Wednesday, December 13, 2006

Do you want a tie with that?



A friend of mine who tutors yeshiva bochurim was telling me about a bochur whose rosh yeshiva told him, "A bochur who wears a beard, is a like a guy who wears a tie on his pajamas.”

Obviously this wasn’t a Chassidishe yeshiva, but I wonder, what is behind that statement? Is a bochur a pajama, and not worthy enough to grow his beard? Is it a statement to keep the coals burning in the never ending battle to protect these innocent youths from Chassidim or Chassidishe values? Is it because the beard is only for people of stature, and not the common man or simple bochur – thus a bearded bochur insults those of status and stature? Or was it a simple innocuous comment with no harm intended? In my opinion, this battle to assure that yiddishe kinder have no feeling for kedusha inyanim is illogical; it seem to me that there are 2 logical outcomes that are probably not desirable to the roshei yeshiva that share this view:

1. The bochur is convinced and lives a life of kedusha-less rules – a guf without a neshoma – eventually becoming a baal habayis without even a small amount of Yiras Shomayim.

2. The bochur finds Chassidim that show him another, perhaps more spiritual, path – and the bochur leaves the ranks of his rosh yeshiva.

I just don’t get it; I am, however, sure that there are measures taken to avoid the second scenario. As to the first, that’s ok I guess. And if you don’t think there is any agenda here, this might change your mind: A girl I know from a main-stream Bais Yaakov background, who was positively disposed to Chassidim, went to Nevei Yerushalaim. Now, don’t get me wrong, I think that in many ways it’s a great place, and they do great work. But I can tell you, this girl came back after a couple there years with such hatred for Chassidim and Chassidus that it was unbelievable. Here’s the attitude that they worked day & night to instill in her:

1. Chassidim are Am-Haaratzim that don’t know a word of Torah; they are blatant violators of halacha. They have perverted the derech hayoshor of Yiddishkeit.

2. Chassidic seforim and Toras hachassidus in general is unnecessary, since it is only basic penimius haTorah, which is available in many other better seforim (and Chassidim stole it from the stam yeshiva world anyway). And they proceeded to teach sections of Nefesh Hachaim, Ramchal & Rav Dessler as the better alternatives for those with interest in Chassidus.

3. Lubavitch is the worst of all possible derachim – to be avoided at all costs. No unmarried girl should C”V light a Shabbos candle like Lubavitch promotes, and if they have to light, because they don’t have anyone to light for them, then they must light 2 candles, not 1 candle like the am-haratzim in Lubavitch do.

4. For Halacha, the primary sefer of significance should be Chai Adam.

I could go on, but you get the idea. I was a bit surprised that this indoctrination is so blatant, but I guess the battle lines are pretty clearly drawn. I guess Yiddishkeit has become little more than ideology to the leaders of the Litvishe Modsos Hatorah out there.

41 comments:

  1. Yo HT,
    BTW, even though you didn't write the posts, you can still comment on them.

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  2. sorry to hear that. רפואה שלמה

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  3. are there any other steps to Kedusha that can not be skipped prior to growing a beard ? can you write about those? did you ever hear of the expresion "a chazer mit a gartel" ? can you discuss what a bucher should not be doing besides growing a beard in order to gain kedusha ? how about Payus does this help in Inunei Kedusha?

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  4. Anon,
    I don't understand - what do you mean?
    I don't think a kid should be told to cut his peyos either - actually a Jewish kid shoudl be encouraged to do anything Jewish...

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  5. Anonymous

    Growing a beard is a Shev V'al Tayseh, and always was part and parcel of Yiddishkeit. Forcing B'nei Teyreh to remove it seems strange, to say the least, no?

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  6. "For Halacha, the primary sefer of significance should be Chai Adam."

    What is Chai Adam ?

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  7. These inyonim have been discussed in the past. Some of your points are valid, but others are not.

    The beard zach has to do with the strong Slabodka influence among some Litvishe. But other Litvishe didn't agree with it. Limoshol the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, the Chofetz Chaim, Novardikers and others took issue with this strong anti-beard stance. Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita (yblct"a) is a prominent representative of this other Litvishe tradition, as are others, bifrat in Eretz Yisroel.

    To make it like those who are against beards for bochurim are against all kedusho inyonim is a mistake. They have their position re beards, which we may disagree with. But to say that they are therefore against all kedusho inyonim ? That makes it sound like they eat dovor acher while learning gemara or something like that. Chas vesholem !

    "I was a bit surprised that this indoctrination is so blatant, but I guess the battle lines are pretty clearly drawn."

    And in Lubavitch and other Chassidishe or other moisdois there is no strong and open indoctrination ? Who are you fooling or trying to fool ?

    "I guess Yiddishkeit has become little more than ideology to the leaders of the Litvishe Modsos Hatorah out there."

    What ?

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  8. Thanks for the interesting post Snag2!

    When I said kedusha inyanim, I never meant aveiros C"V. I mean that there a tendency to scorn things, like beards, peyos, mikva, or things that the chassidishe are sensitive to.
    I realize that a specific group will encourage people to be like minded - if someone sends their kids to Lubavitch, they want him to be a Lubavitcher - but then there are mosdos that are supposedly representing fair and balanced Yiddishkeit. Supposedly, they are representing Limud HaTorah for all, but in truth, they are driven to awaken the sinas chinam that was a bissel farshlofen in years past.
    They have talented people, and they are driven with purpose:, to do their utmost to eradicate anything chassidish.

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  9. 2 stories from when I lived in New York:

    A mekurov to Lubavitch decided (for many reasons) to learn in Aish HaTorah. When he became frum he grew a beard. In Aish HaTorah he was actively encouraged to shave as it was "inappropriate" (my terminology) for a bochur to have a beard - after marriage was OK but not as a bocur.

    A side note. When he came back to our shul to visit for a Shabbos he would walk out during the Tanya shiur.

    This young man, who attained quite impressive secular qualifications, used to be quite easy going. That is not to say that he was not very serious about learning and yiddishkeit. When he went to Aish his demeanor changed and he became very serious and quite condescending to the Lubavitchers in our shul. It seems to me that he considered himself a "ben Torah" now and far superior to us.

    The other story is about two Israeli girls who stayed us in Crown Heights for Tishrei back in the late '80s. These girls learnt in the Israeli baal teshuvah program at Nevei. When they arrived back at Nevei after the Tishrei break the word got out that they were by the Rebbe. Both girls were promptly evicted from that institution.

    And the misnagdim here in Melbourne still claim that they never say anything negative about Chabad...

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  10. My parents, shluchim, had tens of young teenagers eat every week by our shabbos table. Many young boys and girls eventually ended up in Eretz yisroel to learn in Yeshiavah. For the most part, girls, to nevei and boys, to aish.

    I can not tell you the hurt that my parents felt, when they return and will not even look at the people who made them frum. the person who provided kosher shabbos meals for them, all of a sudden turned into a villain.

    I know these people first hand. They won't look at me, "the Rabbi's son" that they used to play with as a child.

    There are merely 3 or 4 that came out still appreciative of what my parents had done.

    One bochur was tolled to stop growing his beard, stop keeping cholov yisroel and stop wearing a hat. (this was not in Aish, I doubt they would do all of those things.)
    While he did comply and took on litvishe minhagim (he now wears a hat) he still is unbelievably friendly and appreciative of my parents.

    side point; my mind was blown when I heard from a friend of mine, that when he learned in Eretz Yisrol he would occasionally stop by Aish and put on Teffillin with some of the students. They were boys (balei Teshuvah) who sat and learned ALL DAY!!! but did not put on Tefillin, but were very happy to do so when offered by a lubavitcher. To me this was quite shocking!

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  11. Wow, Mekushor, you really hate 'other' frum people.Can't blame you, you were fed this primitive hate in the 'koidesh hakodoshim' or the 'gan eden hatachton' or 'gan eden haelyon' or any other bombasitic term 'they' use there.Hey, how about the (in)famous saying from someone who will remain unnamed as follows 'unzereh zibooris iz besser foon zeyereh idis' what is that if not 'farshtoonkeneh gayveh'.You are taught and continue to teach that your group is the best,the crown of yiddishkait.You will not eat shechitah unless it's done by a fellow Lubavitcher, and you have taynes about others?You basically teach that anybody who is not 'YET'Lubavitch is a second class jew.Feh. There was a time that I was somewhat interested in Lubavitch but the main turn off was their unbelievable hubris, thinking that their way and only their way is the right one.

    Aussieecho,
    You did not even have the common decency to mention on your blog the tragedy that took place around Perth with the American yeshiva boy who was swept away.It was of no interest to you and your ilk because they were not 'your kind' i.e Lubavitch.Feh.

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  12. Zak- There was a Kollel Yungerman in Sydney that was unfortunately struck by a car nearly fatally last week. In every Lubavitch Shul they Davened and continue to Daven for him.

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  13. Zak is on a roll! he's venting.

    why should YOU be the one who decides what other bloggers need to write?

    At least Lubavitcher so-called supremacy ideas are all in theory, with Snags it's comes down to action too. Just ask any old-timer who was in Shanghai during WWII, he'll tell you. Also, only B'nei Teyreh were worthy of rescue. Yeah, Yeah, the books, right, sure.

    A BaaleBuss! feh. it's all B'nei Teyreh, who's Teyreh is very much in doubt anyway.

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  14. Mr Circus

    You made the following assumptions about beards:
    a) It has special kedusha
    b) It makes someone a chasid
    c) It instills Yiras Shamaim

    I will make the following assumptions based on your writings:

    a) You do not know what kedusha is about
    b) You do not know what chasidus is about
    c) You do not know what Yiras Shamaim about

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  15. Zak,
    Unfortunately, I didn't have the good fortune to partake of the kasha of Tomchei Temimim - many of my Yeshiva days were spent studying from very nice non-Lubavitchers (sorry to dissapoint you; it's ok though, you can still hate him if it helps you eith your Yiddishkeit.)

    Itche Meir 52nd-er,
    I see from your comments that in order to explain this to you will take way more energy than I care to invest. I wish you the best in all your endeavors.

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  16. Mekushor,

    Its nothing personal. I've heard this argument from empty people before. You will never hear anyone of any value make those arguments. Take this to R Yoel Kahn SHlita and he wouldn't look at you.

    Its arguments like yours that make chasidim seem empty. If there is any focus on beards then the misnagdim are right. Fortunately, the ones who agree with you are only a miut. The majority try to focus on ernster Yiras Shamayim.

    BTW, most Litvishe and the strong majoriy of their Roshei Yeshiva have no problem with chasidus. I don't know where youve learnt I for one rarely heard it and most certainly never heard it from a Rosh Hayeshiva.

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  17. Itche,

    Dishonest & disingenuous my friend, very disingenuous.

    There is an organized agenda - why deny it? I agree that they don’t ALL openly attack “chassidus” outright. Obviously, some people do not oppose Chassidus, and some do so more subtley, some less so, but I have been around too many Yeshivalite and Litvishe yeshiva hanhola members to deny the existence of this “problem with chassidus.”

    And, for the record, someone would have been trying to be stupid to have assumed from my post that a beard, on its own, makes someone a chossid, or instills yiras shomayim. Let’s assume for arguments sake that you’re not an idiot; maybe you were just not paying close attention...

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  18. You make 2 arguments

    1) "There is an organized agenda… some people do not oppose Chassidus…"
    2) "that a beard, on its own, makes someone a chossid, or instills yiras shomayim."


    A) Look. I am not saying there is no hate out there. I am saying that its very very very far from widespread as you state. Certainly not among the Rosh Hayeshiva. I'll say the same forthe chasidesha velt. The only inch I’ll give you, which you didn’t mention, is anti Lubavitch.



    B)You may not have meant it. However, you based your opinion in the blog on the beard, pajama tie thing. You started with the Rosh Hayeshiva who didn’t like bearded bochurim, nothing against Chasidim just beards. You made the bridge between the two.

    You then wrote “protect these innocent youths from Chassidim or Chassidishe values”

    You then went on about “to assure that yiddishe kinder have no feeling for kedusha inyanim”

    You then wrote about “lives a life of kedusha-less rules”


    All this based on nothing but the Roshe Hayseshiva who did not like beards.

    I may as you say need to pay attention . I may be an idiot. However, either youre the Dishonest & disingenuous one or need to edit your writing.

    Cheers

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  19. Itche,

    I think we may actually be able to find some common ground after all...

    We disagree on how widespread it is, but that's a disagreement in degree, not metzius. I included Lubavitch as Chassidim, and to be sure, Chabad & Breslov get the focus of the hate (thanks to our good friend the Chazon Ish, I guess) more than the others - but the rest of the chassidishe velt is only more "tolerated" or "less-hated" than the big two; It's not like the Chassidishe world is beloved (maybe if I would daven less often with Litvishe minyanim I would agree with you).

    As to the connection between anti-beard and anti-chassidim, this was one possible idea that I proposed among others. But anyway, beards were one example - not the ONLY example. Hanhagos that Chassidim emphasize - beard, Mikva, gartelach, peyos, minhagim, etc - are all equally mocked in Litvishe circles, but you knew that already...

    And yes, the Litvishe bochorim that I knew, and yungeleit that I know, aren't too into "kedusha inyanim."

    BP,
    The leumas zeh of, "From the forest itself..."?

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  20. BP:

    I Think he means:

    "From the forest itself comes the handle for the axe."

    Only an ex-Chabadnik would run a mosad of rabid anti-Chabadniks.

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  21. "What is amusing is that Rebbetzin Heller, who is I believe there best known Mechaneches, was Mekuruv through, you guessed it, CHABAD."

    So what? If you went to a kindergarten connected with one group that means you can't outgrow it later and go to something better?

    It's funny to read how you guys are complaining about certain institutions. When Lubavitchers believe that there are Lubavitchers and not yet Lubavitchers. When they want all frum Jews to convert to Lubavitch. When they believe, in their hearts, that to be a complete Jew and a complete Chossid you must be a Lubavitcher and that everyone else is incomplete. When they are so aggressive in proselytizing and teaching that their way is THE way. So naturally, some people, over the years (though too few) have woken up, smelled the coffee, and realized the real ultimate Lubavitcher agenda and therefore taken steps against their propaganda machine, to protect their children, students and families.

    And then - surprise ! - all of a sudden Lubavitch cries that they are being discriminated against.

    Stop those crocodile tears. Your game has been exposed, you have been revealed, take it like a man and don't pretend that you did nothing to bring it about.

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  22. Mekishor sure has wide 'pleizos'
    Now he is calling the Chazon Ish his 'friend in a mocking way and blaming him for hate.
    Keep it up Mekushor.I guess since you never tasted the kasha of Taimchei Temimim you are trying to out do the Lubavitchers themselves, so you will be 'accepted'.
    One word for you:Feh!

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  23. One other 'small' point:Amongst your hate filled diatribe against Nevei that you must have copied straight out of The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion you mentioned that the 'primary sefer of significance should be CHAI ADAM' (YOU EVEN GOT THE NAME WRONG)a)This is total nonsense,I won't even argue you the point since your have shown yourself to be a total ignorant jerk,What I will ask is:And if they hold that the only 'sefer of significance' is Chayei Odom, are they any different than Chabad who hold the exact same about the Alter Rebbes Shulchon Oruch?
    You are so 'geveikt' in hate, you don't realize that your points are just your own projection.Abi dee host a boord.

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  24. VE HOO IKER "Sheyakdaish" Es Atzmo BShaas Tashmush: Tanya, is this Inunai Kedusha practiced in chabad ? or the way of chasidus as tought in Tanya is forgotten?

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  25. anon, nice to know that you do comprehend "etvos" of Tanya....

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  26. Borah Hashem for blogs. They give brain dead people like "snag" an arena to vent their hatred for other Jews.

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  27. anonymous

    my suggestion to you is to ask your friendly local Lubavitcher to be present B'sha'as Tashmish and see if they're Mekadesh themselves.....

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  28. Aussiecho
    Someone said you were a sonei yisroel for not mentioning on your blog the story about a yeshiva bochur from America who passed away from a freak wave.

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  29. Why are Lubavitchers allowed to call critiscm 'hate' while they do the exact same? Mekushors posts seem quite hateful to me.Of course I agree that some people hate Lubavitch, but in the exact same vein some Lubavitchers hate other Jews.Mekushor, btw, calling the Chazon Ish a 'friend' and blaming him for hate is unbelivably vile, why do no Lubavitchers have one word to say about it?

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  30. Bp
    Why are you, Mekisher,The Tzig all the great 'defenders' of Lubavitch?
    Are you trying to be 'accepted' or 'atone' for your big aveiro of going to a regular, normal yeshiva?
    Though you claim to have discovered chassidus, your tone and comments are generally vile and mocking of the non Lubab.That tells me that your 'conversion' has nothing to do with becoming more 'ehrlich' it has a lot to do with being accepted and part of a group.It goes with out saying that any intellectual discussion with your is fruitless, that for sure was not your reason for joining Chabad.I'm saying this based on a long experience with your posts despite your recent hiatus in posting.'A prosteh am hooretz' is what comes to mind .Go try for once and learn a shtikkel Lekutei Torah with chassidus mevueres, take this from someone who is not into chasidic thought usually.I've noticed that the few who have joined Lubavitch because of the depth HAVE NOT TIME TO THROW STONES AT THE WELL THEY DRANK FROM.

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  31. Few comments.

    These "roshey yeshivoys" who propagate shaving - aren't litvaks in a strict sense. They ignore their own authority (in different issues) - i.e. Chofetz Chaim who wrote a whole seyfer against such practice as shaving (especially for shiduchim or the like). These "roshey yeshivoys" just inherited some aspects of maskilim (either willingly, or unwillingly - now it doesn't matter). Which include - strong opposition to nistar and advocating of philosophy instead. Maskilish style in approach to clothing and etc. It doesn't mean that they are maskilim themselves, but they definitely didn't reject many aspects of "haskolo".

    By the way - for those who are interested, look the kuntreys "Zoken Yisroel Kihilchoso": http://shtetl.pcguy.org/Sforim/beard.pdf about many aspects of this subject.

    The fact, that litvishe high schools for girls teach something close to that chasidim are people from Mars with horns and tail is a sad fact. Also such can be said about Oyr Someach and the like. They like baaley tshuvo. But they don't like them to become chasidim.

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  32. For those who are unaware (shaving propagating litvaks strongly prefer to avoid mentioning it), Chofetz Chaims's seyfer against shaving is called "Tiferes Odom" and can be found in "Kol Kisvey Chofetz Chaim".

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  33. Also, I don't thing that Aish, or Oyr Someach don't like Lubavitch more than others. They just strongly don't like chasidus and especially the one, which can give deeper perspective even today (Breslov and Chabad therefore are the most disliked there).

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  34. I meant that Aish, or Oyr Someach don't like Lubavitch more than others because of personal hatred. Rather because of general opposition to pnimius in chasidic way.

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  35. der yid said :Pnimius , Deep in the chasidic way. whats so deep or penimiusdig in todays chasidim Aish or O.S. dont sell ? remember carlbach always talked about deep deep but he was not mekusher so lubaVitch stopped reconizing him as hasidik

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  36. Anonymous: You said yourself. Hiskashrus letzadikim.

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