An anonymous comment to What I'm supposed to believe
(Edited for clarity)
"They said the same things about R. Simche Binem of Pshis'che, who also went into the secular world of Germany, in fact to very intersting places there. He knew a lot of languages, medicine etc. Un men hot ihm baredt azoi vie dem heiliken Libavitcher Rebben, until much later they caught on to his unbelievable avoidas hakoidesh in avoidas habirurim and kiruv rechoikim. So there's nothing new under the sun. The gadlus of certain kedoishey elyoin is far beyond the comprehension of little minds, with tzimtzum hamoichin, especially in the so-called "frime velt." Baal Shem Tov, Pshis'cher, Libavitcher - leis machshuve tfisse bohem klal uklal. Let the dogs bark, as R. Akiva said to Rashbi: dayoch she'ani u'boracho yod'im koy'chacho!"
The best words yet, and seemingly Davke Nisht fun a Lubavitcher!
A very good summary of this topic.
ReplyDeleteIt is common knowledge that "little" people will try to diminish the achievements of the great in order to make themselves feel "bigger". Despite what history reveals of his earlier years, the actions and words of the Rebbe speak louder than any journalist or historian can.
Nice little preach to the Lubab choir, Kangaroo.
ReplyDeleteYou are right about how 'loud' the actions are, a brand new Shabtai Zvi movement
Yes, Korach. (See how we can trade insults so nicely? If only everyone could get together peacefully like this!)
ReplyDeleteDear tzig
ReplyDeleteA constant theme of your blog is a concern about the misnagdic worlds opinion about Chabad. I hate to say it, but who cares?
I dont belive that we have no responsbility towards them, but practiclly all the people attacking Lubavitch are either: 1)totaly ignorant about Chabad - Like the Jews have horns sort of people (usally a big yesh to boot - dont confuse me with facts sort of guy) 2) Lubavitch helped them, 3) a lubavitcher upset them. 4) meshuchodim, either making money of theyre opposition or commited themselves idelogically to it 5)tinokoys shenishbu, students or talmidim of one of the above
When it comes to people that attack the Rebbe, Ignorance is the highest name of the game.
Iz vos vaerst do azoi nispoel un tzukratzet.
A shliach
[I've put this here - as people can't be exerted enough to scroll down to old posts - besides that it's meinyan linyan..]
ReplyDeleteRegarding Friedman, he reminds me of Erlich's inaccuracies - e.g. "The Rebbe's sec., Rabbi Yaakov Klein" (continuously throughout), etc.-
Same here, the Rebbe those years wrote the Reshimos, and worked on the Hatomim [-as has been concretely documented in the Early Years series by JEM, besides being known before from the FR's letters, etc.]. In addition to much correspondance with the Rogatchover Gaon and others, as well as acting "ba-koach" for the Frierdiker Rebbe on many an occasion.
Yet, Friedman just ignores this all; one case in point (in the Haaretz article) - that in "Chabad lore" - there is no mention of the France and Berlin, just skipping from Russia to Riga. Ver zogt dos, falsher?!
Her oif shoyn ploideren!
Histapakti bazeh m'fas kotzer haYeriya (vehasovlonus), v'dal.
Another post on the same topic? uh boy.
ReplyDeleteI really don't understand the issue here. There are people that for whatever reason don't like Chabad. Nu? That's the real world - anyone who does anything will have detractors. Big deal.
Does anyone maintain that the years prior to the nesius are embarrasing to the Lubavitch? How so exactly?
The information we had until not all that long ago was sketchy and full of inacuracies. Now we know much more, and many inacuracies have been disproven - so? Is there anything embarasing about that? All it proved is that the organization of Lubavitch was poor and maintained an old world attitude about information (not shared) and structure (poor at best).
Is there something here that you find so terrible? What exactly is it that has you worked up? I just dont get it.
Hirshel, you're so Hungarian (and so are they). Why are you so busy with geluyim?
ReplyDeleteA Rebbe is a Rebbe - backround education, gadlus in lernen, meifsim, people skills, speaking ability, nevuah, etc, are not relevent, veil nit tzuleib dem iz er a Rebbe. farkert, di ale zachin zenen bichlal nit di cheshbon.
Meishe Rabbeinu had a messed up backround, couldnt speak well, had problems getting peoples support, etc. Dovid halech had a questionable Yichus and spent his younger years as a shepherd out in the field instead of kvetching benk in yeshiva - bichlal these follish issues of what qulaifies someone to be a "gadol" only come from simple-mided Hunkies ukedeime, V'da"l.
Aussie
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't worry about the anonymous Sabbatheans that post here. They're obsessed with Christianity and Shabtai Zvi for some reason. It must be all that "Torah LiShmoh" they learn.
As far as ignoring all the hate: I'm surprised that this is coming from a Shliach who presumably deals with people for a living. One would think that he would like people to have a good opinion of him and his superiors, no? The fact that much of this hate comes from so-called "objective historians" doesn't help your image, especially if they make you out to be a bunch of cover-up artists.
Zez,
ReplyDeletehttp://berlyomi.blogspot.com/2006/06/my-rebbe-is.html
Why go only to Libavitcher, Pshischer and the Besht. Chazal tell us that Moishe Rabaini was accused of murder, theft and adultery by yidden!
ReplyDeleteHow come? The gemoro says of a certain bird "oimedes bebovel veroieh nevaileh be-erets Yisroel": Mesritsher maggid interprets: the tsadik is called erets Yisroeil and he has a neshomoh klolis tha includes every yid. Thus the one standing in Bovel (loshoin bilbul), when looking at the tzadik he sees but his own part in the tzadik (his own nevaileh), and therefore accuses the tzadik of everything he is himself. He is looking into a mirror (as the heiliker Besht says in general, quoting the mishnah - kol negoim odom roieh chitz (all the defects you see in another), minigei atmoi, they are but a mirror-reflection of yourself. (Same idea as kol hapoissel bemumoi poissel). So all these people (be they rabonim, roshei yeshives, or stam balei batim) who accuse the tzadikim like the Besht, Pshischer or Libavitcher, are not telling us anything about these tzadikim (they wouldn't even know how to recognize them or deal with them, being way out of their league), but telling us everything about who they are themselves!
If not for the fact that Chabad has controversies that are current, I think it would be as obvious to all as it is to me that the Rebbe was living a nistar-dike life for those 12 years between 1929-41.
ReplyDeleteWho spends 12 years getting a degree? If he had been stam an off-the-derech type, he wouldn't have wasted so much time. He wouldn't have been mailing the Rashab's manuscripts back and forth. He wouldn't have made such a point to live a shomer shabbos life so far away from the yishuv. (And the college records are there that he was a shomer shabbos.)
It seems clear from some historically honest chassidim I spoken to that the Rebbe stayed away from the family in Warsaw because of tension that eventually erupted later in 1950 and then again in 1985-6.
Another morsel for Friedman u'pamalya dilei, who claim there are no records of the Rebbe at the Sorbonne:
ReplyDelete[I've heard from a shliach vosik there]: When Chabad in France went to find the Rebbe's records in the Sorbonne (this may have been in the late '70s, I'm not certain), there had been a recent student strike, and they'd burned a large part of the campus, where the records had been kept. Those records (from the '3os) had as of yet not been recorded into computer databases of any sort. Unfortunately, Chabad were incapable of getting anything.
[As well - re the Brooklyn Navy Yard, Q's- Eliezer Z. has interviewed several (incl. goyim) who remember the Rebbe there; one or two were on the weekly 'Encounter with the Rebbe' by JEM].
*
Me'inyan L'inyan:
2 years ago, being in Paris, I visited one of the hotels where the Rebbe had stayed - Edourde VII, on Ave. de la Opera (in the Opera district; there are several Igros written on that stationary).
Upon Asking the manager re records from the '30s - he said none of those records had been saved.
As well, he'd said, in recent years, the hotel had a facelift- which went 100 rooms into 60, to be more spacious, etc. As well, the small corridors in rooms themselves (=two sets of doors to rooms), had been obliterated fro more space.
[There's a mayseh from Paris -IIRC in this hotel- that R' Bentche Shemtov (IIRC) once knocked at the Rebbe's apt., and could hear muffled, the Rebbe davening in tears. Because of the two sets of doors, the Rebbe came out after a minute or two, composed. The chosid then realized why the Rebbe had chosen such a room, so visitors wouldn't realize this..]
He also said, the only things which are still intact from that era approx., was the golden clock above the elevator, and the golden mirror in the lobby.
An interesting observation I'd made in the lobby there, were the glass-encased "tchatchkes" displayed on the wall: Several look like small tarnished Kiddush bechers (without any Jewish inscriptions necessarily).The manager had no answer for that. Who knows..?
*
I rest these few cases which lend a bit more accurate chomer for the blind/brainwashed or those who at least wish to be led so..
L'hoir, re SSD v'chol haKat hanal:
ReplyDeleteAtlas has an old post (2 years ago), with Rigg. In the comments there- it is brought out well enough (by Rigg as well) that the Liozner (as well as others) has facts distorted to the point, that one must read his teyres skeptically as well..
Just goes to show, efsher m'ken zogen (in these matters): Hakol b'chezkas p'sulim, and MAYBE, just maybe - is there some truth hidden beneath their surface, ladon l'kof zechus..
By some, their tales must fit their agendas. Others - nisht kein barei samcha sei vi. Still others -it's not always showing the full picture, even if their vort is barah k'shemesh to all.
[oichet, Ayin Mondshein ].
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI don't mamesh take farshtei what you're talking about. Efsher you can be me'maet in di loshon kodesh/Lubavitcher shprach?
Mamesh Takeh Farshtei
ReplyDeleteIn dealing with 'real' people, including misnagdic style types, I have discovered the following:
ReplyDeleteAction, or 'or -light' is a lot more powerful then many words.
I have seen countless people changing they’re opinion about Chabad, not from losing an argument, but from seeing the positive
There are times when we need to defend, as the rebbe sometimes answered taynois by farbrengen, however, only if the person was honestly looking for the truth.
Most of the people u are defending against are a far cry from honest.
Even haboichon, used it countless times to great effect; U have tayna A B and C against Chabad, if I answer them, will u now accept chabad - the answer has almost always been; well ..... I'll find more.
It’s almost never a reason but an excuse.
And secondly, the ultimate way of dealing with negativity - is ignoring it. It gets people really nervous.
A shliach
(Who enjoys ur blog but doesn’t think u should get so tzukratzt)
Mr. Rigg does show in his book how the animosity in the family between the men was strong even in 1940, and presumably from 1929 on. If that was the reason the Rebbe stayed away I do not know, but it would make sense.
ReplyDelete>>And secondly, the ultimate way of dealing with negativity - is ignoring it. It gets people really nervous.
ReplyDelete>>A shliach
Mr. Shliach you may be right some times, and certainly not right all the times.
Germany, Russia and societies of THAT sort ignore criticism. They look with contempt at people who would dare criticize and question their decisions. They ignore and squash crticism. The results are exactly what Russia, Cuba and all such similar societies have become.
America works because it is based on the respect for each individual as a worthy member of a larger unit with a right to express their "criticism' and be taken seriously.
Everyone trusted the Rebbe as a fair person, a listening ear and a reasonable individual.
almost no one trusts the current leadership of Chabad , if for no other reason but their bulldozing attitude of ignoring other dissenting opinions. Ignoring criticism, a lack of desire on their part to ever make peace and work with everyone has lead to our current spiraling our of control pirud halevovois.
Human beings can not be corralled like animals. With the Rebbe, his following was berotzoin, current leadership have compromised their right to this respect by their destructive actions.
In Your Chabad House if you totally ignored negativity and criticism I doubt you would remain very long wherever you are.
another Shliach
anon shliach, I am sure you have never taken a public position in your community, and that you advised the Rebbe to make no public comment on Mihu Yehudi, Shleimus Haaretz, Maran Shach, Satmar bloodying Lubavitchers, Lubavitchers trying to return the favor, etc.
ReplyDeleteI am sure you wrote what you wrote sincerely, but you write out of ignorance.
I think Lubavitch may be suffering from something far worse than bad leaders, it's moronic Shluchim. They're the one that make decisions every day "on the front lines," and judging from comments by Shluchim here there may be a need for a better filtration process. We may need to see who's heading out on Shlichus, because we cannot afford to be represented by morons.
ReplyDeleteHmmm,
ReplyDeleteI'm a lurking shaliach here and your pose as 'madbarno de'umso' is finally msaking me post.
You have two shlichim with experience debating here, why are you always jumping in with your comments that are pasig for a young bochur?You speak about events that happened way before you were born and boruch Hashem are behind us, why do want to awake old machloikesse'n, just because the mashpia you have is poisoning your views?
You do a disservice to all Lubavitchers.You are young still and can still learn...
Noch a shliach
ReplyDeletehow would you know what age hmmm is? Why make such assumptions?
"madbarno deumso"?! You guys make me laugh. I post as no one, and for no one, but myself.
ReplyDeleteYou all make a critical mistake here: Everyone here is anonymous. Even if you posted with a real name, you could be someone else using that name. So noch a shliach, anonymous shliach, and shliach shliach could be either a snag eating chicken at kosher delight or a head shliach who for some reason has no debt. (Would that be only Berel Shemtov? He doesn't speak English.)
So it makes no difference if you pose as a Shliach, or if I pose as no one (which I do - even Tzig has spoken more of himself): I make no difference. You make no difference. Tzig makes no difference. Only the words posted here make a difference. Stick to the topic, and you make some sense. Stick to identity pushing, and you forget that you are on the internet.
So now, let me ask you on topic: Why have you only been lurking? Are you of the people who like to have something to complain about over your chicken? Was it entertaining to you? Are you just a chicken yourself?