The interview in Kfar Chabad Magazine. The question is what will it accomplish?
Is it too little too late? After all, what good will it accomplish if we continue to send our kids to the same Yeshivos and schools, daven in the same shuls, and live side by side? Then there are those that'll say that it's his fault since he was the leader in the years of '53 and '54, and that now he's trying to atone for his ways. Therefore, they say, there's no reason to take him seriously. Fools is what they are, and it's indifference like that that's killing us.
He's recently been saying what many of us have wanted blasted from the rooftops for years. The problem is that much of what he's saying has been said before, although maybe not as publicly nor as loudly. We want both ourselves to know how to think, and the world to know what we think, at least on the Moshiach issue. But speeches like these will have little affect on the nutjobs who continue to destroy Lubavitch at least on that front. These people, lead by their respective "Mashpi'im," will not be deterred by 57 years of dedication and service by Reb Yoel, or anybody else for that matter. They will continue to destroy Lubavitch in the name of truth and Rebbe, and we'll all be made to suffer for it.
Reb Yoel speaks of Achdus in action, but divisiveness in thought. Meaning, yes we need to have Achdus when it comes to living side by side, but we need to separate when it comes to Shitos. He doesn't advocate a rebuilding of the school system, at least in this article, so I'm not quite sure how that's going to happen. Where else would this education happen? And how will it happen if the message in school is the complete opposite? Unless he believes that whatever our kids learn in school has no bearing on them anyway, it's the parents or Shul Mashpia's responsibility. If that's the case why bother sending your kids to those schools? It remains to be seen if there'll be any reaction to this, or it'll just go by the wayside like all other Kinusim, Michtovim, and articles.
"Is it too little too late?"
ReplyDeleteDefinitely too little. Leave aside his understandable efforts at separating the "shitos" from the "shotim" (sorry, Basi LeGani is still reverberating in my mind) in the name of achdus. He fails to say, unequivocally, why the shitoh of the "shvillers" is wrong. Basically, he comes down to it is improper to say "shlita" or make a shvil...but the Rebbe is still alive(!). You cannot have it both ways. If 3 Tammuz of Nun-Dalet was a Sof Shel Adam then let's call it just that and say "Tzadik DeIspateir istakach...". Un G'Endig! Now, if you want to say that, nevertheless, the Rebbe's Nesius continues because "Ma Zar'o Bechaim..." that is acceptable (to me, anyways).
Okay, my sorrowfully underinformed rant is over.
1. The man has no credibility on any issue that pertains to anything practical, nor has he any clue about real-life-related. Would you ever dream of asking him an eitzoh as you would from a kluge mashpia? (Don’t answer this).
ReplyDelete2. He should be the very last person to point his accusing finger at the people that have simply taken his very extremist views and ran with them. Instead, he should be pointing at these nuts and proclaim, “Reu gedulim shegidalti!” In any normal place anyone that was so wrong on a major public policy issue, would be expected to stay out of policy-setting debates. Why not ba unz?
3. The substance of what he says in the interview is also very naive and childish. If you have people amongst you that are doing things that are 'worse than yevsektzia', what kind of crap is this about 'love them but not their shitteis'? How about 'purge the impurity from your machane' instead? How about an honest analysis of was has brought so many people to a state where they feel they have a license to explain with smug certainty the precise meaning of all of the Rebbe’s statements that seem to present any kind of difficulty or are not easily nitfos behavono vehasogo? What was it that empowered people to cast away any feeling of bittul or self-doubt when approaching the keidesh hokodoshim of the Rebbe’s Teiroh? What was it that has taken away people’s ability to live with contradictions without a compulsive and ugly need to have an ‘explanation’ for every difficulty?
4. Also, what is this weird talk that 'our job is leharbeis dem Rebben's koveid'? Really now? Who gave us this job? The Rebbe? Was it the same Rebbe that has started the aggressive messianic campaign of 1992-94? Or is this simply another 'brilliant' public campaign courtesy of Reb Yoel?
Sad, really. The world would be a much better place if people would stick to what they are good at. In case of Reb Yoel, another few volumes of seifer hoerchin chabad would be a much better contribution than all of his worthless opining over the last 57 years.
Berl,
ReplyDeleteI would say LOL, but it's too sad to L about.
I think that R' Yoel's latest statements fall into the “too little, too late” category anyway. I have no problem with R' Yeol speaking out, even if he aught to take some responsibility (clearly some of the origins of the current Meshichist phenomenon should be placed at R' Yoel's feet), but I don't think he's out of line to speak his mind. To me, the bigger issue is, where's the beef?
He says that it’s a bad thing and a warped idea. Fine. Very nice. Whoopdie-doo.
What is needed is a call to end the intolerable tolerance of the meshichist monster, and since that aint happenin, the entire thing is irrelevant.
The next time a well-meaning Peylishe Chossid asks me why Lubavitch didn't accept Reb Yoel as Rebbe I'll show him Berl's words and ask him if that's what people think of their next Rebbe. I'm quite surprised at Berl's comments, really, to me Reb Yoel Shteit hecher than the rest of us. At least his position should make him somewhat respectable. Whatever happened to the Rebbe's words Rosheichem Shivteichem?
ReplyDeleteRussians are a tough crowd.
Well, the Frierdiker Rebbe did say, "a Roumanisher hut chotsh emunas chachomin"
ReplyDeleteUn Hirshel, du bist a Rumainisher tzu an Ungarisher?
Never in a ton of years did I expect to hear such diatribe against a jewel in our generation. If none of the Lubavitchers here will do it, then I'll be the one to be Moycheh for Reb Yoel's Kovod. Then Lubavitchers wonder why they get no respect!
ReplyDeleteNisht kan trop Rumayinsher blut!
ReplyDeleteIch bin mechabeid Reb Yoel far (a chutz dem vos er is given dem Rebben's cheizer) zain harbotzas teiras hachassidus, far zain keiach hasborhoh shel teiras rabeinu, far zain yedioh in teiras hachasidus... etc, etc.
ReplyDeleteWhat's that got to do with the topic at hand? The 'tachshit hadeir (like any other human being) has to also know his own limitations. If a great heart surgeon will give you financial advice, you might be inclined to listen because he is a brilliant guy, after all. After you loose your shirt following his advice, you'd be a fool to listen again and he would be even a bigger fool to try dispensing financial advice again. But would that make him a lesser surgeon?
Hirshel, any one persons opinion about R' Yoel should has nothing to do with why R' Yoel shouldn't be memale makom the Rebbe. Really, Hirshel, thats teh lamest point you ever made here.
ReplyDeleteIf you disagree with something specific, let's have it.
Zezmir
ReplyDeleteCall me lame, will you? why I never!
Hirshel, if you read what I wrote you will see that I called that specific statement lame.
ReplyDeleteDo you disagree with Berl for any reason other than Reb Yoel is a chashuve Yid? Or is it just that you think think R Yoel takeh should be Rebbe?
People, please don't take this the wrong way, it's only an analogy:
ReplyDeleteReb Yoel flegt kochen in dem vi der moron fun Bnei Brak is nit kein baal heirooh (dos heist es kon zain az er ken lerenen afilu, ober er is nit kein meire heirooh af tzu farnemen zich mit greise halocho-lemaaseh zachen, ubifrat inyonim vos zainen neigeah tzu klal...)
Un ich zog - huh hadin lemar (beseider, mit a greiser chassidisher 'lehavdil')
Now that's the Berl we know and love!
ReplyDeleteZezmir
ReplyDeleteWhere in my words do you see me calling for the Hachtoroh of Reb Yoel? What is it about my words that people see it so totally wrong?
All I said was that we can see from statements like Berl's how far Reb Yoel is from even getting his due respect in Chabad. Peylisher Chassidim may consider him a Memaleh Mokom, but he lacks the first step, respect from the Oylem.
You aren’t listening well mi amigo -he IS respected... he's just not considered infallible.
ReplyDeleteHello? Hirshel? Are you paying attention? Where is it written that:
1. We care if some fool Polak thinks R' Yoel should be Rebbe?
2. That R' Yoel has no faults.
Now, I'll try one more time: What * s p e c i f i c a l l y * do you disagree with Berl about?
I disagree with the insipid idea of comparing Reb Yoel to a surgeon offering financial advice. He's quite within his realm of expertise when sharing his thoughts on Chassidus and Rebbe.
ReplyDeleteHirshel,
ReplyDeletePlease cut the 'respect' crap. Reb Yoel is treated with hadras koveid, but not on all issues; certainly not on this one. And why don't you instead address my specific objections?
And you don't like the 'doctor-analyst' moshol? OK. I got a better one. I would say that someone that has fathered a mamzer should probably shy away from giving public admonitions on the virtues of taharas hamishpocho. What say you?
"another few volumes of seifer hoerchin chabad would be a much better contribution than all of his worthless opining over the last 57 years. "
ReplyDeleteHear, hear. Case closed - when he finishes the job the Rebbe gave him we will discuss his hachtorah.
I see the Hiskashrus police are out in full force tonight. Let's all enlighten Reb Yoel and tell him what his REAL mission is....
ReplyDeleteBerl, God bless you!
ReplyDeleteI found the interview with R'Yoel to be rather disappointing.But then, he was never known to be mechadesh, but "only" to rehearse and explain the Rebbe's toireh.So, regarding your question what it will accomplish, I think nothing substantial, because R'Yoel refuses to walk the extra mile and say the obvious:It's not only the shittoh that's despicable, but also those who propagate and follow it.And as long as there will be no complete separation between us and them, Chabad will remain at its sorry state.But since this means splitting up families,friendships etc, this will most probably never happen.Unfortunately כי רחוק מנחם
ReplyDeleteBerl
ReplyDeleteYou outdid yourself there. the second analygy is even worse than the first one. How nmuch Tshuveh must RYK do before he's absolved of the sin of creating the Moshiach monster? Is retracting his previously held views and denouncing those that follow it not enough? Must he kill the "bastard child" with his bare hands?
did not read article, but i'm sure he only denounces writing/saying/thinking "shlita", not the saying/thinking that the rebbi is messiah. in which case most normal classic jews will not accept lubavitch any more than before
ReplyDeletesad :(
H - As a chossid you probably have learned a little of the Mitteler Rebbe's Derech Chaim. Un Derfar, mistama veist du, az mit richteger Tshuva un Tfilla he can be peil af'n meshichisten...
ReplyDeleteHirshel, yes! Yes! Yes! It's at the beginning of Hilchos Teshuva perek 4. Machti es horabim is big stuff!
ReplyDeleteBerl as usual is the big 'mocker'.Berl himself on the crappy mentalblog has never stated what his own opinion vis a vis the Rebbe as Moshiach etc.He mocks the 'yellows' but they are at least true to their beliefs and honest about them.
ReplyDeleteRe:R'Yoel:I'm no Lubavitcher but I do know R'Yoel and on a personal level, he is a ba'al middos, something even Berls mother would not be anble to say on him.
spoken like a true zhlob
ReplyDeleteRabbosai, I am an outsider to this discussion, but as a Yid I have a stake in it. I would like to ask a very serious question. I understand that the definition of a CHASID includes having a REBBE. If you are Lubavitch and are not messianic, please explain to me: who is your rebbe? Or do you have a different definition of CHASID? Thank you.
ReplyDeleteRabbi S,
ReplyDeleteWhat does one thing have to do with the other? I'm confused. Is there something I'm missing here?
I am a not a meshichist, not even remotely, but I can still consider the Rebbe my Rebbe.
rseinfeld, how do you understand breslover chasidim?
ReplyDeleterabbi seinfeld (although seinfeld is veit fun a rabbi): Our Rebbe is the Lubavitcher Rebbe Zacher Tzadik VeKodosh Livrocho Lechaye HaOlam Habo Nishmaso Beginzei Meromim Zechuso Yagen Aleinu.
ReplyDeleteIronically, Chabad can function without a living (B'Alma Dein) Rebbe in a way that other kreizn couldn't.
ReplyDeleteBecause Chabad is essentially "learning Chassidus" centered, it's possible to continue that. The Chagas-ers are Tzaddik-Rebbe centered, so they need the Rebbe, even if he's nothing so special.
You might think that Chabad is more Rebbe-centered than any of the others. In a way, that has been true for the past 25 years or so. But he's the center in a different way.
Are you saying that Lubavitch has, since the Rebbe's petira, been transformed from Tzaddik-centered to decentralized Breslower-type Chassidus? If so, is this intentional or de-facto due to the lack of a living rebbe? What is preventing the chachmei Lubavitch from electing a new rebbe? Wouldn't this action help mend the rift (not to mention the other benefits)? (sorry, that's a lot of Qs at once)
ReplyDeleteIt is still Tzaddik centered, as the Rebbe described how to do this in the first year of his leadership.
ReplyDeleteSeinfeld
ReplyDeleteBreslov isn't all about a Rebbe who's no longer alive you know. They do have an extensive Torah and derech. So why compare it to Breslov?
I didn't compare to Breslow, I was replying to "anonymous". I'm just trying to understand the Chabad definition of chasidus. I'm not in any way diminishing anyone's Torah or avodah. I'd understood that chassidus is defined in part as tzadik-centered. How does one live this way without a tzadik to turn to for personal guidance?
ReplyDeleteI'm rethinking my reply to Hirshel Tzig. Why not compare Lubavitch to Breslaw?
ReplyDeleteRabbi, the old fashioned Rebbe-Chossid personal relationship hasnt been around for decades.
ReplyDeleteLubavitch, and all chassidusn, are more of a derech in Avoda as delineated by the Rebbeim and seforim of each chassidus.
Chassidusin are kehilos with the specific flavor and values/priorities of the specific chassidus.
That makes sense, but do you mean that until the rebbe's patira he did not have this role for Lubavitch?
ReplyDeleteThis may sound weird, but I believe that the Rebbe had this in mind after תש"י. He said that Di Shver Vet Vaiter Fihren but accepted the Nesius after much pleading. Since Chabad is not Rebbe-centric it would not matter if there was an actual Rebbe now. As far as going to the Rebbe for personal guidance: The Rebbe answered questions immediately, and would always say that he Fregt Baim Shver, which continued for the next 40-odd years.
ReplyDeleteAnon, your point is very valid.
ReplyDeleteRabbi, there was very, very, minimal personal relationship between the Rebbe and the vast majority of the Chassidim. Rather, there was a general relationship based mostly on public gatherings and the like.
"How does one live this way without a tzadik to turn to for personal guidance?"
ReplyDeleteA) By turning to the guidance that he provided for over 40 years.
B) By turning to those who were closest to him for advice.
C) The Rebbe himself said to ask, "and the Rebbe will find a way to reply."
The proposal that somehow we elect a new Rebbe is not an option - there are no candididates, and it's not the way it works.
ReplyDeleteNow, if there was a great tzaddik and chocham that the Rebbe had groomed as a successor then there would have been another Rebbe.
Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Therefore, there will be no more nesiei Chabad, and the chassidus will go on in not all that unlike the Breslover model. End of story.
The Rebbe clearly stated ONE answer as to where to go for guidence: Aseh lecha rav - go speak with your mashpia.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Seinfeld: Your questions are very valid. If you compare Breslov and Lubavitch today, you can definetely see similarity that there is no alive rebe, even though after the passing they still considered to be the present rebe for chasidim.
ReplyDeleteHowever, there is a significant difference. (At least as I understand, and those Lubavitcher who know better can correct what I say). In Breslov while there was no new Rebe since the Rebe ztz"l, there were (and are) those who received the inner mesoyro. I've heared somewhere, that this kind of tradition is called in Chabad "chinuch pnimi". It seems that today in Chabad itself it is unfortunately lost. (Please correct me if it's wrong). But in Breslov, the Rebe explicitly transferred these kind of traditions to his selected talmidim, and they were passed until today to key people in Breslov.
Hmmm, your responses, as usual, make no sense
ReplyDeletejonty, whoever you are, thank you for the compliment.
ReplyDeleteto Everybody in here,
ReplyDeleteyou got to be really ignorant of chasidic insights, to think that a chasidic court for instance like Belz,Square has a Rebbe, we can call them Roshei Kehilo, or Fund raisers, etc.. I hope I am not offending nobody.
I don't get why the Lubavitchers are so sanguine about not having a new Rebbe.Let's not kid ourselves:Using an I gros Kodesh is a pretty lame excuse for a REAL rebbe.
ReplyDeleteBtw, no need to call other rebbes deprecating names
Using Igros Kodesh is meaningless and has not been mentioned here as a replacement.
ReplyDeleteWe aren't sanguine, help us bring Moshiach and have our Rebbe back.
Why can't anybody come up with a mature convincing reason why no attempt at appointing a new rebbe has not been made.Please don't rehash the old immature arguments such as 'we have a Rebbe' there is nobody to fill his shoes' etc
ReplyDeleteR' Y,
ReplyDeleteYou must be the new idiot on the block... where did anyone speak of "using an Igros Kodesh" here at all?
> I don't get why the Lubavitchers
ReplyDelete> are so sanguine about not having a
> new Rebbe.
Very simple. Find anyone who will be suitable. The risk is - you won't find him. When Reb Noson refused to become the next Breslover Rebe, there were no other candidates.
The main reason not to annoint a new:
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe stated in his first Sicha (mission statement)in 1951 - that our generation is the 7th generation of Chabad and this will be the last generation. This will be the generation that will greet Moshiach. Henceforth, the Rebbe emphatically declared that thier can not be an 8th Rebbe (Hence no new Rebbe)
"there is nobody to fill his shoes"
ReplyDeleteIs there someone to fill his shoes that you can identify for us, please?
Anonymous: Such kind of reasoning is handicapped.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteOf course you know there are more than 7 Rebbes anyway, but you knew that.
Yisroelik - When I said 7 Rebbes - that is counting the Lubavitch succession from the Alter Rebbe to the Rebbe.
ReplyDeleteA Yid said - Why handicapped - I would think it shows a firm and steadfast strength in ones connection to their heritage and Chasidic roots.
Yisroelik - When I said 7 Rebbes - that is counting the Lubavitch succession from the Alter Rebbe to the Rebbe.
ReplyDeleteA Yid said - Why handicapped - I would think it shows a firm and steadfast strength in ones connection to their heritage and Chasidic roots.
Anon: Right, thats w/o counting the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid or R M"M of Horodok/Vitebesk (all of whom are part of the Lubavitch shalsheles).
ReplyDeleteYiftach bediro kiShmuel bedoro.Lubavitchers, am I misquoting?
ReplyDeleteYou need a leader.Any leader.Don't try be smarter than Chazal.
yisroelik, they are part of shalsheles Chasidus Haklolis, not specifically Lubavitch.
ReplyDeleteshmilu, will you take the post?
ReplyDeleteOr have you not noticed that Yiftach was anointed by Hashem through Nevuah?
And the Rebbe was annointed through nevuah??
ReplyDeleteThe point is every generation needs a Live leader and so does any chasidus, despite the stuff you were brainwashed with
Yes, the Rebbe was accepted by the Chasidim (including the Rashag, his brother in law) because it was noticeable that Ruach Hashem Diber Bo Umilaso al Leshono. We call it Ruach Hakodesh, not Nevuah. The Rashag's statement was that he would go the Ohel of the FR and nothing happens, and the Rebbe would go and come back with a long list of answers.
ReplyDeleteMethinks the person who can only repeat his point again and again without any proof or relevance is brainwashed.
Hmmm
ReplyDeleteYou are really a silly chaider yingel.Your proofs statements are the product of a feeblemind and an agressive brainwashing system
Shmilu
ReplyDeletelet's see what's more of a "brainwash," believeing that a Tzaddik has Ruach HaKodesh, or that by wearing your hat backwards, with the ribbon on the right side, you connect to G-d?
shmilu - are you Shamu the Whale undercover?
ReplyDelete