKAVOD HATORAH NOT TO HAVE A BEARD?
ReplyDeleteisnt the ability to shave a heter???
how is it not kovod hatorah to have a beard. THE HEILIGE TORAH POSHUT SAYS DON'T DESTROY THE HAIRS OF YOUR BEARD!!!!! Its not kovod hatorah to shave!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what teh comparson with the "Keter Aram Tzova" is. In that case the question was about having a different edition of the letters of the Torah itself, not about which commentaries it uses. There were many different chumashim both before and after artscroll that having nothing to do with chabad.
ReplyDelete