Recently we've been witness to a new phenomenon, namely Baalei Tshuvah retaining a part of their former lifestyle. Whether it's rappers or beatboxers, boxers or otherwise, they continue to supposedly use their talents and "flip it to Kedushah." That never happened in the old days. In the old days in Hadar Hatorah Reb Yisroel Jacobson made you cut your long hair off and conform to the rules of Yeshivah. Yes, you could keep your musical instrument, but you played Chabad Nigunim and joined a Chasidishe band. If you were an artist you focused all of your energies into painting the Chasidic lifestyle. Today you do what you want, all the while staying frum, of course, and giving the youth the insipid idea that the two go together, and that pop culture will have no influence on their practice of Yiddishkeit.
The examples are many, and I believe I can trace all of these back to uneducated and unlearned leadership. We can start with Matisyahu, go on to Jew da Maccabi, and on and on. If it were just plain Mekurovim who go on to become more observant, but remain within their old framework החרשנו, but this is different. Here we speak of Baalei Tshuvah who parade around as Lubavitchers, mit di shmeyne begodim, yet they remain very much connected to the outside world. They pepper their repertoire with Jewish, Chabad, and Rebbe references but the affect is the same. It opens up young impressionable kids to a world they need not know about, and that indefensible. Why must little Zalmy know about reggae and beatboxing, because Matisyahu does it,and he sports a berdel?
Why do I blame BT Shluchim? It's very simple, they lack proper Shimush, sometimes being Frum for just a couple of years, and they decide on major policy in Lubavitch. Chinuch of our children is no less important than who becomes Rov in CH or which ad goes into the New York Times. Allowing for such otherwise good people to continue with their now unacceptable lifestyle is a major policy shift. If his Mashpiah in the Village decided that it's OK for him to continue, and this carries into Lubavitch and Frum society as a whole, then we've got ourselves a big problem. Rappers and similar performers must be taught that what they did till now has to be left along with the other sacrifices they made, and if they could leave non-Kosher food behind then they could do without their rap music. Oh, and please don't tell me that the Rebbe said to utilize everything for Kedushah, I don't want to hear it.
blaming BT shiluchim is like saying that "from the forest itself comes the handle for the axe"
ReplyDeleteNot if the axe has a mind of its own.......
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing wrong with Chabad that you can't fix with hammer.
ReplyDeleteAmshinover, you got a chip on your shouders because you are a BT?
ReplyDeleteIsn't it ironic how Lubavitch lauds the achievements of baalei teshuvah who became Lubavitchers when if they grew up in the community their activities and achievements would have been shunned as something that was not permitted?
ReplyDeleteSecondly, why do Lubavitchers only seem to listen to music created by other Lubavitchers?
Rubashkin meat and Avraham Fried....don't you guys want to branch out a bit? There is an entire world out there you know.
Look at this though:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=3938
Seems as if Matisyahu does do some good, even though he is clearly "not for us".
Jew da Maccabee is a complete joke - IIRC he's an electronics or shmatte dealer from Miami who(c)raps for fun.
> Avraham Fried
ReplyDeleteNow THIS one really gets to me. He sing almost alto-high (a safeik Kol Ishah IMHO) and does pelvic thrusts a-la Michael Jackson in the 80s. If you're going to criticise BTs for trying to do Hishaphchah on their past what about this one who, arguably, has no such thing to deal with?
Hm, most Lubavitchers listen to all Jewish Music. What is official policy is a different story.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the official policy?
ReplyDeleteBT shluchim are to blame? Tzig,a very shallow analysis. I came back only to urge you to pull the plug and invest your talents elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteRegarding 'goyish' talent judaized. There are only a handful of performers like this and their main focus is frie yidden. If any of these performers wants to do a concert in Crown heights or seek to have a lubavitch yeshiva sponsor a visit this is a problem, but that probably doesn't happen and if it does its an exception rather than the norm.
The problem is rather a combination of the insidiusness of the influences in the air today coupled with not enough people setting effective standards which includes Rabbis, teachers, and parents, and a globally scattered non centralized lubavitch (non)society. This is why zalmy even knows about a Matisyahoo and thinks that this is jewish. The cards are stacked against us. Don't blame the shliach, specially the BT one. Any shliach whatever his designation(ffb,bt, or?) has no authority even over his biggest chosid (even his own children), ie, his reality does not have the same dynamics as a BT "in the old days in Hadar Hatorah, where Reb Yisroel Jacobson made you cut your long hair off and conform to the rules of Yeshivah."
Aside from not having any authority,shluchim are operating in a place that is not culurally yiddish, a yeshiva might be, the world at large isn't. This is an enormous challenge. Also, Amercian society cannot fathom being told what to do..this the culture..so the shliach is further hampered as is even the rov in crown heights because the american culture is alive all over and has made in roads (even in non english speaking williamsburg and yeshivas).
Little zalmy is challenged today for so many reasons that have almost zero to do with the BT shliach. And if little zalmy lives in crown heights, the problem if from the top down and back again like a vicious circle of hefkeres. we don't have a live Rebbe; tragic. we don't have rabbinic leadership that is central and has any authority, also tragic. We don't have many communal rabbis that jump into peoples lives to influence them. The yeshivas today don't have authority like in yesteryear over their students and so I imagine that many educators too are frustrated. Parents have their hands full and many are 'corrupted' with the culture of america and non leadership, no rabbinical authority, etc.
Poor zalmy. We should have some rachmunis for the shliach, the rov, the educator, the parent as well. Golus is real, so Tzigele, why add more darkness. Why not cross over to the other side and create a little light.
GW Bush
ReplyDeletethe same thing goes for all segments of the Frum community. They laud the accomplishments of Frum Doctors, Lawyers, and Musicians, yet they'd never allow their children to go to Med school or Juliard. That's one thing the secularists always point to, especially in Israel.
wow, N (sorry about the chips)
ReplyDeleteI should rephrase the topic of the post, it shouldn't be BT Shluchim. I misstated the point.
> What is the official policy?
ReplyDeleteYour guess is as good as any of ours, Mr. Prez.
Ok, now that you have side-stepped my first question, how about my second one:
ReplyDeleteWhy do Lubavitchers only seem to listen to music created by other Lubavitchers? (with the exception of Uncle Moishy who is a Bobover chassid)
Prez
ReplyDeleteI don't think that's the case. They may gravitae towards Lubavitcher music, much like heimishes lean towards heimishe music, but I don't think they listen to it exclusively. Unless we speak of the ultra-Chassidim who want their kids to hear only Lubavitcher Nigunim. That's probably based on them not wanting their kids to be influenced by non-chassidic music.
n! good to hear from you!
ReplyDeleteRe: your post, AMEN!!!!
You have made some good points. Although I think that you can't blame only the BT's. Many FFB Shluchim have crossed the line and capitilize on pop culture. I know may smart, learned G-d fearing BT's with smicha etc... But you are correct, the one thing that they lack is Shimush. I know that as a BT, although I spent time learning in yeshiva etc..., even when it comes to issues of chinuch I face some challenges since I did not experience growing up frum and learning in cheder. It would seem that a BT in a position as a Shaliach or other leadership position would similarly face many challenges as a result of lacking a "frum" up- bringing and life experience.
ReplyDeleteBTW, my "heimish" son of 12 now 14, knew of Mattisyahu while at "Heimish" yeshivah.....
ReplyDeleteKnowing of him is one thing, "idolizing" him and being proud that he's one of ours is quite another.
ReplyDeleteNow THIS one really gets to me. He sing almost alto-high (a safeik Kol Ishah IMHO) and does pelvic thrusts a-la Michael Jackson in the 80s. If you're going to criticise BTs for trying to do Hishaphchah on their past what about this one who, arguably, has no such thing to deal with?
ReplyDelete---------------------------------
??? Avraham Fried's performances are far tamer than the way your average bochur or yungermann in just about any kreiz dances at a chassuna. It's just that he is very agile and is better at it than some of us who weigh more in kilos than Avremel weighs in pounds :). As for his voice being sofek kol isha - ROTFL!
And since when do any but the strictest Lubavitchers only listen to music from Lubavitch performers? Albums from MBD, Miami, Lipa, Shwekey, Gabay and every other performer sell as well in CH as they do in any other community, and Lubavitchers are well represented in every concert audience no matter who is performing.
and Lubavitchers are well represented in every concert audience no matter who is performing.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that's something to be proud of.......
What happens if the Moshiach is not a Lubavitcher, Hirshel?
ReplyDelete(How about answering that honestly...)
tzig, my son was actually singing one of them stupid rants & i had plenty of work to do to stop him.
ReplyDeleteif Moshiach is not a Lubavithcer we'll teach him Chassidus and make him one.
ReplyDeleteIf he's not a Litvak; that may be a bigger problem for some people.....
How about if he already knows Chassidus? Does he have to know Chabad Chassidus in order to be Moshiach?
ReplyDeleteChabad Chassidus is Torosoh shel Moshiach, other groups chose not to reveal it for other reasons. Moshiach will need to know it in order to lead the Jewish people.
ReplyDeleteBut he need not be a card-carrying member.
IS: and Lubavitchers are well represented in every concert audience no matter who is performing.
ReplyDeleteHT: I don't think that's something to be proud of.......
Umm - I am referring to kosher performers in separate seating concerts which are the only ones I attend - I don't even think about other types of performances. Nothing wrong with kosher entertainment especially during Chol Hamoed Pesach.
What if he just knows Tanya and not anything else from the other rebbeim?
ReplyDeleteAlso, what makes you so sure that Moshiach will need to know Chabad Chassidus...because a Chabad Rebbe said so? (Does anyone else see a problem with this logic?)
All Chassidic groups agree that the Rebbe needs to know Toras HaChassidus, the argument is only whether it needs to be taught to the masses. Moshiach will be no different.
ReplyDeleteChassidus in part of the four sections of Torah and Moshiach will need to be well-versed in it.
Tanya is the Alef-Beis of Chassidus, all later Seforim are based on those concepts, much like Mishnah and Gemoroh are there to comment on the Torah (Chumash).
H,
ReplyDeleteI realize that I'm late to the part here, and I haven't read all the posts in the thread, but the problem isn't BT Shluchim and the like. The problem is far more simple:
"If you fight with a dirty opponent you get dirty"
The Baal Shem Tov said it, and it's a simple fact of life. If you have a movement to get down and dirty and deal with non-Jewish culture, you better belive that a chelek of that non-Jewish culture will seep in...
Tanya is not the alef-beis of Chassidus. Tanya is the alef-beis of Chabad Chassidus.
ReplyDeleteAll later seforim are based on the concepts of the Baal Shem Tov and Maggid of Mezeritch (neither of whom was a Lubavitcher).
Whatd'ya mean the Baal Shem Tov & the Maggid were not Lubavitchers?
ReplyDeleteWhy, I've never heard such a thing - what's your basis for the claim?
;-)
> Chabad Chassidus is Torosoh shel
ReplyDelete> Moshiach, other groups chose not to
> reveal it for other reasons. Moshiach
> will need to know it in order to lead
> the Jewish people.
That's what Chabad says. But Chabad has no copyright for such things. All Toyras haChasidus is part of this hisgalus of Toyras haMoshiach.
> to get down and dirty and deal with
ReplyDelete> non-Jewish culture, you better belive
> that a chelek of that non-Jewish
> culture will seep in...
But Baal Shem Tov says also, that one shouldn't forget, that one will have to clean himself from this dirt. (And obviously better sooner, than later).
Look a moshol from Reb Pinchos Koritzer (in the name of Baal Shem Tov) about the dusty broom.
H,
ReplyDeleteIt’s Erev-Shabbos, so I don’t have a lot of time here, but I’ll try to get this in:
It’s not BT shluchim – the FFB shluchim do the same. It’s also not simply the lack of leadership, not the poor quality of the yeshivos, not the head-in-the-sand attitude. Those things are all symptoms.
If you have a closed community, you can maintain purity. The more that community opens up, the more the standards will erode. It starts off with small things, trivialities, but as the movement grew and spread the bubble faded away entirely, and the erosion of the hergesh chassidi evaporated. Children were raised in this environment. Shluchim lived many years on the battlefront, where they have to deal with the issues of modernity on a daily basis. There is no way that there will be no impact on the movement’s standards.
Sure, if things were handled differently, it might not be quite this bad – but that’s not the point. The point is that if the mission was absolutely imperative, than it had to be done – regardless of the risks… and yes, many of those risks became realities.
I’m not addressing how it should be, I’m just saying how it is.
Anybody want to use the Amish model instead?
We don't turn on light switches on Saturday either.
ReplyDelete"I should rephrase the topic of the post, it shouldn't be BT Shluchim. I misstated the point."
ReplyDeleteSo change it Tzig.
It's the same shtick all over the place. Gezhe blame the tzugekuminer and the BTs (as it's well known), the tzugekuminer blame just the BTs (like you did), the BTs blame the Gezhe and the tzugekuminer (ala Mentalblog) . . .
Matisyahu's stuff is fine for mivtzoyem type purposes as long as
1. He makes note of the fact that he is a Lubavitcher, not Lubavitch. (I see no difference between what Matis does and a hunky selling watches in Manhattan -the type of people who come off the street . . .)
2. We realize that its not for us! I happen to like Matis's music to some degree . . . but I know that his shtick is not for Lubavitchers (Though as of note, his songs are all original, as opposed to MBD et al that have ripped of Goyishe songs u'k'yedua)
There's are a few shluchim in Montreal who make a concert Lag B'omer time known as Lagstock; if a bochur shows up, he's given the boot. It's not for him and they make it known.
(Jew Da Maccabee is a joke btw)
Mottel: So what you are saying is that Matisyahu is analogous to OU-D. Some might think it is kosher, but it is no Cholov Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteIsn't there a tinge of spiritual arrogance here by allowing others to listen to what one does not consider kosher himself?
there
ReplyDeleteI've changed it.
גוט שבת
Tzig-
ReplyDeleteyour main thing is convincing the farchnyuter velt that us lubies are as farchnyukt as them. am I right?
peretz chein and matisyahu are making it very hard for you, especially when chabad mainstream embraces them instead of denouncing them.
you need a chill pill!
Hirshel, you're making an aveyde zore out of your so-called "Jewish" culture. What makes klezmer Jewish but rap goyish? Or kasha varnishkes Jewish and pad thai goyish? Nothing at all. Every single bit of "Jewish culture" is borrowed from the goyim among whom particular Jewish communities happened to live; there is not a single musical style, art form, food, article of clothing, or recreation that is uniquely Jewish. Older chazonus derives from church music, and newer chazonus from folk music and the opera, as does "chassic music" (don't try to tell me that it comes from the Beis Hamikdosh...). Ashkenazi "Jewish food" is identical with Polish/Russian/Hungarian food, just as Sefardi food is the same as that of their neighbours. Our clothing is 100% European, es vent zach nor which part of Europe, and in which century. But today we're not living in Europe, so why not borrow from our surrounding culture? Why not rap, beatbox, run marathons, etc?
ReplyDeleteAnd BTW, Reb Hendel didn't only paint chassidishe scenes. He also painted "art", which he learned from his time on the outside, and nobody made him give it up when he came back. Nobody tells a doctor or a lawyer or a scientist to give it up when they become frum, so why should a rapper or an ich-veis-nisht-vos do so? Because es gefelt dich nisht?
I think it's analogues to Chabad house shtick -the songs sung during davvening and at the shabbos table etc. I sing Dovid Melech Yisroel by every Public seder or shabbos meal that I've made, but I would never sing it at home -for a chiddishe shtub, s'past nit, for mivtzoiem since there's nothing inherently wrong with it, it's fine.
ReplyDeleteTzig, you're wrong on this one. His job is to use his talents, ours is to keep our kids away from it... and he would actually cooperate with that, and does so of his own volition to the extent of his ability.
ReplyDeleteRappers and similar performers must be taught that what they did till now has to be left along with the other sacrifices they made, and if they could leave non-Kosher food behind then they could do without their rap music.
ReplyDeleteSounds rather cult like to me. Chatz veshalom to thinking that anything from their prior life has merit.
yud tes kislev un m'farbrengt nit?
ReplyDeleteAtt. Breslover;
ReplyDeleteTHe fact that Torasoi Shel Moshiach is Toras Hachasidus is clear to you because (I assume) you know that the Rambam says that Esak Kol Haolam will be Loda'as Es Hashem, and that's what Chassidus is all about.
Out of all Chassidus'n, the only one that explains Da Es Elokei Avicha, in a most comprehensive way is Chassidus Chabad. bringing out the Toras Hachasiddus Haklolis into Chaba"d, understanding.
Millhouse - you speak like YU activist.
ReplyDelete> Out of all Chassidus'n, the only one that explains Da Es Elokei Avicha,
ReplyDelete> in a most comprehensive way is Chassidus Chabad. bringing out the Toras Hachasiddus Haklolis
> into Chaba"d, understanding.
That's what you say. No one said that "bringing out the Toras Hachasiddus Haklolis into Chaba"d" is the goal in itself, which defines Toyras haMoshiach. Or more correctly Chabad says it, but as I noted above - Chabad has no copyright for such definitions.
What's more important is not even the argument who defines it. More important, that if one claims it all for himself, and is in denial that there are other drochim inside Toyras haMoshiach - such one is voluntary disillusioned, and unless he will decide to think a bit, instead of repeating slogans - there is no point in discussions.
ReplyDeleteTwo small points:Who said that there is a 'Toras Moshiach'? b)Why do Lubavitchers insist that only their way/torah is the 'true' one-I know for a fact that Lubavitchers, by and large at least, do not study other chasidic schools of thought, so on what basis have they decided that 'only' Chabad chasidus explains this or that or whatever they are trying to prove-Understand this please Lubavitchers, you are allowed to think what you want, however there is a very basic threshold to convince others, AND IT'S NOT CIRCULAR LOGIC! (i.e Chabad is best because we/the rebbe think so, therefore YOU MUST AGREE)
ReplyDeleteTzig, you're wrong on this one. His job is to use his talents, ours is to keep our kids away from it... and he would actually cooperate with that, and does so of his own volition to the extent of his ability.
ReplyDelete------------------------------
This is correct. Any good that he does is for those outside or on the fringes of Chabad and yiddishkeit in general (potential mekuravim, flipped out or confused teens) - and he does not claim that his music is intended for frum audiences. Of course, he does not stop the sale of his albums in haimishe stores either, but a certain happy distributor is mostly to blame for that - he can't and shouldn't stop anyone from buying records from Sony or whoever to sell wherever they want.
Chabad houses should invite him if they feel he can reach their audience, and his performance at the college pegisha was not a bad thing either, but Anash should not be looking up to him in any way or see him as a role model for chassidish children.
''habad houses should invite him if they feel he can reach their audience, and his performance at the college pegisha was not a bad thing either, but Anash should not be looking up to him in any way or see him as a role model for chassidish children. ''
ReplyDeleteMr/rabbi Schier:Pray-tell, what are your credentials for your above, somewhst bombastic comment imo?
Who are the role models you want?Many of the so called 'rabbis' in Lubavitch are worse role models:Mat Miller is an am hooertz, he knows it and is not selling himself as anything besides a musician, which he is, some of the 'rabbis' are ignorant, partisan petz.For the record, I personally cannot bear to hear Mat's music, neither can my kids, other people love it.
Sadly, there are some bigger amoratzim of the New Age Chabad variety who indeed hold Matisyahu up as someone who should be emulated and looked up to regardless of what we both agree is true. The rest of your drivel is not worth a response.
ReplyDelete"No one said that "bringing out the Toras Hachasiddus Haklolis into Chaba"d" is the goal in itself"
ReplyDeleteBreslover, you're missing Mendy's point.
"you know that the Rambam says that Esak Kol Haolam will be Loda'as Es Hashem, and that's what Chassidus is all about."
You know good & well that according to breslov chassidus, דעת is not the goal, especially since breslov chassidus is NOT as explainable to the fleishige kup as is chabad.
Slonim, same applies to you.
again, this is according to rambam סוף הלכות מלכים
"again, this is according to rambam סוף הלכות מלכים "
ReplyDeleteThis is the famous Rambam that tells us what Moshiach will have achieved to be considered Moshiach (none of which was achieved by your late Rebbe).
tzibaleh - not exactly. Daas is a important in every chasidus at least in theory (and in Breslov in practice as well). Just Chabad understands daas just as intellectual perception (at least on a superficial level), while others define daas as a mystical perception. Obviously it is said "vayimole hooretz deyo" about the time of the Moshiach. And this means an open mystical perception of the whole briya.
ReplyDeletesnag, s'vayst ays az, latest discussion is above your head.
ReplyDeletewhat is being discussed is, what will be עסק העולם whenever moshiach shows up.
we don't care who it is, at least Breslover & I don't.
breslover, i beg to differ. rambam is a ספר הלכות & when he mentiones דעת, he means דעת.
openmindedchabad: As a result of being open, your Chabad have fallen out of your mind. You list no one worse than him. If you need to give yourself an excuse, at least give an example of that which excuses your behavior and opinion.
ReplyDeleteDid you see this post?
ReplyDeleteIt's disgraceful.
http://mordechai7215.blogspot.com/
Now I see who left besmirching (and patently false) remarks on my Blog.
ReplyDeleteMy friend, you ought to feel ashamed for accusing me based on your failed understanding of my words.
When Rebeinu Yonah brought came out against the Rambam he went through sefer hayad and thought it through before coming out against -and even still he latter came to regret what he did and did teshuvah over his actions.
Think a little.
Tzig, please get rid of his comment.
I'm lost here, I was away all day and have not been following. What are the besmirching remarks you speak of?
ReplyDeletehave we broken the record for number of comments at tzig?
ReplyDeletethe record is way over a hundred, set last year.
ReplyDeletewell lets keep trying!
ReplyDeleteHe writes:
ReplyDelete"Did you see this post?
It's disgraceful.
http://mordechai7215.blogspot.com/"
As well as another (longer) remark one my blog. I don't need someone making despairingly comments about me based solely on his inability to properly understand the English language)
Mottel
ReplyDeletewho are you complaining about, me?
Baalbatish
ReplyDeleteIt's already old by now, almost pointless to keep going on about it but . . .
You are nothing more than a racist hypoctite pig.
ReplyDeletesure thing, anonymous.
ReplyDeleteDo you really think Chabad Chassidim in the 60s and 70s only had the option to pick up their violins and play nigunim? How do you explain Rayeh Maehmna? The Piamentas? Moshe Yess (pre-Gimmel Tammuz)?
ReplyDeleteTheir previous lifestyles brought many foreign influences into their music, but ultimately their music inspired a generation of people, myself included.
While our generation is not on the spiritual level of those eltere Chassidim who could take the songs of a drunk peasant and elevate them into a joyous nigun, I think you can give people enough credit that when they create their own music, they are sincere in their desire to share their Yiddishkeit in the way they know best; through the medium of music that they know and appreciate.